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On the relative happiness/sadness of FE games (Three Houses spoilers)


Corrobin
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I may say something you disagree with, but here it is: Three Houses might be one of the saddest FE games to date.

If you only stick to your own house and the ancillary recruits like Flayn, Seteth, the professors and knights, you still have tons of units who you know are good people who you have to fight. And it gets even worse if you only recruit a few of the people, as that can result in people who were friends being forced to fight each other. 

Even the main villains (Those Who Slither In The Dark excluded) are all sympathetic and sad in their own ways. Edelgard, Dimitri, and Rhea all have very justifiable, understandable motives, even if they do some terrible things in order to make what they desire happen.

So, with that out of the way, I want to ask you: Do you think FE is better if it's happier, or sadder?

Because, while I do believe that Three Houses is one of the best FE games to date, it's sort of... emotionally draining, I guess.

I hope for the next one we can get a more idealistic story with less tragedy and sorrow in it.

I don't hate Three Houses for being sad. I think it works incredibly well and fits the themes and ideas super well.

But I sort of just want the next FE game to be a more classic story about a young lord and magic swords and evil dragons and saving the world. I hope you understand what I mean.

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I can't exactly comment on how emotionally draining Three Houses was, as a variety of factors kept me from being emotionally invested in anything that was going on, but I do feel that if they're ever going to do multiple alliances again, "sadder" is the way to go, in the sense that you have to have decent and sympathetic people on every side or there ceases to be good story reasons for you to side with them.

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Yeah, I do.  This story's more gray than the average FE, and I'm all for it.  I can see why it wouldn't be as satisfying if you're looking for clear-cut heroes and villains.

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2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Yeah, I do.  This story's more gray than the average FE, and I'm all for it.  I can see why it wouldn't be as satisfying if you're looking for clear-cut heroes and villains.

I don't hate Three Houses. I actually really like it! It's just I wouldn't want the series to be full of games like it. It's gotta have... balance? It can't be dark all the time, but it also can't be all sunshines and rainbows and happy endings 24/7.

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Just now, Corrobin said:

I don't hate Three Houses. I actually really like it! It's just I wouldn't want the series to be full of games like it. It's gotta have... balance? It can't be dark all the time, but it also can't be all sunshines and rainbows and happy endings 24/7.

Never said you did.

However, I suspect there's more to the game than just what we have.  I'd wait for DLC, since a certain route feels like it got cut short for no good reason.

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I've rarely, if ever, been emotionally invested in a work of fiction, though I get what you mean. The game can be quite sad depending on the choices you make, as every route appears to be merely different shades of grey. And I've only completed one route by now!

That said, I have no problems with the sadness. The entire Fire Emblem series has had difficulty making it seem like your choices have consequences in the past, and this game succeeds where others have failed. True, a clear cut good vs. evil story is good every once in a while, but for now I like the grey.

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2 hours ago, Corrobin said:

But I sort of just want the next FE game to be a more classic story about a young lord and magic swords and evil dragons and saving the world. I hope you understand what I mean.

I get ya, I get ya.

Fire Emblem shouldn't forsake the tragic aspect of its plots. The Camus archetype persists (no matter how badly it gets butchered) because it's such a powerful idea on paper.

That being said, I think stories are better when overall more idealistic. Idealism is often undersold, but it's honestly a more powerful thing than tragedy or realism. It gives the audience this meaningful thing they can be inspired be and try to attain, similar to how the tragic elements remind us to be more sympathetic to others.

I'd also like to say that "clear cut villains vs. sympathetic villains" is a false dichotomy, I think its best if we can understand why a villain does something without having to veer into the territory of "maybe they were right" or any such nonsense. A story should be able to make definitive moral statements.

In other words, I think it would be great if the next Fire Emblem plot was a rocky journey where you feel bad for both the heroes and the villains, but it should ultimately be uplifting and optimistic.

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The issue I have with three houses is that it feels the message is pushing is "killing is ok, as long as it isn't someone you were at school with for like a year!"

The school characters are really the only ones portrayed sympathetically or even at all. It just feels really... Off. Compare to the other games in the series, such as the Judgral or Tellius games, where characters who aren't the core cast still get portrayed sympathetically. 

And also, as I've said before, would Marth be a worse person if each generic boss had a prologue showing them happy at school? Three houses isn't "sad", it's just trying to emotionally manipulate you into believing it is. 

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2 hours ago, Fire Brand said:

The issue I have with three houses is that it feels the message is pushing is "killing is ok, as long as it isn't someone you were at school with for like a year!"

The school characters are really the only ones portrayed sympathetically or even at all. It just feels really... Off. Compare to the other games in the series, such as the Judgral or Tellius games, where characters who aren't the core cast still get portrayed sympathetically. 

And also, as I've said before, would Marth be a worse person if each generic boss had a prologue showing them happy at school? Three houses isn't "sad", it's just trying to emotionally manipulate you into believing it is. 

And also, it's kind of bizarre that they let you recruit anyone, including, arguably, everyone you'd be genuinely upset about killing, while doing little to incentivize getting attached to the ones you will eventually be forced to kill. The game seems to presume a ridiculous amount of familiarity with every character in the game, particularly the other house leaders you have absurdly limited means of interacting with.

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58 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

And also, it's kind of bizarre that they let you recruit anyone, including, arguably, everyone you'd be genuinely upset about killing, while doing little to incentivize getting attached to the ones you will eventually be forced to kill. The game seems to presume a ridiculous amount of familiarity with every character in the game, particularly the other house leaders you have absurdly limited means of interacting with.

Agreed. I really didn't care much for any of them, it was more entertaining to read the corny dialogue in the second phase than tragic. 

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2 hours ago, Fire Brand said:

Agreed. I really didn't care much for any of them, it was more entertaining to read the corny dialogue in the second phase than tragic. 

Wow.

You would laugh at Annette being forced to kill her father in Crimson Flower?

You are heartless...

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1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

Wow.

You would laugh at Annette being forced to kill her father in Crimson Flower?

You are heartless...

While I never saw that interaction or recruited that character, no, I doubt it would have hit me even if I had, because 1, I barely knew anything about her father, and 2, my investment in the story dropped somewhere between discovering I was playing as a special-needs robot with the reflexes of a dying goat, and noticing the narrative consequences of playing a route that was shoveled in at the last minute to pander to fans.

Edited by Alastor15243
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1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

While I never saw that interaction or recruited that character, no, I doubt it would have hit me even if I had, because 1, I barely knew anything about her father, and 2, my investment in the story dropped somewhere between discovering I was playing as a special-needs robot with the reflexes of a dying goat, and noticing the narrative consequences of playing a route that was shoveled in at the last minute to pander to fans.

Precisely. Just compare the Annette/Gilbert conversation to Jill/Shiharam, for instance. That got proper setup and development, while Gilbert was just that guy who stood there sometimes. 

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33 minutes ago, Fire Brand said:

Precisely. Just compare the Annette/Gilbert conversation to Jill/Shiharam, for instance. That got proper setup and development, while Gilbert was just that guy who stood there sometimes. 

Maybe it would carry more weight if you had played Azure Moon first where he has a lot more importance.

But whatever. This is about the overall feel/tone of all FEs. I like the darker FEs like the Jugdral duology.

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37 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Maybe it would carry more weight if you had played Azure Moon first where he has a lot more importance.

But whatever. This is about the overall feel/tone of all FEs. I like the darker FEs like the Jugdral duology.

Each story should be able to stand on its own regardless of the order in which it is played. If you were playing Azure Moon you wouldn't even see the convo.

As for how "dark" a FE is, hmm. I wouldn't consider Judgral dark, sure it has some dark themes, but the overall tone is still quite an optimistic one in the end. It's more of a tragedy than anything. Kinda gives me Star Wars vibes honestly, with act 1 as the prequels and act 2 as the New Hope and such. 

None of the FEs are particularly "dark", tbh. They're all optimistic fantasy stories where everything turns out well in the end. And that's not a bad thing at all, because that's the genre they're going for. If we suddenly got a gritty "dark" FE, it would be really weird. 

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12 hours ago, Corrobin said:

I don't hate Three Houses. I actually really like it! It's just I wouldn't want the series to be full of games like it. It's gotta have... balance? It can't be dark all the time, but it also can't be all sunshines and rainbows and happy endings 24/7.

Even Three Houses is balanced though. It does a good job of sprinkling levity into the mix. 

 

If we were to compare it to popular movies, Three Houses isn't the dreary DC movies. It's the Avengers Infinity War - packing a heaping helping of comedy in with all of the death and failure.

 

And that's a good thing. You care about the characters and feel the emotional gut punches more when there were good times beforehand.

Edited by Etheus
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19 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Even Three Houses is balanced though. It does a good job of sprinkling levity into the mix. 

 

If we were to compare it to popular movies, Three Houses isn't the dreary DC movies. It's the Avengers Infinity War - packing a heaping helping of comedy in with all of the death and failure.

 

And that's a good thing. You care about the characters and feel the emotional gut punches more when there were good times beforehand.

I meant that Three Houses is among the more grounded, complex and grey FEs. Like I said: The villains (Those Who Slither excluded) have justifiable motives, and you will be forced to kill some people who you spent time bonding with.

I just feel like a back-to-basics approach for the next FE game with a more simple plot and characters might be a nice step back.

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2 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

I meant that Three Houses is among the more grounded, complex and grey FEs. Like I said: The villains (Those Who Slither excluded) have justifiable motives, and you will be forced to kill some people who you spent time bonding with.

I just feel like a back-to-basics approach for the next FE game with a more simple plot and characters might be a nice step back.

I suppose that depends on what you consider to be the more simple plot and characters. 

 

I'm personally hoping we never go back to the most basic storylines (Shadow Dragon, New Mystery, and Blazing Sword especially). If we do, I'm hoping that they manage to play on the traditional tropes in a new way. Not crappy subversion like in Star Wars, but a more skillful subversion such that we might see in a Brandon Sanderson novel.

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Sadder is something I generally prefer in stories involving war. There is a place for idealism and heroism but there should also be consequences for these clashes. There are going to be good people on both sides of a conflict and I want to hear all their stories.  TH was a good step in this direction.

 

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

The game seems to presume a ridiculous amount of familiarity with every character in the game, particularly the other house leaders you have absurdly limited means of interacting with.

I think the conversations you have with students at the monastery help to flesh them out, even if you don't recruit them. Even if you know your own house better, I think it's still possible to get attached with other house students just by the hints of their personality or even their looks. You might be sad running a lance through Bernadetta, just having seen that she's terrified and never even wanted to be there.

I will agree with you on the point of the lords however. There was far too little interaction with them in the school phase (and even the war phase, honestly) to know what drives them, and unlike the other students, knowing about their motivations is important in caring about what happens to them. Playing Crimson Flower, you really can't even begin to care about Dimitri unless you've played Azure Moon. He's just barely in the plot at all, despite his high rank in the enemy forces.

Edited by NekoKnight
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17 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I suppose that depends on what you consider to be the more simple plot and characters. 

 

I'm personally hoping we never go back to the most basic storylines (Shadow Dragon, New Mystery, and Blazing Sword especially). If we do, I'm hoping that they manage to play on the traditional tropes in a new way. Not crappy subversion like in Star Wars, but a more skillful subversion such that we might see in a Brandon Sanderson novel.

To elaborate on how this might be applied to FE, how about this:

 

A new duology. The first game is a lighthearted fantasy romp in which the protagonist and his band of friends must overthrow a mad, immortal manakete who rules the continent with an iron fist. You grow to love everyone and see their cause as just.

 

And then at the end of the game, you win and find the manakete's journal. A cutscene plays, the protagonists face warps into a horrified, blank stare, and the curtain drops.

 

The sequel game would reveal that not only was the manakete holding back something far worse and more eldritch, and growing mad from constant interactions with said force, but his decisions, so seemingly cruel, were actually made with good intentions. Meanwhile, our idealistic party actually has no idea how to rule a kingdom. They are every bit as incompetent as post timeskip Chrom in Awakening, and the game is actually self aware enough to call it out. 

 

And as society crumbles, the protagonists go on a quest, aided by the former ruler's advisor, to find hidden McGuffins and provisions prepared for the coming threat by the very man they overthrew.

Edited by Etheus
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It's really not imo because you have many way to prevent the sad outcome. Is Undertale genocide run sad? Only if you decide to do it and consider it how thing went in canon. You can have some very sad moment if you recruit some people and male them kill their friends, but otherwise only a couple of sympathetic people has to die. Also, i am enought of an asshole to not have much simpathy for those that dig their own grave, wich is what some of the characters that cannot be saved does. I ended up wanting a "kill every last one of them" route more than a "everyone join force againist TWSITD" route.

Edited by Flere210
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19 hours ago, Corrobin said:

But I sort of just want the next FE game to be a more classic story about a young lord and magic swords and evil dragons and saving the world. I hope you understand what I mean.

I understand what you mean but I don't share the sentiment. Before Three Houses, my biggest complaint about the series as a whole was that it played its tropes far too safely and similarly to other entries. World-ending dragons, evil cults, perfect blue-haired lords ushering in a new peace that lasts for thousands of years, etc. I got a little tired of the predictability of the setting that seemed to remain even though the series often changes the very universe it's set in. Three Houses thankfully changed up the formula considerably, and I'm more interested in ever in seeing where the series will go next.

We've had many Fire Emblem games now where the story is as simple as it can be to justify being invested in the cast and what is happening in the plot. While not all games have to be as ambitious or emotionally challenging as Three Houses (one could argue Three Houses bit off more than it could chew as several plot lines seem either undercooked or unfinished), I have no desire to go back to overly simplistic plots. I've had enough of evil dragons/demons/gods and their cults in particular. 

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5 minutes ago, Thane said:

I understand what you mean but I don't share the sentiment. Before Three Houses, my biggest complaint about the series as a whole was that it played its tropes far too safely and similarly to other entries. World-ending dragons, evil cults, perfect blue-haired lords ushering in a new peace that lasts for thousands of years, etc

In some areas Three Houses didn't entirely escape this fate. The Slitherers for instance are immediately recognizable as just another evil Fire Emblem cult and with how half baked they are I suspect they are in the game solely to ensure it has an evil cult.  

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Honestly I just want an FE story written like it was written by Gen Urobuchi. Y'know something that will just rip your soul out and continuously beat it against the wall until you feel nothing but emptiness and existential dread on the inside. That's the kind of FE story I want to see. Like seriously if you think 3H is sad. A FE story like that will break you within the first two chapters.

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38 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Honestly I just want an FE story written like it was written by Gen Urobuchi. Y'know something that will just rip your soul out and continuously beat it against the wall until you feel nothing but emptiness and existential dread on the inside. That's the kind of FE story I want to see. Like seriously if you think 3H is sad. A FE story like that will break you within the first two chapters.

That would run into a problem I have with overly dark stories where everything just goes from bad to worse. It invokes the eight deadly words of any story:

"I don't care what happens to these people."

If everyone is horrible and our heroes are only marginally better than everyone else and nothing looks like it will ever improve, I lose all interest.

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