Transgender People in the World Today and a Confession

[Othin]

Seems today is Trans Day of Visibility! Looks like I was a day ahead of schedule, lol. 

[Rezzy]

2 hours ago, eclipse said:

Due to, uh, dynamics that have nothing to do with this topic, I don't really pay attention to that gender thing, so you'll have to tell me if you want to be addressed with a particular pronoun.

Do you mean me?  I think people here have just always called me "she", and I don't really see any need for anything else.  I like to keep things simple.

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

Commend the bravery of some people here to come out as trans.  I imagine in person with friends/family it is especially tough.  The pushback against trans seems to have been on a few sticking points.

The bathroom issue, the sports issue, then pushback by gay community and straight on the assumption that trans people are changing gender cause they don't want to come out as gay.  There is also the argument about the surgery being deemed as cosmetic unnecessary vs medical necessity (essentially should insurance cover it).  Then there is should treatments be allowed pre puberty.  

The thing about is it a mental disorder, is it genetic, is it environmental?  I think like homosexuality, that shouldn't have any impact on how the group is treated.  Is it a choice?  That is the question and the answer seems to obviously be no.  

Yeah, it's been rough with family, particularly my father.

There's a lot of debates around the trans issue.  I think I might have addressed those earlier in the topic, but if I didn't "d be happy to talk about something in particular.

41 minutes ago, Othin said:

Seems today is Trans Day of Visibility! Looks like I was a day ahead of schedule, lol. 

I didn't even realize that until today.  Oddly enough, I got called Rae for the first time at work today.

[eclipse]

7 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Do you mean me?  I think people here have just always called me "she", and I don't really see any need for anything else.  I like to keep things simple.

Just in general.  Since my first interactions with you were under the impression that you were a "she", it stuck.  And if that's what you want to be called, then I shall continue to do so!

[Lycan]

Hey - sorry for the necro,

I know I'm new here (kinda - I had an account before but it was a while back and I'd forgotten the username) and I don't know how I stumbled upon this thread but I really liked the way the OP was worded.  I am in a bit of an odd situation -- I'm a 25 year old Male who voluntarily lives alone (I have an adequate if not exhausting social life and get out a lot though) and have been a closeted gay since like....well ever.  I am not in any way asexual or anything along those lines but would score very highly in conscientiousness to the point where I don't feel a strong 'need' for a romantic partner for emotional stability in the way I know factually that some people do.  I have fallen in love once with a straight friend which... well it would take me 10 posts to explain the horrors of how that affects you...He doesn't know, is married, and we still talk often.  Yea.... definitely not making any mistakes there!

Anyways, the main reason I've chosen to stay in the closet for 25 years has nothing to do with a fear of bigotry or some sort of systemic BS as I'm rather cocky and would probably enjoy that quite a bit.  More it has to do with the stereotypes associated with how gay people look/behave/act as I do not relate to that sort of persona even slightly.  Most of my friends probably take the fact that I've never dated anyone to mean I'm asexual or something because I think that seems to be more likely in their minds than gay (I've even heard them say as much when we were drunk one time).  That's kind of the reason I liked the way you explained your situation in the OP - it seemed like your problem also wasn't so much the hatred but all the assumptions about how you're going to suddenly start acting. The fear of being known as the "gay person" is frightening even if people don't do so with any malicious intend.  In fact, I don't even blame the stereotypers for most of the stereotypes - I think that while its wonderful the LGBTQ+ community has worked to improve legislative equality they have been horrific at demolishing cultural stereotypes and are the reason there are so many false stereotypes about how gays act by constantly showboating their 'prime' examples of 'gayness'.  I'm intelligent enough to know that stereotypes dissipate in seconds through private conversations with most people (they'll only assume you're going to talk with a lisp until you get a sentence out) so it's really not that big of a deal but it's what I find frustrating.  I don't necessarily identify with the fear of social rejection but I am also a bit younger than you and the culture has shifted quite a bit in the last 10 years.  Though the unfortunate thing about being my age in today's world is my generation seems to like to 'act out' and get praised for it (thanks social media) so of course I'd get all these accusations of being gay cause its cool now.

Whole point of all the way-too-long rant above here ---->>> Anyways I didn't know I was going to go into such a long backstory or make it about me but I am basically wondering if you relate in any way to the idea that so many people that try to 'represent' you are kind of forcing in some idea of how you should behave/act?  I of course can't be ungrateful to these kinds of people as people like me were once being thrown off of cliffs (and in some countries, still are) but god damn you can't just like the same sex without them sending you a manual on how you're supposed to act now. 

Again, I'm somewhat new here so it's a little odd for me to be posting here but it seems a lot less vulnerable to me than posting on a larger more general site like reddit and I liked the OP...  I don't think I'll be coming out for at least the next few years because I do not see much of an up side considering my lack of necessity for deep emotional relationships but I also don't have the desire to end up having my first relationship at 50 with another man that's already got gray hairs... (at that point I would have already chosen to forsake it and just die alone.  Ah, the wonders of being someone who thinks too much...

PS:  I know being gay is different than trans and the topic is trans, but I still related quite a bit.  I am impressed with you for being able to hold together a family and such a successful job while dealing with all this crap.  Props to you -- keep it up

[Rezzy]

9 minutes ago, Lycan said:

PS:  I know being gay is different than trans and the topic is trans, but I still related quite a bit.  I am impressed with you for being able to hold together a family and such a successful job while dealing with all this crap.  Props to you -- keep it up

Hey thanks.  I think I can understand where you're coming from.  It's not really something you need to feel compelled to come out about.  I don't think I exactly fit the stereotype of what people would assume of me, either.

[eclipse]

@Lycan it's over a month old AND off the front page, so you're fine!

[Jotari]

54 minutes ago, eclipse said:

@Lycan it's over a month old AND off the front page, so you're fine!

Ah. You're referring to the rule. I thought the it in question was the thread, which left me highly confused for a second.

1 hour ago, Lycan said:

Hey - sorry for the necro,

I know I'm new here (kinda - I had an account before but it was a while back and I'd forgotten the username) and I don't know how I stumbled upon this thread but I really liked the way the OP was worded.  I am in a bit of an odd situation -- I'm a 25 year old Male who voluntarily lives alone (I have an adequate if not exhausting social life and get out a lot though) and have been a closeted gay since like....well ever.  I am not in any way asexual or anything along those lines but would score very highly in conscientiousness to the point where I don't feel a strong 'need' for a romantic partner for emotional stability in the way I know factually that some people do.  I have fallen in love once with a straight friend which... well it would take me 10 posts to explain the horrors of how that affects you...He doesn't know, is married, and we still talk often.  Yea.... definitely not making any mistakes there!

Anyways, the main reason I've chosen to stay in the closet for 25 years has nothing to do with a fear of bigotry or some sort of systemic BS as I'm rather cocky and would probably enjoy that quite a bit.  More it has to do with the stereotypes associated with how gay people look/behave/act as I do not relate to that sort of persona even slightly.  Most of my friends probably take the fact that I've never dated anyone to mean I'm asexual or something because I think that seems to be more likely in their minds than gay (I've even heard them say as much when we were drunk one time).  That's kind of the reason I liked the way you explained your situation in the OP - it seemed like your problem also wasn't so much the hatred but all the assumptions about how you're going to suddenly start acting. The fear of being known as the "gay person" is frightening even if people don't do so with any malicious intend.  In fact, I don't even blame the stereotypers for most of the stereotypes - I think that while its wonderful the LGBTQ+ community has worked to improve legislative equality they have been horrific at demolishing cultural stereotypes and are the reason there are so many false stereotypes about how gays act by constantly showboating their 'prime' examples of 'gayness'.  I'm intelligent enough to know that stereotypes dissipate in seconds through private conversations with most people (they'll only assume you're going to talk with a lisp until you get a sentence out) so it's really not that big of a deal but it's what I find frustrating.  I don't necessarily identify with the fear of social rejection but I am also a bit younger than you and the culture has shifted quite a bit in the last 10 years.  Though the unfortunate thing about being my age in today's world is my generation seems to like to 'act out' and get praised for it (thanks social media) so of course I'd get all these accusations of being gay cause its cool now.

Whole point of all the way-too-long rant above here ---->>> Anyways I didn't know I was going to go into such a long backstory or make it about me but I am basically wondering if you relate in any way to the idea that so many people that try to 'represent' you are kind of forcing in some idea of how you should behave/act?  I of course can't be ungrateful to these kinds of people as people like me were once being thrown off of cliffs (and in some countries, still are) but god damn you can't just like the same sex without them sending you a manual on how you're supposed to act now. 

Again, I'm somewhat new here so it's a little odd for me to be posting here but it seems a lot less vulnerable to me than posting on a larger more general site like reddit and I liked the OP...  I don't think I'll be coming out for at least the next few years because I do not see much of an up side considering my lack of necessity for deep emotional relationships but I also don't have the desire to end up having my first relationship at 50 with another man that's already got gray hairs... (at that point I would have already chosen to forsake it and just die alone.  Ah, the wonders of being someone who thinks too much...

PS:  I know being gay is different than trans and the topic is trans, but I still related quite a bit.  I am impressed with you for being able to hold together a family and such a successful job while dealing with all this crap.  Props to you -- keep it up

Consider the fact that there are likely many people in exactly your situation who are also being closeted, so to speak. The reality is that all gay people aren't like the sterotype, but if the sterotypical gays are the only ones people are going to see or notice, then the sterotype won't really disappear. People will think all gays are like that if they're the only gays they see. So by being yourself and not being that, you would be eroding the sterotype. I'm not exactly telling you to come out or anything, it's none of my business, just presenting an alternate way of viewing things.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Jotari

[Othin]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ah. You're referring to the rule. I thought the it in question was the thread, which left me highly confused for a second.

Consider the fact that there are likely many people in exactly your situation who are also being closeted, so to speak. The reality is that all gay people aren't like the sterotype, but if the sterotypical gays are the only ones people are going to see or notice, then the sterotype won't really disappear. People will think all gays are like that if they're the only gays they see. So by being yourself and not being that, you would be eroding the sterotype. I'm not exactly telling you to come out or anything, it's none of my business, just presenting an alternate way of viewing things.

This is a good way of putting it. Personally, I spent quite a while seeing only trans experiences that seemed very different from mine. I only started to feel comfortable talking about it as I saw people I could relate to more, and as I realized I could be that to other people. 

[Lewyn]

21 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ah. You're referring to the rule. I thought the it in question was the thread, which left me highly confused for a second.

Consider the fact that there are likely many people in exactly your situation who are also being closeted, so to speak. The reality is that all gay people aren't like the sterotype, but if the sterotypical gays are the only ones people are going to see or notice, then the sterotype won't really disappear. People will think all gays are like that if they're the only gays they see. So by being yourself and not being that, you would be eroding the sterotype. I'm not exactly telling you to come out or anything, it's none of my business, just presenting an alternate way of viewing things.

This kind of touches on something I think.  The gay stereotype, (like the guy on Will and Grace), a very flamboyant effeminate male is what comes to mind to many people who don't know many gays IRL.  The parade does reinforce said stereotype.  Remember about guys, masculinity is something that even now is extremely important.  Even saying you like to watch ballet is a no no.  Saying you'd like to dance in one, well that likely will lead to a lot of bad things.  Saying you like sewing or home decor, or big into fashion (this is more acceptable now), etc.  You get the picture. This is just interests.  However if someone is acting in a way that is removed from the traditional it will often be ridiculed heavily.  I think it is culture, or something, but it seems so deeply ingrained.

Another thing is one might notice that in Hollywood in recent years there is a lot of representation.  Like many maybe most shows will have a gay character, and more films do too.  However the problem with many of these representations, is the character is too defined by being gay.  Like it isn't an interesting well written character with a lot going on that happens to be gay, but it is the focus of the character and his arc.  I don't know if this is helping how people think, it seems like throwing in a token minority who is defined by their race.  

[Johann]

On 6/9/2020 at 11:59 PM, Lycan said:

Hey - sorry for the necro,

I know I'm new here (kinda - I had an account before but it was a while back and I'd forgotten the username) and I don't know how I stumbled upon this thread but I really liked the way the OP was worded.  I am in a bit of an odd situation -- I'm a 25 year old Male who voluntarily lives alone (I have an adequate if not exhausting social life and get out a lot though) and have been a closeted gay since like....well ever.  I am not in any way asexual or anything along those lines but would score very highly in conscientiousness to the point where I don't feel a strong 'need' for a romantic partner for emotional stability in the way I know factually that some people do.  I have fallen in love once with a straight friend which... well it would take me 10 posts to explain the horrors of how that affects you...He doesn't know, is married, and we still talk often.  Yea.... definitely not making any mistakes there!

Anyways, the main reason I've chosen to stay in the closet for 25 years has nothing to do with a fear of bigotry or some sort of systemic BS as I'm rather cocky and would probably enjoy that quite a bit.  More it has to do with the stereotypes associated with how gay people look/behave/act as I do not relate to that sort of persona even slightly.  Most of my friends probably take the fact that I've never dated anyone to mean I'm asexual or something because I think that seems to be more likely in their minds than gay (I've even heard them say as much when we were drunk one time).  That's kind of the reason I liked the way you explained your situation in the OP - it seemed like your problem also wasn't so much the hatred but all the assumptions about how you're going to suddenly start acting. The fear of being known as the "gay person" is frightening even if people don't do so with any malicious intend.  In fact, I don't even blame the stereotypers for most of the stereotypes - I think that while its wonderful the LGBTQ+ community has worked to improve legislative equality they have been horrific at demolishing cultural stereotypes and are the reason there are so many false stereotypes about how gays act by constantly showboating their 'prime' examples of 'gayness'.  I'm intelligent enough to know that stereotypes dissipate in seconds through private conversations with most people (they'll only assume you're going to talk with a lisp until you get a sentence out) so it's really not that big of a deal but it's what I find frustrating.  I don't necessarily identify with the fear of social rejection but I am also a bit younger than you and the culture has shifted quite a bit in the last 10 years.  Though the unfortunate thing about being my age in today's world is my generation seems to like to 'act out' and get praised for it (thanks social media) so of course I'd get all these accusations of being gay cause its cool now.

Whole point of all the way-too-long rant above here ---->>> Anyways I didn't know I was going to go into such a long backstory or make it about me but I am basically wondering if you relate in any way to the idea that so many people that try to 'represent' you are kind of forcing in some idea of how you should behave/act?  I of course can't be ungrateful to these kinds of people as people like me were once being thrown off of cliffs (and in some countries, still are) but god damn you can't just like the same sex without them sending you a manual on how you're supposed to act now. 

Again, I'm somewhat new here so it's a little odd for me to be posting here but it seems a lot less vulnerable to me than posting on a larger more general site like reddit and I liked the OP...  I don't think I'll be coming out for at least the next few years because I do not see much of an up side considering my lack of necessity for deep emotional relationships but I also don't have the desire to end up having my first relationship at 50 with another man that's already got gray hairs... (at that point I would have already chosen to forsake it and just die alone.  Ah, the wonders of being someone who thinks too much...

PS:  I know being gay is different than trans and the topic is trans, but I still related quite a bit.  I am impressed with you for being able to hold together a family and such a successful job while dealing with all this crap.  Props to you -- keep it up

For what it's worth, a lot of the "stereotypical" gay behavior (deliberate lisping and other affectations) has long history in being a way for gay people to let other gay people know they were gay, particularly in times/places when it was even more dangerous to be out and most straight people didn't know any better. A lot of this being in the spotlight of parts of gay culture today isn't about trying to reinforce a stereotype, but rather to show that being gay isn't something that people should be ashamed about, while also extending a giant middle finger to anyone who thinks gay people need to be silenced.

It's a difficult balance since you're surely not the only gay person who feels like you might not fit in, but gay communities are more varied than you might have experienced, and hopefully you will be able to find even more places where you can be yourself without fear or discomfort.

[Lewyn]

I wanted to take this opportunity to ask some questions @Rezzy and others that identify as transgender.  

1.  Does hormone therapy/blockers other treatments alter your emotions, thoughts, personality?

2. Is there a relation between sexual orientation and gender identity?  As in MtF most would be attracted to males, and FtM most would be attracted to females?  

3. Did you imitate/take as role model the parent whose gender you identified as?

4. How would you go about getting the public to have a more positive view and be more accepting?

5. How do you feel about portrayal on Television and film?  

6. Other things that the general public is not aware of that you would like to say?

[Othin]

8 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I wanted to take this opportunity to ask some questions @Rezzy and others that identify as transgender.  

1.  Does hormone therapy/blockers other treatments alter your emotions, thoughts, personality?

2. Is there a relation between sexual orientation and gender identity?  As in MtF most would be attracted to males, and FtM most would be attracted to females?  

3. Did you imitate/take as role model the parent whose gender you identified as?

4. How would you go about getting the public to have a more positive view and be more accepting?

5. How do you feel about portrayal on Television and film?  

6. Other things that the general public is not aware of that you would like to say?

1. Honestly, I haven't noticed much with myself. But I get the impression they do for most people, to some extent.

2. That's tricky to evaluate. One thing I do think is significant is that a lot of queer people don't know they're queer - however, if someone recognizes they're queer in one way, they're likely to have an easier time recognizing any other ways they're queer from there. My impression is that the most common orientation for trans women is bi/pan, probably in part because of that. Among trans women who have a preference, I think preferring women is more common than preferring men, but I'm not certain. I think in the past, there was more of an expectation that being a trans women went along with liking men, so trans women who preferred women were less likely to figure themselves out or come out, but that's been changing over the years.

3. I couldn't really tell you which of my parents I take after more, honestly.

4. More talking about and depicting trans stuff, particularly as something normal and common. Everyone who knows any decent number of people probably knows some number of trans people, whether or not they realize that they do, and more widespread recognition of that fact will help a lot. Particularly since I think most trans people still haven't come out or transitioned.

5. Not enough of it, and a lot of it sucks. There needs to be more of those portrayals, and more variety among those portrayals. One thing in particular that I think would be really cool to see is shows involving a major character coming out and transitioning, and having the show portray it respectfully while also being just, like, one of the arcs that character goes through rather than their focus. That's how transition works for a lot of real-life people, and I think there should be a lot of chances to see fictional characters living that experience as well. Side characters, main characters, even multiple characters in a single story. (After all, it's very much a thing for one person coming out to lead to others doing the same.) I think seeing trans characters that way would do a lot to both help trans people accept themselves and help get cis people to better understand and accept trans people.

Over time, I hope media depictions of trans people improve to the point where most people, kids and adults, have seen enough to get a good idea of what it looks like for someone to come out as trans and be accepted, and of how trans people can live in as much of a variety of ways as cis people do.

6. Trans experiences (and queer experiences in general) are so much more varied than most people recognize. Like, you never really know if someone who seems to be a totally masculine guy will end up coming out as a trans woman. And if so, you're not necessarily going to be able to predict which "masculine" stuff she did was stuff she was just playing up because she felt like she was supposed to and will then stop doing, vs which stuff she'll stick with.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Othin

[Rezzy]

9 hours ago, Lewyn said:

I wanted to take this opportunity to ask some questions @Rezzy and others that identify as transgender.  

1.  Does hormone therapy/blockers other treatments alter your emotions, thoughts, personality?

2. Is there a relation between sexual orientation and gender identity?  As in MtF most would be attracted to males, and FtM most would be attracted to females?  

3. Did you imitate/take as role model the parent whose gender you identified as?

4. How would you go about getting the public to have a more positive view and be more accepting?

5. How do you feel about portrayal on Television and film?  

6. Other things that the general public is not aware of that you would like to say?

1: Most thoughts and i think my personality are about the same, though it's a lot easier to cry than it was before.

2: Trans people can be straight, gay, or bi.  It seems there are more "transbians" then one would expect if just taking the percent of lesbians for cis women, but that's all anecdotal, and I've seen no real research into it.  I've also seen that once you are on HRT, as a trans woman, you are more inclined to be attracted to men.  I'm bi and always have been, but the desire to lean towards men has definitely shifted, and I've heard the same from other trans women, so it seems that hormones can have an effect on sexual preference.

3: Not really, I guess I can be like my mom, but I've usually had a better relationship with my dad, before coming out as trans.  If anything, I'm sad for letting my dad down.

4: What I do is try to just show people that trans people are just normal people.  I try to be a positive depiction of what trans people are like, myself, and I think most trans people are like that, just normal people.  I don't like that people think of drag queens first, when thinking of trans people, and think that does more harm than good for trans acceptance.

5: Truth be told, I don't really watch TV much anymore, and haven't really seen many movies with trans people in them.  The closest thing from shows I watch that's positive would be the Trill from Star Trek DS9, where they can switch between genders as their symbiote is passed on.

6: I can't think of anything new that I haven't said, but know that not all trans people are the same.  We each have our own thoughts, and try not to assume one will think a certain way, just because we're trans.

[Lewyn]

@Othin and @Rezzy thank you both so much for replying!  On your replies

1. So it seems like it could vary, depending on person.  I guess maybe studies on testosterone, estrogen and how they effect personality, mood, etc could be relevant.  Rezzy so HRT has enhanced your attraction towards men, something you did always have.  Did it also decrease attraction towards women?  Besides altering strength of attraction do you think it can create attraction to a gender one didn't have to before?

2. Othin yes I think the assumption is most trans woman are attracted to men and most trans men attracted to women, however I don't know what that is based on.  According you two, it seems like it can vary greatly.

3. I asked this question cause early in life we often model much of our behavior after our same sex parent.  Like gestures, facial expressions, how we walk, sit, etc.  Rezzy sorry about your dad!  

4. Othin When it is widely accepted many more people will come out.  Most research seems to indicate it is rare, but maybe that is cause that is cause many people don't want to admit.  Transitioning seems very long and expensive process, plus it could alienate other relationships or interfere with employment and such I could see why most would not.

    Rezzy Yes it seems the stereotypes, which is all many people have to go by, are mostly quite extreme and negative.  One's gender is just a single aspect of a person.  Though there are boy and girl stereotypes as well, they don't seem as limiting.   Aren't most drag queens actually transvestites rather than transsexuals?  

5. Since most of us don't know someone who has come out as transgender it is very hard to learn from personal experience and instead we are getting most information from media portrayals and assumptions.  Gives us very limited and often times faulty outlook.  

    Othin A lot more variety would be great.  I think a character coming out and transitioning would be very hard to do though wouldn't it?  I'm thinking showing transition through CGI or something might get ridiculed or cause offense.  Reality show maybe?  Showing the whole transition process, don't know if it would get enough viewership.

6. Great variety just like every other group of people, I do hope most realize this.  Again hard since most knowledge is limited to the scant media portrayals, and then there are the political issues which can be very divisive.  

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

2. Othin yes I think the assumption is most trans woman are attracted to men and most trans men attracted to women, however I don't know what that is based on.  According you two, it seems like it can vary greatly.

I think historically, one factor has been the "inversion" school of thought, where same-gender attraction is thought of as a form of "opposite-gender" behavior and therefore inferred to be associated with other forms of it. While we see a lot of more nuanced understandings nowadays, there are still lasting effects from the history of of that way of thinking.

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

4. Othin When it is widely accepted many more people will come out.  Most research seems to indicate it is rare, but maybe that is cause that is cause many people don't want to admit.  Transitioning seems very long and expensive process, plus it could alienate other relationships or interfere with employment and such I could see why most would not.

Not wanting to admit it, and also just not realizing it. The less a variety of trans experiences someone is familiar with, the less likely people are to be able to tell if theirs is one of them.

How long and how expensive transitioning is depends on how... thorough a given person wants to be. Not every trans person wants to go for every possible physical change, especially if they don't feel the need to be able to pass. Which is another thing greater acceptance helps with.

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

5. Since most of us don't know someone who has come out as transgender it is very hard to learn from personal experience and instead we are getting most information from media portrayals and assumptions.  Gives us very limited and often times faulty outlook.  

Indeed. Although I think over time, the number of people coming out as trans is increasing enough to help with that.

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

Othin A lot more variety would be great.  I think a character coming out and transitioning would be very hard to do though wouldn't it?  I'm thinking showing transition through CGI or something might get ridiculed or cause offense.  Reality show maybe?  Showing the whole transition process, don't know if it would get enough viewership.

Showing physical transition would require showing the character over a long timeframe and could be tricky to depict in live-action shows, but social transition is possible without that. There are also more options in animated shows, and live-action shows that involve timeskips could use that as an opportunity to change actors, I guess?

Something like a reality show would be making it a major focus, I'm talking about situations where it can be a more minor one. Like how it's getting easier over time to have a character be gay and have that not be their whole story, just part of it. Could be trickier with trans characters than with gay ones, but I think it's possible.

[Lewyn]

On 6/22/2020 at 6:35 PM, Othin said:

I think historically, one factor has been the "inversion" school of thought, where same-gender attraction is thought of as a form of "opposite-gender" behavior and therefore inferred to be associated with other forms of it. While we see a lot of more nuanced understandings nowadays, there are still lasting effects from the history of of that way of thinking.

Not wanting to admit it, and also just not realizing it. The less a variety of trans experiences someone is familiar with, the less likely people are to be able to tell if theirs is one of them.

How long and how expensive transitioning is depends on how... thorough a given person wants to be. Not every trans person wants to go for every possible physical change, especially if they don't feel the need to be able to pass. Which is another thing greater acceptance helps with.

Indeed. Although I think over time, the number of people coming out as trans is increasing enough to help with that.

Showing physical transition would require showing the character over a long timeframe and could be tricky to depict in live-action shows, but social transition is possible without that. There are also more options in animated shows, and live-action shows that involve timeskips could use that as an opportunity to change actors, I guess?

Something like a reality show would be making it a major focus, I'm talking about situations where it can be a more minor one. Like how it's getting easier over time to have a character be gay and have that not be their whole story, just part of it. Could be trickier with trans characters than with gay ones, but I think it's possible.

2. Yes there is a long history, and still many people feel that way. 

4. I thought for people who are transgender (as opposed to nongender or undecided) they know very much they feel like opposite sex.  There are strong gender stereotypes/differences enforced even today.  

About passing one of the things I recalled growing up, was a great fear many guys had that what if you meet a girl and you don't know she is trans.  What if she doesn't tell you, and you do something (kiss or more) and only then realize!  It was something that horrified many, and if I'm being honest as a young teenager I also felt that way.  That is a touchy issue, I wonder what opinions are on if a transperson should reveal their biological sex before any intimacy.

Yes animation!! Can't believe that didn't cross my mind.  That would be the perfect medium, and yeah it being something that isn't the center of the show's focus and so becomes more accepted as natural.  

[Othin]

5 hours ago, Lewyn said:

4. I thought for people who are transgender (as opposed to nongender or undecided) they know very much they feel like opposite sex.  There are strong gender stereotypes/differences enforced even today.  

Knowing from a young age is another thing that's certainly how it works for some people but not as universal as a lot of people think. A lot of trans people don't automatically have a complete idea of what it can mean to "feel trans", and spend some amount of time attributing the feelings to other expansions.

[Rezzy]

On 6/28/2020 at 12:42 AM, Lewyn said:

About passing one of the things I recalled growing up, was a great fear many guys had that what if you meet a girl and you don't know she is trans.  What if she doesn't tell you, and you do something (kiss or more) and only then realize!  It was something that horrified many, and if I'm being honest as a young teenager I also felt that way.  That is a touchy issue, I wonder what opinions are on if a transperson should reveal their biological sex before any intimacy.

Fear of accidental gayness is a pretty common fear among men.  Part of it might be societal pressure to be manly.  A poll found like 97% of straight men would not want to date a trans woman.

In regards to your other point, I feel it's best to tell the person you're trans before doing anything intimate.  Partially because keeping something like that secret could cause trust issues if they find out later, and also for one's own personal safety.  There are lots of stories of men getting violent if they feel they've been tricked into having sex with another man.

[SuperNova125]

I usually hang in the Feh side of the forums however, I recently started taking a look in other areas of the site and I am glad I found this thread. This is a topic that despite how strongly I feel about, I never have talked about so bear that in mind. I just finished reading the entire thing and despite being extremely late I have to say some things. 

@Rezzy@Othinand everyone else in this site that feels this way congratulations for being yourselves and having the power to go through the pain of accepting who you are. I myself am struggling with this to an extent, accepting who I am. That's part of the reason I won't be directly "coming out" as of now. 

I also would like to respond to what @Lycan said. I completely understand what you are trying to say however, I would like to express my opinion even if I am not the ideal person to do so. Live your life and even if you are given a manual you don't have to follow it to be happy, of course I understand that you may feel pressure this however doesn't have to stop you from being out in public. Though that's my take on the matter. 

[Lewyn]

On 6/28/2020 at 8:54 PM, Othin said:

Knowing from a young age is another thing that's certainly how it works for some people but not as universal as a lot of people think. A lot of trans people don't automatically have a complete idea of what it can mean to "feel trans", and spend some amount of time attributing the feelings to other expansions.

Could you go into more detail about this, about not knowing that they really feel to be opposite gender and instead attribute to something else?  Is there a gradual process of learning and revelation?  I am very curious about the mental processes, how it can vary.  

2 hours ago, Rezzy said:

Fear of accidental gayness is a pretty common fear among men.  Part of it might be societal pressure to be manly.  A poll found like 97% of straight men would not want to date a trans woman.

In regards to your other point, I feel it's best to tell the person you're trans before doing anything intimate.  Partially because keeping something like that secret could cause trust issues if they find out later, and also for one's own personal safety.  There are lots of stories of men getting violent if they feel they've been tricked into having sex with another man.

Wow 97%.  I think one thing is most when thinking of trans believe they have had hormones, maybe surgery, but did not have genitals remove.  I wonder what percentage would be okay if say there was a procedure to completely alter biological sex?  Fear of accidental gayness is indeed very real.  

I agree, some would get violent.  However I think most would certainly feel a major betrayal at the least.  

[Rezzy]

26 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

 

Wow 97%.  I think one thing is most when thinking of trans believe they have had hormones, maybe surgery, but did not have genitals remove.  I wonder what percentage would be okay if say there was a procedure to completely alter biological sex?  Fear of accidental gayness is indeed very real.  

I agree, some would get violent.  However I think most would certainly feel a major betrayal at the least.  

There is SRS, which isn't exactly removing the genitals, but may be what you're thinking of, without getting too graphic.

[eclipse]

4 hours ago, Rezzy said:

There is SRS, which isn't exactly removing the genitals, but may be what you're thinking of, without getting too graphic.

. . .yeah, gonna second this.  If either of you wants to delve into this in more detail, please do so via PM.

[Lewyn]

18 hours ago, Rezzy said:

There is SRS, which isn't exactly removing the genitals, but may be what you're thinking of, without getting too graphic.

Yes, SRS was what I was thinking of.  

Another question, since we are on SRS.  Opponents of SRS and HRT argue that if one feels they were born into the wrong gender, it would be better to get the mind to fit the body one is born with rather than try to reshape the body to fit the mind.  What are your thoughts on this position and has there been a lot of research done on it?

 

[Rezzy]

On 6/30/2020 at 4:51 PM, Lewyn said:

Yes, SRS was what I was thinking of.  

Another question, since we are on SRS.  Opponents of SRS and HRT argue that if one feels they were born into the wrong gender, it would be better to get the mind to fit the body one is born with rather than try to reshape the body to fit the mind.  What are your thoughts on this position and has there been a lot of research done on it?

So we don't risk the ire of eclipse, feel free to DM me, if you want to know anything in the area of SRS or transgender medical treatments.