How do you feel about how Three Houses handled magic and staffs? Would you like to see that system in the future?

[Corrobin]

In Three Houses, like Shadows of Valentia, Magic is learned on a unique, character-by-character basis. Some characters have big spell lists, others have small spell lists.

Staffs, unlike in other FE games where they act as healing/support/utility magic, act as equipment that modifies spells, adding might to attack spells, HP healed, range, hit, etc.

What is your opinion on these changes? Do you like them? Do you think FE should go back to the old ways of using tomes and staffs? Or should this new system be given a shot?

[Alastor15243]

6 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

In Three Houses, like Shadows of Valentia, Magic is learned on a unique, character-by-character basis. Some characters have big spell lists, others have small spell lists.

Staffs, unlike in other FE games where they act as healing/support/utility magic, act as equipment that modifies spells, adding might to attack spells, HP healed, range, hit, etc.

What is your opinion on these changes? Do you like them? Do you think FE should go back to the old ways of using tomes and staffs? Or should this new system be given a shot?

I definitely like it for staves. Status staves and physic are generally way more fun, usable, and realistic to strategize with rather than hoarding forever if you could use them a few times a map instead of just 3-10 times over the course of the whole game. And putting a limit on how much a unit can heal that you can't just buy your way over is definitely an interesting strategic limitation.

 

For combat magic, aside from a similar thing happening with siege tomes as with exotic staves (I like the fact that I feel like I can actually make regular strategic use of them, if just a little per map), I feel it's unnecessarily stifling to mages when it comes to using them for extended periods of time. I felt that oftentimes the charge-doubling classes were really the only ones who could get away with prolonged use of the good spells. You just can't carry as much ammo with you into battle in Three Houses as you can in other games.

[Etrurian emperor]

Three Houses reminded me a lot of Echoes in how it handled magic and I consider that a good thing. Magic as a whole is more versatile than just swinging weapons around and many spells having varied movement range and status effects reflect that.

[Ertrick36]

I preferred the way magic was handled in this game to the whack way it was "balanced" in Fates.  At least, I liked the whole "limited uses per fight" angle where you don't run out of spell uses permanently.  I used to think limiting the number of times you can use a weapon was horrible and that Fates did it best, but now I kind of think the opposite because I found I never used B-rank weaponry simply because it'd stifle my units too much.  I think just as long as weapons can be repaired/replenished, it's a solid system.

I'm not too keen on limited spell lists, though.  I'd like if there could be some system in place to teach characters specific spells, or else just go for a hybrid between this game's spell system and older spell systems where spells would be interchangeable.  Otherwise, you're gonna end up with crap like Hanneman being a better spellcaster than Linhardt or Lorenz simply because he has access to a 1-3 range spell and they don't.

I kinda like the staves, but the issue I have is every magic user with a crest will want Thyrsus and every other magic user will want the Caduceus Staff because out-ranging enemies is so much more beneficial for a mage than small damage/healing boosts.  It's the same reason why the Bow Knight is the best physical cavalry class in the game.

In any event, I definitely think Three Houses did a great job of setting magic apart from physical weapons.  In older FE games, it was, at best, merely a normal weapon that was based on different stats.  In this game, there's enough variance between magic and physical weapons that they truly feel like distinct ways to fight.

[De Geso]

The only thing I'm not crazy about is the number of uses for the early game magic. It doesn't matter late because the maps go by pretty quickly, but early on only having five heals and four thunders can seriously hamper someone's usefulness. This is remedied by chapter 5 or so, though, so it's not so bad.

[Eltosian Kadath]

The number of uses should be tweaked a little (your basic low rank spell should probably be in 15-25 uses range) otherwise I like it. Although If I were to make a suggestion to improve it, have some rather limited items that can add a spell to a characters list, that you get a little more customization with your mages, and if they need to they can gate some spell by chapter as opposed to only level.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I like magic users feeling unique to the physical fighters. Though in the case of three houses and Echoes you probably only noticed because only late game classes allow you to attack with both weapons and magic. If that was the case from the get go like people seem to want, the uniqueness would be lost on us. 

I'm not as much a fan of attack range increasing staves/relics. Thrysius is just way too powerful and you have it for most of the game. I feel like when mages can double and kill as far as an archer/sniper can curved shot then you need to tone it down. The archer classline is further humiliated when their specialty of high hit rates is dwarfed by a mage's ability to ignore terrain. Remember that magic attacks are hitting the lower defense stat most of the time, so I'd definitely give mages standard infantry movement again if it meant taking away their artillery potential via staves. Higher range spells, including meteor, are fine with me on individual spell lists.

[Ashe02]

Yes I would like for them to bring this system back in future games.

But that would also mean they would need to have some sort of class changing system in place, which has been either a hit or miss for me.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Stacy248

[Fabulously Olivier]

Yes, and yes. Please never go back to the old system.

[Flere210]

I think it need some hybridization whit the older one because then you have situations like Annette, that is massively held back by her list and is better of spamming rallies or using a bolt axe+.

[NobodiePichu]

not a fan personally, tomes may have been stupid in the sense of why does book break but it was more versatile and practical as a system and worked into the resource management and allocation i feel is rather important to the series. recharging magic certainly makes things simpler if your looking for speed and efficiency from a player perspective mind, i just ultimately prefer the books personally.

that said, if and when this system sees further use i would prefer that they just let us customize spell lists as opposed giving characters unique spell lists ya cant change. events that let characters learn unique spells could always be a compromise in that regard.

[NinjaMonkey]

4 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Do you think FE should go back to the old ways of using tomes and staffs?

Yes, it should.

[Shrimpica]

1 hour ago, NobodiePichu said:

resource management and allocation i feel is rather important to the series

Rarely was resource managemt ever important in a FE game though. You usally had 'unlimited' (as in you could never run out if you bought what you needed) money anyway.

The only games i remember it being important are FE10 and FE5, and if you capture alot in FE5 like i did, it didn't matter there, either.

[Armagon]

Please never go back to the old way. The Three Houses magic system is my absolute favorite in the series and the only thing that should happen to it is that it should be improved.

[Lightcosmo]

I like the concept, but it feels a little limited to me.

[NobodiePichu]

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Rarely was resource managemt ever important in a FE game though. You usally had 'unlimited' (as in you could never run out if you bought what you needed) money anyway.

The only games i remember it being important are FE10 and FE5, and if you capture alot in FE5 like i did, it didn't matter there, either.

maybe not the most stressful aspects of it but an important one none the less. as you admit, so long as you allocate your money right your probably not going to be short of it in most fe games and thats an aspect of resource management right there. allocation of exp to your units, maintenance and distribution of weapons, stat boosters and other consumables, what units you have and deploy, its all resource management to some degree or another and it all makes a part of the backbone of fe game design. thats why things like auxiliary battles and regenerating spell lists and even the arena are arguably harmful to fe game design because they provide an unlimited resource to the player in a game series traditionally structured with limited resources and making it all count.

now whether or not each fe game is able to do this well or not is a different argument.

granted this is all hyperbolic of me, and honestly my beef with the regenerating spell list mostly just comes from it being functionally identical to tomes in execution but with less freedom of build. at most it lets ya be a bit more liberal using powerful spells but your only suppose to be using those for special occasions anyways.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Per-map uses of limited resources is far more interesting than per-game, which just encourages hoarding. Definitely appreciated that aspect of balancing Physic, Warp, Rescue, Fortify, Meteor, etc.

Spell lists being unique to a character is fine as it increases unit individuality, needing to look up a guide for what a character's spell list is is less fine (even if it brings Serenes Forest more traffic!).

As mentioned I think the earlygame is a bit too harsh on spell limits, mostly just comes up in Chapter 1 though. As you get more spells and leave Commoner/Noble behind, you reach the point where you'll never run out of your basic ammo.

Like others I also appreciate magic and physicals being different besides just "they use different stats in damage calculation", and this game delivers on that well.

[X-Naut]

I think tomes and staffs should return alongside this system. Tomes and staffs could give general access, and alongside tomes learned spells could grant two additional benefits: bypassing the tome/staff rank requirements and giving access to an enhanced version of the spell (replacing tome forges).

5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I'm not as much a fan of attack range increasing staves/relics. Thrysius is just way too powerful and you have it for most of the game. I feel like when mages can double and kill as far as an archer/sniper can curved shot then you need to tone it down. The archer classline is further humiliated when their specialty of high hit rates is dwarfed by a mage's ability to ignore terrain. Remember that magic attacks are hitting the lower defense stat most of the time, so I'd definitely give mages standard infantry movement again if it meant taking away their artillery potential via staves. Higher range spells, including meteor, are fine with me on individual spell lists.

This very much, magic range +whatever needs to go and I feel like even bow range is a bit unhealthy.

[Jotari]

I like it a lot, but I don't think it should be the standard for the series. May e do something like this every third or fourth game.

[Corrobin]

 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

This very much, magic range +whatever needs to go and I feel like even bow range is a bit unhealthy.

So, if we assumed that Staffs still worked like they do in Three Houses, it should be more stuff like

+Magic Might
+HP Restored on White Magic
+Crit on attacking magic
+Hit on attacking magic
+Evasion when using attacking magic
+Magic Defense

[eclipse]

It's a damn good first step, especially for utility white magic.  But IMO it needs some tweaking.  For example, limit the amount of magic the earlier cross-type classes can access (so Mages can cast up to C Faith, etc.).

[Kruggov]

I liked how the magic was handles, but I did not like the low amount of uses on some of the stronger spells (or when you're still a Commoner/Noble). Liked the tweaks to support white magic, it's much more reusable now. Also while i liked that they at least tried to make offensive white magic possible, I did not like just how inferior it ended up compared to black or dark (why is it that in all games where light and healing magic were combined, light ended up being barely usable?).

And I also did not like the restriction on what classes could use magic, which made trying to hybridize characters much more difficult than it shoud've been.

[Flere210]

2 hours ago, Kruggov said:

 Also while i liked that they at least tried to make offensive white magic possible, I did not like just how inferior it ended up compared to black or dark (why is it that in all games where light and healing magic were combined, light ended up being barely usable?).

Because if it's as good as black magic reason became an inferior choice 100%. Do you want white magic users to become D&D 3.5 clerics?

[X-Naut]

12 hours ago, Corrobin said:

So, if we assumed that Staffs still worked like they do in Three Houses, it should be more stuff like

+Magic Might
+HP Restored on White Magic
+Crit on attacking magic
+Hit on attacking magic
+Evasion when using attacking magic
+Magic Defense

Mostly Mt/Hit/Crit boosts and Wt reduction yeah, but for staves also combining ranges. Like, give staffs a set range and if you know the spell Magic scales it up.

[Fire Brand]

Sothe: Micaiah, healing without staves or tomes is a rare gift; almost unheard of.

All of Valentia and Fodlan: That's where you're wrong, kiddo.