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Let's make subpar units much better together


mangasdeouf
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14 minutes ago, starburst said:

Mozu's Paralogue is available super early in Conquest, and the available units do not gain much Experience points from those kills anyway. The map itself is so easy that it can be completed with only Cornflakes (L10-11) and Silas (L7) right after Chapter 7. Mozu is always recruited and re-classed by Turn 4, and from that moment onwards she can kill every single enemy on Attack Stance. (I prefer to play it after Ch 8, though; so that Odin and Niles can get support points with their suitors, and Odin can round a level or two.)

What exactly do you mean by "wasting time"? Mozu reaches L8-9 in about ten minutes in her own map. Granted, it requires more turns because she has to get every kill separately using Attack Stance, but how fast do you usually complete the map? Say, five minutes? OK. Then, do five more minutes actually mean "wasting time"? It is your call, but I think that one can easily spend the same five minutes making preparations for any of the later maps.

Why the rule of "2-3 levels per map at beast"? The natural flow of a Player-Phase-intensive game tells you that Player-Phase-offensive units will invariably get more Experience points than the front-liners, precisely because their role is to wipe the screen. It is expected that the Wyvern Lord who held the lines will get less Exp than the Sorcerer right behind it, because the number of battles sustained by a front-liner is exaggeratedly bigger than the number of kills that they can get. On the other hand, the number of battles of a Player-Phase-offensive unit is very close to their number of kills.
And this is coming from someone who does not use "backpacks" and whose all ten units are within 2-4 Levels from each other at any given point in the campaign.


In the end, and as I mentioned on earlier on this thread, Mozu depends on the player's will and not really on herself. If one decides to use her and acts accordingly (investing a Heart Seal, some minutes and Experience points on her in her own map), then she is a great asset in Conquest because she never falls off and fulfils the role of a physical Player Phase unit better than the great majority of units (probably everyone.) Conversely, if one is hesitant about using her and decides not to use a seal or some minutes or Exp, she will never take off.

The subject of the argument was Mozu in Birthright, but even then, having the best player phase unit (who's available very early and carries you long before Ryoma and Scarlet come say hi and before Azama get his hands on a weapon) is a good investment of an early second seal, or having one of the best PP and EP units is worth a dread scroll. Average units are fine to fill the party, then they get outclassed by no effort units like Scarlet whose offence and defence are higher than most of your units before they promote, and even then they don't get flying + offence AND defence, immediate access to the killer axe (only Rinkah can use it by then without an early reclass), Ryoma for decent bulk, high avoid and very good offence at both common ranges, and Azama who can suddenly wield a weapon and 1v25 unless he's def sealed.

Why would you not invest in a unit who ORKO every ennemy in the game except some problematic units with both high def and HP and maybe some hacked skill like dragonskin or whatever it's name can be? Maybe Hans can survive Mozu, but he won't survive another unit attacking him after Mozu did, so it's a 2 units' turn kill, not needing an Azura refresh, and not needing to tank any of his attacks (either he has tomahawk and Mozu attacks last, or he has a 1 range axe and Mozu attacks first, he never get to attack anyone like that unless he's got a 1-2 range weapon, since tomahawk is even more trash than throwing axe since it is 2 range-locked now). If Mozu doesn't kill an ennemy by herself, then there aren't many units who can kill it by themselves without proc/crit (so without luck).

And Yumi having the best offence in the game go well with Mozu's little above average strength and far above average speed, also like I said an archer can use silver at will since it's debuff is cancelled before the next turn attack. +2 silver yumi=20 attack. If anything is a good investment of ressources, I think a 40 MT unit with 8 quick draw damage (48 damage) without counting strength since it's RNG based (still 6 base for Mozu, so it's 48+12=60 attack with base strength) is the best use of your ressources. A 15 def ennemy takes 64 (60+4 from B rank bow) -30 damage from base strength Mozu if she doubles, which will happen in any case of her not OHKOing it (the only ones she could struggle to double, she OHKO them anyway), so it's a 34 damage. Now a 16 str Mozu deals +20 damage: 54 damage. A 21 str Mozu deals +10 damage: your 15 def ennemy takes 64 damage in one round. Tell me if many units can do as much damage with such a positive enhancement the further into the game they go. 30 def ennemy takes 4 damage from base strength Mozu with a +2 yumi and quick draw, 14 from a 11 str Mozu, 24 from a 16 str Mozu, 34 from 21 str Mozu, and so on...she's one of your best anti armor physical units without even using an effective weapon and in several case not eating a counter. This means she also destroys non armored units by a large margin.

Now comapre with the almighty Takumi, praised for Fujin yumi, he will double the general, he could be short of doubling the great knight (55% spd growth vs 80% means a lot), either way he won't have as much attack as her with -15% str growth and about the same base than Mozu's average strength at his join level (0.5 in his favor). He needs tonics for the whole game to be any close to what she does without any stat amp. He costs less when he joins, but he also brings less for the whole game than her. His only salvation is ballistician which gives him 5 range and AOE chip damage (high chip damage at that) and he can even use silver +10 if you can manadge it because ballista isn't considered as fighting so he doesn't take str/skl penalty. He can even stay at base level as a ballistician, only forging yumi to enhance his poke damage, although some accuracy boost can be appreciated the further into the game he goes.

As an archer/sniper, he falls flat since he's a PP phase only unit who NEEDS pair up to do anything by himself (and since he costs you a backpack/attack stance forever, he's not even doing it "by himself"). His other use is as an attack stance partner, but even there Mozu outclasses him the moment he joins because she's higher level than him with more strength, more support ranks (does it affect attack stance bonuses?) and if you invested in a forge/silver yumi, it's not by a small margin (3-4 damage difference can be huge, especially vs lance fighters or the master ninja boss, like not taking an eventual seal def, I don't remember if the lance fighters have it or not) especially for units like Subaki/Hinoka who're good at choosing their fights, but not good at dealing damage.

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1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

By time i was meaning indeed turns, i was saying that is very difficult to baby with efficiency limitations. It's still possible in some cases tho. Also, Mozu is much more useful in conquest.

When you get a unit who doesn't need anyone's help to kill 80% of the ennemies in range and who doesn't have to be healed each turn because it doesn't take counter damage or EP damage, can choose between flying and killing anything in sight or walking and crushing every ennemy's soul, the 10-15 turns it takes me (and I play slowly because I like to maximize exp, but efficient players get enough from playing faster) are 50+ turns I get back later by killing an ennemy each turn while others take care of ennemies slower.

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6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Except Mozu isn't a regular unit, she's the MVP of your team,with the only concurrence being Azama before Ryoma joins with Scarlet. You can even bench all your team to only use Mozu, Azama, Scarlet and Ryoma, and healers and Azura since it's all these 4 need to auto win the game. Every other unit is inferior to them. Spending exp into units that don't do much from midgame and aren't Xander/Benny level tanks is far less efficient than spending it in units who will carry and walk in the park.

An "MVP" doesn't start way behind everyone else and require assloads of babying just to become usable. Both of which Mozu does. And if you make her an archer, I don't see her carrying the team because enemies that get in her face go unpunished unless you use one of several weak weapons OR have DLC, which, needless to say, won't be the case with everyone (and even if you do, you have to clear a tedious DLC map with no casualties to get it). And that's on top of the opportunity cost.

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

4 chapters of 3 levels per chapter = 12 level ups, level 13, she's already better than Takumi. That's only giving her 3 levels in her paralogue with low level ennemies that barely give more than 2 level ups to Silas except the boss. It's a waste of exp to give 2 lv ups to Silas with the normal ennemies, just give the kills of the western and northern parts to Mozu, all the rushing faceless to the unit youwant to train on the way to save Mozu, and chip damage either with Mozu or with the one you want to train that's not her. She'll automatically get 4-5 level ups just like that, which leads her to level 14-15 with 3 level ups per story chapter. She's your best boss killer after little training BTW, you know the same way Rutger, who doesn't seem all that amazing on paper, who's the only unit able to dislay decent hit rates on bosses? Well, Mozu doesn't have to take a counter from the bosses, she doesn't take long before she doubles them, and can abuse attack stance if needed to chip the boss for free. She has average defensive stats alongside excellent offence (50% str without class growths, 65% in archer, 60% in villager, 75% spd in villager, 80% in archer, 55% def in both, 40% res in both, 50% HP in both, 70% skl in villager, 75% in archer, 75% luck in villager, 55% in archer, she literally has 50% HP as her worst physical growth, anything else is higher than 60%).

 I am not using her like any other combat unit, I am using her like the player phase killer that she is after a few level ups, and those level ups are the easiest to get from your whole party since no one else starts lv 1 except your servant who could be level 5 already and only needs to heal in order to gain exp. She has a map made esecially for her to catch up while other units get much less exp per fight/kill than she does, and they have half of the map to grow before you even reach Mozu so it's a non factor, and a good long term unit gaining 5 level ups is far superior to an average unit gaining 2 level ups and not bringing much long term.

Silas is a slowpoke (yes slower than Subaki, -2 speed with +1 base level and no darting blow will never catch up with Subaki's speed, not with a 10 or 15% higher speed growth and 1 less level to grow, and people already trash on Subaki for being slow), Oboro is even slower than Silas, she only enjoys a higher base speed but it's nothing amazing, 13 spd won't get her in doubling range against more than 1-3rd of the ennemies in the game, to reach 50% doubling she needs a +4 spd pair up for the whole game and it hurts both her attack and her def/res she needs 1 spd tonic per chapter to double more than half of the ennemies with a Hinata, Kaze, Saizo or Ryoma pair up (no support ranks).

 Do you realize that I didn't particularly favor her, I just distributed my ressources the best way to have a brighter future. Mozu being one of the 2 best non prepromotes with Azama, who deosn't need anything else than waiting for promotion to be god, is the best unit to use your early seal on. Takumi one shoots them, good, now I just proved you that Mozu or Setsuna can do the same (Setsuna needing a strength pair up) while also being able to double everyone but the ninjas in this chapter, withou any speed bonus while Takumi needs artificial boosts to his speed for the whole game to be able to double less than 50% of the ennemies, while these 2 do it without anything but some level ups. Takumi is a ressource sponge if you want him to be more than an occasional help, Mozu is a MVP, see the difference? MVP vs occasional help?

Subaki wasn't designed for combat even though I find him salvageable thanks to darting blow and hybrid acceptable growths alongside good def for a peg and only ninjas and Takumi/Mozu/Hana match him in skill so he's as accurate and susceptible to proc skills than the most skill oriented classes while being a flyer, + access to kinshi to help his MT problems with yumi even though he's far from Mozu/Takumi in raw damage and lower than Mozu in speed even though he matches Takumi's speed without darting blow and is faster than Takumi for around 25 levels with darting blow until level 20/10-15 promoted.

 So, who else would you class change? Paladin Jakob is not needed at all, he might even end up slower than Silas, or weaker, or anything since he's very prone to RNG screwing (very low GR with nothing impressive in his base stats, no 1-2 doubling weapon access, etc.), Corrin is worse in any non promoted class than in his/her base class since dragonstone is all he/she's good at with almost 0 personal base stats to benefit from in another class and his class being a jack of all trades leadin him/her to have good average stats to go into better promoted classes than LOLHoshido noble. MU skills can be bought from 40% of the castles in my castle battles/visits ranking for little gold and 0 effort other than setting a wi fi connection to your 3DS and using it when you start a new file, so there's no use for reclassing into a class where he/she will loose dragonstone access and have worse stats. Most of the good skill setups are free to get because the players were kind enough to set a non attacking team for defense so you just rush the throne. You can get aptitude or Recover from like 50% of these castles on Corrin without any effort, aptitude might cost too much so you just go for recover and dragonstone Corrin is fine for all of the time not promoted.

 At the end, Mozu is the only good candidate for the seal you get from your shop (not even suggesting my castle shops where you can get as much as you have gold and you can also have unlimited gold in Hoshido with little effort, and gold DLC costs like 2$, I think if you bought all 3 routes, you're not afraid of adding 2$ to farm some gold to get forges and seals if you don't spit on wi fi stuff, since free to pay DLC can be used as much as you want). Mozu doesn't need any stat bonus item to be good and she'l much less prone to RNG screwage than anyone else (except Azama) due to having amazing growths. You could also let someone else use the second seal and give her a DLC class which will make her your best unit in little more than 3 level ups and she'll become your MVP for the hole game.

Why her and not Jakob? Jakob is level 21+ when in a DLC class, he looses the benefit of being a promoted class with normal exp since now he exp like a promoted unit (I've tried it, I've been really deceived) so he becomes instantly worse than anyone else.

Why not Silas? Because he still is a jack of all trades, master of none, also because he is no more a tank with less def growth which isn't too bad at first but might end up throwing the unit later into the game. He still isn't anything amazing as he remains Silas and won't ever be Ryoma.

 Why not Kaze? Because Kaze is worse than Mozu in anything but HP (5%), overkill spd (10%) and res (15%), everything else is worse than Mozu, especially def (20%).

Why not Hana? Because she's much squishier than Mozu.

Why not Hinoka? She looses fyling utility and her probably best class is already in her second class option. She's still inferior to Mozu in everything but speed and magical bulk. She has no interest in DLC classes, except maybe dark flyer if you want her to use the bolt naginata, which is accessible after like chapter 13 has been completed.

Etc

 + you have 2 of each DLC class promotion items from bonus route, 1 great lord promotion item...it's not like you're short on options for each gender. Few units are good at ballistician, only Takumi was made for it, which leaves the archer class free to use for a faster unit, like Mozu or Setsuna. Takumi as a ballistician can soften the ennemies for the whole game so your PP is more efficient. It's clearly his best role and biggest contribution (and he has the skill to use the ballista).

Keep your stat boosters for good units who need them, save yourself the trouble of using average units who need several stat boosters very claimed in the party, by using units who don't need them. Mozu doesn't need stat boosters, all she needs is one seal, and even without it she's better than several units in the party (yes, in villager, it doesn't change her hp, def, res, only +5% str, skl and spd and +15% luck, base stats are about the same, the major difference is naginata vs yumi).

 Now argue all you want, it doesn't change the facts, Mozu has near perfect availability, can benefit from any class from level 1 to level 99 promoted, use any physical weapon with perfect performance, she outspeeds more than 2/3rds of Hoshido cast (which tells a lot considering Hoshido is the fastest cast on average in FE history) and the longer she's used the more OP she becomes, a real MVP for many players who invested 2000 gold into her at the beginning of the game and got carried by this little shrimp.

Exp invested in her is beneficial, exp invested in Takumi is near useless since his base stats are all he needs to be useful before he becomes bench warmer or he goes to ballistician to be actually useful. Exp invested into Silas/Oboro gives you a tank that 2RKO ennemies. Exp given to Saizo gives you a jack of all trades. Exp given to Ryoma is a waste before he really gains exp since he can go a long way with bases alone and not hurt your party members by stealing their exp. Exp given to Orochi is a waste. Exp given to Kaze will give you a mage killer that needs a mechanist promotion to stay relevant mid game onwards. Exp given to Kagero gives you a mage killer who can also kill physical ennemies but prefers to stay far away from any physical threat just like Azura.

 That's it.

That's not "beating Takumi with little investment". It's blatant favoritism. Also, comparing her to Rutger is blatantly misguided - he's in a game where accuracy is actually valuable and every boss is on a gate or throne. I never ran into any situation where I was like "I wish I had invested in Mozu" when it came to bosses, as opposed to in FE6, where if you're not using Rutger, some bosses can expect to take a long time to kill, especially on hard mode.

It's not like she's catching up at super speed unless you go completely out of your way to favor her, and why would I when she's hardly worth the hassle?

Silas can actually do damage to non-mages, unlike Subaki, who can count himself lucky if he hits like anything besides a wet noodle.

AKA, babying and blatant favoritism. 

Darting Blow is only once a turn. And doubling the pitiful amount of damage Subaki does still gets you a pitiful amount of damage. He has good skill, but that's about it. And it doesn't really help his case because most enemies don't need overkill skill to have good hit rates on.

Felicia for early Inspiration. Duh! That's like, an easy decision. 

Not that I play as a female Corrin, but I'd much rather have Paladin Jakob than Archer Mozu because Mozu still needs assloads of babying to get anywhere no matter which way you slice it.

False - I regularly class change Felicia, and that doesn't happen.

At least he can punish melee attackers, unlike Mozu, who either does nothing or next to nothing in return. Also, I don't really see the need to have Silas lose his horse.

Once again, Kaze's better off in his native class.

Same as the above two, Hana's best not being class changed.

Sure, but in that sense, the fact she doesn't need it is an advantage because that leaves it for use by someone else who can benefit from it.

Anyone can be good with DLC classes, so Mozu being good with one is nothing special. Also, having a ballistician means I don't have a witch instead, which is a losing trade. Anyway, I don't see why I'd use the cripplingly overspecialized Setsuna or go out of my way to baby Mozu when Takumi can do anything I want an archer to do without all the effort the former two require.

Like Mozu, you mean? 

If you want to talk facts, let me drop another fact on you. Mozu needs blatant favoritism and babying to become anything even remotely resembling usable.

More like, "Mozu needs to be favored at the expense of everyone else to be useful". I don't see the effort as worth it when Takumi comes in powerful out of the box without me needing to slow down in more ways than one just to get to a usable state.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

An "MVP" doesn't start way behind everyone else and require assloads of babying just to become usable. Both of which Mozu does. And if you make her an archer, I don't see her carrying the team because enemies that get in her face go unpunished unless you use one of several weak weapons OR have DLC, which, needless to say, won't be the case with everyone (and even if you do, you have to clear a tedious DLC map with no casualties to get it). And that's on top of the opportunity cost.

That's not "beating Takumi with little investment". It's blatant favoritism. Also, comparing her to Rutger is blatantly misguided - he's in a game where accuracy is actually valuable and every boss is on a gate or throne. I never ran into any situation where I was like "I wish I had invested in Mozu" when it came to bosses, as opposed to in FE6, where if you're not using Rutger, some bosses can expect to take a long time to kill, especially on hard mode.

It's not like she's catching up at super speed unless you go completely out of your way to favor her, and why would I when she's hardly worth the hassle?

Silas can actually do damage to non-mages, unlike Subaki, who can count himself lucky if he hits like anything besides a wet noodle.

AKA, babying and blatant favoritism. 

Darting Blow is only once a turn. And doubling the pitiful amount of damage Subaki does still gets you a pitiful amount of damage. He has good skill, but that's about it. And it doesn't really help his case because most enemies don't need overkill skill to have good hit rates on.

Felicia for early Inspiration. Duh! That's like, an easy decision. 

Not that I play as a female Corrin, but I'd much rather have Paladin Jakob than Archer Mozu because Mozu still needs assloads of babying to get anywhere no matter which way you slice it.

False - I regularly class change Felicia, and that doesn't happen.

At least he can punish melee attackers, unlike Mozu, who either does nothing or next to nothing in return. Also, I don't really see the need to have Silas lose his horse.

Once again, Kaze's better off in his native class.

Same as the above two, Hana's best not being class changed.

Sure, but in that sense, the fact she doesn't need it is an advantage because that leaves it for use by someone else who can benefit from it.

Anyone can be good with DLC classes, so Mozu being good with one is nothing special. Also, having a ballistician means I don't have a witch instead, which is a losing trade. Anyway, I don't see why I'd use the cripplingly overspecialized Setsuna or go out of my way to baby Mozu when Takumi can do anything I want an archer to do without all the effort the former two require.

Like Mozu, you mean? 

If you want to talk facts, let me drop another fact on you. Mozu needs blatant favoritism and babying to become anything even remotely resembling usable.

More like, "Mozu needs to be favored at the expense of everyone else to be useful". I don't see the effort as worth it when Takumi comes in powerful out of the box without me needing to slow down in more ways than one just to get to a usable state.

You speak a lot (or rather write a lot) but you never use numbers to justify yourself. I showed you the numbers. Takumi is better than Mozu in HP. It's his onlt lead forever (maybe 1 or 2 points in skill, which won't change much since they don't have any proc skills). He won't double anything meaningful without help, while Mozu, once she has taken the exp in her paralogue that is only useful for her (like Starburst and me have already explained, she's the only unit in the team gaining enough levels from it to make it useful, since 5-8 levels of 65-80 growth rates is much more meaningful than 3 levels of 30-55%, that's 0.9 to 1.65 points per stat for your units vs 3-7 points of stats nearly everywhere except 40% res and 50% hp for Mozu which is still better than for almost anyone else, except Kaze 60% hp and 55% res and that's it, Corrin will barely gain 1 level in the whole paralogue by soloing it anyway).

Between gaining a unit that can make the game easy (not easier but easY) just by spending a few turns in one map designed especially for it and wasting this map or skipping it to use mediocre filler units like Silas, Oboro, who fight each other (after Silas went from E lances to C on a desert map with several 2 range ennemies and a piss accuracy javelin with his stats that have the same problem as FE8 Forde: being higher level with lower level stats and nothing outstanding for growths) for the guard naginata, that is in consequence not given to Hinoka who becomes instantly squishy (now that she doesn't have 14 def anymore) so they can actually tank something, and you think the initial cost of investing in a good mid-long term unit is a bad idea. Following what you say, everyone has to be Ryoma or Takumi.

Well, too sad you only have 1 Takumi who doesn't translate well into mid-late game since he can't OHKO much against non flyers and non ninja/thieves, and he's very far from doubling without pair up (which IS FAVORITISM FOR THE WHOLE GAME VS 1 MAP OF EXP PREFERENCE FOR THE ONLY UNIT THAN GAINS DECENT EXP FROM IT meaning it's not favoritism for Mozu but only thinking with your head and planning ahead instead of wasting ressources, in this case 7-8 levels for Mozu vs 3 levels for Silas, who will in any case be relegated to pair up bot and replaced by his daughter for players who recruit children, which I don't do most of the time because children paralogues are annoying and too high level for your party), while Mozu only needs the western side of her paralogue to be as strong or better than most of your party members, and she will translate better than these benchwarmers into the mid-late game where Azama, Ryoma and Scarlet will replace them as combat units because they're ready to use without taking any ressource from your party (Azama doesn't take combat exp, Ryoma and Scarlet are already promoted and great at base) and where you'll see that Mozu, an attacker (not a defender) has naturally gotten more kills because she simply ORKO anything in her range.

"And if you make her an archer, I don't see her carrying the team because enemies that get in her face go unpunished unless you use one of several weak weapons" are you really telling me to use an archer for defense? Is it what you say? Or do you say that an archer is useless because it can't counterattack on ennemy phase? Remember Shinon in RD? I remember him. I remember how he helped me a lot by killing stuff in one round, by doubling most ennemies if not all of them, by dodging attacks more often than not, by laughing at ennemies while crushing their soul from outside their range. Mozu is RD Shinon who starts level 1, but unlike him she's here from the beginning and her stats are way better for her game than Shinon's for his game, since Mozu is a jack of all trades, master of speed, skill, very good in strength, good in def (for an offensive unit), she has one of the best avoids in the game without any avoid bonus (don't compare her with Swordmasters who get 10 free avoid on promotion, or master ninjas who get 5, to Ryoma who get 20 free avoid from SM + Raijinto, but to the actual normal cast, that has no avoid bonus, she has good avoid compared with almost all of them and probably beats even Hinata who has 14+1 base speed and +10 avoid from SM plus the spd bonus from promotion, well since she actually gains speed nearly each level up she outclasses him while sharing a very similar def, outclassing him in def too in the long run with 10% more growth in it and if she goes sniper she also gains 4 spd if I remember correctly, which means 6 avoid without counting luck) and she might end up 4th highest def in the game thanks to her 55% growth and level 1 start at 4. It means she has 38 levels to benefit from her 55%, ending up on average with 24.9 def without counting promotion bonus (which should be like 2, bringing her to 26.9 def). She has less def than: Azama, Rinkah, Silas (33 levels of 50% mean 26.5, lol he's barely higher than her without vow of friendship as a paladin, and if he goes great knight he looses part of his movement advantage over the Hoshidans and speed, which hurts him even more since his speed is already so low and shaky) and tied with Oboro, while literally laughing at them in spd/skl.

If you use Silas to tank, then you could use her as well since their def difference is lower than 2 points past level 15, and unlike Silas she doesn't need 3 attacks to kill an Oni savage or 4-5 to kill a GK/general who could wield a beast killer like the first GK in the opera who should be able to OHKO Silas or let him under 5 HP in a 1v1 scenario, while Mozu would not even get attacked by the GK especially if you invested in her since she has the ability to solo kill this annoyance while your other party members play rock paper scissors to decide who will take 50+% of their HP from 1 hit of this guy. Concrete situation exposed. Even if she doesn't kill him, she let him so low that any other unit can kill him and she still is at 2 range for an attack stance in any case (her offence being as good as Takumi's for attack stance and 2x better when directly attacking, Takumi is 67% as useful as her is this situation). Being one of the few units who actualy get kills without spoon feeding it to her past level 10 (while everyone else needs spoon feeding before promotion since none can tank much and none can solo kill much either and none can ORKO in EP at all except very squishy ennemies, and most still need an attack stance to ORKO them), Mozu is naturally higher level than your frontline, thus she naturally reahes prootion time earlier than them, thus she naturally get her 20/1 stats before any of them, meaning...that she naturally snowballs harder than any of them in any part of the game.

Speaking of snowball, do you know the concept? When it starts rolling, it drops snow to grow bigger and bigger and become more and more unstoppable. Well, that's what Mozu and Azama do. Ryoma and Scarlet, on the other hand, are big snowballs from the moment they join, but they were absent for all the early game. Chapter 9 Hoshido would really need some carry one rounding most if not all ennemies, too bad you, Shadow Mir, don't like wasting exp into Mozu who could ORKO all the ennemies outside knights without any effort, be it cavaliers or thieves or mages or whatever, while Kaze and Hinoka can only face the mages and stay safe, Silas is nearly dead after 2 cavalier attacks, and like 1 or 2 damage from dead if a mage + a cavalier attack him in the same turn, Azama at this point only tanks like Silas even if his res is better, Oboro isn't fighting before turn 4, same with Hinata, Subaki didn't have enough time to get enough def/hp to show his spec, Rinkah tanks better than Silas IF YOU USED HER which if I remind isn't the case since I think I remember you calling her garbage because she has no str, although she has +4 innate damage bringing her up to par with average attack units for most of the game while having way more def than these weaklings, so Rinkah is your ONLY option to really tank the cavaliers and the ones with swords could really laugh at her since clubs have shitty accuracy on their own and WTD doesn't help, so she will probably only be a sandbag with very high durability compared with all your party at that point. A good point is Corrin taking damage means Vow of Friendship could activate and make Silas somewhat useful to sandbag and hit on counterattack, but well, Corrin needs to drop to 50% or lower for it to happen and it's risky on this map.

All in all I explained how Archer Mozu isn't a favoritism case but an investment into what will very quickly become the unit who will save your butt from being kicked by annoying ennemies that your frontliners shouldn't tank or disposing of what is in her range, just like Takumi she can OHKO the ninjas in chapter 10, only she can also OHKO/ORKO every ennemy in that chapter without help except the boss who she still kills very quickly if he doesn't have his dual shuriken equipped (does he have 2 shuriken in his inventory? If he does just bait him to use the other shuriken then purify his soul with Mozu, even more with Mozu + Takumi with attack stance and if needed give a 1 range unit the last hit with Mozu in attack stance). When a unit is good at cleaning up and wiping the floor with ennemies' guts, I suggest you use it the way it's intended to be used. Mozu is in this case, Azama too. If you give the exp in an efficent and natural way, Mozu and Azama should be the first promoted units in your party and they'll render the rest of your team near useless (I'd keep Hinoka/Kaze or use Kagero for mage killing though, it's safer).

Getting recover with Azama by the time you can use Ryoma means you have an immortal tank reaping ennemies while a hard to kill dodgetank wipes the floor with ennemies guts in PP and EP and sends the corpses on the ennemies coming next, a wyvern eating ennemies alive and a sniper/kinshi safely disposing of threats from a distance. Rinkah could also get a promotion after lv 2 shop master seals come in play (more def more HP more strength, blacksmih helps her with WT, oni chieftan helps her when she reaches D with hirse spirit making her nearly immune to physical attacks) as well as the ninja you chose to raise (in this case I don't need a mediocre physical tank so it'll be Kaze or Kagero, the latter only needing to grow speed to be better than the former since Kagero starts with Kaze's str cap at level 10, she even enjoys a str cap 5 points higher than him to ensure she kills mages like flies).

Argue all you want Shadow Mir, I use numbers to prove my points, you just deny everything because you think a tiny investment is not a good thing compared with staying with mediocre pawns for 40% of the game before your MVPs are playable. Continue to loose turns by not using 10 turns to train Mozu in a chapter designed just for that, after what she can hold her own and outclass your other units really fast, and snowball into the mid late game with potentially more attack than Ryoma (whose sword doesn't have that much MT and whose +4 str means as much as her quick draw, meaning...yes, Mozu with a silver bow has about 4 attack over Ryoma, more with forges, she is as fast as him in kinshi and faster than him in sniper, and with lv 2 forge she can even get crit bonus from forged silver yumi for even more chance to deal overkill damage (I'd like to see you actually looking at a 20/4 sniper Mozu with a +4 silver yumi's 24 MT that's only in play for fun, from gold grinding with a unit one would not use in the main game so it's not affecting your exp distribution, just the fun of having an overkill archer who could do the same without forging but it would be less funny to watch than 16 unneeded damage from forges and doubling and the fun of seeing her crit for 100+ damage).

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How can an unit save more than 50 turns in a game that is beatable in less than 100? I think not even using Seth compared to not using Seth would lead to a 50 turns difference. 

A player phase unit that can kill an enemy per turn can hardly save 15 turns over a playtrough, and even if she can, it's just enought to break even. In general the biggest turn savers are EP units. 

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On 10/13/2019 at 2:49 PM, Seafarer said:

...now you're being intellectually dishonest by putting words in my mouth. I'm not arguing that Silas and Sophie are bad, or that Xander is necessary to beat the game, or that you're playing the game wrong, or even that Xander is good.

I said that saying Silas is better than Xander while handicapping Xander by denying him a resource that nobody else competes for is unfair to Xander.

@Flere210 The point is more that it's a comparison between units with similar roles (so Lewyn vs. other infantry mages : Xander vs. other cavalry). I guess I wasn't clear on that one.

Jumping in late but...

Yeah MN+Wyvern Silias is certainly a thing and he very much outclasses xandyman at-join.

Ryoma runs into similar issues with Silias being excessively broken in BR, but more so because BR is easy enough for Kaze/Saizo to do Silias things.

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18 hours ago, Flere210 said:

How can an unit save more than 50 turns in a game that is beatable in less than 100? I think not even using Seth compared to not using Seth would lead to a 50 turns difference. 

A player phase unit that can kill an enemy per turn can hardly save 15 turns over a playtrough, and even if she can, it's just enought to break even. In general the biggest turn savers are EP units. 

I don't know exactly, maybe it's a hyperbole, in any case, having a PP unit who can kill as any ennemies as she has turns is very beneficial to the team. If Azura refreshes units who can't solo kill anything like Silas etc. she is wasted, if Azura refreshes a unti who will guarantee a kill it's less ennemies to face, + archer Mozu is further from the front line than Silas and co, meaning Azura is less exposed by refreshing an archer than by refreshing a frontliner. Mages being what they are, understand dead weight, archers are the only reliable killers for player phase and Mozu is the most efficient archer since she has Setsuna level speed with more damage than Takumi even before promotion, and more def/res than Takumi, her only flow being HP (and if you give her a seraph robe she's fine for the whole game, but you could give it to...not Azama because he already is close to his caps naturally, so let's say...Scarlet? Seems like she would benefit from more raw tanking since her growths are more attack-oriented).

By the way, even if she doesn't directly saves a turn (and she will save turns due to her being one of the best immobile bosses killers), she can save you resets because your frontline is so weak in this game that they want some help more often than not. Thus I use only strong frontliners like Azama who doesn't need anyone from the moment he get a weapon, Ryoma who only needs healing once in a while to be sure and Scarlet who comes relevant and has enough GR to stay this way. Corrin dragonstone can also be part of the frontliners. If that thing's force deployed, might as well be useful for something...like giving Scarlet a good class as a good use...

Edited by mangasdeouf
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20 hours ago, Flere210 said:

How can an unit save more than 50 turns in a game that is beatable in less than 100? I think not even using Seth compared to not using Seth would lead to a 50 turns difference. 

A player phase unit that can kill an enemy per turn can hardly save 15 turns over a playtrough, and even if she can, it's just enought to break even. In general the biggest turn savers are EP units. 

He most likely meant "battles" and not "turns." And Archer Mozu does indeed save many battles, because there are very, very few enemy units in Conquest which she does one-round; she is a Delete Button. How many of these battles translate into whole turns is difficult to say because it depends on the play style. Some like to bait with tanks as much as possible (and thus use more turns), others lure enemy packs and wipe them all on Player Phase, and others will go directly towards the objective ignoring everything in between.

I am not so sure that Enemy Phase units save more turns than Player Phase ones. Not in Conquest at least, and not on a normal run, for the common Enemy Phase units need a lot of tweaks to one-round or one-hit a lot of enemies.

A common scenario: Your party is in front of an enemy pack, and if you advance then another enemy pack will move towards you, which would be more than your units can chew. You want to wipe the first enemy pack as fast as possible so that you can advance and face the next enemy pack. In this case, the number of battles against the first enemy pack is directly linked to the number of turns that you will use, because your party will only march forward after dispatching the first pack. And this is precisely when a unit like Archer Mozu can certainly save entire turns, for you can assign her the strongest enemies and she will take care of them faster than any of your other units could. Instead of sending two or three units to take care of a strong enemy, you just need to send Archer Mozu. This frees those units and allows them to attack others or take a recovery action. After all, the faster you kill the first pack, the faster you advance and the less turns you will use.
(The exact same principle applies to Ophelia, whose offensive power is even greater. Bur her targeting Resistance is complementary [and not mutually exclusive] to Archer Mozu.)

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13 minutes ago, starburst said:

He most likely meant "battles" and not "turns." And Archer Mozu does indeed save many battles, because there are very, very few enemy units in Conquest which she does one-round; she is a Delete Button. How many of these battles translate into whole turns is difficult to say because it depends on the play style. Some like to bait with tanks as much as possible (and thus use more turns), others lure enemy packs and wipe them all on Player Phase, and others will go directly towards the objective ignoring everything in between.

I am not so sure that Enemy Phase units save more turns than Player Phase ones. Not in Conquest at least, and not on a normal run, for the common Enemy Phase units need a lot of tweaks to one-round or one-hit a lot of enemies.

A common scenario: Your party is in front of an enemy pack, and if you advance then another enemy pack will move towards you, which would be more than your units can chew. You want to wipe the first enemy pack as fast as possible so that you can advance and face the next enemy pack. In this case, the number of battles against the first enemy pack is directly linked to the number of turns that you will use, because your party will only march forward after dispatching the first pack. And this is precisely when a unit like Archer Mozu can certainly save entire turns, for you can assign her the strongest enemies and she will take care of them faster than any of your other units could. Instead of sending two or three units to take care of a strong enemy, you just need to send Archer Mozu. This frees those units and allows them to attack others or take a recovery action. After all, the faster you kill the first pack, the faster you advance and the less turns you will use.
(The exact same principle applies to Ophelia, whose offensive power is even greater. Bur her targeting Resistance is complementary [and not mutually exclusive] to Archer Mozu.)

Exactly my way of thinking, I think you summed it up quite well. But if it applies to CQ, then it applies to BR as well. Especially with Hoshido armory allowing you to use yumi without needing to go wi fi shopping. Still buying a silver yumi from the moment you can use one (or even before to have it ready) is really the best use of wi fi shopping I found (class changing infinitely is less useful than increasing your damage to unsustainable amounts). This and enjoying the free forging ressources and other route weapons/forges. In many cases I find swords better than katana, because they don't lower any stat for only 1 point of speed, except when I use my Keaton friend gotten from a high level castle with max stats and statues, salvage blow combined with his personal allow me to get free irons all day long just by slaying randoms (+ profiteer to gain more gold to buy steel/silver weapons without DLC or just to try and spawn a ninja/thief encounter).

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23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

You speak a lot (or rather write a lot) but you never use numbers to justify yourself. I showed you the numbers. Takumi is better than Mozu in HP. It's his onlt lead forever (maybe 1 or 2 points in skill, which won't change much since they don't have any proc skills). He won't double anything meaningful without help, while Mozu, once she has taken the exp in her paralogue that is only useful for her (like Starburst and me have already explained, she's the only unit in the team gaining enough levels from it to make it useful, since 5-8 levels of 65-80 growth rates is much more meaningful than 3 levels of 30-55%, that's 0.9 to 1.65 points per stat for your units vs 3-7 points of stats nearly everywhere except 40% res and 50% hp for Mozu which is still better than for almost anyone else, except Kaze 60% hp and 55% res and that's it, Corrin will barely gain 1 level in the whole paralogue by soloing it anyway).

That's funny, considering it's coming from you - you love posting huge walls of text that end up burying your points underneath the rubble that is irrelevant nonsense. I prefer to just get to the goddamn point.

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

 Between gaining a unit that can make the game easy (not easier but easY) just by spending a few turns in one map designed especially for it and wasting this map or skipping it to use mediocre filler units like Silas, Oboro, who fight each other (after Silas went from E lances to C on a desert map with several 2 range ennemies and a piss accuracy javelin with his stats that have the same problem as FE8 Forde: being higher level with lower level stats and nothing outstanding for growths) for the guard naginata, that is in consequence not given to Hinoka who becomes instantly squishy (now that she doesn't have 14 def anymore) so they can actually tank something, and you think the initial cost of investing in a good mid-long term unit is a bad idea. Following what you say, everyone has to be Ryoma or Takumi.

See why I cry favoritism? No one in their right mind would see this as legitimate unless they were a Mozu fanboy (and besides, I could also argue boss abuse as legitimate if this was). Besides, I VERY highly doubt that by the time you complete chapter 7, everyone else would be so high a level that they're not getting much experience from the Faceless, EXCEPT in Revelation, and even there, I'd wait because the next chapter also practically mandates heavy use of Corrin, to say nothing of only having 4 unit slots. Adding Mozu isn't going to help my chances there, considering that she can't take hits well.  Anyway, focusing only on the long term is short sighted, because you must get through the earlygame before the midgame and lategame are relevant. It's why I'd choose Bulbasaur in the Gen 1 games over Charmander - even if Charizard is better in the long run (which I'm not sure it is), Bulbasaur and its evolution line do well against most major opponents (the only poor matchups it has are Sabrina and Blaine), as opposed to Charmander being weak against Misty and not having good matchups against most other gym leaders.

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Well, too sad you only have 1 Takumi who doesn't translate well into mid-late game since he can't OHKO much against non flyers and non ninja/thieves, and he's very far from doubling without pair up (which IS FAVORITISM FOR THE WHOLE GAME VS 1 MAP OF EXP PREFERENCE FOR THE ONLY UNIT THAN GAINS DECENT EXP FROM IT meaning it's not favoritism for Mozu but only thinking with your head and planning ahead instead of wasting ressources, in this case 7-8 levels for Mozu vs 3 levels for Silas, who will in any case be relegated to pair up bot and replaced by his daughter for players who recruit children, which I don't do most of the time because children paralogues are annoying and too high level for your party), while Mozu only needs the western side of her paralogue to be as strong or better than most of your party members, and she will translate better than these benchwarmers into the mid-late game where Azama, Ryoma and Scarlet will replace them as combat units because they're ready to use without taking any ressource from your party (Azama doesn't take combat exp, Ryoma and Scarlet are already promoted and great at base) and where you'll see that Mozu, an attacker (not a defender) has naturally gotten more kills because she simply ORKO anything in her range.

Once again, I seriously doubt you'll have everyone you're using so high level that they're getting next to no experience from the Faceless in her paralogue by the time you complete chapter 7, outside of Revelation, where it would be foolish to do her paralogue immediately anyway. And I must take issue with you speaking as though she's entitled to most of the kills in her paralogue when she does next to no damage to them.

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

 "And if you make her an archer, I don't see her carrying the team because enemies that get in her face go unpunished unless you use one of several weak weapons" are you really telling me to use an archer for defense? Is it what you say? Or do you say that an archer is useless because it can't counterattack on ennemy phase? Remember Shinon in RD? I remember him. I remember how he helped me a lot by killing stuff in one round, by doubling most ennemies if not all of them, by dodging attacks more often than not, by laughing at ennemies while crushing their soul from outside their range. Mozu is RD Shinon who starts level 1, but unlike him she's here from the beginning and her stats are way better for her game than Shinon's for his game, since Mozu is a jack of all trades, master of speed, skill, very good in strength, good in def (for an offensive unit), she has one of the best avoids in the game without any avoid bonus (don't compare her with Swordmasters who get 10 free avoid on promotion, or master ninjas who get 5, to Ryoma who get 20 free avoid from SM + Raijinto, but to the actual normal cast, that has no avoid bonus, she has good avoid compared with almost all of them and probably beats even Hinata who has 14+1 base speed and +10 avoid from SM plus the spd bonus from promotion, well since she actually gains speed nearly each level up she outclasses him while sharing a very similar def, outclassing him in def too in the long run with 10% more growth in it and if she goes sniper she also gains 4 spd if I remember correctly, which means 6 avoid without counting luck) and she might end up 4th highest def in the game thanks to her 55% growth and level 1 start at 4. It means she has 38 levels to benefit from her 55%, ending up on average with 24.9 def without counting promotion bonus (which should be like 2, bringing her to 26.9 def). She has less def than: Azama, Rinkah, Silas (33 levels of 50% mean 26.5, lol he's barely higher than her without vow of friendship as a paladin, and if he goes great knight he looses part of his movement advantage over the Hoshidans and speed, which hurts him even more since his speed is already so low and shaky) and tied with Oboro, while literally laughing at them in spd/skl.

Way to put words in my mouth. My point is that if she's a player phase unit, which you yourself admit she is, she can't carry the team because anyone I expect to carry the team must be able to put in work on the more important phase - Enemy Phase. Also, comparing Mozu to RD Shinon is delusional - what makes RD Shinon good isn't his growths (though his growths aren't bad). It's his bases and high level. Last I checked, Mozu doesn't have either in her corner. I would consider PoR Rolf a more apt comparison. Or, for a Pokemon example, Magikarp. In all instances, I find the investment to be too much for the payoff.

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

 If you use Silas to tank, then you could use her as well since their def difference is lower than 2 points past level 15, and unlike Silas she doesn't need 3 attacks to kill an Oni savage or 4-5 to kill a GK/general who could wield a beast killer like the first GK in the opera who should be able to OHKO Silas or let him under 5 HP in a 1v1 scenario, while Mozu would not even get attacked by the GK especially if you invested in her since she has the ability to solo kill this annoyance while your other party members play rock paper scissors to decide who will take 50+% of their HP from 1 hit of this guy. Concrete situation exposed. Even if she doesn't kill him, she let him so low that any other unit can kill him and she still is at 2 range for an attack stance in any case (her offence being as good as Takumi's for attack stance and 2x better when directly attacking, Takumi is 67% as useful as her is this situation). Being one of the few units who actualy get kills without spoon feeding it to her past level 10 (while everyone else needs spoon feeding before promotion since none can tank much and none can solo kill much either and none can ORKO in EP at all except very squishy ennemies, and most still need an attack stance to ORKO them), Mozu is naturally higher level than your frontline, thus she naturally reahes prootion time earlier than them, thus she naturally get her 20/1 stats before any of them, meaning...that she naturally snowballs harder than any of them in any part of the game.

Assuming she's going to be at equal level to him when she starts at level 1 and he starts at level 6 in Birthright and Conquest (to say nothing of him being able to level up some in the latter before she even joins) is foolishness - it implies you either sandbagged him, favoured her, or both. Also, last I checked, there's no anti-armor bow, while there is an Armorslayer you should have by the opera chapter - Great Knights are weak against anti-armor AND anti-cavalry weapons, remember. Re: Rinkah, she has a hard time getting kills early on because her offense sucks, and it doesn't help that she has two chapters where she's WTD'd against everything (chapter 5, where everything uses red weapons, and chapter 6, where she cannot hope to defeat Xander, and also faces WTD against Leo and Camilla; don't get me started on Revelation). Having a bad start is a bad thing when you consider Early Game Hell is a thing.

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

 Speaking of snowball, do you know the concept? When it starts rolling, it drops snow to grow bigger and bigger and become more and more unstoppable. Well, that's what Mozu and Azama do. Ryoma and Scarlet, on the other hand, are big snowballs from the moment they join, but they were absent for all the early game. Chapter 9 Hoshido would really need some carry one rounding most if not all ennemies, too bad you, Shadow Mir, don't like wasting exp into Mozu who could ORKO all the ennemies outside knights without any effort, be it cavaliers or thieves or mages or whatever, while Kaze and Hinoka can only face the mages and stay safe, Silas is nearly dead after 2 cavalier attacks, and like 1 or 2 damage from dead if a mage + a cavalier attack him in the same turn, Azama at this point only tanks like Silas even if his res is better, Oboro isn't fighting before turn 4, same with Hinata, Subaki didn't have enough time to get enough def/hp to show his spec, Rinkah tanks better than Silas IF YOU USED HER which if I remind isn't the case since I think I remember you calling her garbage because she has no str, although she has +4 innate damage bringing her up to par with average attack units for most of the game while having way more def than these weaklings, so Rinkah is your ONLY option to really tank the cavaliers and the ones with swords could really laugh at her since clubs have shitty accuracy on their own and WTD doesn't help, so she will probably only be a sandbag with very high durability compared with all your party at that point. A good point is Corrin taking damage means Vow of Friendship could activate and make Silas somewhat useful to sandbag and hit on counterattack, but well, Corrin needs to drop to 50% or lower for it to happen and it's risky on this map.

I know what snowballing is, thank you very much. I saw it many times on the Awakening board. I don't see Mozu snowballing unless you intentionally slow down to a glacial pace just to feed her most of the kills (AKA, babying and favoritism). Also, it seems you willfully fail to grasp that growths cannot be relied on to salvage a bad unit, because they're subject to the whims of the RNG - even Mozu with her good growths is susceptible to bad level ups. And bad level ups hurt more if you have bad bases than if you have good bases.

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

 All in all I explained how Archer Mozu isn't a favoritism case but an investment into what will very quickly become the unit who will save your butt from being kicked by annoying ennemies that your frontliners shouldn't tank or disposing of what is in her range, just like Takumi she can OHKO the ninjas in chapter 10, only she can also OHKO/ORKO every ennemy in that chapter without help except the boss who she still kills very quickly if he doesn't have his dual shuriken equipped (does he have 2 shuriken in his inventory? If he does just bait him to use the other shuriken then purify his soul with Mozu, even more with Mozu + Takumi with attack stance and if needed give a 1 range unit the last hit with Mozu in attack stance). When a unit is good at cleaning up and wiping the floor with ennemies' guts, I suggest you use it the way it's intended to be used. Mozu is in this case, Azama too. If you give the exp in an efficent and natural way, Mozu and Azama should be the first promoted units in your party and they'll render the rest of your team near useless (I'd keep Hinoka/Kaze or use Kagero for mage killing though, it's safer).

There you go again, displaying blatant favoritism as though all that has Mozu's name on it. Don't you ever learn? I ask again, why in the seven hells should I go out of my way to baby Mozu? Or choose Azama as my healer when Sakura is better owing to a useful personal skill, especially knowing that Azama comes much later in Revelation (chapter 16, which must be done consecutively along with chapter 17, by which point Sakura is most likely promoted)?

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

 Getting recover with Azama by the time you can use Ryoma means you have an immortal tank reaping ennemies while a hard to kill dodgetank wipes the floor with ennemies guts in PP and EP and sends the corpses on the ennemies coming next, a wyvern eating ennemies alive and a sniper/kinshi safely disposing of threats from a distance. Rinkah could also get a promotion after lv 2 shop master seals come in play (more def more HP more strength, blacksmih helps her with WT, oni chieftan helps her when she reaches D with hirse spirit making her nearly immune to physical attacks) as well as the ninja you chose to raise (in this case I don't need a mediocre physical tank so it'll be Kaze or Kagero, the latter only needing to grow speed to be better than the former since Kagero starts with Kaze's str cap at level 10, she even enjoys a str cap 5 points higher than him to ensure she kills mages like flies).

I don't see Azama getting Renewal by the time Ryoma comes along unless you promote him early,  at which point you hamstring his potential. Rinkah, I already explained (ergo, her bad start discourages me from investing in her, and it doesn't help that Oni Chieftain is part of the proud tradition of subpar hybrid classes). Regarding the ninjas, I don't see the point of bring up caps because they aren't gonna be relevant for very long, if at all.

23 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Argue all you want Shadow Mir, I use numbers to prove my points, you just deny everything because you think a tiny investment is not a good thing compared with staying with mediocre pawns for 40% of the game before your MVPs are playable. Continue to loose turns by not using 10 turns to train Mozu in a chapter designed just for that, after what she can hold her own and outclass your other units really fast, and snowball into the mid late game with potentially more attack than Ryoma (whose sword doesn't have that much MT and whose +4 str means as much as her quick draw, meaning...yes, Mozu with a silver bow has about 4 attack over Ryoma, more with forges, she is as fast as him in kinshi and faster than him in sniper, and with lv 2 forge she can even get crit bonus from forged silver yumi for even more chance to deal overkill damage (I'd like to see you actually looking at a 20/4 sniper Mozu with a +4 silver yumi's 24 MT that's only in play for fun, from gold grinding with a unit one would not use in the main game so it's not affecting your exp distribution, just the fun of having an overkill archer who could do the same without forging but it would be less funny to watch than 16 unneeded damage from forges and doubling and the fun of seeing her crit for 100+ damage).

You have the audacity to talk about "tiny investment" when you talk about feeding Mozu most of the kills in her paralogue? Way to completely contradict yourself there. If anything, trying to raise Mozu would likely force me to slow down to a glacial pace because she's fragile and weak starting out. Also, a +4 Silver Yumi would be unrealistic at that point because without DLC, you'd probably bankrupt yourself (silver yumis cost 4,000 gold), and that's ignoring the other issues with the forge system, ergo, that if your castle doesn't have the appropriate material, in this case jade, your forging attempts slow down considerably. And that's saying nothing of the disadvantages that silvers have in this game; I'll pass on a chance to automatically lose whatever fights I get into or having to deal with the debuffs silver weapons carry, thank you very much (having to worry about enemy debuffs is enough for me).

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

Exactly my way of thinking, I think you summed it up quite well. But if it applies to CQ, then it applies to BR as well. Especially with Hoshido armory allowing you to use yumi without needing to go wi fi shopping. Still buying a silver yumi from the moment you can use one (or even before to have it ready) is really the best use of wi fi shopping I found (class changing infinitely is less useful than increasing your damage to unsustainable amounts). This and enjoying the free forging ressources and other route weapons/forges. In many cases I find swords better than katana, because they don't lower any stat for only 1 point of speed, except when I use my Keaton friend gotten from a high level castle with max stats and statues, salvage blow combined with his personal allow me to get free irons all day long just by slaying randoms (+ profiteer to gain more gold to buy steel/silver weapons without DLC or just to try and spawn a ninja/thief encounter).

I doubt it - considering that without very heavy faovritism, Mozu probably won't measure up to Takumi, which isn't helped by the fact that only silvers, which are impractical, and the Pursuer, which can only be used by Snipers and comes late, are stronger than the Fujin Yumi.

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He most likely meant "battles" and not "turns." And Archer Mozu does indeed save many battles, because there are very, very few enemy units in Conquest which she does one-round; she is a Delete Button. How many of these battles translate into whole turns is difficult to say because it depends on the play style. Some like to bait with tanks as much as possible (and thus use more turns), others lure enemy packs and wipe them all on Player Phase, and others will go directly towards the objective ignoring everything in between.

Going directly to the objective is usually more efficient. Generally we compare units based on that and not based on how they perform when playing more casually.

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I am not so sure that Enemy Phase units save more turns than Player Phase ones. Not in Conquest at least, and not on a normal run, for the common Enemy Phase units need a lot of tweaks to one-round or one-hit a lot of enemies.

It's generally more efficient to pump resources into units that can reliably one round on enemy phase. It's not quite as simple as in some other Fire Emblem games given the strength of enemy units, but it's definitely possible.

 

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Your party is in front of an enemy pack, and if you advance then another enemy pack will move towards you, which would be more than your units can chew.

The solution here is to find a way to engage that second pack even if you don't think it's possible. This would probably go with my last comment better, but it's easier to show you the point this way. Your example and solution assumes that enemies are strong enough that they need to be dealt with piecemeal, but that's not true.

 

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Way to put words in my mouth. My point is that if she's a player phase unit, which you yourself admit she is, she can't carry the team because anyone I expect to carry the team must be able to put in work on the more important phase - Enemy Phase. Also, comparing Mozu to RD Shinon is delusional - what makes RD Shinon good isn't his growths (though his growths aren't bad). It's his bases and high level. Last I checked, Mozu doesn't have either in her corner. I would consider PoR Rolf a more apt comparison. Or, for a Pokemon example, Magikarp. In all instances, I find the investment to be too much for the payoff.

To be honest I don't think that Rolf and Gyarados are good examples. Rolf is a bad unit in Path of Radiance no matter what. Being locked to 2 range forever in that game really sucks. It's more forgivable in this game because it's harder to get units to the point where they can trivialize enemy phase; casual players will find Mozu more useful. Gyarados on the other hand can solo several Pokemon games on his own with little effort once he gets going, and this is something that Sniper Mozu can't do.

Edited by samthedigital
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12 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

To be honest I don't think that Rolf and Gyarados are good examples. Rolf is a bad unit in Path of Radiance no matter what. Being locked to 2 range forever in that game really sucks. It's more forgivable in this game because it's harder to get units to the point where they can trivialize enemy phase; casual players will find Mozu more useful. Gyarados on the other hand can solo several Pokemon games on his own with little effort once he gets going, and this is something that Sniper Mozu can't do.

Point taken, but I thought of them more because they require a lot of effort to get going too than anything else. That was what I had in mind, even though my philosophy admittedly was flawed.

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Point taken, but I thought of them more because they require a lot of effort to get going too than anything else. That was what I had in mind, even though it admittedly was flawed.

Yeah, to be sure I'm not disagreeing with you on the whole. I mainly quoted that because it gives people a good idea of what I think of Mozu as a unit. This topic is a huge mess though, and the original point of the topic has been completely derailed. It doesn't help that fundamentally speaking a lot of people here don't understand how to play efficiently.

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Argue all you want Shadow Mir, I use numbers to prove my points, you just deny everything because you think a tiny investment is not a good thing compared with staying with mediocre pawns for 40% of the game before your MVPs are playable. Continue to loose turns by not using 10 turns to train Mozu in a chapter designed just for that, after what she can hold her own and outclass your other units really fast, and snowball into the mid late game with potentially more attack than Ryoma (whose sword doesn't have that much MT and whose +4 str means as much as her quick draw, meaning...

This is a good example of that. LTC runs don't even go to that map because it wastes turns. Mozu is not a magical unit that turns 1 turn clears into 0 turn clears. If we go into more paralogues and spend time making child units it's just going to let us snowball select units more, or at the very least it's going to normalize units and make unit selection less important because of the increased exp gain.

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13 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Going directly to the objective is usually more efficient. Generally we compare units based on that and not based on how they perform when playing more casually.

Of course it is more efficient to finish Conquest's Chapter 20 in five turns and Chapter 17 in two. Not doing exactly that, however, does not mean that you are an inefficient player. There are many ways to do it in between.

 

19 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

It's generally more efficient to pump resources into units that can reliably one round on enemy phase. It's not quite as simple as in some other Fire Emblem games given the strength of enemy units, but it's definitely possible.

Sure, make the already strong units even stronger. I get it, I find it boring on Conquest, though, for I can already complete it in other ways on Hard and Lunatic. We can play a turns challenge if you want, but I prefer other challenges (like using less units or banning "backpacks" and royals.)

 

18 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

The solution here is to find a way to engage that second pack even if you don't think it's possible. This would probably go with my last comment better, but it's easier to show you the point this way. Your example and solution assumes that enemies are strong enough that they need to be dealt with piecemeal, but that's not true.

We would need to set an exact situation, then. But if your solution hints at dropping a Sol Master Ninja Xander with a "backpack", or a Vantage/ Trample/ Life or Death Wyvern Lord Camilla in the middle of the area between both enemy packs, I am not interested. Not because it is not efficient or because I do not know how to do it, but precisely because it is the predictable, more restrictive suggestion. I have more fun with Wyvern Elise or Sniper Effie and such.

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We would need to set an exact situation, then. But if your solution hints at dropping a Sol Master Ninja Xander with a "backpack", or a Vantage/ Trample/ Life or Death Wyvern Lord Camilla in the middle of the area between both enemy packs, I am not interested. Not because it is not efficient or because I do not know how to do it, but precisely because it is the predictable, more restrictive suggestion. I have more fun with Wyvern Elise or Sniper Effie and such.

Yeah, there is a lot more variety if you don't try to play as efficiently as possible, but Mozu is considered a bad unit mostly because she can't contribute much with the most efficient play. If you don't take it to the extreme she's fine; I don't disagree with you there. I don't think that units really need fixing in this game. It's just that more strategies work when we don't consider the extremes, so it tends to normalize units as I mentioned previously.

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15 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I don't think that units really need fixing in this game.

Is this thinking of the game as a whole or of its three campaigns? Because I've seen a lot of complaints about how bad the Nohrian units have it in Revelation, and even Conquest and Birthright have their own problem children.

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Is this thinking of the game as a whole or of its three campaigns? Because I've seen a lot of complaints about how bad the Nohrian units have it in Revelation, and even Conquest and Birthright have their own problem children.

I don't care much about child units, but otherwise just this campaign. Rev and Birthright don't hold much interest for me, so I know next to nothing about them.

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4 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I don't care much about child units, but otherwise just this campaign. Rev and Birthright don't hold much interest for me, so I know next to nothing about them.

Okay then. Personally, I find Arthur, Charlotte and Nyx to be really bad compared to everyone else, as far as Conquest goes.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay then. Personally, I find Arthur, Charlotte and Nyx to be really bad compared to everyone else, as far as Conquest goes.

They're not spectacular I guess, but if you're not worried about playing as efficiently as possible you can make them work. I am pretty sure that the developers intended for the player to advance as I described earlier; fighting packs of enemies piecemeal. In that context all of those units can be used rather effectively. Arthur is also ok early on as a pair up bot, so he has that going for him too.

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2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

They're not spectacular I guess, but if you're not worried about playing as efficiently as possible you can make them work. I am pretty sure that the developers intended for the player to advance as I described earlier; fighting packs of enemies piecemeal. In that context all of those units can be used rather effectively. Arthur is also ok early on as a pair up bot, so he has that going for him too.

CQ efficiency exists?

I thought Ch9 killed that years ago.

 

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3 hours ago, samthedigital said:

They're not spectacular I guess, but if you're not worried about playing as efficiently as possible you can make them work. I am pretty sure that the developers intended for the player to advance as I described earlier; fighting packs of enemies piecemeal. In that context all of those units can be used rather effectively. Arthur is also ok early on as a pair up bot, so he has that going for him too.

The issue is, they're all rather unreliable - they all have accuracy problems, and aside from that, Arthur has poor luck (as in rivaling Knoll levels of bad; unfortunately, there's no skill or item that negates critical hits completely in this game), while, while Nyx and Charlotte are glass cannons in a game where glass cannons aren't that good. Also, you gotta admit, if we thought that even minor contributions like being a good pair up bot were enough to consider a unit good, there'd be no bad units in the series.

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Also, you gotta admit, if we thought that even minor contributions like being a good pair up bot were enough to consider a unit good, there'd be no bad units in the series.

Conquest is very player phase heavy unless you know exactly what you're doing. Player phase heavy FE games tend to make it easier on bad units. Besides that Conquest gives us a lot of tools to make use of bad units with stat potions and pairups. Other games do nothing to help bad units when compared to the ones that go into a huge group of enemies and come out alive without having put any resources into them.

 

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CQ efficiency exists?

I thought Ch9 killed that years ago.

Even if it wasn't possible to clear chapter 9 consistently efficiency would still exist. It would just be a little different from other games.

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6 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Even if it wasn't possible to clear chapter 9 consistently efficiency would still exist. It would just be a little different from other games.

The joke here is that CQ is split into maps that are effectively casual in terms of "consistant clears" with little variance due to units used and maps that are simply "free" in terms of turncount and consistency.

Ch9 is the former (unless you're using DK Odin strats with double lunge, but literally nobody does that*) while CH17 is the latter, it's a fixed 2 turn clear wham bam thank you mam.

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In terms of this Mozu and Xander are functionally identical. They're both net neutral units. (Level 1 bowzu orko's pegs in 10. Nobody trains in her join, kinda like how Xander does one significant thing by running right in his join map and punching an archer.

*Enfeeble on a toniced/mealed up DK Odin let's him live 3 archers, kill 1, and lure 2, lunge into room, peace.

Edited by joshcja
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