Case for promoting Lyn

[Dr. C]

So... I have noticed that general consensus I've seen on both naked and unbanked runs is that promoting Eliwood and Lyn is ill advised in Rank red runs and in unbanked runs they generally recommend promoting Eliwood for the mount. 

However I generally promote Lyn first and here is why: Uhai

Few can double him and fewer still can do so without being weighed down for a long sword. Lyn can potentially cap speed quickly making killing Uhai with the Manikatti practically a sure thing as I generally got for the Hector Florima- Lyn, -Eliwood  Hector support ring so Lyn will be lacking +20 Crit. +5 avoid or +17 Crit and +7 Avoid spending on how you build Lynn's supports with Flirina and Eliwood.

the potential of critting twice with the Manii Katti s pretty good allowing for a warp/Rescue maneuver that ensures the death of my least favorite boss in the game in Moroh Uhai. 

Now I will not deny Eiwood's mount has some great utility.

However, Eliwood doesn't have a lot of boss killing potential in the end game. That's the trade off you make. Lyn getting more levels means higher speed. That's why I do it.

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Dr. C

[samthedigital]

It's not really worth training Lyn for a single fight given how lackluster she is everywhere else. The game hands us Athos who can tackle everything anyway. Uhai is particularly bad too because he can be trapped by any 3 characters and can't retaliate at 1 range.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If we want to be optimal in a Ranked run, I wouldn't use either of the Heaven Seals. They're worth 20K a pop, same as an Earth seal. Even if Eliwood has the better promotion, him going on a rampage with a javelin in chapter 29 is just a fun novelty and not a task only he could accomplish. And Ch29 is his best theoretical performance post promotion. You still want to gain a healthy few levels for Lyn and Eliwood, ideally early in the game since they're combat performance leaves them totally innefectual later to pad your exp rank, but promoting them feels wasteful when there's so little to gain from them later.

As for Uhai, mobbing him with one ranged attackers shouldn't be too difficult. The enemies of the final chapter have scary stats, but you only fight 2-3 at a time. Uhai should go down from one hit each from a couple of your strongest attackers.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Glennstavos

[Dr. C]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

If we want to be optimal in a Ranked run, I wouldn't use either of the Heaven Seals. They're worth 20K a pop, same as an Earth seal. Even if Eliwood has the better promotion, him going on a rampage with a javelin in chapter 29 is just a fun novelty and not a task only he could accomplish. And Ch29 is his best theoretical performance post promotion. You still want to gain a healthy few levels for Lyn and Eliwood, ideally early in the game since they're combat performance leaves them totally innefectual later to pad your exp rank, but promoting them feels wasteful when there's so little to gain from them later.

As for Uhai, mobbing him with one ranged attackers shouldn't be too difficult. The enemies of the final chapter have scary stats, but you only fight 2-3 at a time. Uhai should go down from one hit each from a couple of your strongest attackers.

I actually really appreciate your insights on Eliwood here. Always wondered to myself if he was worth the trouble of promoting to begin with in ranked runs at all.

Would brave weapon usage be worth it for Uhai and his cohorts?

2 hours ago, samthedigital said:

It's not really worth training Lyn for a single fight given how lackluster she is everywhere else. The game hands us Athos who can tackle everything anyway. Uhai is particularly bad too because he can be trapped by any 3 characters and can't retaliate at 1 range.

That is a good point but... I just feel like, I would rather just have Uhai killed quickly than lose three units to surrounding  but  will say it’s entirely doable plus there is always reset abusing eclipse on turn 1.

[samthedigital]

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That is a good point but... I just feel like, I would rather just have Uhai killed quickly than lose three units to surrounding  but  will say it’s entirely doable plus there is always reset abusing eclipse on turn 1.

There are plenty of decent ways to kill Uhai; I'm just giving you the easiest ones. If we don't train Eliwood or Lyn we already have two units that aren't capable of doing anything else that can block Uhai. You also have to consider what it takes to get Lyn to that point. Even if she did hypothetically save turns killing Uhai it doesn't make it worth training her for one specific thing; turn count isn't everything.

[Dr. C]

8 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

There are plenty of decent ways to kill Uhai; I'm just giving you the easiest ones. If we don't train Eliwood or Lyn we already have two units that aren't capable of doing anything else that can block Uhai. You also have to consider what it takes to get Lyn to that point. Even if she did hypothetically save turns killing Uhai it doesn't make it worth training her for one specific thing; turn count isn't everything.

Honestly when you put it in that context it makes sense. Agreeing is a conversation killed but what can I do when you make a valid point? 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

5 hours ago, Dr. C said:

Would brave weapon usage be worth it for Uhai and his cohorts?

Brave weapons are always great against an opponent faster than you. If you were doing a ranked run you need to be a bit cognizant of the weapons you're using, their value is appreciated via their current durability at the end of the game. So ranked runs often end by using your remaining hammerne uses on expensive stuff that's well used throughout the run like brave weapons and the rapier. This really comes into play for that final chapter where they're hoisting S rank weapons at you, those cost 600G per hit to use, most players avoid wielding them altogether. And two hits with a brave lance or brave bow is 500G. Brave swords and brave axes are not nearly so expensive so those would be preferred for the final chapter.

[Florete]

The argument of who promotes 'first' is dumb. The same people who argue that Lyn has to wait for the second Heaven Seal will also say that Lyn and Eliwood are bad units and don't need to be used. If they're bad, why are they both getting used together? Especially when they are an active detriment to each other. It's like saying Bartre has to promote after Dorcas, or Wil has to promote after Rebecca. Why are both being used in the first place?

As for value, well, I'll agree that raising Lyn just to fight Uhai isn't a great idea, but I don't really like the "worth it" argument in general. People use who they want to use even if they're bad, no one cares about a character they like being "worth it" or not so I don't like to consider it.

As far as ranked, Funds is overrated. It's not so simple that you can just ignore it, but it's not so strict that you have to just hoard everything ever. Play smart, only sell as much as you need to buy what you need, acquire all relevant items from maps, don't spam expensive weapons, and you'll be fine. In my EHM S rank run I promoted Lyn, Serra, Priscilla, Florina, Raven, and Heath, used a couple stat boosters and still came out ~50k over the Funds requirement.

I still hold that Lyn is a good unit, but I know most don't agree with that.

[samthedigital]

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I still hold that Lyn is a good unit, but I know most don't agree with that.

Good in what way? She's footlocked and doesn't have 1-2 range combat, and even if that didn't matter her combat stats aren't stellar given that she's frail. If you're trying to say that she's good relative to a game where a unit isn't viable at all then I guess sure, but that's not the definition of good we're using here; it's relative to other units.

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People use who they want to use even if they're bad, no one cares about a character they like being "worth it" or not so I don't like to consider it.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't find bad units fun to use, and we don't care about what people like when talking about Lyn in a practical sense anyway. Else what is the point of comparing characters?

[Dr. C]

12 hours ago, Florete said:

The argument of who promotes 'first' is dumb. The same people who argue that Lyn has to wait for the second Heaven Seal will also say that Lyn and Eliwood are bad units and don't need to be used. If they're bad, why are they both getting used together? Especially when they are an active detriment to each other. It's like saying Bartre has to promote after Dorcas, or Wil has to promote after Rebecca. Why are both being used in the first place?

As for value, well, I'll agree that raising Lyn just to fight Uhai isn't a great idea, but I don't really like the "worth it" argument in general. People use who they want to use even if they're bad, no one cares about a character they like being "worth it" or not so I don't like to consider it.

As far as ranked, Funds is overrated. It's not so simple that you can just ignore it, but it's not so strict that you have to just hoard everything ever. Play smart, only sell as much as you need to buy what you need, acquire all relevant items from maps, don't spam expensive weapons, and you'll be fine. In my EHM S rank run I promoted Lyn, Serra, Priscilla, Florina, Raven, and Heath, used a couple stat boosters and still came out ~50k over the Funds requirement.

I still hold that Lyn is a good unit, but I know most don't agree with that.

Good to know!  And yeah I agree. 

I think her low defense growth is a bit overstated.

I mean Kent and Sain don’t exactly have tanky growths (granted better base) and they turn out fine. In general, I did a ranking of Def growths of all the characters and found that most clock in at 30 or lower and Bartee is in the top tier in Defense growth but no one is claiming he is better than Lyn.

I agree that “worth it” is problematic. I simply have a preference for training up Lyn’s speed over Elwood’s meh caps he probably won’t achieve and dubious utility with a javelin. 

6 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Good in what way? She's footlocked and doesn't have 1-2 range combat, and even if that didn't matter her combat stats aren't stellar given that she's frail. If you're trying to say that she's good relative to a game where a unit isn't viable at all then I guess sure, but that's not the definition of good we're using here; it's relative to other units.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't find bad units fun to use, and we don't care about what people like when talking about Lyn in a practical sense anyway. Else what is the point of comparing characters?

To reiterate I think Lyn’s lack of durability is overstated. 

Lyn doubles everything and with the Mani Katti, can function like a Myrmidon. I find swordlock arguments kind of comical because the foundation bowlock being bad is no enemy phase but no enemy phase with certain units which are generally token ranged enemies is hardly a problem.

Lyn isn’t going to frontline lances but she can take out a pesky armor Knight or cavalier and help the rest of your army advance. The number of times Lyn made advancing my army much easier as happened countless times. She has her problems but her “situational use” occurs in a lot of situations.

[Florete]

6 hours ago, samthedigital said:

I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't find bad units fun to use, and we don't care about what people like when talking about Lyn in a practical sense anyway. Else what is the point of comparing characters?

The point of comparing characters is to see which is better than the other, not if one is "worth it" or not. Sure, some people don't find bad units fun to use, but that's their preference. Other people's preference is to use the units they like, regardless of them being bad or not.

When talking about Lyn in a practical sense, we care about what she can do, not if some people think she's "worth it" or not.

[samthedigital]

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When talking about Lyn in a practical sense, we care about what she can do, not if some people think she's "worth it" or not.

... I was saying that Lyn's single hypothetical utility against Uhai doesn't make her worth the trouble elsewhere; it's not a real case for promoting Lyn.

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Sure, some people don't find bad units fun to use, but that's their preference. 

Yes, and this isn't really relevant to this discussion. If someone is going to justify their use of Lyn they should not say that it is because she's useful. If someone is using Lyn because they think she's good in unranked play they are misguided.

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I think her low defense growth is a bit overstated.

I mean Kent and Sain don’t exactly have tanky growths (granted better base) and they turn out fine.

You just explained the reason why their durability is so much better on your own. I'll add that Lyn's HP is another factor. Her durability really is that bad.

 

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I find swordlock arguments kind of comical because the foundation bowlock being bad is no enemy phase but no enemy phase with certain units which are generally token ranged enemies is hardly a problem.

Enemy formations are not usually this simple. Take the chapter after Lyn's join chapter for example. There are 2 range locked units, 1-2 range units, and 1 range units. We'll ignore the fact that Lyn probably isn't doing so well against them (remember that most enemies have lances, and most of the axe locked units have bad stats), but she is going to be completely incapable of clearing the way or doing anything useful in the frontlines.

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Lyn isn’t going to frontline lances but she can take out a pesky armor Knight or cavalier and help the rest of your army advance. The number of times Lyn made advancing my army much easier as happened countless times. She has her problems but her “situational use” occurs in a lot of situations.

Can you give any specific examples? I can't think of many examples besides *maybe* Dragon's Gate. Otherwise there are a lot of units that can contribute on the back ranks, and Lyn has durability issues against several enemies. She's not even great at that except against axe locked units, and most of the cast can take care of those.

[Florete]

9 hours ago, samthedigital said:

... I was saying that Lyn's single hypothetical utility against Uhai doesn't make her worth the trouble elsewhere; it's not a real case for promoting Lyn.

And I agreed with that.

9 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Yes, and this isn't really relevant to this discussion. If someone is going to justify their use of Lyn they should not say that it is because she's useful. If someone is using Lyn because they think she's good in unranked play they are misguided.

It is relevant, though. Someone doesn't need to justify their use of Lyn; that's my point. This topic proposed a need to justify using Lyn, and I find that's the wrong way of thinking.

[Paper Jam]

I've always promoted Lyn, and never regretted it.

[blackestheart13]

I know the infamous PEMN but I'd promote Lyn over Eliwood ANY day of the week. Not only does she almost always turn out just blessed from LHM, her utility is so invaluable for clearing out certain enemies that come in huge density. Dread Isle cavaliers can be down right infuriating and (for me at least) she can freely clear out nomads in one shot that just keep harassing the cavs meh hit rates (plus the RNs hate me). She's also almost my extensive Uhai killer in that level for essentially 100 free EXP cause Florina support is stupid good for her.

Moving later into the game she's also extremely clutch in Living Legend for me. She does a great job baiting the stupid axe maniacs, faces virtually nonexistent hit rates against them, and always doubles. If we're scared of the fliers, we have a reaver around for that (possibly) or she's still just likely to dodge at least one or two of them.

Finally she promotes. I give her my first seal because I HATE BERN. Lyn + Iron/Steel Bow = enemy in the way gone. Even more busted if I have spare Longbow laying around. She's just such a reliable dodge tank in certain levels. Having the bow also has its niches when funneling enemies into certain units too.An enemy will obviously prioritize her first cause she can't counter but then once she's only exposed on one tile, the enemies have no choice but to attack whoever else they can crash into. Oh and she downright bodies Ursula in BBD with the Mani Katti. 

But that's not all. Her high speed makes her a PRIME candidate for picking off Luna Druids at 3 range or any other annoying casters. She's accurate enough to have pretty reliable hit rates on Lloyd in CoD (and could double him too actually) and was all around one of my best 5 units. I just finished my first HHM last night actually and while I TOTALLY understand the Mount argument for Eliwood, Lyn was just invaluable for cutting down mobs of melee enemies with almost no chance to die or even get hit. I will not deny her lack of a reliable 1-2 range sucks. This was EXTREMELY prominent in the initial push of CoD when I literally just had Barrier boosted Triangle Attack murder hordes of enemies each turn. But where I needed Lyn to shine, she always delivered.

She even had her great utility in the final map. She has killer damage against Uhai, she can chip or almost outright OHKO most mages in the top or bottom room. She's also great at baiting an attack from Brendan's partner warrior so you can pick them off separately while Hector tanks most of the right side after turn 1. She even has effective damage against the dragon which COULD ORKO it with a B+ Florina support and Filla's Might proc'ing 4 crits (unlikely I know) but it's totally possible. 

Overall I'd say she's more worth it than Eliwood whose only benefits are a good 1-2 range, a bit better mobility and a free Hector support. At the end of the day, her overall combat capabilities for surpassed his "utility" and Eliwood's mounted benefits aren't really needed when you have Prissy and Florina who can take care of carrying Hector for me anyway with the both of them being a LOT more useful than his meh bases and extreme RNG prone doom. Even with Durandal he offers next to no utility against the Dragon outside of boosting Hector's damage output. 

Again I know PEMN and nobody will ever "tier" her higher than him because Sword-lock blah blah blah no horse. 

[Dr. C]

5 hours ago, blackestheart13 said:

 

Again I know PEMN and nobody will ever "tier" her higher than him because Sword-lock blah blah blah no horse. 

Phew! What a read!

Agree with you on all those points.

Eliwood deserves some love though because before promotion Rapier is an inferior but still useful Mani Kati, it does get you through some tough spots in the early game and conserves the Wolf Beil. 

I don’t understand tier lists sometimes because you have rotated your units for experience. You’re not going to have team mounted all the time. Even Will and Rebecca need kills.

[samthedigital]

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I don’t understand tier lists sometimes because you have rotated your units for experience.

A lot of tier lists these days don't assume ranked play. I haven't really seen a modern ranked tier list; they're all pretty old and outdated by today's standards.

[Dr. C]

On 10/25/2019 at 7:25 PM, samthedigital said:

A lot of tier lists these days don't assume ranked play. I haven't really seen a modern ranked tier list; they're all pretty old and outdated by today's standards.

Let’s start an S Rank Tier List Thread

On 10/22/2019 at 9:52 AM, samthedigital said:

.You just explained the reason why their durability is so much better on your own. I'll add that Lyn's HP is another factor. Her durability really is that bad.

Enemy formations are not usually this simple. Take the chapter after Lyn's join chapter for example. There are 2 range locked units, 1-2 range units, and 1 range units. We'll ignore the fact that Lyn probably isn't doing so well against them (remember that most enemies have lances, and most of the axe locked units have bad stats), but she is going to be completely incapable of clearing the way or doing anything useful in the frontlines.

Can you give any specific examples? I can't think of many examples besides *maybe* Dragon's Gate. Otherwise there are a lot of units that can contribute on the back ranks, and Lyn has durability issues against several enemies. She's not even great at that except against axe locked units, and most of the cast can take care of those.

Okay to clarify regarding defense, I was simply trying to make the point that defense growths do not determine the quality of the unit plus it would be intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge Lyn’s more obvious shortcomings.

In the chapter where you recruit Raven, Knights and horses are everywhere. Kent and Spain are good but they can’t one round armor Knights. Lyn can and I’d she doesn’t dodge, she can be topped off in the same turn with Priscilla or Serra. Your frontliners need to keep advancing to get to the silver sword thief.

I don’t deny that she isn’t a frontline unit and her survivabikity is suspect but she is heads and shoulders better than Eliwood which is my case for promoting Lyn, not so much that she’s a “good unit”. I don’t necessarily think she is a bad one. I would call her okay. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Dr. C

[samthedigital]

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In the chapter where you recruit Raven, Knights and horses are everywhere. Kent and Spain are good but they can’t one round armor Knights. Lyn can and I’d she doesn’t dodge, she can be topped off in the same turn with Priscilla or Serra. Your frontliners need to keep advancing to get to the silver sword thief.

There are a grand total of two mounted units and one knight that Lyn can reasonably reach near the start of that chapter, and she doesn't one round the Knight. Priscilla has to go recruit Raven, so she doesn't have time to sit around healing Lyn. Lyn doesn't have time to do much else.

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I don’t deny that she isn’t a frontline unit and her survivabikity is suspect but she is heads and shoulders better than Eliwood which is my case for promoting Lyn

You could also just not use any of them. Lyn doesn't have to be compared to Eliwood. If you do want to compare them though... Promoting Lyn before Eliwood doesn't actually make any difference. Eliwood is better for Battle Before Dawn because movement is really important for that chapter. Neither is really any better in the other defend map. That leaves a chapter with some wyverns that Lyn can probably? one round with a bow, but it means she isn't useful on enemy phase; it's not a huge selling point for her.