Let's make subpar units much better together

samthedigital · October 22, 2019

Quote

The joke here is that CQ is split into maps that are effectively casual in terms of "consistant clears" with little variance due to units used and maps that are simply "free" in terms of turncount and consistency.

Yeah no, this is not true at all unless you're going to claim that every player clears the game in less than 100 turns every time. That's just ridiculous.

Quote

In terms of this Mozu and Xander are functionally identical. They're both net neutral units. (Level 1 bowzu orko's pegs in 10. Nobody trains in her join, kinda like how Xander does one significant thing by running right in his join map and punching an archer.

If you're going to do pure LTC then Mozu doesn't join and Xander can contribute. If you do then Xander is still a net positive even if he doesn't save turns; not all good units do.

mangasdeouf · October 22, 2019

@samthedigital I think you misunderstood, playing efficiently does not mean LTC. It's just not wasting turns to do unneeded stuff, and using the units best fit to each thing. Why would Mozu be in play? Because she's better than her competition as an archer and she is a "delete button". She takes some level ups to become efficient, sure. But what does Silas do with 1 or 2 more level ups? Does he ORKO stuff he doesn't ORKO 1 or 2 levels lower because he's just 1 damage or 1 speed away or doubling? If you're not playing normal difficulty, he won't double anything without heavy favoritism (like a +4 spd pair up and a tonic, maybe even a speedwings cuz he's not fast at all with 8 base speed at level 6, indeed, his speed is similar to Takumi's (or even worse since he needs 6 level ups to reach 11, which means lv 11 he's got 10 speed following averages, which is even worse than Takumi who's already a slowpoke).

Talking about EP units able to ORKO in ennemy phase? Let's see, Azama can take several ennemies but he tends to be too slow to double them on average, so he needs an onmyoji pair up to hope to kill them with a bolt naginata. This requires you to promote anyone into onmyoji. Ryoma does it at base. Other than them, Kagero is too squishy, Kaze is too weak and squishy, Saizo might be lagging behing offensively, either due to shuriken having garbage base damage (+2 iron has 8 MT, which is still 1 less MT than a base iron yumi, 5 MT from a +2 iron yumi). I don't think anyone else can ORKO unless they OHKO (at this I only see Azama and Scarlet being able to OHKO with throwing weapons and no more than an archer/lance fighter pair up) on 1-2 weapons in EP.

Add that 1-2 weapons tend to lack accuracy and their wielders generally have low skill (Oboro, Silas have low skill, Silas mostly due to his class having only 10% but also due to him being average to mediocre at everything, he'd be god in GBA FE but it's not a GBA FE and ennemies have actual def, more HP than your units in the same class whoever we're talking about, except Ryoma/Xander's daddy's girl biased bases from IS, Azama has no more than average skill, Scarlet might be a little igher than average but using axes/clubs as her main weapon doesn't help her...) and can't double, your only half reliable EP killer is...Saizo, if he procs speed 4x in a row and uses a pair up that gives speed and strength...wait, there's no berserker in this game, too bad no one can help Saizo and he needs an archer/lance fighter in guard stance with tonics to match some of the spd thresholds, too bad for him he's slower than Hinata for half of the game.

Please explain how you want anyone not heir to the throne (so anyone but Xander/Ryoma) to do Seth's job in Fates. It's not like ennemies are nice enough to come with 20 HP and 4 def for 10 chapters. They come with 21-30 HP and 6-11 or so def as soon as chapter 8, I don't remember the exact stats but it's not far from that, and it's only in hard since I only played lunatic once and stopped right after chapter 8, at least 2 years ago. They also have a minimum of 7 speed, maybe more (I think the oni who are the slowest have 9 spd, don't they?). No one except Subaki and Hinoka who deal little damage can double the oni, if Corrin doesn't have enough speed. Kaze could damage them with a Rinkah pair up, you're still better off spamming dragon stone and archer Mozu since magic and yumi are the heaviest hitters at this point. And it only get worse little time after Ryoma comes, when the ennemy generals made my eyeballs jump out of their holes. They have so much damage and def as well as Xander level HP, you just want to not fight them. But if I remember and use IS logic, they should be placed so that you can hardly skip them if you want to open the chests, and Generals tend to use javelins a lot in Fates even in hard difficulty.

TL;DR: excluding Ryoma/Xander, very few units, if any, can reliably ORKO ennemies in EP, appart from squishy thieves/mages, and the ones who can generally don't want to let one or the other attack them first, since Scarlet doesn't like to take a 20+ magic damage attack or a 20+ damage bow attack, no physical unit with 1-2 range except Kagero/Kaze like to eat a magic hit, and the ones who can eat a magic hit and kill the guilt don't want to take a physical hit. In the end, EP is mostly the time you use to weaken ennemies to kill them in PP. Thus this game is heavily PP oriented, which mean it needs PP killers. Archers are exactly that, and Mozu is the most effeicient archer, and the only one being good to excellent for the whole game. Mages are bad, hybrids are not awesome either (Saizo and Azama are correct at best at hybrid damage). That's why Mozu is your best bet for a delete button that helps clearing waves of ennemies by reliably deleting her target without anyone's help.

samthedigital · October 22, 2019

Holy crap that's a huge wall of text dude. Just watch an LTC or something. You'll see a lot of EP action. You can do it more consistently with better units too if you choose to go through a few paralogues.

joshcja · October 22, 2019

5 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Yeah no, this is not true at all unless you're going to claim that every player clears the game in less than 100 turns every time. That's just ridiculous.

If you're going to do pure LTC then Mozu doesn't join and Xander can contribute. If you do then Xander is still a net positive even if he doesn't save turns; not all good units do.

P1 and even FD1 are included in many versions of the fates LTC. There are a loooot of versions.

-----------

Sub 100 is LTC not efficiency play. There is no set cutoff for where exactly the line between the two is but I hate to break it to ya... sub 20% CoS rates are not remotely efficent.

(Listed example from memory: Camilia in ch17 has 55% + 25% to clear at sub100 exp. That's 14% on the 2 turn.)

Edited October 22, 2019 by joshcja

samthedigital · October 22, 2019

Quote

Sub 100 is LTC not efficiency play. There is no set cutoff for where exactly the line between the two is but I hate to break it to ya... sub 20% CoS rates are not remotely efficent.

It depends on how quickly you can get that 20% clear; CoS is not directly correlated with the most efficient strategy. An average playthrough is going to be able to hit higher chances of success with more time to get level ups in any case. Otherwise what's your point? The more time we spend on PP the less individual units actually matter, and I've said this before.

joshcja · October 22, 2019

9 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

It depends on how quickly you can get that 20% clear; CoS is not directly correlated with the most efficient strategy. An average playthrough is going to be able to hit higher chances of success with more time to get level ups in any case. Otherwise what's your point? The more time we spend on PP the less individual units actually matter, and I've said this before.

Real time efficiency is an entirely different category.

It's also just called walking a rigged VLaD sorc through the game.

My point is that you should probably set the goalposts down. This ain't the pong forum.

(The joke here is that's literally the casual strat)

Edited October 22, 2019 by joshcja

samthedigital · October 22, 2019

Quote

Real time efficiency is an entirely different category.

Efficient play is literally trying to beat the game as quickly as possible consistently. What else would it be?

joshcja · October 22, 2019

6 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Efficient play is literally trying to beat the game as quickly as possible consistently. What else would it be?

Beating the game in the lowest turns at the highest CoS possible.

Basically it's a replicable TC run with minimized resets.

Edited October 22, 2019 by joshcja

De Geso · October 22, 2019

7 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Efficient play is literally trying to beat the game as quickly as possible consistently. What else would it be?

Using the most of all of your resources in a reasonably quick amount of time while accounting for real life time and high chance of success. Realistically, you could call finishing a chapter with all your units at 1 HP the "most efficient" way to clear that chapter because hit points are a resource and you used all of that resource.

"Efficient" play in Fire Emblem is a very nebulous term that just about anyone can redefine to prove they aren't a casual, they swear.

samthedigital · October 22, 2019

Quote

Beating the game in the lowest turns at the highest CoS possible.

That's just redundant.

joshcja · October 22, 2019

18 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

That's just redundant.

Yeah it's poorly defined by nature.

mangasdeouf · October 22, 2019

On 10/22/2019 at 1:54 AM, Shadow Mir said:

That's funny, considering it's coming from you - you love posting huge walls of text that end up burying your points underneath the rubble that is irrelevant nonsense. I prefer to just get to the goddamn point.

I prove my points, I argument, you just deny everything without giving any data, see the difference? It's like Gretta Thunberg speaking and Trump denying everything while putting in some fake news to discredit the opposite point of view without giving any proof of the truth of this fake news, or European pseudo-populists who talk a lot, say they will do this or that, put in some fake news to make people dislike the opponents more and begin to like them, and having absolutely no program, nothing to base their lies on, just talking nonsense and not even use logic.

See why I cry favoritism? No one in their right mind would see this as legitimate unless they were a Mozu fanboy (and besides, I could also argue boss abuse as legitimate if this was). Besides, I VERY highly doubt that by the time you complete chapter 7, everyone else would be so high a level that they're not getting much experience from the Faceless, EXCEPT in Revelation, and even there, I'd wait because the next chapter also practically mandates heavy use of Corrin, to say nothing of only having 4 unit slots. Adding Mozu isn't going to help my chances there, considering that she can't take hits well. Anyway, focusing only on the long term is short sighted, because you must get through the earlygame before the midgame and lategame are relevant. It's why I'd choose Bulbasaur in the Gen 1 games over Charmander - even if Charizard is better in the long run (which I'm not sure it is), Bulbasaur and its evolution line do well against most major opponents (the only poor matchups it has are Sabrina and Blaine), as opposed to Charmander being weak against Misty and not having good matchups against most other gym leaders.

By the time I complete chapter 7, my ubaki is lv 6/7, Hana is usally barely used at all, Rinkah is used only if I bring her further or as a backpack if I use a physical unit in this chapter that needs def and strength more than speed, Corrin is level 11 or 12, Kaze might not even be used except for chest hunting. Get through the earlygame? Well, if I bench Hana I have a spot for Mozu, and since Hana is trash for chapter 8 BR anyway, might as well benefit from utraining my archer who will absolutely outclass every other 2 range attacker in no time. The things with growth units (especially true with Mozu who has access to a class in which she's usable and doesn't take counter damage on top of having the highest damage output in the game after berserkers) is that they grow better than the others. Why do you mention her ability to tank hits again? Do you circlejerk all the time to make me mad? An archer rarely takes damage if you use your grey cells to position it.

Bulbasaur has no grass type move before lv 12 or 13 in g1, which means he's the worst starter. Squirtle has bubble from level 8, which already OS Digglet and 2S Sandshrew in the 1st gym if he's level 12, and Squirtle OS Geodude and nearly OS Onyx when facing Brock with a lv 13-14 Squirtle, and lv 15 he learns water gun which carries him through the 1st gym (only OS with it) and the Mt Moon before he learns bite at lv 24 which makes the 2nd arena a joke, then he only has to tank 1 thunderbolt to reck Raichu in the 3rd gym, and by the time you reach the 4th gym, you've by far evolved a flying type (even before since the route to Leo (the one whose name is the pokémon boxes name) has several grass types and Bulbazaur is your rival's starter). Bulbazaur has the worst figthing moveset and is only useful as a staller in gen 1 (his best leanrt move is...razor leaf! Even if he learnt solar beam it'd take 2 turns to use while razo leaf at least crits often). Not the best exemple of an early carry, since most early pokémon are bug, poison, flying, normal and a combination of bug/poison and poison/flying (Zubat dealt 4x damage with leech life in g1, could as well say he 4 shot Ivysaur without even using confusion, and Ivysaur still has only tackle to hit it with). Squirtle is the best starter on top of having the best non psychic type in g1 and a good learnset (+ surf +ice beam). If you want to take an example that is not relied to Fire Emblem, at least try not to be wrong.

Once again, I seriously doubt you'll have everyone you're using so high level that they're getting next to no experience from the Faceless in her paralogue by the time you complete chapter 7, outside of Revelation, where it would be foolish to do her paralogue immediately anyway. And I must take issue with you speaking as though she's entitled to most of the kills in her paralogue when she does next to no damage to them.

Silas gains little to nothing useful by gaining 1 or 2 levels more than he gains by clearing the eastern part of the map. He won't help more with one level more than with one level lower. His tanking doesn't improve enough, his speed will stay irrelevant, there's no point in raising him outside getting his girl and I don't like her either (she looses the only good point her father has, which is being able to take 1 or 2 hits without dying, as she's as if not more frail than Mozu and sadly there's no good def mom in the whole game except Beruka who screws any fast kid by birthing them, and Rinkah who offers shitty offence). I can use Rinkah already as a sandbag and if she goes Blacksmith she has more skill than Silas, more speed and probably more def too from her 15-16 levels as an oni savage with 65% def growth. She doesn't hit like a truck, but at least she can hope to crit without a dedicated killer weapon since clubs have innate crit, and she can even go ninja to get locktouch (now you have a tank who can open chests, utility on top of combat) and poison strike, and guess what, she can do it without any support while Silas needs 6 chapters/maps to do so with Kaze. With fiery blood + poison strike, Rinkah is the most suitable unit to play the tank role, the second being Oboro and only because of seals and naginata guard if she is allowed to wield it. Like Silas, Rinkah doesn't get much from 1 or 2 levels, so it's useless to give this exp to her.

The only suitable unit for it is Kaze who can double more ennemies if given this exp, and this means you want to use him. Which I don't in 80% of my PT. I prefer raising Mozu, who will do more than killing a mage or 2 in ennemy phase (which Hinoka can do without help on PP after luring them on EP) as she will delete all kinds of ennemies little time after her paralogue if you gave her the western kill exp (and maybe some chip damage exp since you can refresh her to not waste a turn).

She does like 2 damage at base with a bronze naginata and bronze yumi has 2 more MT than naginata, meaning she deals 4 damage to the faceless at level 1 and an E rank, without even using attack stance or guard stance bonuses (your point that she deals nearly no damage is a fake news for example since she deals more than 1 damage with a shitty weapon she comes with and doubles her damage when she goes to archer with a yumi, in a game with guaranteed dual attack in attack stance as long as you don't stay near your unarmed units). With dragonstone Corrin attack stance she 2HKOs the faceless (Corrin will deal around 10-12 damage by him-/herself) which can happen in only 1 turn. You can also draw them and hit them with your frontline and finish them with Mozu, giving more exp to your other units.

Way to put words in my mouth. My point is that if she's a player phase unit, which you yourself admit she is, she can't carry the team because anyone I expect to carry the team must be able to put in work on the more important phase - Enemy Phase. Also, comparing Mozu to RD Shinon is delusional - what makes RD Shinon good isn't his growths (though his growths aren't bad). It's his bases and high level. Last I checked, Mozu doesn't have either in her corner. I would consider PoR Rolf a more apt comparison. Or, for a Pokemon example, Magikarp. In all instances, I find the investment to be too much for the payoff.

Magikarp can't attack at all before level 15 and has like 3 damage per attack until he evolves level 20. Level 1 Mozu can kill the faceless in her paralogue without attack stance if you slow down, or she can take it while going forward if you're not willing to play slowly, but she looses more than 1 level up by doing so. Whycompare her with Shinon and not Rolf? Because Rolf doesn't benefit from attack stance, is in a heavy EP-oriented game and starts as a liability while doing nothing remarkable that a unit with 1-2 range couldn't do and POR to use your example is heavily mounted. Shinon in RD has common movement where bow knight (Astrid at that) is heavily handicapped and cannot even traverse certain areas (1 move in swamp, unable to climb ledges, foot units' move indoors) on top of cavalry having crappy caps in RD, most of them can't even double Ashera and most of the ennemies in the Tower. Shinon can double, can deal good damage and he's one of the most accurate/powerful attackers in your team (on top of being an amazing dodgetank and taking 2-3 hits without dying). That's what Mozu becomes after the little initial investment and she saves you str and spd tonics for the whole game compared with Takumi as well as a deployable unit (since she needs no backpack to meet the thresholds in most cases).

Moreover, you can put an archer at 2 range when your frontline blocks the way, while a 1 range unit can't kill reliably at 2 range (if it even has a 1-2 weapon since they're so short in quantity), thus you can tank, then come take a kill with Mozu even if the ennemy has dodged the tank's attack and break through the ennemy lines with your own frontline, reliably compared with other PP units.

Assuming she's going to be at equal level to him when she starts at level 1 and he starts at level 6 in Birthright and Conquest (to say nothing of him being able to level up some in the latter before she even joins) is foolishness - it implies you either sandbagged him, favoured her, or both. Also, last I checked, there's no anti-armor bow, while there is an Armorslayer you should have by the opera chapter - Great Knights are weak against anti-armor AND anti-cavalry weapons, remember. Re: Rinkah, she has a hard time getting kills early on because her offense sucks, and it doesn't help that she has two chapters where she's WTD'd against everything (chapter 5, where everything uses red weapons, and chapter 6, where she cannot hope to defeat Xander, and also faces WTD against Leo and Camilla; don't get me started on Revelation). Having a bad start is a bad thing when you consider Early Game Hell is a thing.

Silas or whoever got the exp from the east (outside Corrin) should have gained about 2 levels by the moment Mozu is reached. The frontliner you're exping can intercept the rushing faceless for chip damage exp, and eventually get the boss kill depending on the needs and the exp distribution (if Mozu can't level up from the boss kill, give it to the frontliner so it levels up sooner).

Silas can use the armor killer from chap 7 against the first GK you encounter, and by this means you hope Silas actually deals decent damage to this 20+ def 32+ hp, I couldn't find the stats anywhere, but the thing is, if Silas doesn't dodge, he takes more damage than the GK. And I doubt he can kill it even with Takumi in attack stance. With Mozu you draw the GK with Rinkah (in attack stance w/Mozu so she also gains exp and weakens it) then you choose who get the kill, anyway Mozu is the safest unit to kill it with (you could also try to use Orochi and end up deceived because she's garbage and wasted exp, but at least she deals decent damage to GK when they don't OHKO her with a javeling/throwing axe in return). If your tank doesn't absolutely need to get healed after the GK hit it once, then you save a turn from healing and you can do something else with the healer, like following the frontline close enough to help them whenever they need it.

I know what snowballing is, thank you very much. I saw it many times on the Awakening board. I don't see Mozu snowballing unless you intentionally slow down to a glacial pace just to feed her most of the kills (AKA, babying and favoritism). Also, it seems you willfully fail to grasp that growths cannot be relied on to salvage a bad unit, because they're subject to the whims of the RNG - even Mozu with her good growths is susceptible to bad level ups. And bad level ups hurt more if you have bad bases than if you have good bases.

50% growths aren't reliable. 65-80% are much more reliable. Out of 20 games I've used Mozu, she's been RNG screwed 1x in def (as a lance fighter) to the point of unusability and only because she had a frontliner class, which doesn't suit her best, and one in strength and as an archer she was still usable because of QD+yumi MT and her insane speed was still beating everything Takumi brought to the table (at that time I didn't even use anything but iron weapons outside personal weapons). A PP unit doesn't require you to slow down in order to get exp. In fact, they help you go faster by allowing more turns to move for your frontliners, who don't have to waste PP clearing the path to the next ennemy group.

There you go again, displaying blatant favoritism as though all that has Mozu's name on it. Don't you ever learn? I ask again, why in the seven hells should I go out of my way to baby Mozu? Or choose Azama as my healer when Sakura is better owing to a useful personal skill, especially knowing that Azama comes much later in Revelation (chapter 16, which must be done consecutively along with chapter 17, by which point Sakura is most likely promoted)?

Why use anyone worse than her if not by pure sloth? I think you're just lazy. Do you think people only put their money in things that are already safe and won't let them gain much out of it? No, the ones who make money take risks, find who/what has potential, invest in it and enjoy the results by gaining much more than what they invested. Using Mozu is a short term investment that gives long term effectiveness. She's better than every other PP unit except Kaze (only because of guard stance rinkah's bonus str, and it means you deploy a unit just for a backpack) at the end of her paralogue if you did the little investment of letting her last hit the low exp faceless.

And like I said, having a good PP unit that will snowball the further she goes in the game is a very good investment (investing in Silas, Takumi, Oboro and co is like investing in coal thermal plant, it brings instant benefits but wastes exp for actual good long term units who don't need 600 gold worth of tonics each per chapter to stay relevant and do more than take 2 hits and retreat to heal, like coal thermal plant destroys the environment and poisons the area with heavy black smoke, while renewable energy only takes the ressources to build the structures, then it gives much more benefits and less drawbacks, it doesn't poison the air, the water, the soil, it doesn't destroy the ozone either, less to no long term colateral damage).

Azama is instantly more durable than Sakura, he's one of the 2 Hoshido exclusives with a real interest in hybrid combat, the other being Saizo, and D staves are enough to even use 0 magic healers and Azama is far from having 0 magic. The healing isn't 100% magic + staff heal amount anymore, it's something like mag/2+weapon rank+staff heal amount. So magic doesn't need to be high for your healers to be useful. Once promoted, he's a front medic with insane combat potential, beating most combat units with only E rank naginata.

I don't see Azama getting Renewal by the time Ryoma comes along unless you promote him early, at which point you hamstring his potential. Rinkah, I already explained (ergo, her bad start discourages me from investing in her, and it doesn't help that Oni Chieftain is part of the proud tradition of subpar hybrid classes). Regarding the ninjas, I don't see the point of bring up caps because they aren't gonna be relevant for very long, if at all.

You use 1 or 2 healers, so you should have fairly enough exp put into Azama at this point to promote him, be it lv 20 or not, his growths and bases make him a good prepromote as well as an insane growth unit and one of the most efficient frontliners. If you can't get exp with such unit, how could you even complete the game?

You have the audacity to talk about "tiny investment" when you talk about feeding Mozu most of the kills in her paralogue? Way to completely contradict yourself there. If anything, trying to raise Mozu would likely force me to slow down to a glacial pace because she's fragile and weak starting out. Also, a +4 Silver Yumi would be unrealistic at that point because without DLC, you'd probably bankrupt yourself (silver yumis cost 4,000 gold), and that's ignoring the other issues with the forge system, ergo, that if your castle doesn't have the appropriate material, in this case jade, your forging attempts slow down considerably. And that's saying nothing of the disadvantages that silvers have in this game; I'll pass on a chance to automatically lose whatever fights I get into or having to deal with the debuffs silver weapons carry, thank you very much (having to worry about enemy debuffs is enough for me).

I told you +4 was only for fun, a silver yumi does the job. I also told you that stat debuffs are gone the next turn, so you won't stack debuffs unless you refresh her every turn and use the silver yumi each time. Learn to read before wasting my time even more. I spend hours per topic telling you the same information, you still misinform by not reading or voluntarily circlejerking so I have to repeat my explanation. After Hoshido 7, you have precisely 13k gold, 6.5k from silver yumi+bronze yumi+second seal is nothing special. You could even get enough iron yumi from visiting castles to not even buy the silver yumi and just forge the iron one you get from Setsuna. Battle points also give you a killer bow quite fast considering how little I battle in castles. Doubling with a killer bow is very nice.

BTW, you would have used this gold anyway, don't start complaining again please, instead of wasting it I use it to get the most out of a good unit that just needs this to do everything you want a PP unit to do for the whole game. She won't need tonics so you will get it back by shorting yourself of the price of using Takumi, who also needs a silver yumi to hit harder and doesn't double by himself, or Setsuna who needs a strength pair up or tonic, who would like a few spd tonics before her level get out of her joke base of 3 when all your units from previous levels are minimum level 4 (Hana) or 5 (Subaki) and Mozu could be 6-8 and more accurate. See how you give 1 speedwings, 1 talisman and 1 maser sealed pair up to Xander? well I give 1 E rank and 1 B rank weapon to Mozu and 1 master seal, each being unlimited ressources past mid game and not very contested in early game in BR, letting limited ressources like stat boosters and pair up partners for other units (like Ryoma, Scarlet, Azama, Saizo etc.)

I doubt it - considering that without very heavy faovritism, Mozu probably won't measure up to Takumi, which isn't helped by the fact that only silvers, which are impractical, and the Pursuer, which can only be used by Snipers and comes late, are stronger than the Fujin Yumi.

Which doesn't change the fact that doubling with 26 damage is better than not doubling with 30 damage (random numbers), especially when both OHKO the ninjas and the pegasi but Takumi might fail to OHKO the wyvern promoted ennemies and he requires help to double them, needless to say his speed is 50% more unreliable than Mozu's speed. 3.5 chapters are enough for her to be far ahead of him if you know how to use a PP unit. And if you praise Takumi so much I guess you use PP units at least sometimes. Well now try using it often if not all the time and enjoy the time you save and how easier the game is now that you've learnt what is teached to you in RD tutorial which range chip vs no range and how it makes fighting easier, especially when you replace chip with ORKO.

Now can we go back to the topic please?

I think Hana as a shrine maiden can be funny, and she get bows by promotion while retaining 50 or 55% str growth before promo, while not competing for combat exp before promo. Easier to exp than swordie Hana.

Edited October 22, 2019 by mangasdeouf

Feathermind · October 23, 2019

Nyx benefits quite a bit from a dip into Adventurer for Lucky 7. Getting the 3 levels required for it is a bit of a nightmare in Lunatic Conquest (barring Arms Scroll use for Shining Bow access, anyways) but it shores up her poor skill while the evasion helps her survivability. Witch Nyx in particular benefits as the solid speed the class offers (a notable advantage over her normal tome options) coupled with the class's innate +10 evasion and the +20 from Lucky 7 lets her evade tank (You'll also want Bird Spirit or Ember and Calamity Gate, though lower evade options are sometimes necessary to bait the smarter AI conquest enemies into attacking). An evade tanking Witch Nyx handled the right side of chapter 25 of my first Lunatic Conquest playthrough, where evade tanking is preferable to normal due to the Inevitable End enemy skill.

Of course anyone makes a good Witch and Elise in particular is a better Nyx in most aspects, but without an S rank Niles support Elise lacks the Lucky 7 access that makes that particular setup work so well.

Shadow Mir · October 23, 2019

18 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

@samthedigital I think you misunderstood, playing efficiently does not mean LTC. It's just not wasting turns to do unneeded stuff, and using the units best fit to each thing. Why would Mozu be in play? Because she's better than her competition as an archer and she is a "delete button". She takes some level ups to become efficient, sure. But what does Silas do with 1 or 2 more level ups? Does he ORKO stuff he doesn't ORKO 1 or 2 levels lower because he's just 1 damage or 1 speed away or doubling? If you're not playing normal difficulty, he won't double anything without heavy favoritism (like a +4 spd pair up and a tonic, maybe even a speedwings cuz he's not fast at all with 8 base speed at level 6, indeed, his speed is similar to Takumi's (or even worse since he needs 6 level ups to reach 11, which means lv 11 he's got 10 speed following averages, which is even worse than Takumi who's already a slowpoke).

Talking about EP units able to ORKO in ennemy phase? Let's see, Azama can take several ennemies but he tends to be too slow to double them on average, so he needs an onmyoji pair up to hope to kill them with a bolt naginata. This requires you to promote anyone into onmyoji. Ryoma does it at base. Other than them, Kagero is too squishy, Kaze is too weak and squishy, Saizo might be lagging behing offensively, either due to shuriken having garbage base damage (+2 iron has 8 MT, which is still 1 less MT than a base iron yumi, 5 MT from a +2 iron yumi). I don't think anyone else can ORKO unless they OHKO (at this I only see Azama and Scarlet being able to OHKO with throwing weapons and no more than an archer/lance fighter pair up) on 1-2 weapons in EP.

Add that 1-2 weapons tend to lack accuracy and their wielders generally have low skill (Oboro, Silas have low skill, Silas mostly due to his class having only 10% but also due to him being average to mediocre at everything, he'd be god in GBA FE but it's not a GBA FE and ennemies have actual def, more HP than your units in the same class whoever we're talking about, except Ryoma/Xander's daddy's girl biased bases from IS, Azama has no more than average skill, Scarlet might be a little igher than average but using axes/clubs as her main weapon doesn't help her...) and can't double, your only half reliable EP killer is...Saizo, if he procs speed 4x in a row and uses a pair up that gives speed and strength...wait, there's no berserker in this game, too bad no one can help Saizo and he needs an archer/lance fighter in guard stance with tonics to match some of the spd thresholds, too bad for him he's slower than Hinata for half of the game.

Please explain how you want anyone not heir to the throne (so anyone but Xander/Ryoma) to do Seth's job in Fates. It's not like ennemies are nice enough to come with 20 HP and 4 def for 10 chapters. They come with 21-30 HP and 6-11 or so def as soon as chapter 8, I don't remember the exact stats but it's not far from that, and it's only in hard since I only played lunatic once and stopped right after chapter 8, at least 2 years ago. They also have a minimum of 7 speed, maybe more (I think the oni who are the slowest have 9 spd, don't they?). No one except Subaki and Hinoka who deal little damage can double the oni, if Corrin doesn't have enough speed. Kaze could damage them with a Rinkah pair up, you're still better off spamming dragon stone and archer Mozu since magic and yumi are the heaviest hitters at this point. And it only get worse little time after Ryoma comes, when the ennemy generals made my eyeballs jump out of their holes. They have so much damage and def as well as Xander level HP, you just want to not fight them. But if I remember and use IS logic, they should be placed so that you can hardly skip them if you want to open the chests, and Generals tend to use javelins a lot in Fates even in hard difficulty.

TL;DR: excluding Ryoma/Xander, very few units, if any, can reliably ORKO ennemies in EP, appart from squishy thieves/mages, and the ones who can generally don't want to let one or the other attack them first, since Scarlet doesn't like to take a 20+ magic damage attack or a 20+ damage bow attack, no physical unit with 1-2 range except Kagero/Kaze like to eat a magic hit, and the ones who can eat a magic hit and kill the guilt don't want to take a physical hit. In the end, EP is mostly the time you use to weaken ennemies to kill them in PP. Thus this game is heavily PP oriented, which mean it needs PP killers. Archers are exactly that, and Mozu is the most effeicient archer, and the only one being good to excellent for the whole game. Mages are bad, hybrids are not awesome either (Saizo and Azama are correct at best at hybrid damage). That's why Mozu is your best bet for a delete button that helps clearing waves of ennemies by reliably deleting her target without anyone's help.

You have no clue as to what efficient play is if you think Mozu would be used in an efficient run - or if you think an efficient run is going to go out of their way to spoonfeed her. That's the antithesis of efficient for reasons that should be glaringly obvious.

mangasdeouf · October 23, 2019

Hero Benny has 32 HP, 15 str, 20 skl, 11 spd, 12 luck, 18+2 def and 11 res at base, might be worth considering as his best class, if he goes fighter he has the time to grind axe ranks (+5 HP gives him 37 HP lol, he's nearly no Siegfried Xander at base with an instant promo, just lacking some speed), it's insane how underestimated he is while he could do that so easily.

joshcja · October 23, 2019

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

Hero Benny has 32 HP, 15 str, 20 skl, 11 spd, 12 luck, 18+2 def and 11 res at base, might be worth considering as his best class, if he goes fighter he has the time to grind axe ranks (+5 HP gives him 37 HP lol, he's nearly no Siegfried Xander at base with an instant promo, just lacking some speed), it's insane how underestimated he is while he could do that so easily.

Benny's just not great in terms of stats, join, pairup, and class set. Changing him from a footlocker limited 1-2 unit into a footlocked limited 1-2 unit isn't helping much.

His personal is freaking amazing though and justifies using him as a unit on several maps in GK/WL.

mangasdeouf · October 23, 2019

1 minute ago, joshcja said:

Benny's just not great in terms of stats, join, pairup, and class set. Changing him from a footlocker limited 1-2 unit into a footlocked limited 1-2 unit isn't helping much.

His personal is freaking amazing though and justifies using him as a unit on several maps in GK/WL.

I showed you that instant promoting him to hero after a second seal (or before doesn't matter) makes him Xander lite, and he could be promoted level 20 as well to raise axe rank and get hp +5 in the process, and gamble, which means he can be a little faster and overall stronger, tankier and more amazing. What do you expect a tank to become? Sure he won't double, but I don't expect a tank to double and as a fighter he gains 15 spd growth, which put him at 25%, so he should gain 1 or 2 speed, while becoming tankier than most of your unitseven as a fighter and having the best accuracy of all axe wielders thanks to his personal. He can also go berserker for pair up stats like Charlotte and Arthur. But as a fighting unit, hero seems to make the best out of him with sol healing whatever damage he takes. He's Duessel put in Fates in a class that's not vulnerable to beast killers and armor killers at once (and hero has less def than general so he may lure ennemies to him).

joshcja · October 23, 2019

45 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

I showed you that instant promoting him to hero after a second seal (or before doesn't matter) makes him Xander lite, and he could be promoted level 20 as well to raise axe rank and get hp +5 in the process, and gamble, which means he can be a little faster and overall stronger, tankier and more amazing. What do you expect a tank to become? Sure he won't double, but I don't expect a tank to double and as a fighter he gains 15 spd growth, which put him at 25%, so he should gain 1 or 2 speed, while becoming tankier than most of your unitseven as a fighter and having the best accuracy of all axe wielders thanks to his personal. He can also go berserker for pair up stats like Charlotte and Arthur. But as a fighting unit, hero seems to make the best out of him with sol healing whatever damage he takes. He's Duessel put in Fates in a class that's not vulnerable to beast killers and armor killers at once (and hero has less def than general so he may lure ennemies to him).

Repeating yourself in ever spiraling textwalls does not a persuasive argument make.

Shadow Mir · October 23, 2019

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Hero Benny has 32 HP, 15 str, 20 skl, 11 spd, 12 luck, 18+2 def and 11 res at base, might be worth considering as his best class, if he goes fighter he has the time to grind axe ranks (+5 HP gives him 37 HP lol, he's nearly no Siegfried Xander at base with an instant promo, just lacking some speed), it's insane how underestimated he is while he could do that so easily.

That's not helping him much, especially considering that Xander comes not too long after (speaking of, he loses in every stat to base Xander but skill, which he has a marginal win in, and resistance, which is a tie). Worse yet, you're discarding his lance rank for two E ranks. Have fun with that.

mangasdeouf · October 23, 2019

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's not helping him much, especially considering that Xander comes not too long after (speaking of, he loses in every stat to base Xander but skill, which he has a marginal win in, and resistance, which is a tie). Worse yet, you're discarding his lance rank for two E ranks. Have fun with that.

It's a topic to make creative things with units, things that aren't common and don't get any spotlight in LTC and co. I don't want to instant promote him to hero, I just showed how hero made him so much better than knight and general, by letting him be less of a slowpoke, not needing wary fighter as much, and actually do his tank job by not inspiring fear in the ennemy ranks with a completely unscratchable defence that will only make them ignore him. In 5 levels, he has all the time to get some useout of average, 3.5 HP, 3 str, 3.25 skl, 1.25 speed, 2 luck, 3 def and 2.25 in res, to score an average 35.5 HP +5 (40.5), 18 str, 23.25 skl, 12.25 spd, 14 lck, 21 def +2 (23), 13.25 res. If we compare at equal levels, add 3 level ups: 37.6 (42.6) HP, 19.65 str, 25.35 skl, 13 spd, 15.2 luck, 22.95 (24.95) def, 14.6 res. Now he's got 4.6 HP, 7.35 skl and 3.6 res over Xander at the cost of 3.35 str (but forgeable axes), 2 spd (predictable), 4.8 luck and 2.05 def. If we let him longer in knight and only give him skills from fighter after promotion, his speed is 0.75 lower (12.25) while his def is 0.75 higher (25.7), whichever you prefer.

In fact, I think he wants knight/general GR more than fighter and hero GR, but the difference isn't very significant as you see, 1 point in spd vs 1 point in def, to end in hero anyway. The major differences are when he get the skills and his axe rank. if you think 1 point of spd is worth more than 1 def, then go for fighter hero immediately, if you value 1 def more go for knight general. Just remember to make him D axes at least, so he can wield a hand axe thankfully generals have axes. BTW, don't forget that he has +3 def on terrain with effect (27.95 in fighter hero, 28.7 in knight hero, 29.15 in knight general). OFC the longer you use him the bigger the difference between him and Xander, notably in def, skill and res (50 vs 70/ 25 vs 45) but also in HP (60 vs 70). Benny is more of a hybrid tank, while Xander is better at counterattacking vs physical ennemies and has more speed and crit avoid (20 at base w/Siegfried) but he has less HP to take a crit from a berserker (1 luck tonic brings Benny to almost the same luck as Xander, again the heir's only salvation for comparisons is OPfried, sure you can give a luck tonic to Xander, but will it really change much?).

Yes, hero Benny seems perfectly viable, if he needs wary fighter, it's only 1 level up in general anyway. Don't forget he's got one of the best activation rates in the game for sol/luna. It's unreliable, but it's activating often enough to consider it.

Shadow Mir · October 24, 2019

16 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

It's a topic to make creative things with units, things that aren't common and don't get any spotlight in LTC and co. I don't want to instant promote him to hero, I just showed how hero made him so much better than knight and general, by letting him be less of a slowpoke, not needing wary fighter as much, and actually do his tank job by not inspiring fear in the ennemy ranks with a completely unscratchable defence that will only make them ignore him. In 5 levels, he has all the time to get some useout of average, 3.5 HP, 3 str, 3.25 skl, 1.25 speed, 2 luck, 3 def and 2.25 in res, to score an average 35.5 HP +5 (40.5), 18 str, 23.25 skl, 12.25 spd, 14 lck, 21 def +2 (23), 13.25 res. If we compare at equal levels, add 3 level ups: 37.6 (42.6) HP, 19.65 str, 25.35 skl, 13 spd, 15.2 luck, 22.95 (24.95) def, 14.6 res. Now he's got 4.6 HP, 7.35 skl and 3.6 res over Xander at the cost of 3.35 str (but forgeable axes), 2 spd (predictable), 4.8 luck and 2.05 def. If we let him longer in knight and only give him skills from fighter after promotion, his speed is 0.75 lower (12.25) while his def is 0.75 higher (25.7), whichever you prefer.

In fact, I think he wants knight/general GR more than fighter and hero GR, but the difference isn't very significant as you see, 1 point in spd vs 1 point in def, to end in hero anyway. The major differences are when he get the skills and his axe rank. if you think 1 point of spd is worth more than 1 def, then go for fighter hero immediately, if you value 1 def more go for knight general. Just remember to make him D axes at least, so he can wield a hand axe thankfully generals have axes. BTW, don't forget that he has +3 def on terrain with effect (27.95 in fighter hero, 28.7 in knight hero, 29.15 in knight general). OFC the longer you use him the bigger the difference between him and Xander, notably in def, skill and res (50 vs 70/ 25 vs 45) but also in HP (60 vs 70). Benny is more of a hybrid tank, while Xander is better at counterattacking vs physical ennemies and has more speed and crit avoid (20 at base w/Siegfried) but he has less HP to take a crit from a berserker (1 luck tonic brings Benny to almost the same luck as Xander, again the heir's only salvation for comparisons is OPfried, sure you can give a luck tonic to Xander, but will it really change much?).

Yes, hero Benny seems perfectly viable, if he needs wary fighter, it's only 1 level up in general anyway. Don't forget he's got one of the best activation rates in the game for sol/luna. It's unreliable, but it's activating often enough to consider it.

For the fact that this costs me a very valuable Heart Seal, that is really unimpressive, especially considering he ain't gonna be at a level equal to Xander by the time he joins, nor will he be even close. Which is what happens when you only have two chapters to play catch-up, and are a late arrival in one. Also, the funny thing is, outside of Hans, who you really shouldn't be allowing to get the first attack, Xander doesn't have to worry about Berserkers critting him (thank Naga for Siegfried), while Benny does.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Shadow Mir

mangasdeouf · October 25, 2019

On 10/24/2019 at 5:08 PM, Shadow Mir said:

For the fact that this costs me a very valuable Heart Seal, that is really unimpressive, especially considering he ain't gonna be at a level equal to Xander by the time he joins, nor will he be even close. Which is what happens when you only have two chapters to play catch-up, and are a late arrival in one. Also, the funny thing is, outside of Hans, who you really shouldn't be allowing to get the first attack, Xander doesn't have to worry about Berserkers critting him (thank Naga for Siegfried), while Benny does.

It's not like Benny at base with Charlotte backpack can go on any terrain with bonus and barely take any physical damage for the whole chapter, he carried me so hard in this chapter while everyone was being 2 shot by these insane combos of mages and knights (yes I split my army, that's what the map lures you to do and I didn't play CQ chap 13 more than 5x total, 3 of which were more than 6 months ago so I didn't remember it) and of Takumi the idiot with an early promotion giving him godly hit, some annoying crit and stupid speed, + the ******* wyverns with knight backpacks crossing the river, who you can hardly intercept because you can only do the same by sending a flyer right into Reina's OHKO range (with her +70 hit vs flyers which means she has 100% hit whatever skill you carry).

Benny even takes nearly no damage from Takumi while standing on forest tiles (not even castle doors), he can kill the ennemies 1 by 1 just with a potion or a 20 hp regen potion.

He comes late in his join chapter? turn 3 isn't late joining in my book, it's right when the split tactics comes to an end because you're forced to turtle when everyone not OHKOable comes at you at once, with the right side having only 32+ HP 13+ def units with about 30 damage each and decent hit rate, ad the left side is mages laughing at your party of inexistant res stat (except Kaze if you took some time to raise him...oh wait the only chapter he's playable in before chapter 13 has ennemies he can barely scratch with his baby strength that tickles anyone except healers, so unless you gave him heavy favoritism and slowed the pace in a chapter that forces you to rush like you never did even in RD chapter 1 medium difficulty, Kaze isn't doing much in chapter 13 and even him lacks res to fight these overlevelled diviners with Orochi and a ******* seal res). When he comes, he's a godsend that nearly solos the east of the map with little help (only his friend as backpack) and he also destroys the ******* wyverns with knight suitcases attached to them.

To explain, my 18 res dark flyer Beruka with hp +5 perma res rallied to 22 had much trouble dealing with these ******* and needed no less than 2 fighting units' help to clean this mess and then go slaughter the wyverns before they could destroy my turtle. When I had to play this chapter a second time because Takushit, Orocheat and her 5 diviners with 20-26 magic damage and the 4 25-30 damage knights ganged me up and let Benny alone, I used this Keaton with max stat(ue)s Great knight so I'd send them a middle finger (using cheap tactics vs cheap level design, sorry for the ones who think chap 13 has a good design, for me getting pressed on by ennemies who 2HKO 80% of your units and use attack stance, while you can hardly OHKO them in return, or only with units who can't tank them and don't have more movement than them, whn it's hard for your party to set up multiple attack stances while being able to tank the remaining ******* you can't kill on the first turn of confrontation, just leads to needing to rely on avoid to not get 1 or several units killed, especially when in order to set up attack stances for ORKO you sacrifice all the potential defense from guard stance, and when they push you into Takumi's squad of knights you're in a bad position. Git Gud, yeah but no, I'm not playing puzzle games for a reason, CQ has too much puzzle gameplay for me to enjoy, actually I just release all my frustration into middle fingers when I clear a chapter I struggled with, most of the time I cheese some of it with a non legit unit and one or more units die each chapter to a random WTF, like a 25% hit rate hitting, or me not seeing this unit and only this one had ******* quick draw).

So yes, Benny is useful, comes right in time like a true hero and is immediately usable to his full potential thanks to heavy bonus terrain. Using him is beneficial and he'll become better, and hero helps him getting better after promotion. His chapter is pure frustration like chapter 12 (the one with Ryoma as a boss) and has very unequal pacing, forcing you to play aggressively while punishing you for doing so at the same time.

And this topic isn't made for try hard LTC or such, it's made to help players get the best or funniest out of subpar units. If you don't like using subpar units when they take a deployment slot, then go post on LTC or efficiency topics instead, here we're discussing of having fun, turning the tables, not using the units IS pushes us to use like OPrepromotes, royals with 20+ GR above your usual unit or with 10-15 more base stats including much more HP than non royal units competing with them in the same class/role. We're trying to send a middle finger to poor game balance by doing the same thing they did with the top units, pure bias. + while second seals are a limited resource until chapter 16 is completed in Awakening, seals are buyable at any moment via castle visits in Fates. What I do with my seals doesn't concern you, if you wan't to use your 1st second seal on Corrin, you're free to waste it to make him/her worse than in his/her base class, but I'm sick of Corrin so I don't play this baby anymore most of the time. Too average in everything, I don't get amazing Corrin in any playthrough even with skill buying because their stats are just to spread for their own good, and I'm not replaying 5 trash chapters each time I want another boon/bane. Not wasting 50+ minutes by replaying these maps over and over, 2 or 3 times per weak if I change boon/bane as often as I make a new file with different units in play, different builds, different pairings...

Shadow Mir · October 25, 2019

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

It's not like Benny at base with Charlotte backpack can go on any terrain with bonus and barely take any physical damage for the whole chapter, he carried me so hard in this chapter while everyone was being 2 shot by these insane combos of mages and knights (yes I split my army, that's what the map lures you to do and I didn't play CQ chap 13 more than 5x total, 3 of which were more than 6 months ago so I didn't remember it) and of Takumi the idiot with an early promotion giving him godly hit, some annoying crit and stupid speed, + the ******* wyverns with knight backpacks crossing the river, who you can hardly intercept because you can only do the same by sending a flyer right into Reina's OHKO range (with her +70 hit vs flyers which means she has 100% hit whatever skill you carry).

Benny even takes nearly no damage from Takumi while standing on forest tiles (not even castle doors), he can kill the ennemies 1 by 1 just with a potion or a 20 hp regen potion.

He comes late in his join chapter? turn 3 isn't late joining in my book, it's right when the split tactics comes to an end because you're forced to turtle when everyone not OHKOable comes at you at once, with the right side having only 32+ HP 13+ def units with about 30 damage each and decent hit rate, ad the left side is mages laughing at your party of inexistant res stat (except Kaze if you took some time to raise him...oh wait the only chapter he's playable in before chapter 13 has ennemies he can barely scratch with his baby strength that tickles anyone except healers, so unless you gave him heavy favoritism and slowed the pace in a chapter that forces you to rush like you never did even in RD chapter 1 medium difficulty, Kaze isn't doing much in chapter 13 and even him lacks res to fight these overlevelled diviners with Orochi and a ******* seal res). When he comes, he's a godsend that nearly solos the east of the map with little help (only his friend as backpack) and he also destroys the ******* wyverns with knight suitcases attached to them.

To explain, my 18 res dark flyer Beruka with hp +5 perma res rallied to 22 had much trouble dealing with these ******* and needed no less than 2 fighting units' help to clean this mess and then go slaughter the wyverns before they could destroy my turtle. When I had to play this chapter a second time because Takushit, Orocheat and her 5 diviners with 20-26 magic damage and the 4 25-30 damage knights ganged me up and let Benny alone, I used this Keaton with max stat(ue)s Great knight so I'd send them a middle finger (using cheap tactics vs cheap level design, sorry for the ones who think chap 13 has a good design, for me getting pressed on by ennemies who 2HKO 80% of your units and use attack stance, while you can hardly OHKO them in return, or only with units who can't tank them and don't have more movement than them, whn it's hard for your party to set up multiple attack stances while being able to tank the remaining ******* you can't kill on the first turn of confrontation, just leads to needing to rely on avoid to not get 1 or several units killed, especially when in order to set up attack stances for ORKO you sacrifice all the potential defense from guard stance, and when they push you into Takumi's squad of knights you're in a bad position. Git Gud, yeah but no, I'm not playing puzzle games for a reason, CQ has too much puzzle gameplay for me to enjoy, actually I just release all my frustration into middle fingers when I clear a chapter I struggled with, most of the time I cheese some of it with a non legit unit and one or more units die each chapter to a random WTF, like a 25% hit rate hitting, or me not seeing this unit and only this one had ******* quick draw).

So yes, Benny is useful, comes right in time like a true hero and is immediately usable to his full potential thanks to heavy bonus terrain. Using him is beneficial and he'll become better, and hero helps him getting better after promotion. His chapter is pure frustration like chapter 12 (the one with Ryoma as a boss) and has very unequal pacing, forcing you to play aggressively while punishing you for doing so at the same time.

And this topic isn't made for try hard LTC or such, it's made to help players get the best or funniest out of subpar units. If you don't like using subpar units when they take a deployment slot, then go post on LTC or efficiency topics instead, here we're discussing of having fun, turning the tables, not using the units IS pushes us to use like OPrepromotes, royals with 20+ GR above your usual unit or with 10-15 more base stats including much more HP than non royal units competing with them in the same class/role. We're trying to send a middle finger to poor game balance by doing the same thing they did with the top units, pure bias. + while second seals are a limited resource until chapter 16 is completed in Awakening, seals are buyable at any moment via castle visits in Fates. What I do with my seals doesn't concern you, if you wan't to use your 1st second seal on Corrin, you're free to waste it to make him/her worse than in his/her base class, but I'm sick of Corrin so I don't play this baby anymore most of the time. Too average in everything, I don't get amazing Corrin in any playthrough even with skill buying because their stats are just to spread for their own good, and I'm not replaying 5 trash chapters each time I want another boon/bane. Not wasting 50+ minutes by replaying these maps over and over, 2 or 3 times per weak if I change boon/bane as often as I make a new file with different units in play, different builds, different pairings...

Except most of the units in that map don't come after you until you go into their range first; only the knights and diviners right near where you start and the wyvern units move unprovoked. Also, that chapter has an Outlaw spawn in later, and beating him to the villages is paramount. Anyway, Natural Cover is only useful if there's a lot of terrain in play, which tends to not be the case in most maps. Sure, Benny can draw in Takumi, but he's likely not going to be doing - or useful for - much else in said map, so I could just as easily say that in this case, the cavalry arrived too late (and even then I consider it better to lure him to a position where I can actually attack him at melee range with more than one unit), which Benny can't do).

Edited October 25, 2019 by Shadow Mir

joshcja · October 25, 2019

4 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

It's not like Benny at base with Charlotte backpack can go on any terrain with bonus and barely take any physical damage for the whole chapter, he carried me so hard in this chapter while everyone was being 2 shot by these insane combos of mages and knights (yes I split my army, that's what the map lures you to do and I didn't play CQ chap 13 more than 5x total, 3 of which were more than 6 months ago so I didn't remember it) and of Takumi the idiot with an early promotion giving him godly hit, some annoying crit and stupid speed, + the ******* wyverns with knight backpacks crossing the river, who you can hardly intercept because you can only do the same by sending a flyer right into Reina's OHKO range (with her +70 hit vs flyers which means she has 100% hit whatever skill you carry).

Benny even takes nearly no damage from Takumi while standing on forest tiles (not even castle doors), he can kill the ennemies 1 by 1 just with a potion or a 20 hp regen potion.

He comes late in his join chapter? turn 3 isn't late joining in my book, it's right when the split tactics comes to an end because you're forced to turtle when everyone not OHKOable comes at you at once, with the right side having only 32+ HP 13+ def units with about 30 damage each and decent hit rate, ad the left side is mages laughing at your party of inexistant res stat (except Kaze if you took some time to raise him...oh wait the only chapter he's playable in before chapter 13 has ennemies he can barely scratch with his baby strength that tickles anyone except healers, so unless you gave him heavy favoritism and slowed the pace in a chapter that forces you to rush like you never did even in RD chapter 1 medium difficulty, Kaze isn't doing much in chapter 13 and even him lacks res to fight these overlevelled diviners with Orochi and a ******* seal res). When he comes, he's a godsend that nearly solos the east of the map with little help (only his friend as backpack) and he also destroys the ******* wyverns with knight suitcases attached to them.

To explain, my 18 res dark flyer Beruka with hp +5 perma res rallied to 22 had much trouble dealing with these ******* and needed no less than 2 fighting units' help to clean this mess and then go slaughter the wyverns before they could destroy my turtle. When I had to play this chapter a second time because Takushit, Orocheat and her 5 diviners with 20-26 magic damage and the 4 25-30 damage knights ganged me up and let Benny alone, I used this Keaton with max stat(ue)s Great knight so I'd send them a middle finger (using cheap tactics vs cheap level design, sorry for the ones who think chap 13 has a good design, for me getting pressed on by ennemies who 2HKO 80% of your units and use attack stance, while you can hardly OHKO them in return, or only with units who can't tank them and don't have more movement than them, whn it's hard for your party to set up multiple attack stances while being able to tank the remaining ******* you can't kill on the first turn of confrontation, just leads to needing to rely on avoid to not get 1 or several units killed, especially when in order to set up attack stances for ORKO you sacrifice all the potential defense from guard stance, and when they push you into Takumi's squad of knights you're in a bad position. Git Gud, yeah but no, I'm not playing puzzle games for a reason, CQ has too much puzzle gameplay for me to enjoy, actually I just release all my frustration into middle fingers when I clear a chapter I struggled with, most of the time I cheese some of it with a non legit unit and one or more units die each chapter to a random WTF, like a 25% hit rate hitting, or me not seeing this unit and only this one had ******* quick draw).

So yes, Benny is useful, comes right in time like a true hero and is immediately usable to his full potential thanks to heavy bonus terrain. Using him is beneficial and he'll become better, and hero helps him getting better after promotion. His chapter is pure frustration like chapter 12 (the one with Ryoma as a boss) and has very unequal pacing, forcing you to play aggressively while punishing you for doing so at the same time.

And this topic isn't made for try hard LTC or such, it's made to help players get the best or funniest out of subpar units. If you don't like using subpar units when they take a deployment slot, then go post on LTC or efficiency topics instead, here we're discussing of having fun, turning the tables, not using the units IS pushes us to use like OPrepromotes, royals with 20+ GR above your usual unit or with 10-15 more base stats including much more HP than non royal units competing with them in the same class/role. We're trying to send a middle finger to poor game balance by doing the same thing they did with the top units, pure bias. + while second seals are a limited resource until chapter 16 is completed in Awakening, seals are buyable at any moment via castle visits in Fates. What I do with my seals doesn't concern you, if you wan't to use your 1st second seal on Corrin, you're free to waste it to make him/her worse than in his/her base class, but I'm sick of Corrin so I don't play this baby anymore most of the time. Too average in everything, I don't get amazing Corrin in any playthrough even with skill buying because their stats are just to spread for their own good, and I'm not replaying 5 trash chapters each time I want another boon/bane. Not wasting 50+ minutes by replaying these maps over and over, 2 or 3 times per weak if I change boon/bane as often as I make a new file with different units in play, different builds, different pairings...

*Screams in Odin*

Shadow Mir · October 29, 2019

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I prove my points, I argument, you just deny everything without giving any data, see the difference? It's like Gretta Thunberg speaking and Trump denying everything while putting in some fake news to discredit the opposite point of view without giving any proof of the truth of this fake news, or European pseudo-populists who talk a lot, say they will do this or that, put in some fake news to make people dislike the opponents more and begin to like them, and having absolutely no program, nothing to base their lies on, just talking nonsense and not even use logic.

I haven't been playing the game lately, and the only site that has enemy data (1) is in Japanese, and (2) doesn't even have data for all the chapters.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

By the time I complete chapter 7, my ubaki is lv 6/7, Hana is usally barely used at all, Rinkah is used only if I bring her further or as a backpack if I use a physical unit in this chapter that needs def and strength more than speed, Corrin is level 11 or 12, Kaze might not even be used except for chest hunting. Get through the earlygame? Well, if I bench Hana I have a spot for Mozu, and since Hana is trash for chapter 8 BR anyway, might as well benefit from utraining my archer who will absolutely outclass every other 2 range attacker in no time. The things with growth units (especially true with Mozu who has access to a class in which she's usable and doesn't take counter damage on top of having the highest damage output in the game after berserkers) is that they grow better than the others. Why do you mention her ability to tank hits again? Do you circlejerk all the time to make me mad? An archer rarely takes damage if you use your grey cells to position it.

Bulbasaur has no grass type move before lv 12 or 13 in g1, which means he's the worst starter. Squirtle has bubble from level 8, which already OS Digglet and 2S Sandshrew in the 1st gym if he's level 12, and Squirtle OS Geodude and nearly OS Onyx when facing Brock with a lv 13-14 Squirtle, and lv 15 he learns water gun which carries him through the 1st gym (only OS with it) and the Mt Moon before he learns bite at lv 24 which makes the 2nd arena a joke, then he only has to tank 1 thunderbolt to reck Raichu in the 3rd gym, and by the time you reach the 4th gym, you've by far evolved a flying type (even before since the route to Leo (the one whose name is the pokémon boxes name) has several grass types and Bulbazaur is your rival's starter). Bulbazaur has the worst figthing moveset and is only useful as a staller in gen 1 (his best leanrt move is...razor leaf! Even if he learnt solar beam it'd take 2 turns to use while razo leaf at least crits often). Not the best exemple of an early carry, since most early pokémon are bug, poison, flying, normal and a combination of bug/poison and poison/flying (Zubat dealt 4x damage with leech life in g1, could as well say he 4 shot Ivysaur without even using confusion, and Ivysaur still has only tackle to hit it with). Squirtle is the best starter on top of having the best non psychic type in g1 and a good learnset (+ surf +ice beam). If you want to take an example that is not relied to Fire Emblem, at least try not to be wrong.

You do realize that you just disproved your own point just now, did you not? And I find your last few sentences funny because you tend to repeat yourself ad nauseum.

Sure Bulbasaur doesn't get any grass moves until then, but what else are you going to use for Brock? No matter which way you slice it, your starter is the only one that you can really rely on, for the most part, as most other mons at that point hit it for NVE damage (granted, this includes Charmander, but because Brock's mons don't actually have super effective moves to use against it, in addition to their having low Special, you can get away with that). As to Bulbasaur's weaknesses... Bug is pretty much irrelevant as an attack type (only three attack moves, and all of them are weak), Poison is only neutral, Ice isn't very common (only 5 ice Pokemon, and one is legendary, while most of the rest are also Water type and thus weak to Grass), Fire isn't that common either aside from Blaine's Gym, which it's pretty much guaranteed that I have something else that can handle it because it requires Surf just to get to and is rather late anyhow, which just leaves Psychic, which I admitted is a problem, and Flying. Anyway, I don't see sending your starter against a mon with a type advantage against it, as you do seem to think is a good idea with sending Wartortle against Surge's Pokemon, as anything other than an easy way to get your ass handed to you on a silver platter. That being said, Squirtle is a solid Water mon, but it's ultimately just the bridesmaid, not the bride. Both in terms of starters and in terms of Water mons in general.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Silas gains little to nothing useful by gaining 1 or 2 levels more than he gains by clearing the eastern part of the map. He won't help more with one level more than with one level lower. His tanking doesn't improve enough, his speed will stay irrelevant, there's no point in raising him outside getting his girl and I don't like her either (she looses the only good point her father has, which is being able to take 1 or 2 hits without dying, as she's as if not more frail than Mozu and sadly there's no good def mom in the whole game except Beruka who screws any fast kid by birthing them, and Rinkah who offers shitty offence). I can use Rinkah already as a sandbag and if she goes Blacksmith she has more skill than Silas, more speed and probably more def too from her 15-16 levels as an oni savage with 65% def growth. She doesn't hit like a truck, but at least she can hope to crit without a dedicated killer weapon since clubs have innate crit, and she can even go ninja to get locktouch (now you have a tank who can open chests, utility on top of combat) and poison strike, and guess what, she can do it without any support while Silas needs 6 chapters/maps to do so with Kaze. With fiery blood + poison strike, Rinkah is the most suitable unit to play the tank role, the second being Oboro and only because of seals and naginata guard if she is allowed to wield it. Like Silas, Rinkah doesn't get much from 1 or 2 levels, so it's useless to give this exp to her.

The only suitable unit for it is Kaze who can double more ennemies if given this exp, and this means you want to use him. Which I don't in 80% of my PT. I prefer raising Mozu, who will do more than killing a mage or 2 in ennemy phase (which Hinoka can do without help on PP after luring them on EP) as she will delete all kinds of ennemies little time after her paralogue if you gave her the western kill exp (and maybe some chip damage exp since you can refresh her to not waste a turn).

She does like 2 damage at base with a bronze naginata and bronze yumi has 2 more MT than naginata, meaning she deals 4 damage to the faceless at level 1 and an E rank, without even using attack stance or guard stance bonuses (your point that she deals nearly no damage is a fake news for example since she deals more than 1 damage with a shitty weapon she comes with and doubles her damage when she goes to archer with a yumi, in a game with guaranteed dual attack in attack stance as long as you don't stay near your unarmed units). With dragonstone Corrin attack stance she 2HKOs the faceless (Corrin will deal around 10-12 damage by him-/herself) which can happen in only 1 turn. You can also draw them and hit them with your frontline and finish them with Mozu, giving more exp to your other units.

What's that supposed to mean? Because speed aside, Mozu doesn't really have any noteworthy growth advantages over Silas. Rinkah's got poor strength, which isn't helped by clubs having poor might, and while Fiery Blood helps, at the same time Silas has Elbow Room, which mostly cancels it out, meaning she doesn't really have a leg to stand on. It doesn't help that she tends to have low HP, and needing to not be at full HP to benefit from your personal isn't good when your max HP is low in the first place.

I thought she only did 1 damage to the Faceless with a Brass Naginata. Which sure sounds like "next to no damage" to me. Even if it was 2 damage, that ain't much better. Her performance might be better as an archer, but not by much (and that's ignoring the opportunity cost that carries). In any instance, it ain't like I can reliably set up kills without using Takumi's Shinai or Niles's Bow, both of which are randomly obtained, and both of which it's unlikely for a unit to have the weapon rank for at that point.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Magikarp can't attack at all before level 15 and has like 3 damage per attack until he evolves level 20. Level 1 Mozu can kill the faceless in her paralogue without attack stance if you slow down, or she can take it while going forward if you're not willing to play slowly, but she looses more than 1 level up by doing so. Whycompare her with Shinon and not Rolf? Because Rolf doesn't benefit from attack stance, is in a heavy EP-oriented game and starts as a liability while doing nothing remarkable that a unit with 1-2 range couldn't do and POR to use your example is heavily mounted. Shinon in RD has common movement where bow knight (Astrid at that) is heavily handicapped and cannot even traverse certain areas (1 move in swamp, unable to climb ledges, foot units' move indoors) on top of cavalry having crappy caps in RD, most of them can't even double Ashera and most of the ennemies in the Tower. Shinon can double, can deal good damage and he's one of the most accurate/powerful attackers in your team (on top of being an amazing dodgetank and taking 2-3 hits without dying). That's what Mozu becomes after the little initial investment and she saves you str and spd tonics for the whole game compared with Takumi as well as a deployable unit (since she needs no backpack to meet the thresholds in most cases).

Moreover, you can put an archer at 2 range when your frontline blocks the way, while a 1 range unit can't kill reliably at 2 range (if it even has a 1-2 weapon since they're so short in quantity), thus you can tank, then come take a kill with Mozu even if the ennemy has dodged the tank's attack and break through the ennemy lines with your own frontline, reliably compared with other PP units.

It's true that Magikarp forces you to switch grind until level 20 (would say 15, but honestly, it has pathetic offense, so you might as well keep doing it until it evolves), and the problem with that is that it delays my other Pokemon getting good because they have to split exp with it. I mentioned Rolf because in PoR, he pretty much has to go through the same thing Mozu does (coming at level 1 when some of your units might already be coming into their own). Shinon's not that great in said game either (I fail to see why you mentioned RD because it's an entirely different game). Regardless, I would say Mozu has much the same problems as Magikarp, minus the not being able to attack part.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Silas or whoever got the exp from the east (outside Corrin) should have gained about 2 levels by the moment Mozu is reached. The frontliner you're exping can intercept the rushing faceless for chip damage exp, and eventually get the boss kill depending on the needs and the exp distribution (if Mozu can't level up from the boss kill, give it to the frontliner so it levels up sooner).

Silas can use the armor killer from chap 7 against the first GK you encounter, and by this means you hope Silas actually deals decent damage to this 20+ def 32+ hp, I couldn't find the stats anywhere, but the thing is, if Silas doesn't dodge, he takes more damage than the GK. And I doubt he can kill it even with Takumi in attack stance. With Mozu you draw the GK with Rinkah (in attack stance w/Mozu so she also gains exp and weakens it) then you choose who get the kill, anyway Mozu is the safest unit to kill it with (you could also try to use Orochi and end up deceived because she's garbage and wasted exp, but at least she deals decent damage to GK when they don't OHKO her with a javeling/throwing axe in return). If your tank doesn't absolutely need to get healed after the GK hit it once, then you save a turn from healing and you can do something else with the healer, like following the frontline close enough to help them whenever they need it.

I dunno about you, but I tend to consider earlygame an "all hands on deck" situation - ergo, I'm stuck with these guys, might as well get something out of them while I'm forced to use them. Trying to focus on one unit is not an idea I'm willing to entertain in this game because the exp dropoff for higher level units is much more evident than in past games.

Rinkah might survive, but she ain't going to be doing meaningful damage to those Great Knights without a Hammer, which the first one you see in chapter 12 drops. And I fail to see Mozu as the best option for dealing with Great Knights at that point because she's most likely not doing any meaningful damage to their 37 HP/17 (?) Def. Takumi actually can hurt them.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

50% growths aren't reliable. 65-80% are much more reliable. Out of 20 games I've used Mozu, she's been RNG screwed 1x in def (as a lance fighter) to the point of unusability and only because she had a frontliner class, which doesn't suit her best, and one in strength and as an archer she was still usable because of QD+yumi MT and her insane speed was still beating everything Takumi brought to the table (at that time I didn't even use anything but iron weapons outside personal weapons). A PP unit doesn't require you to slow down in order to get exp. In fact, they help you go faster by allowing more turns to move for your frontliners, who don't have to waste PP clearing the path to the next ennemy group.

And growths alone don't tell the whole story. Though you seem to willfully ignore that.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Why use anyone worse than her if not by pure sloth? I think you're just lazy. Do you think people only put their money in things that are already safe and won't let them gain much out of it? No, the ones who make money take risks, find who/what has potential, invest in it and enjoy the results by gaining much more than what they invested. Using Mozu is a short term investment that gives long term effectiveness. She's better than every other PP unit except Kaze (only because of guard stance rinkah's bonus str, and it means you deploy a unit just for a backpack) at the end of her paralogue if you did the little investment of letting her last hit the low exp faceless.

And like I said, having a good PP unit that will snowball the further she goes in the game is a very good investment (investing in Silas, Takumi, Oboro and co is like investing in coal thermal plant, it brings instant benefits but wastes exp for actual good long term units who don't need 600 gold worth of tonics each per chapter to stay relevant and do more than take 2 hits and retreat to heal, like coal thermal plant destroys the environment and poisons the area with heavy black smoke, while renewable energy only takes the ressources to build the structures, then it gives much more benefits and less drawbacks, it doesn't poison the air, the water, the soil, it doesn't destroy the ozone either, less to no long term colateral damage).

Azama is instantly more durable than Sakura, he's one of the 2 Hoshido exclusives with a real interest in hybrid combat, the other being Saizo, and D staves are enough to even use 0 magic healers and Azama is far from having 0 magic. The healing isn't 100% magic + staff heal amount anymore, it's something like mag/2+weapon rank+staff heal amount. So magic doesn't need to be high for your healers to be useful. Once promoted, he's a front medic with insane combat potential, beating most combat units with only E rank naginata.

I don't see it as sloth, or even being lazy. It's because I look at the whole picture, as opposed to you being misguided because you settle for only looking at one part of it (in this case, Mozu's growths) and ignoring everything else. Most of the units considered the worst in other games have the same problems she has - coming underleveled, bad bases, having a hard time catching up. Good growths don't mean a thing when you have a hard time killing enemies to level up. Just look at Donnel, Rolf, Wendy, Meg, etc. I'm not one to fall into the pitfall of thinking "surely this unit that starts underleveled will grow into a complete badass if given the TLC", because it just might not be true.

What in the name of Seiros are you on about? You are not making a lick of sense. At all.

That doesn't make up for her making others more durable just by being near her. -2 damage is huge when you're talking about a cast where most units aren't very durable.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

You use 1 or 2 healers, so you should have fairly enough exp put into Azama at this point to promote him, be it lv 20 or not, his growths and bases make him a good prepromote as well as an insane growth unit and one of the most efficient frontliners. If you can't get exp with such unit, how could you even complete the game?

Because I use my head. It's a strategy game, so what did you expect?

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I told you +4 was only for fun, a silver yumi does the job. I also told you that stat debuffs are gone the next turn, so you won't stack debuffs unless you refresh her every turn and use the silver yumi each time. Learn to read before wasting my time even more. I spend hours per topic telling you the same information, you still misinform by not reading or voluntarily circlejerking so I have to repeat my explanation. After Hoshido 7, you have precisely 13k gold, 6.5k from silver yumi+bronze yumi+second seal is nothing special. You could even get enough iron yumi from visiting castles to not even buy the silver yumi and just forge the iron one you get from Setsuna. Battle points also give you a killer bow quite fast considering how little I battle in castles. Doubling with a killer bow is very nice.

BTW, you would have used this gold anyway, don't start complaining again please, instead of wasting it I use it to get the most out of a good unit that just needs this to do everything you want a PP unit to do for the whole game. She won't need tonics so you will get it back by shorting yourself of the price of using Takumi, who also needs a silver yumi to hit harder and doesn't double by himself, or Setsuna who needs a strength pair up or tonic, who would like a few spd tonics before her level get out of her joke base of 3 when all your units from previous levels are minimum level 4 (Hana) or 5 (Subaki) and Mozu could be 6-8 and more accurate. See how you give 1 speedwings, 1 talisman and 1 maser sealed pair up to Xander? well I give 1 E rank and 1 B rank weapon to Mozu and 1 master seal, each being unlimited ressources past mid game and not very contested in early game in BR, letting limited ressources like stat boosters and pair up partners for other units (like Ryoma, Scarlet, Azama, Saizo etc.)

You're dead wrong about debuffs disappearing entirely the next turn - that's in Heroes and 3H. Debuffed stats only recover at a rate of 1 point per turn in this game (2 if you have the Dread Fighter skill Clarity). Also, the self-debuffs from silver weapons and such stack with those from other sources. For example, if she uses a Silver Bow on an enemy with Seal Strength and fails to kill that enemy, she's out 8 (!!!) strength, and needs to wait for 8 turns before her strength returns to normal. That's not good. For that reason, I prefer to use silvers for attack stance or to finish off an enemy. Surely you've seen other users state that silver weapons aren't worth using in this game by now, and that and the Cev drop are why (the price tag doesn't really help, either). I already went into detail on the problems with the forging system - long story short, unless you really go out of your way, you probably won't be able to forge a weapon beyond +2. The Killer Bow doesn't help much because killer weapons got nerfed hard in this game - if I wanted to use killer weapons, I'd play another game where they're actually better than steel.

I don't see why Takumi would need to use a silver when the Fujin Yumi is good enough for most situations and silver isn't strong enough compared to it to make up for the downsides. About the only other weapon I'd have him use is the Dual Yumi, which I would reserve for situations where he's at a weapon disadvantage.

On 10/22/2019 at 6:44 PM, mangasdeouf said:

Which doesn't change the fact that doubling with 26 damage is better than not doubling with 30 damage (random numbers), especially when both OHKO the ninjas and the pegasi but Takumi might fail to OHKO the wyvern promoted ennemies and he requires help to double them, needless to say his speed is 50% more unreliable than Mozu's speed. 3.5 chapters are enough for her to be far ahead of him if you know how to use a PP unit. And if you praise Takumi so much I guess you use PP units at least sometimes. Well now try using it often if not all the time and enjoy the time you save and how easier the game is now that you've learnt what is teached to you in RD tutorial which range chip vs no range and how it makes fighting easier, especially when you replace chip with ORKO.

If Takumi's killing, does it matter that Mozu is overkilling? No. Also, part of the reason I like Takumi is that he doesn't require me to go out of my way to baby him like Mozu does (which tends to be a problem with archers in most other games - poor stats combined with no enemy phase result in needing to force-feed them for them to stay relevant). And I'm not convinced that when trained, Mozu will be so much better than everyone else as to make up for her being a liability early on.

Let's make subpar units much better together

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Recently Browsing 0 members