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Mukmuk

Which "Bad" Characters do you Enjoy Using?

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9 hours ago, Francesca said:

Jill: I've seen a lot of people call Jill mediocre (and admittedly early on she's pretty meh) but I didn't care much for that, she was still one of my main characters and lord did she raise havoc when flying together with Haar. 

 

Um, what? Jill is widely considered the best character in RD, or at least on par/second to Haar. 

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1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

On a bottom line, where does FE6 Gonzales and 3H Ignatz belong nowadays? I like them too.

Hard to say on Ignatz. But I can safely say that Gonzales is mostly considered bad.

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Hard to say on Ignatz. But I can safely say that Gonzales is mostly considered bad.

While he has better Spd than your other unpromoted Axe infantry, he still suffers from low Skl and a bad weapon type, which adversely affect his hit rates and damage output.  I like him a lot, but I would probably place him mid to low-tier among Binding Blade's units.

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25 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

While he has better Spd than your other unpromoted Axe infantry, he still suffers from low Skl and a bad weapon type, which adversely affect his hit rates and damage output.  I like him a lot, but I would probably place him mid to low-tier among Binding Blade's units.

That's what I think too. It doesn't help his case that he's an infantry unit in a Horse Emblem game.

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On 10/11/2019 at 1:26 AM, NSSKG151 said:

L'Arachel in Sacred Stones. Sure I could probably use Natasha or Moulder as my healing unit but I'm willing to spend 30 minutes in Chapter 14 buying Barrier staves from the secret shop and having L'Arachel spam them so she can gain levels and catch up to the rest of the group.

Me: Man what scrubs use the FE8 trainees they’re just deadweight when they join.

Also me: Oh boy time to use L’Arachel!

(Ross is pretty solid though tbh)

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Honestly if you're only using top tier units in Sacred Stones what the hell are you doing

It's the easiest game in the entire damn series, using Amelia or Marisa isn't gonna make the game that much harder

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15 hours ago, Garlyle said:

First of all, Lilina is NOT a bad unit, she's amazing. I used her in all my Binding Blade runs, HM included.

FE6 Wendy: wouldn't recommend her to anyone, yet I found myself training her up to Lv20 before promotion, and turning her into a wall afterwards. Keep a few good lances for her, haven't tried her on HM yet though.

  • FE6 Dorothy: people call her a bad unit, but all I see is a deadly archer overshadowed by Nomads and prepromotes. Starting stats are bad, but her growths are amazing.
  • FE6 Fir: what's better than a Swordmaster? 2 Swordmasters. Also sick Lv1 stats with HM bonuses.

OK, about Lilina:

She has utterly mediocre bases and growths when she first joins, apart from the beastly 75% MAG growth. 35% Speed is just terrible, and you can't say her skill or defenses go particularly into her favor. She does get free levels in the Durandal Chapter (was it 8x? I honestly don't remember), but she struggles in later Chapters to be useful. She's just too frail. FE6 wasn't the kindest to magic users (I'm not talking about healers): For example, I'm sure most people would agree that Lugh is better than Lilina in an HM efficiency run (joins much earlier, lots of levels in between), but he still is a rather mediocre unit, which, again, tells you something about magic users in the game. 

Wendy: I mean, Barth will also be a wall if you put the work into him...

Dorothy: Yeah, you could also make the same argument for Rebecca. And about nomads, Sue is objectively better, in every way. 

Fir: I've got to say, I agree with you. Fir is very much under appreciated and underrated. 

But you know what? Fuck it, I'm using Lilina. Even if my brain tells me otherwise.

Edited by Mukmuk

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1 minute ago, Mukmuk said:

FE6 wasn't the kindest to magic users (I'm not talking about healers): For example, I'm sure most people would agree that Hugh is better than Lilina in an HM efficiency run (joins much earlier, lots of levels in between), but he still is a rather mediocre unit, which, again, tells you something about magic users in the game. 

Wait...  Don't you mean Lugh?  The name thing is confusing, I know.

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1 minute ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

Wait...  Don't you mean Lugh?  The name thing is confusing, I know.

Whoops! Darn Lugh and Hugh... 

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2 hours ago, Mukmuk said:

OK, about Lilina:

She has utterly mediocre bases and growths when she first joins, apart from the beastly 75% MAG growth. 35% Speed is just terrible, and you can't say her skill or defenses go particularly into her favor. She does get free levels in the Durandal Chapter (was it 8x? I honestly don't remember), but she struggles in later Chapters to be useful. She's just too frail. FE6 wasn't the kindest to magic users (I'm not talking about healers): For example, I'm sure most people would agree that Lugh is better than Lilina in an HM efficiency run (joins much earlier, lots of levels in between), but he still is a rather mediocre unit, which, again, tells you something about magic users in the game. 

Wendy: I mean, Barth will also be a wall if you put the work into him...

Dorothy: Yeah, you could also make the same argument for Rebecca. And about nomads, Sue is objectively better, in every way. 

Fir: I've got to say, I agree with you. Fir is very much under appreciated and underrated. 

But you know what? Fuck it, I'm using Lilina. Even if my brain tells me otherwise.

Only stat I considered too low for her is her defense in the long run, and skill is not a big issue for magic users: tomes are one of the more accurate weapons in the game. 8x is a wonderful source of experience for her to catch up with your current squad, so it's not that difficult to train her either. That huge mag stat will help her out to deal a lot of damage, or if you want her to be more flexible, use a simple heal staff to completely heal one of your allies. All that considered I don't see why people struggle using her later on when there are some really sick magic tomes out there for her - Aircalibur, Forblaze and Elfire. It's easier to work on her supports as well, and why not train her up when she becomes a unit who can recruit other units. Well people said that my Lilina is slow when I was showing it to them, but honestly that never felt to be a problem for me. I prefer her over Lugh, who might be faster, but can get screwed in Mag instead.

What FE6 was not kind to is axe users instead - or anyone who got weighted down by their equipment and got no accuracy. For Dorothy I meant that nice Str and Spd growth paired with Skl growth as well, so she may become a glass cannon pretty much. Sue can be dodgy and fast and mounted, hope she doesn't get stuck with low Str - I'm just saying that she's not as bad as people think.

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I like using Tanya, and the Ests in general; I really like growth units.

Micaiah it's a character that I also I like a lot to use it, but if you consider her bad or not depends of what exactly are you talking about (after all, not everyone is as mad as me to try to use Maria as a frontline unit in FE3).

Edited by Troykv

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22 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Only stat I considered too low for her is her defense in the long run, and skill is not a big issue for magic users: tomes are one of the more accurate weapons in the game. 8x is a wonderful source of experience for her to catch up with your current squad, so it's not that difficult to train her either. That huge mag stat will help her out to deal a lot of damage, or if you want her to be more flexible, use a simple heal staff to completely heal one of your allies. All that considered I don't see why people struggle using her later on when there are some really sick magic tomes out there for her - Aircalibur, Forblaze and Elfire. It's easier to work on her supports as well, and why not train her up when she becomes a unit who can recruit other units. Well people said that my Lilina is slow when I was showing it to them, but honestly that never felt to be a problem for me. I prefer her over Lugh, who might be faster, but can get screwed in Mag instead.

What FE6 was not kind to is axe users instead - or anyone who got weighted down by their equipment and got no accuracy. For Dorothy I meant that nice Str and Spd growth paired with Skl growth as well, so she may become a glass cannon pretty much. Sue can be dodgy and fast and mounted, hope she doesn't get stuck with low Str - I'm just saying that she's not as bad as people think.

Well, all your arguments are sound. They're all the arguments I use to convince myself to use Lilina! But... personal experience can't say much in the long run. Lilina is a good unit if you put the work into her, but the general consensus is that she's a lot of investment for not enough output. For the sake of efficiency, she's not considered a good unit, and that makes sense. Again, personal experience doesn't determine whether a unit is good- technically. 

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On 10/16/2019 at 5:56 AM, Mukmuk said:

Well, all your arguments are sound. They're all the arguments I use to convince myself to use Lilina! But... personal experience can't say much in the long run. Lilina is a good unit if you put the work into her, but the general consensus is that she's a lot of investment for not enough output. For the sake of efficiency, she's not considered a good unit, and that makes sense. Again, personal experience doesn't determine whether a unit is good- technically. 

Just to let you know, I'm always ready to defend Lilina, she's a good unit in my book. Investing in a unit is not new to me, as I do like training them up and seeing all those level up screens.

So I wonder what do you mean by not enough output from her.

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No one I can think of per se.

Lilina? Her relatively low skill doesn't make much difference when Anima tomes are very accurate in the first place, it's not like Mages can go up against a muscle-bound thug most of the time anyway - and Lilina has ways to get around that as long as she isn't up against anyone equipped with a Javelin or a Hand Axe - and, both she and Roy can use each other's support bonuses to help each other pull their weights along with other support bonuses. (On the other hand, Lugh isn't Rutger anyway.) Plus, Chapter 8x is essentially her training ground.

Fir? Why choose one of either her vs Rutger? Why not both? Swordies are utterly broken in this game, and Fir is no exception. Ridiculous crits? She's got that. Avoid tank? Only improves with traning - and I think she's actually better in this than Rutger is? Besides, Chapter 9 is essentially her training ground as well.

Mozu? Reclass her into a sniper. You actually need to take initiative in this game instead of relaying on enemies taking the bait in most other games - rendering Snipers' drawbacks irrevalent. Then there is attack stancing which allows her to gain levels safer, and also allows extra damage from adjacent partners. Then there is the high might and accuracy of bows which also works well with Mozu's modified stats. All of this got me a Mozu that can get up to near 50% crit rate with killer weapons, a near-guarranteed 100% accuracy, and with damage almost always above 20HP. Oh, and she can almost always double, while, for example, her husband Silas (in my Conquest LP; see below) cannot with his Javelin unlike in past games.

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Every time I play RD, I just have to use Eddie. I can't help it. wrath is a ton of fun early (and really helps his damage output if you're careful), and he gets a unique weapon and cool coat later! Even on my last playthrough where I didn't take him to the tower, he still came 3rd in kills lol

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On 10/17/2019 at 2:24 AM, Garlyle said:

Just to let you know, I'm always ready to defend Lilina, she's a good unit in my book. Investing in a unit is not new to me, as I do like training them up and seeing all those level up screens.

Well, I just went back to one of my Binding Blade save files just to address this. 

As a level 20/5 Sage, my Lilina has 31 HP and 5 Def, which is nearly identical to the average stats. This is chapter 16x. Again, nothing too out of the ordinary. I also have to comment on that 27 magic. Jeez. 

Typical axe users (as the game progresses) will deal at least 20+ damage to her if they connect. She does have 17 res to stave off those pesky magic users(again, nearly identical to average stats), but melee weapon users are more common in FE6. She also gets outspeed by some Mercs and Heroes (which will deal 17x2 typically). Promoted units nearly one round her (take enemy Garret as an example- on my Lilina he nearly kills her with an Iron Axe). 

Comparing her to Clarine: While Clarine may share similar defenses, she makes up for it with absolutely absurd speed, skill, and luck, enabling her to dodge just about everything and avoid being doubled, like, forever. Lilina doesn't share that, unfortunately. 

Just saying, she's hard to keep alive. A little bad luck and she's dead. 

To clarify: this isn't really a detriment to me, or you. I just feel like I need to state the reasons as for why Lilina isn't considered a good unit typically, in efficiency runs, etc. It's always good to present both sides of the issue. 

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Awakening: Honestly is any unit actually terrible here? I don't think so but I've seen some Donnel hate before but all I can think of is how he carried me in Lunatic after using the seal from renown rewards to turn him into a mercenary. The only other units who where actually competent where Robin and Frederick early game.

Blazing: I know theifs are great utility but I take Matthew with me even when I don't need a thief all the way to the end as an assassin. Serra is also overshadowed as both a healer and light magic user by Priscilla/Lucius but I still use her and show her so much favoritism that she's usually leaving Lyn's story at level 18.

PoR: Beast units are considered terrible from my understanding. Especially someone like Mordecai who transforms later in the map than someone like Lethe who transforms right at the start. I still used Mordecai and never really found the transformation thing to be an issue. It's fun to see him wreck shit when he's finally his tiger self and no enemy can really stand up to him.

Fates: Mozu as an archer is a godsend in Conquest where Niles is the only other bow user for most of the game and since she has early access she still has the advantage over other characters who need to train up their bow skill once they promote. There is no lack of enemy pegasus/kinshi knights and it is real useful to have an extra bow at hand to deal with them.

3H: I also don't think Cyril is bad or at least not as bad as people make him out to be but I guess by popular opinion he belongs here too. I think he's amazing coming with good ranks in axes and bows, easy access to deathblow, extraordinary spd and skill, and and the busted point blank volley at only C+ (the only other characters who can use it is Leonie at A). A total crit machine as a war master in the late game and one of my only characters who could one round beasts with the shields still on. Manuela is also someone I like using but I have no excuses for her other than she's one of the only characters who doesn't mind the speed penalty as a mortal savant and eventually gets bolting.

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@Mukmuk I guess that's one way to look at it. That low Def and high Mag is a trademark of her, and like other ranged units you don't want them to stay in the range of melee enemies - unless you think you can bait some mages, 17 Res is not too shabby. Seems to be an issue if you don't know what you are doing, or you are rushing too much.

On the bottom line you can't really compare Clarine and Lilina. Clarine can dodge very nicely, and she can use staves on a horse - the blessing of the troubadours. But she won't be killing enemies with her low Mag, even if she doubles them - most likely gets stuck with E rank Fire tomes and hardly get out of it. I did A support her with Rutger to make sure they both dodge everything the game throws at me. And Lilina while do her magic, I must protecc.

Guess that makes clear why people prefer Lugh. While the endurance is only slightly better, he can get dodgy as well.

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FE6: Dunno if Echidna is consider bad, but I always go to her chapter since I really like her.

FE7: Isadora is considered not worth it, but she made me love female Paladins so I'll always use her.

FE8: Tana and L' Archel are my girls. Lute because of high damage porn.

FE13: Should I put Chrom!Kjelle here? She's a child unit in Awakening, but I usually make her into a Swordmaster.

FE14: Fighter!Beruka is fun and she looks cool as a Zerker. Same with Charlotte.

FE15: Mage!Faye. Same reason for using Lute.

FE16: Mercedes in anything but a magic class. I'm even doing Warrior!Mercedes on my Maddening Run. I have a problem.

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6 hours ago, SageHarpuiaJDJ said:

FE6: Dunno if Echidna is consider bad, but I always go to her chapter since I really like her.

I'm not sure right now who is considered better of Echidna and Bartre, but I personally prefer her.

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3 minutes ago, Troykv said:

I'm not sure right now who is considered better of Echidna and Bartre, but I personally prefer her.

I'm pretty sure Echidna is generally considered better than Bartre.  She has better Skl and Spd and can fall back on Swords if she needs more accuracy.

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