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Mukmuk

Which "Bad" Characters do you Enjoy Using?

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13 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I have used Sheema on a Hard New Mystery run (I went out of my way to use all the royals on that run), and she did all right. Ended up being my Parthia user in endgame

Was she a sniper in that run?

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4 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Was she a sniper in that run?

Sniper seems to be pretty a popular way to go for her since she'll end up with an A Rank in Bows at base.

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21 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

No General. I tend to underuse reclassing.

Awesome looking, Sheena!

One thing I'd improve in the DS remakes is the base stats of the pre-promoted units. Like no General should be recruited with a defense below 20.

I'd turn Sheema's base stats into:

  1. Str 11 - > 19
  2. Skill 12-> 20
  3. Speed 8->14
  4. Luck = the same.
  5. Def 17->26

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Path of Radiance:

Mia: not bad, but she really needed more strength. She started of alright, grew powerful, then became less powerful. Still used her because I wanted to do a Greil Mercenaries run, and she is one of them by the end. 

Rolf: Starts bad, but he's a beast by the end. I hear people say Shinon is better, but I disagree. Rolf usually turns out much better for me. 

Zihark: I've heard people say Myrmidons in Path of Radiance are not good. But I don't see it; especially in the case of Zihark. Enough skill and speed to double-attack and be a dodge-tank, enough strength to KO enemies, and enough defence to take a few hits if he does get hit. 

 

Radiant Dawn:

Edward: I know he isn't considered "bad"; just tough to train early on. The fact is though that once he gets a few levels, he is an utter beast; easily the best Myrmidon in the entire game. 

Micaiah: And not just because I have to use her. I like light magic in fantasy, and I liked the idea of a light mage protagonist, so I would've used her anyway. In my playthroughs where I used her, she maxed all her relevant stats and was a powerful unit. In one case, she maxed all her stats in her final class at level 19. It was hilarious watching her go to level 20 and not a single stat increase because they all were maxed out. 

Ena: I had to bring her to the endgame, so I may as well use her. I gave her a lot of BEXP and those magic cards, and she was reasonably useful. 

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4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Path of Radiance:

Mia: not bad, but she really needed more strength. She started of alright, grew powerful, then became less powerful. Still used her because I wanted to do a Greil Mercenaries run, and she is one of them by the end. 

Rolf: Starts bad, but he's a beast by the end. I hear people say Shinon is better, but I disagree. Rolf usually turns out much better for me. 

Zihark: I've heard people say Myrmidons in Path of Radiance are not good. But I don't see it; especially in the case of Zihark. Enough skill and speed to double-attack and be a dodge-tank, enough strength to KO enemies, and enough defence to take a few hits if he does get hit. 

Radiant Dawn:

Edward: I know he isn't considered "bad"; just tough to train early on. The fact is though that once he gets a few levels, he is an utter beast; easily the best Myrmidon in the entire game.

My Mia when I played Path of Radiance ended up a bit RNG-blessed (she was at least as good as Ike, who had himself gotten RNG-screwed).  Zihark probably is better than Mia normally, but I still ended up benching them both in favor of Stefan.

I never bothered with Rolf and am currently at the conclusion that both him and Shinon are garbage.  However, he might make a good Master Seal candidate on Normal at the very least if you're not giving any to your mounted units.  Endgame regular enemies on Normal should be promoted Level 10 at most, so you can definitely get away with early promotion there.

The problem with Myrmidons in Path of Radiance is that they're in one of the more notorious Horse Emblem games (though I prefer to classify it as a general Mount Emblem game); they're infantry that wield an underpowered weapon type with more difficult access to 1-2-Range than others.  On the whole, mounted units are able to perform just as well in combat as non-mounted ones while also having extra Mov and Canto.

I haven't played Radiant Dawn, so I can't say much about Edward, but from what I hear he's very dependent on his early Level Ups to remain a major contributor; if he lags behind early on it's hard to get him back up to par.

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10 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I never bothered with Rolf and am currently at the conclusion that both him and Shinon are garbage. 

I completely agree with you. Rolf (as mentioned) joins very weak, and the BEXP can go to better units anyways. Shinon leaves for literally 2/3 of the game and joins incredibly late, underleveled, and his recruitment is kind of iffy. I prefer to kill Shinon at the recruitment level and laugh at his face, since I never really liked him anyways. 

14 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I haven't played Radiant Dawn, so I can't say much about Edward, but from what I hear he's very dependent on his early Level Ups to remain a major contributor; if he lags behind early on it's hard to get him back up to par.

Noooot reaaaally... BTW it's a shame that you haven't played RD yet. 

Edward has excellent growths (60% strength for his class is out of this world, combined with other good stuff). It's just hard to raise him up, especially on Hard Mode, so sometimes he'll be lagging in level too much to catch up to your other units.  

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15 minutes ago, Mukmuk said:

Shinon leaves for literally 2/3 of the game and joins incredibly late, underleveled, and his recruitment is kind of iffy. I prefer to kill Shinon at the recruitment level and laugh at his face, since I never really liked him anyways.

I would have benched Shinon too were it not for the fact that I opted not to train Rolf and the Double Bow is Sniper-locked, meaning Astrid can't use it.  In this particular run I wanted a user for every Rank S weapon available.  I know they're not that great, but I just don't feel right playing without them.  (Ironically, despite the Double Bow being crap, I got more use of it than I did any of the other Rank S weapons.)

Come to think of it, if we're considering the use of Bonus EXP no better than Arena Abuse, I'm questioning if Astrid is any good either, mount be damned.

Edited by Von Ithipathachai

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Thinking on it, I'll cover Shadow Dragon and Gaiden.

Shadow Dragon

  1. Darros: I like pirates.
  2. Roger: What can I say I dig his humor and everyman appeal.
  3. Roshea(Book 1 excluded): To complete the Wolfguard.
  4. Vyland: Gotta complete the Wolfguard.
  5. Wrys: He has his appeal despite being a joke character in the DS character.

Gaiden/Echoes: Shadows of Valentia

  1. Barons: Barons are not a good class to be, particularly in the 3DS version which added more flaws and exacerbated old flaws, but I still like to use the Baron characters as Baron and even make some of the villagers Barons.
  2. Atlas: Similar to the above, I like to make him a Baron as he gets a unique model in the class.

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47 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

My Mia when I played Path of Radiance ended up a bit RNG-blessed (she was at least as good as Ike, who had himself gotten RNG-screwed).  Zihark probably is better than Mia normally, but I still ended up benching them both in favor of Stefan.

Stefan is good. He just has terrible luck, but that doesn't hurt him too much. 

 

48 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I never bothered with Rolf and am currently at the conclusion that both him and Shinon are garbage.  However, he might make a good Master Seal candidate on Normal at the very least if you're not giving any to your mounted units.  Endgame regular enemies on Normal should be promoted Level 10 at most, so you can definitely get away with early promotion there.

32 minutes ago, Mukmuk said:

I completely agree with you. Rolf (as mentioned) joins very weak, and the BEXP can go to better units anyways. Shinon leaves for literally 2/3 of the game and joins incredibly late, underleveled, and his recruitment is kind of iffy. I prefer to kill Shinon at the recruitment level and laugh at his face, since I never really liked him anyways. 

I have to disagree with both of you. 

He's hard to train at first because he starts at level 1 and joins in chapter 9, but he can prove to be very useful if trained up. He's extremely useful for dealing with the ravens in the ship chapters, and the abundance of flying enemies and ballistae make him very useful as the game goes on. I agree about Shinon, but I recruit him anyway. 

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17 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Come to think of it, if we're considering the use of Bonus EXP no better than Arena Abuse, I'm questioning if Astrid is any good either, mount be damned.

No, Astrid is still a phenomenal unit. That's the point of BEXP (even if it's "cheap")- to level up your weaker units. It's true that if you give any unit BEXP, they'll be good in PoR. It just so happens Astrid is the best unit you can get out of BEXP. You can compare average stats if you 20/1 Astrid VS, let's say, Rolf. On promotion she even gets axes. 

If there was no BEXP, Astrid would be trash. But there is, and the point of BEXP is to utilize it, so Astrid is good. 

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21 hours ago, Mukmuk said:

If there was no BEXP, Astrid would be trash. But there is, and the point of BEXP is to utilize it, so Astrid is good. 

Plus, of all the units to get late with paragon and feed kills to, she has basically the best class possible for it. Great move, full canto, ranged weapons. Perfect for taking potshots without slowing your army down much.

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22 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

He's hard to train at first because he starts at level 1 and joins in chapter 9, but he can prove to be very useful if trained up. He's extremely useful for dealing with the ravens in the ship chapters, and the abundance of flying enemies and ballistae make him very useful as the game goes on. I agree about Shinon, but I recruit him anyway. 

I have to agree with the other two guys - he's too much input for not enough output. It doesn't help that this game is arguably the most unkind to archers. Nor does it that he joins when the game is 1/3 over, and has to hope to kill enemies that are rather durable. Also, ballistae are useless in this game because they tend to be pointed at you anyway, meaning that even if you do disable them by killing the operator,  you probably also already killed whatever enemies you would've hoped to attack with it.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Honestly, Path of Radiance is easy enough that Astrid is very usable even without bonus experience. Letting her finish a few enemies very quickly starts to snowball her into a viable unit. She could potentially even start becoming useful on her recruitment map, from personal experience.

Edited by Etheus

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52 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I have to agree with the other two guys - he's too much input for not enough output. It doesn't help that this game is arguably the most unkind to archers. Nor does it that he joins when the game is 1/3 over, and has to hope to kill enemies that are rather durable. Also, ballistae are useless in this game because they tend to be pointed at you anyway, meaning that even if you do disable them by killing the operator,  you probably also already killed whatever enemies you would've hoped to attack with it.

1) How is Path of Radiance "unkind to archers"? I can't think of a single map where having an archer wasn't at least situationally useful. 2-3 Range is helpful, as is the bonus damage against flying units. 

2) I agree that ballistae are usually useless, but there are a few times when it's useful. In Chapter 19, you can use the ballista that's near the boss (Rolf is safe as its on a hill; just make sure you deal with Naesala) against enemy units. 

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Astrid joins in a chokepoint heavy defend map whit flyers, it's stupidly easy to make her gain several levels whitout even feeding kills, just by chipping at stuff. And she has basically 80% speed growths untill uou take away the knight ward. BEXP just makes her snowball quicker.

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18 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

1) How is Path of Radiance "unkind to archers"? I can't think of a single map where having an archer wasn't at least situationally useful. 2-3 Range is helpful, as is the bonus damage against flying units.

I think by that he means their especially subpar stats and poor availability.  Rolf has awful bases and Level for his join time and needs a lot of Bonus EXP investment simply to make him perform adequately in a niche role, investment that would be better spent on other units who are altogether more flexible.

Shinon is strong before he leaves, but similarly to Rolf will likely be far behind everyone else by the time he permanently rejoins.  Sure, his growth rates are great, but as we all know growth rates can't always be relied on to salvage a unit in time for them to start becoming genuine assets for meaningfully long.

Edited by Von Ithipathachai

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10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

1) How is Path of Radiance "unkind to archers"? I can't think of a single map where having an archer wasn't at least situationally useful. 2-3 Range is helpful, as is the bonus damage against flying units. 

2) I agree that ballistae are usually useless, but there are a few times when it's useful. In Chapter 19, you can use the ballista that's near the boss (Rolf is safe as its on a hill; just make sure you deal with Naesala) against enemy units. 

1) Durable enemies, effective damage is only 2x might, and the first map where archers can do effective damage, you have other sources (namely, Laguzslayers, as you get one from an info conversation and can potentially steal another from the boss). It doesn't help that longbows are pathetic. And this is on top of awful stats and availability.

2) Too bad that by then, you probably killed everything but the boss and the units near him (who are all out of range).

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7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

1) Durable enemies, effective damage is only 2x might, and the first map where archers can do effective damage, you have other sources (namely, Laguzslayers, as you get one from an info conversation and can potentially steal another from the boss). It doesn't help that longbows are pathetic. And this is on top of awful stats and availability.

2) Too bad that by then, you probably killed everything but the boss and the units near him (who are all out of range).

Oof, I had forgotten about Laguzslayers.  Wind magic is also effective against Bird Laguz on top of being able to counterattack at 1-Range, though it's less good against Ravens due to their high Res.

Not sure if I'd go so far as to consider Longbows "pathetic", though.  Statistically they don't seem that much more distant from Javelins and Hand Axes.  The real issue with them is their higher price and Weapon Rank than those.

But all this having been said, I think this conversation is starting to veer a little far away from being about bad characters we like using despite their flaws.  So I guess I'll just throw in some more Axe infantry along with Marty (i.e. Gonzalez, Rinkah, Charlotte).

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Forewarning, I'm very very gay for cute girls. So you might see a pattern here. Also it's rare for me to do efficiency or rank runs so I tend to go wild with the characters I use. 

Binding Blade

Cath: Cute, and I really liked her attitude! Also she was an interesting challenge to use in the later maps, what with her having only 5 str and thieves not promoting in that game. Still, she did her best and evade tanked like a boss. 

Fir: See above. She might not be bad per sé but who needs another sword user, a squishy and  volatile one at that with the cavalier trio and Dieck? Well to hell with that, she ended up becoming one of my main attackers.

Blazing Sword

Legault: Again, not exactly bad but he's unnecessary and actually worse than Matthew in HM. Still, purple is my favorite color and I like him so he was my primary thief once he arrived. 

Dart: You hold your head with your hands and scream as you see me use the Ocean Seal, plummeting my funds rank into the depths of Hades. I shrug and send Dart and Erk alone to fend several packs of enemies and watch them come out unscathed. 

Erk: I like snarky characters and up until Claude became a thing Serra was my favorite FE character, and their relationship is one of my favorite things in the franchise. He's usually been very consistent for me, and together with Priscilla, Serra and maybe even Canas they make sure everyone is good to go while blasting armored units to smithereens. 

Easy Stones 

L'Arachel: That's it, really. L'Arachel and her squad. 

Path of Radiance

Mia: The person who got me into FE did quite a good job selling me on her and by the time I got to play this game I was already extremely biased. Admittedly, I got lucky because mine got very solid growths and as such she ended up in my 5 top units by the end of the game. 

Elincia: Imagine saving up 20k of bonus exp just so you can use a princess who can't deal damage to save her life in a final map. 

Radiant Dawn

Ohoho baby. 

Micaiah: Yes indeed, I used Micaiah, in hard mode no less. Oh make no mistake, I suffered a great deal for my election. But the Dawn Brigade maps were already suffering anyway so it was just some extra challenge! Unfortunately she didn't go and become a beast like Elincia did so even with all the babysitting I ended up with something pre-promotion Rhys would have bested. But still, she's cute and I like her so that's the way things went. 

Tauroneo: Actually, what do people even think of RD Tauroneo? Armors are bad in this game too, yes, but I dunno. Either way he was instrumental for me, especially in Blood Contract. 

Mia: Read above. Also the Trueblade coat is so cool I just couldn't! 

Jill: I've seen a lot of people call Jill mediocre (and admittedly early on she's pretty meh) but I didn't care much for that, she was still one of my main characters and lord did she raise havoc when flying together with Haar. 

Lethe: Yes, RD Lethe is fucking terrible. Yes, I used her because cat girl cute. Moving on. 

(Also I breathe JillxLeathe) 

Heather: She's interesting because she's not bad but there's just many better characters in the game. Still, I used her in conjunction with Nephenee (sporting Provoke) and with Heather with Daunt and Imbue, the pair were a walking fountain of hate. It was one of my favorite combinations in my time playing the games of the saga. You can bet I had them reach support level A too. 

Sanaki: She's got her issues definitely but I enjoyed using her a lot. 

Naesala: Far and away the shittiest of the laguz royals, but I love this bastard to bits. 

And from Awakening onwards no unit could even be truly shitty so not much point in making this post longer. 

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I have a soft spot for Matthis and Tomas, in the Archanean games. In Jugdral, I love using Arden and Marty. As for Magvel, I love Marisa from the bottom of my heart and use her a lot. 

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On the subject of Astrid, I find growth units that have paragon are never bad unless they came in extremely late.

1 hour ago, Francesca said:

Tauroneo: Actually, what do people even think of RD Tauroneo? Armors are bad in this game too, yes, but I dunno. Either way he was instrumental for me, especially in Blood Contract. 

Armors are actually considered very good in RD, not as ridiculous as Wyverns, but not a class to overlook.

I think RD Tauroneo, as opposed to POR Tauroneo, is actually considered very good, let me check a tier list. Yup, he's quite high despite low availability.

1 hour ago, Francesca said:

And from Awakening onwards no unit could even be truly shitty so not much point in making this post longer. 

That isn't exactly correct, Awakening has Donnel and Virion for example.

 

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2 hours ago, Francesca said:

 And from Awakening onwards no unit could even be truly shitty so not much point in making this post longer. 

That's very generous - and far from correct. Three Houses has Raphael, Fates has Nyx, Arthur, Rinkah, and others.

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First of all, Lilina is NOT a bad unit, she's amazing. I used her in all my Binding Blade runs, HM included.

Ontopic, I think I used a number of bad units who turned into fun units.

  • FE5 Tanya: not an archers game, yet she supports back and forth with Othin - levelling her up to get into that sweet 1/99 spot. She was faaast, I'd train her again.
  • FE6 Wendy: wouldn't recommend her to anyone, yet I found myself training her up to Lv20 before promotion, and turning her into a wall afterwards. Keep a few good lances for her, haven't tried her on HM yet though.
  • FE6 Dorothy: people call her a bad unit, but all I see is a deadly archer overshadowed by Nomads and prepromotes. Starting stats are bad, but her growths are amazing.
  • FE6 Fir: what's better than a Swordmaster? 2 Swordmasters. Also sick Lv1 stats with HM bonuses.
  • 3H Flayn: bad reputation, but comes with Rescue/Fortify and godly Res. Sign me up please.
  • 3H Annette: something about her smashing anything with magic or Lightning Axe is charming. Yet she's made out of tinfoil paper.

On a bottom line, where does FE6 Gonzales and 3H Ignatz belong nowadays? I like them too.

Edited by Garlyle

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