Let's check personal growths to see how (un)balanced Birthright is

[mangasdeouf]

I chose to compare total growth rates:

Mozu: 370 (with aptitude)

Saizo: 335

Hayato: 315

Azama: 310, Azura: 310, Sakura: 310

Hinoka: 305

Mozu: 290 (without aptitude), Kaden: 290, Ryoma: 290

Takumi: 285, Silas: 285

Oboro: 280, Kaze: 280

Orochi: 275

Scarlet: 270

Hana: 265, Jakob: 265

Felicia: 260, Kagero: 260

Rinkah: 255

Subaki: 250

Hinata: 235

Setsuna: 225

Reina: 195

I think we can say this game does BLATANT FAVORITISM towards ROYALS, MALE NINJAS AND HYBRID UNITS alongside growth units who start level 1 so it's legit, it's their whole design.

On the other hand, except Azama, EVERY WEIRD STAT DISTRIBUTION UNIT HAS GARBAGE TOTAL GROWTHS on top of being really bad in certain stats, like WTF 15% spd Orochi and Hinata, couldn't they at least have 20-25%? That's ridiculous. Subaki's 5% res, 20% spd doesn't help either, alongside a mediocre 30% strength as a tank in a low strength class. At least make him Palla type, but not this deceiving thing... Rinkah who doesn't have any HP/strength on her own, getting everything from her class, while she has skill only from her personal growths and not at all from her class... Setsuna OMG, seriously, she's UNDERLEVELLED, has MEDIOCRE BASE STATS and THE WORST GROWTH TOTAL of any non prepromote unit and barely better distribution with everything into speed and res and mediocre str/skl.

When you see these numbers, don't you want to fire IS BR team? I do, seriously I do... and Conquest is even more into joke units I believe, with a slow mercenary with high str (who should be a fighter), a medium spd no attack high def/res mercenary (who could be, say, a cavalier), a slow and weak dark mage with high skill and average def, a fast dark mage (fast for a dark mage, still too slow to do much with her speed) with average magic (her bases seriously blow) and res and inexistant skl/lck/hp/def, a weak wyvern with good res growth and high skl, a PP cavalier with EP personal skill and so on...

Yeah, this game's bias is seriously going to a point of me wanting to put every stat booster into the weakest units and say screw you to IS, while farming ninja/thieves to get even more stat boosters (it's very time consuming though, but can be made worth with a profiteer capped luck unit with good stats that cleans everything, like the Keaton I took from DT I think it was, top rank in castle visits in European version, with salvage blow, renewal on top of his personal free forging materials).

Edited October 23, 2019 by mangasdeouf

[Parrhesia]

I wonder why hybrid units and Ests might need to have higher total growths than normal units...

[Flere210]

Hybrid units should have higher growths because they have 1 more relevant stat. And Ests should have ff6 Karel Growths because otherwise they are bottom tier(mozu is not an est). Other than that the game clearly does not want the siblings to have real competition. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Flere210

[mangasdeouf]

7 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Hybrid units should have higher growths because they have 1 more relevant stat. And Ests should have ff6 Karel Growths because otherwise they are bottom tier(mozu is not an est). Other than that the game clearly does not eant the sibling to have real competition. 

They could have a little more, here Saizo has 55% more total than his own brother, with only 45% into magic, so he still has 10% non hybrid growth over Kaze, his only down point is having unimpressive base+growth in speed and being the lowest res ninja isn't a real drawback since he's got the highest def and he's got 5% less hp growth than Kaze with more base HP than Kaze could get in the 4 levels separating them. Onii-sama really beats Nii-chan by a good margin (+ Kaze's awful strength cap in an already low strength cap class hurts Kaze a lot and he needs to go mechanist to ever get acceptable str+def, which makes him loose on res).

[DragonFlames]

Royal bias confirmed.

I've honestly been saying that since shortly after the game came out.

[Flere210]

1 minute ago, mangasdeouf said:

They could have a little more, here Saizo has 55% more total than his own brother, with only 45% into magic, so he still has 10% non hybrid growth over Kaze, his only down point is having unimpressive base+growth in speed and being the lowest res ninja isn't a real drawback since he's got the highest def and he's got 5% less hp growth than Kaze with more base HP than Kaze could get in the 4 levels separating them. Onii-sama really beats Nii-chan by a good margin (+ Kaze's awful strength cap in an already low strength cap class hurts Kaze a lot and he needs to go mechanist to ever get acceptable str+def, which makes him loose on res).

Sure, but there is so much to consider that comparing total growth rates does not help much imo. 

Kaze join in every route and as better aviability, and kagero has the best strenght/speed combination, wich are the stats a ninja need the most, so maybe they felt she had to have lower stat total to compensate. A famous comparisson is 3.5 half orc, that got +2 strenght, -2 intelligence and -2 charisma because for a warrior type strenght is so much more important.

I can kinda see the point of some units, for example Rinkah is likely the tankiest unit in the game where every class has average defense or less, so i kinda see why they felt the need to limit her offense. But this is Intsys and they can't balance a game if their life depend on it so obviously they fucked up whit half of the cast.

[mangasdeouf]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Royal bias confirmed.

I've honestly been saying that since shortly after the game came out.

It's not only royal bias, it's side characters absolutely denied a chance to be played for efficiency/LTC! It's really reducing the replayability when one makes subpar units copletely irrelevant just because. I could as well give Ryoma a Hana's blade and let ennemies use hexing rod on him at that point, he wouldn't even be worse than Hana. Xander has 22 base def, which alone makes him good at taking hits, alongside 38 HP, the best HP pool except Revelations Silas, 23 str, 18 skl and 20 luck (10 crit evade + 10 from Siegfried).

[DragonFlames]

Just now, mangasdeouf said:

It's not only royal bias, it's side characters absolutely denied a chance to be played for efficiency/LTC! It's really reducing the replayability when one makes subpar units copletely irrelevant just because. I could as well give Ryoma a Hana's blade and let ennemies use hexing rod on him at that point, he wouldn't even be worse than Hana. Xander has 22 base def, which alone makes him good at taking hits, alongside 38 HP, the best HP pool except Revelations Silas, 23 str, 18 skl and 20 luck (10 crit evade + 10 from Siegfried).

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I hate the Royals a lot.

[mangasdeouf]

Just now, DragonFlames said:

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I hate the Royals a lot.

I wish I could upvote.

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, mangasdeouf said:

I wish I could upvote.

I sometimes wish the same, actually.

[mangasdeouf]

When I see this...Setsuna has 60% less GR than Takumi and 85% less than Sakura, another potential bow wielder starting low level with mediocre str in base class. But Sakura's bow is more occasional while Setsuna's is her only use.

PS: for a no-royals no ninja no pre-promotes run, you have to choose between servants, Silas, Mozu.

In BR: Setsuna Azama Hinata Oboro Hana Subaki Hayato Rinkah Orochi Kaden (although he's technically a lord), which let you use: 1 archer, 1 unpromoted healer (I think Subaki and Orochi will be much more useful here once promoted), 2 swordies, 1 sky knight, 1 lance fighter, 2 diviners, 1 oni and 1 shapeshifter. 5 with decent def (several who need a seal to get more def or speed or whatever stat is needed), 6 with passable to decent res (counting Setsuna, Hana and Subaki, which let you Orochi, Kaden and Azama who can tank them better because of HP or 1-2range counter + higher res). Hayato could go to oni to have a 2nd Rinkah with more HP and less acc (at least he won't be OHKO or ORKO in chap 9)

In CQ: Laslow Peri Selena Beruka Odin Niles Effie Arthur Nyx Charlotte Benny Keaton (Flora if she's in the same case as Jakob/Felicia): 2 mercenaries, 2 fighters, 1 wyvern, 2 cavaliers, 2 dark mages, 2 knights, 1 thief, 1 shapeshifter (, 1 servant if allowed). Few can take magic hits at all, CQ non royals really have low res. Only Benny is really fine against mages if they don't double (ninja Benny is funny for he remains bulky but he also becomes average in speed and he grows much more res, and doesn't need wary fighter, + a tank with shuriken is very nice to set up kills).

No Azura hurts

PS: Hero Benny has 32 HP, 15 str, 20 skl, 11 spd, 12 luck, 18+2 def and 11 res at base, might be worth considering as his best class, if he goes fighter he has the time to grind axe ranks (+5 HP gives him 37 HP lol, he's nearly no Siegfried Xander at base with an instant promo, just lacking some speed), it's insane how underestimated he is while he could do that so easily.

Edited October 23, 2019 by mangasdeouf

[Armchair General]

7 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

I wonder why hybrid units and Ests might need to have higher total growths than normal units...

Well, the class system isn't helping, here.

But spamming poison strike will solve everything.

[Lightcosmo]

Not to be that person, but isn't this every FE in a nutshell? They always have good and bad characters, that's all there is to it, really. And their "main" characters are usually better, it's not unusual or anything.

[mangasdeouf]

On 10/23/2019 at 10:55 PM, lightcosmo said:

Not to be that person, but isn't this every FE in a nutshell? They always have good and bad characters, that's all there is to it, really. And their "main" characters are usually better, it's not unusual or anything.

I felt like the difference was even bigger in Fates, Radiant Dawn is known to be completely unbalanced but that's what you get by putting together 3 games and casts in one and having availability issues. Fates has 3 different games separated but they do the same balance issues (+ Hana is NERFED in IK while this game's ennemies are a lot stronger than BR's and much more overlevelled, she barely tickles ennemies at any stage of the game in hard, that's not counting lunatic, seriously tht girl is similar to Kagero, but Kagero has a better class for glass canon work and a usable base strength + poison strike).

[joshcja]

On 10/23/2019 at 7:06 AM, DragonFlames said:

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I hate the Royals a lot.

*Screams in Saizo*

[DragonFlames]

5 hours ago, joshcja said:

*Screams in Saizo*

Saizo was the wannabe Ryu Hayabusa/Hanzo Hattori, wasn't he?
If I remember correctly, he was "the best" out of the three "natural" Ninjas in the game due to his high growths in most areas. Shame about his Speed, though.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Growth totals are an incredibly poor way to judge units.

I'd take Reina over Takumi, despite (a) the latter being a royal, and (b) the former having bad growth totals, because Reina joins at a high level in a strong class, with early access to skills like Replicate, decent weapon ranks, and growths which at least allow her to grow in the two most important stats.

The royals are overall good units, to be sure, but as mentioned plot-important characters often are, especially in recent games.

[Eden Agleam]

While the growth totals are all over the place, trying to judge unit balance in Birthright is kinda complaining about the temperature in a burning building. The units are kinda all over the place in quality, but it doesn't ultimately matter much in such an easy route like Birthright or the hot mess that is Revelation. 

Also, just comparing the growth disparities among the units is only looking at parts of the pictures. The units bases are just as important, as well as the system that they're in. Hana is not only bad cuz she's bad, but also bad cuz dodgetanking is harder to do in Fates. RInkah isn't great cuz you don't often need a tank in Birthright. 

[mangasdeouf]

On 11/8/2019 at 2:45 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Growth totals are an incredibly poor way to judge units.

I'd take Reina over Takumi, despite (a) the latter being a royal, and (b) the former having bad growth totals, because Reina joins at a high level in a strong class, with early access to skills like Replicate, decent weapon ranks, and growths which at least allow her to grow in the two most important stats.

The royals are overall good units, to be sure, but as mentioned plot-important characters often are, especially in recent games.

 

On 11/9/2019 at 1:50 PM, Shimmerfang said:

While the growth totals are all over the place, trying to judge unit balance in Birthright is kinda complaining about the temperature in a burning building. The units are kinda all over the place in quality, but it doesn't ultimately matter much in such an easy route like Birthright or the hot mess that is Revelation. 

Also, just comparing the growth disparities among the units is only looking at parts of the pictures. The units bases are just as important, as well as the system that they're in. Hana is not only bad cuz she's bad, but also bad cuz dodgetanking is harder to do in Fates. RInkah isn't great cuz you don't often need a tank in Birthright. 

Since your posts seem to complete each other, I'll go on with both at once. TL;DR at the end if you want to skip the detail.

Luck is a really awful stat since Awakening, but even worse in Fates. But what's even worse is not having luck, since you now need twice more luck than in pre-3DS games to get the same avoid and in Fates you need twice as much luck to get the same crit avoid (which is dumb as fck, might as well divide luck growth and cap by 2...) so if royals have all 5-10 more luck than other units by design, they are the only ones with decent crit avoid and a little innate boost to their avoid. Most non royals don't even have 10 base luck (5 crit dodge), and not all the promoted classes have secondary stats bonus (even less in crit avoid), actually less than half of the promoted classes (even only taking unmounted classes, most that have secondary stats bonuses are weapon locked). Add to that some absurd things like royal weapons (not all of them but some) having +10 crit avoid...just fire IS and replace them with competent designers (and writers please...the games' stories have rarely been as bland as in Fates although it had a good opportunity to have an interesting story, which tells even more how bad the scenarios are...).

So, royals are much less prone to being crit-killed than non royals. Now another thing that took a nerf mega hammer: skill. With 1.5 acc per skl point, you need 10 skl to get 15 acc (instead of 7 to get 14 or 8 to get 16, and 10 to get 20), that's a major nerf on everyone using inaccurate weapons. Guess what? Fates uses single RNG to calculate hit and crit. This means that your axe users (and yumi/lance/naginata/clubs) loose massive amounts of accuracy compared with older titles, this combined with single RNG roll...yes, this game heavily favors sword users (especially with 1-2 range katanas with +1 spd to get only -4 effective spd from your base and nobody being able to double with 1-2 weapons), shuriken/daggers and nohrian bows (even though most nohrian having access to bows have crap speed, strength or something else which makes them quite underwhelming) and, guess what? The royals heirs' weapons are...swords! Xander couldn't get a lance or he would have the WTA over Ryoma, but what about both having the most accurate and powerful weapon type with 1 range being able to hit at both ranges? It's just like giving Takumi Point Blank, but now give +10 to each of his offensive stats, to his HP and +4 def/res, and make it so his weapon is the one that makes him able to hit back at point blank without taking a skill slot, and making him 1 level under the required level for lv 25 skl.

Now we have: royals who have 4-5% more crit avoid than commoners alongside 4-5 hit rate, royal heirs having +damage skills and + crit on their 1-2 range weapon (Xander +10 dodge, Ryoma +10 avoid), royals with more skill base and/or growth than non royals (for most cases) or skilled commoners lacking either speed to double or bulk to not die in 1 hit, skill also helps activating most skills so most royals having more proc rate (even marginal) on proc skills than their counterparts, most of them have either good/awesome bases, good/awesome growths or OP weapons to make up for only half decent stats (that's Takumi, Leo is good bases and growths, Sakura is good to awesome growths since she even gets some def as a healer, Elise has awesome but specialized growths that make her a better Nyx, she only lacks sorcerer/dark knight to make them shine but gets tactician/malig as good promotions, Camilla has awesome base stats, at least for her join time, and natural access to passive offensive skills without proc rate luck involved, Hinoka has OP speed and decent everthing else but she really shines in her alternative class, because even without GBA cavalry/flying units rescue levels of utility since sky knight doesn't have shelter/canto, they still have total trash growths, even in speed they only have 15% as a speed specialized class only to get an excuse for darting blow to exist, because they couldn't revert spd difference = 4 to double like in anything not Awakening level of bad design, etc.).

For realism, I think Sacred Stones was more accurate: Eirika had good growths, but bad bases, so it would even out and only her promotion + Sieglinde made her really strong (+ no 1-2 range outside magical swords, eh...), which fits her character, Ephraim had good bases (too average but well, more often than not he was OP) and good growths (reason for his OPness even as a chapter 16 promotion unit), Innes was Seth-like (which fits his big brother archetype towards Tana but not his rivalry with Ephraim), Tana was an Est with decent bases but not very powerful at base, L'Arachel was an Est too (same as Tana but starting as a low level healer), Joshua wasn't really a royal but he had those bases and good HP all game long (it's more Marisa who needs love than Joshua being too good, especially when she's called something like thunder), and Lyon was possessed by the Demon King so his tanky mage state was OK (he would've loved a lighter weapon though...). None of them are straight up OP: some lack bases, some lack availability, some lack post-promotion stat caps (Ephraim you screwed up your stat caps...for real...), some are sword locked...and none has a personal 1-2 weapon without speed penalty with silver-like Mt and iron (bronze) -like acuracy. The real MVP in SS were Seth and Duessel, none of them being royals. Seth is a talented general who taught to the Renais cavaliers (the teacher remains unbeaten by his students, which is kinda sad), Duessel is a charismatic and fair general who taught Ephraim weapon arts so it's only logic that he's one of the best units if not the best in his category (and sadly Ephraim doesn't get any other weapon on promotion as a sign he has accomplished his training with Duessel).

Now if we compare, we can also point: Keaton is too strong compared with Kaden. Why? Why so much difference in treatment for 2 shapeshifters? Why does the fox hit much less hard than the dope wolf-grizzly thing and tank much less while having only spd and res over him? Why can Keaton double with his bulk and strength, why can't Kaden hit mages at 2 range? Why does Keaton get HP+5, gamble, sol, axebreaker, rally strength and axefaire, while Kaden gets mag +2, prediction, rally mag, tomefaire, rend heaven and quixotic? None of these skills fit Kaden's style, none, while Ketaon is OP in any of his classes for what he's used for. I feel like comparing Haar and Lethe with equal availability and no 1-2 axe for Haar. He still doubles many ennemies he doesn't OHKO, and his bulk makes him able to solo maps without magic groups. Kaden was supposed to have low strength, then why not use the Kitsune's magical power as a source of damage? He could do his job if he hit on the magic side and had 1-2 range.

Comparing shapeshifters with normal classes: 6 damage beaststone, 6 damage iron sword. So, with the basic stone drawback, you never get anything stronger than a base iron sword. Even worse: it's an iron sword lowering your bulk to boost your speed! if Keaton and Kaden were to be different in stats, then why not give each one his stone so they'd get different buffs/debuffs? Kaden has a decent base def, but the beaststone drawns it and his good HP stays unused, while Keaton can take the def penalty to be faster and his HP is completely OP! Even far worse: what does Kaden gain when promoting? spd and res. Everything else grows by...1. 1! Even archers get better promotion bonuses by going Kinshi which is well known for being a trash promotion stats wise and growths wise! Kitsune are only ninjas with never evolving iron swords, spd penalty 1 range bulk buff stone and garbage silver stone, all of that being 1 range locked and killing either his already average bulk mostly relying on HP as a consequence, or his speed which is his best tool to not be useless.

Shapeshifters got to another level of garbage compared with Laguz: they can always attack but the drawbacks of being shapeshifters apply even when they can attack, although they still lack 2 range counter options. On top of that, compared with Laguz...Their HP are like 15 points lower than RD laguz, their defensive stats are inferior to half transformed laguz, Keaton's speed barely surpasses Mordecai's transformed speed (especially considering 5 spd difference to double) and ennemies actually have speed in CQ/Rev, all that while not even being able to OHKO any kind of ennemy before like 5 level ups (which is promotion time for Keaton) and Kaden never OHKO anyone while Lethe had some time OHKOing mages before needing to 2HKO them, and she still had str x2 so every point of strength was 2 points of damage, 4 since she doubled every ennemy in the game without any difficulty.

Even though Keaton is good, he's still inferior to Tiger/wolf Laguz. Meanwhile Kaden is straight up inferior to every Laguz except Vika and Lyre. They don't get access to a skill like shout in RD which let tigers, wolves and such hit back ranged attackers and stun them. They don't get any proc skill, neither do they get enough skill to activate strong proc skills (and quixotic kills Kaden's avoid). I'd say, really, Panne is better than them. That's how bad they are, even Keaton. At least she has 100% HP growth, 50% def growth and no stat penalties at all with her stone (she even get +1 def with beaststone and +5 def +3 or 4 res with beaststone +) and her competition Nowi is so slow that she doesn't double much at all in hard mode (she only doubles knights, generals and potentially some other slowpokes if there are any) if you just use the main campaign and play normally to level her up (well, not normally but without pair up, which is normally for a Fire Emblem) and don't reclass her.

I think IS is just a company who likes abusing bias and only goes for sales since 3ds FE came in (in terms of FE games). But they've always been biased towards certain units (Gerik being Dieck with more everything, straight up annihilating any competition for the 1st hero crest in Eirika's route just with base stats, Pegasi being unable to ever become good fighters in most FE, excluding Gaiden, SOV and POR/RD where caps will destroy all hope for them to become great whatever you do, especially in RD where they're worse than F Dragon master, a clas that not only is stronger and tankier but also nearly as fast as falcons' t3, or mages having forever the worst base stats along with most archers, yes even Takumi and Setsuna's bases suck for their join time, Setsuna being under levelled, lower level than Hana who joins at the beginning of the previous chapter, and fighters/non mounted axe wielders, who generally can't hit a mountain if they're at it's foot, they'll just attack towards the opposite side, because we all know a lumberjack can hit everywhere on the tree and make it fall in 1 or 2 hits with his massive axe, instead of actually having to hit several times the same spot...oh wait! they have to be accurate, strong and have massive amounts of energy to cut only 1 tree? so why the f*** do these units lack everything but hp and strength in gameplay?! In wars axes are a common weapon because cheap and efficient, any villager has an axe to split wood for the winter, but in the game they can't even throw it towards an ennemy! They miss f***ing zombies! That walk 0.5 Km/hour!).

Sry for the long post, I had much to say.

TL;DR: royals have more skl/luck or at least lck than most units and most of them have personal weapons with bonuses, which means they have more: acc, 1-2 range damage, ability to double with 1-2 range physical weapons not called 3 MT shuriken, crit avoid, avoid, sometimes proc rate. Shapeshifters are worse than Laguz because they don't bring anything more than better armed units at any moment of the game, Kaden is a ninja without shuriken and with the shittiest weapons in the game and Keaton is an HP bag with Effie's base def 9 levels higher right before midgame, average speed at best at th cost of def, the weakest weapon type of all game and still no 1-2 range (or even 2 range) weapons for shapeshifters, nor ranged counterattacking skills like wolves/tigers/lions in RD (who could counterattack AND STUN ranged ennemies if I recall correctly). Their silver-like weapon's drawback is even worse than silver weapons, it straight up draws a 2 km² wide target on their forehead asking to be shot at with the massive bulk penalty.

IS has just found their cash cow with selling biased units with everything going for them as opposed to the common units who lack many things to be attractive (chara-design counted seeing how many royals are drawn with more charisma/attractiveness than commoners in Fates, Oboro and Mozu being the best example of 0 charisma in their portraits while Ryoma and Xander feel powerful from their looks, Ryoma having his personal armor and helm while other swordmasters have none and generics have traditional japanese samurai outfit, but...without the mask that makes them awesome, it's just lacking any form of charisma).

Thanks for reading, waiting for your answers.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

For realism, I think Sacred Stones was more accurate: Eirika had good growths, but bad bases, so it would even out and only her promotion + Sieglinde made her really strong (+ no 1-2 range outside magical swords, eh...), which fits her character, Ephraim had good bases (too average but well, more often than not he was OP) and good growths (reason for his OPness even as a chapter 16 promotion unit), Innes was Seth-like (which fits his big brother archetype towards Tana but not his rivalry with Ephraim), Tana was an Est with decent bases but not very powerful at base, L'Arachel was an Est too (same as Tana but starting as a low level healer), Joshua wasn't really a royal but he had those bases and good HP all game long (it's more Marisa who needs love than Joshua being too good, especially when she's called something like thunder), and Lyon was possessed by the Demon King so his tanky mage state was OK (he would've loved a lighter weapon though...). None of them are straight up OP: some lack bases, some lack availability, some lack post-promotion stat caps (Ephraim you screwed up your stat caps...for real...), some are sword locked...and none has a personal 1-2 weapon without speed penalty with silver-like Mt and iron (bronze) -like acuracy. The real MVP in SS were Seth and Duessel, none of them being royals. Seth is a talented general who taught to the Renais cavaliers (the teacher remains unbeaten by his students, which is kinda sad), Duessel is a charismatic and fair general who taught Ephraim weapon arts so it's only logic that he's one of the best units if not the best in his category (and sadly Ephraim doesn't get any other weapon on promotion as a sign he has accomplished his training with Duessel).

What does Eirika (or anything related to Sacred Stones, for that matter) have to do with this thread? Not that she's that good, because she isn't - she's sword locked (and iirc, Sacred Stones is lance heavy; someone else can correct me if I'm wrong), and her promotion and Sieglinde both come very late, by which point she's fallen behind.

4 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Shapeshifters got to another level of garbage compared with Laguz: they can always attack but the drawbacks of being shapeshifters apply even when they can attack, although they still lack 2 range counter options. On top of that, compared with Laguz...Their HP are like 15 points lower than RD laguz, their defensive stats are inferior to half transformed laguz, Keaton's speed barely surpasses Mordecai's transformed speed (especially considering 5 spd difference to double) and ennemies actually have speed in CQ/Rev, all that while not even being able to OHKO any kind of ennemy before like 5 level ups (which is promotion time for Keaton) and Kaden never OHKO anyone while Lethe had some time OHKOing mages before needing to 2HKO them, and she still had str x2 so every point of strength was 2 points of damage, 4 since she doubled every ennemy in the game without any difficulty.

Even though Keaton is good, he's still inferior to Tiger/wolf Laguz. Meanwhile Kaden is straight up inferior to every Laguz except Vika and Lyre. They don't get access to a skill like shout in RD which let tigers, wolves and such hit back ranged attackers and stun them. They don't get any proc skill, neither do they get enough skill to activate strong proc skills (and quixotic kills Kaden's avoid). I'd say, really, Panne is better than them. That's how bad they are, even Keaton. At least she has 100% HP growth, 50% def growth and no stat penalties at all with her stone (she even get +1 def with beaststone and +5 def +3 or 4 res with beaststone +) and her competition Nowi is so slow that she doesn't double much at all in hard mode (she only doubles knights, generals and potentially some other slowpokes if there are any) if you just use the main campaign and play normally to level her up (well, not normally but without pair up, which is normally for a Fire Emblem) and don't reclass her.

What do the laguz have to do with this topic? Second, they don't hold a candle to the shapeshifters in this game, because they needed to transform first, and they were rarely powerful enough to justify the wait. And that is saying nothing of them needing to worry about reverting into their slow, weak, and defenseless human forms mid-enemy phase, which just means they now have a "KICK ME" sign in giant neon letters on their back, in addition to reverting in the middle of enemy phase being a death sentence in Radiant Dawn. Long short short, royals aside, the only worthwhile laguz are Skrimir and the hawks, who are good enough to justify dealing with the disadvantages of being a laguz.

[Parrhesia]

6 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I think IS is just a company who likes abusing bias and only goes for sales since 3ds FE came in

ok boomer

son of a bitch that was gonna be my mic drop before the thread delete but i keep forgetting which section i'm a mod of

Edited November 28, 2019 by Parrhesia

[mangasdeouf]

18 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What does Eirika (or anything related to Sacred Stones, for that matter) have to do with this thread? Not that she's that good, because she isn't - she's sword locked (and iirc, Sacred Stones is lance heavy; someone else can correct me if I'm wrong), and her promotion and Sieglinde both come very late, by which point she's fallen behind.

What do the laguz have to do with this topic? Second, they don't hold a candle to the shapeshifters in this game, because they needed to transform first, and they were rarely powerful enough to justify the wait. And that is saying nothing of them needing to worry about reverting into their slow, weak, and defenseless human forms mid-enemy phase, which just means they now have a "KICK ME" sign in giant neon letters on their back, in addition to reverting in the middle of enemy phase being a death sentence in Radiant Dawn. Long short short, royals aside, the only worthwhile laguz are Skrimir and the hawks, who are good enough to justify dealing with the disadvantages of being a laguz.

I was comparing royal treatment in SS (which is the FE game I've played the most and finished several times both routes) and Fates to show that in other games royals are not OP (or not as much and still have more drawbacks, Ephraim is neither Ryoma nor Xander level of OP even though he's very good, and his late promotion delays his snowballing power by letting him at 5 mov until chapter 16). And Eirika AT BASE can wield Sieglinde for 25 damage, which is more than what any other non promoted non Gerik unit can say combat-wise, on top of being able to promote even if level 1 (her promo gains are no joke) to get a horse and become a decent rescue chain bot if that's all you want to use her for. Also, 30% def and res growths are good for GBA FE, her only bad point is bases, but her growths are good and in her route she has perfect availability, while on Ephraim's route she still has 2 thirds of the game to get out of her bases.

And Sieglinde's 16 Mt x3 + 5 str + 4 base str = 57 damage against monsters lv 1 unpromoted, she can OHKO one ennemy per turn and get to lv 15 in late chapters to get her promo without much effort since many flyers come at you in some chapters, and that's without even using the 2 refill staves you get for free to get back to 30 uses, she's Myrrh, only you trade impenetrable def/res and good strength to get insane speed/luck avoid/crit avoid and double anything not called hero or swordmaster in 10-15 lv ups, and promo gains make her nearly as tanky as Seth, all that only requires her to takes a few kills which she doesn't need anything more than what she's the only one to be able to use, and anyway she's forced for endgame, might as well replace this bias towards Joshua whose avoid is lower and who stays footlocked forever with making Eirika able to take one long range attack, and if she kills 1 ennemy per turn on PP that's 1 less ennemy to be aware of in EP for your frontliners.

Then Laguz come here for a comparison between shapeshifters treatment in other games, you can't say something is bad in this game without comparing it with what's been done in other games. Sorry to disappoint you, but Laguz (yes even non royals) are far better than Keaton and millions times better than Kaden. Why? Muarim at base can OHKO several ennemies in RD, I think he can even OHKO some ennemies in the 2-E, while taking about 0 physical damage in tiger form. His def is better than HAAR's, and you tell me Laguz are useless? Lethe can also ORKO several ennemies, and cats' class skill has the highest potential damage output in the whole game (aside maybe Aether in RD since it was busted? although the proc rate is way higher than Aether and cats have more skl than Ike), while cats have decent res and acceptable def alongside high HP and good avoid. With their base HP alone, in human form, with 0 def they could tank 2-3 hits in their join chapter (Lethe, Mordecai would take 3-4 hits), now count their def and they can tank 3-4 (Lethe 51 HP 9 def) and 7-8 (Mordecai 57 HP 16 def). I don't see how you can kill them except on purpose, they tank better than your cavalry units and if you transform them Morde can take as many hits as his trasnforation gauge can sustain + 7-8 hits, while Lethe will just dodge 70% of the attacks in cat form until she untransforms so she will take much less damage than your paladins.

NOW TO THE TOPIC: Kaden is so bad (I love him but beastsones are garbage and beastrune is not available for the time you get him until after you beat his cousins wolves, and he's still a 1 range locked ninja with a weapon that has the worst drawbacks in the game) he can barely hold his own, even some units I don't particularly like (Silas, Oboro, Saizo) are better than him at his job (tanking magic with guard naginata, killing mages with any weapon giving speed or with high Mt) while having better stat distribution and better overall growths. Kaden is a unit that's been completely thrown in just to say they made a shapeshifter. He could at least get a useful reclass, instead of diviner.

Keaton is better than Kaden, still his HP is only good because it's no HP Emblem, not because it's really good, his speed is not much better than tiger Mordecai while his attack and def are way lower alongside HP and luck. Keaton will take damage all game long except from iron shuriken ninjas, which doesn't happen much past chapter 9, and he's recruited several chapters later. With only a steel shuriken debuff, his def reaches 10, which means he'll die in 2 normal hits, and let's not talk about his res.

These two have bad/good bases/growths for the game standards, but they're not doing anything anyone else can't do, since Keaton is just Effie trading some def for some HP, and she could be a great knight with 7 move at this moment, OHKOing ennemies when she can't get debuffed+killed by the usual 3 attack stance formations in EP which let them hit you 9x or so with 6 units. Meanwhile, no one has 32 def at base in RD P2, neither does anyone have 57 HP alongside 32 def and 8 res, 18 spd/skl and 15 lck, and hit for 37 damage. Keaton, on the other side, hits lighter than all the units in his category (I think you could make Laslow or Peri better at ORKOing than Keaton when he joins, and they come with rather weird base stats in a chapter that doesn't forgive any mistake), and the nature of beast stones ensures Keaton will never be better thn them.

On top of that, he comes with 5 move, while Laguz have 7 move (6 for the equivalent in portable FE) and 9 (8 for portable FE) transformed, which is like a promoted unit/a mounted unit, and if I recall correctly, Laguz don't suffer movement penalty indoors like mounted units do, requires veification. They can also climb while mounted units have to take the path, and they can shove mounts and Moredcai can even smite for 2 tiles movement, which makes you able to move a mount by 11 tiles instead of 9 (hey transporter, how's it going?), and tiger except Kiza max their strength and def at 46/44, 23/22 untransformed, which is 1 point lower than paladins' cap in human form and better than general in tiger form (by 7 points BTW). Comparing physical damage in RD and Fates, it's like tigers have 60% more def than Wolfssegners, and in human form they have 20% less. Capped speed tigers only get doubled by BK, if you want to know.

That's how shapeshifters are treated in Fates: they can transform all the time, but even though Keaton has a good stat spread, he's still nothing special, he can't use 1-2 range or even 2 range weapons, and he has unpromoted movement and requires a master seal to promote to only get romoted foot units' movement. Keaton is just Effie worse, and requires a second seal to get into a decent class (unless you use him as a stat stick, which is the only unique part of him since he offers 3-3 str/spd before promo if I recall well and 4-4 after promo). Unlike Mozu, he comes with usable bases, but unlike Mozu, he can't use bows and doesn't get access to a good class no one else has access to in Nohr (Laslow ninja which no Nohrian has access to except him, Kaze being a Hoshidan, Mozu archer, Selena sky knight, even Camilla and Beruka can pass down sky knight to Sidekick if they're his mother, Keaton is just the 4th guy you can make a fighter, and he's the second who needs a second seal to do so). Keaton is a random unit who can take a hit, his growths are too spread for his actual uses and his class is useless outside a faster backpack than berserker, and that's only trading 1 spd with 1 str. Kaden is Kaze without 1-2 range but with better damage...except Kaze has access to forges and his weapon has no drawback to give 2 speed and have 1-2 range.

TL;DR: I'm not out of topic, I explained why I made these comparisons, because while people say Keaton is great, they don't even consider his efficiency cost (which no one forgets to complain about with Mozu although she has better availability, better potential and a niche no one else can compete with in CQ with instant archer reclass) and his move is absolutely not going for him since he's just a t1 foot soldier with hero's stat spread. I also wrote about growths for both him and Kaden (Kaze with 1 range and no forges, on top of no utility). And shapeshifters took a heavy hit in this game, because they are not doing anything unique and have absolutely no niche no one else can compete with, which is a problem of game balance, which is part of the topic. Meanwhile in Tellius games, Laguz were a unique type of Oifei that was never done before in FE and their mechanics were not shared with anyone else, bringing some new things to the gameplay. Wolfssegners and Ninetails bring nothing to the gameplay and don't have any unique utility since anyone can get renewal with My Castle and anyone can also use poison strike so wolfssegners and ninetails' skills are not even unique (aside of healing being every 2 turns, and 20% less HP recovery over 2 turns than renewal). Give Silas renewal, take his einherjar, create a new game, buy renewal from einherjar, use a beastkiller: Silas is now better than Keaton, and if Silas get poison strike too (Kaze friendship seal), he does Keaton's job 10 chapters (or even 12 since Keaton must reach 20/5 or 15/5 to get one of his promoted skills) earlier than Keaton.

That's IS's way of designing units, they favor quantity over quality and throw some furry fanservice without making them worth using in any way. I clearly explained why Fates had a poor way to balance units (growths and stats/skills) and shapeshifters are the most affected by this poor balance and fanservice without any reason, they don't serve the plot in any way even though Rev tried to give them a reason to join the party, they don't serve the gameplay in anyway since they are worse than their normal classes counterparts in one way or another, they're just there to be there. It's sad because I like them but FE 10 Laguz only run (with Ike and a few filler units to be able to finish the missions) is more efficient than FE 14 Shapeshifters run (even Manakete is poorly executed, although still better than beasts, no reason to not be able to counterattack at 2 range, and for once that Manaketes don't spit fire but use horn attacks, they use their magic stat to deal damage in a mostly physical oriented class with a bonus to strength on yato but no bonus to magic, and in nohr noble they can lower ennemy stats but can't counterattack at range with dragonstone, which is quite deceiving and underwhelming on top of being illogical, how can one weaken ennemies without doing anything to them?).

[Integrity]

holy crap uh please go outside and like go to a bar and watch some sports or something

 

[Shadow Mir]

11 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I was comparing royal treatment in SS (which is the FE game I've played the most and finished several times both routes) and Fates to show that in other games royals are not OP (or not as much and still have more drawbacks, Ephraim is neither Ryoma nor Xander level of OP even though he's very good, and his late promotion delays his snowballing power by letting him at 5 mov until chapter 16). And Eirika AT BASE can wield Sieglinde for 25 damage, which is more than what any other non promoted non Gerik unit can say combat-wise, on top of being able to promote even if level 1 (her promo gains are no joke) to get a horse and become a decent rescue chain bot if that's all you want to use her for. Also, 30% def and res growths are good for GBA FE, her only bad point is bases, but her growths are good and in her route she has perfect availability, while on Ephraim's route she still has 2 thirds of the game to get out of her bases.

And Sieglinde's 16 Mt x3 + 5 str + 4 base str = 57 damage against monsters lv 1 unpromoted, she can OHKO one ennemy per turn and get to lv 15 in late chapters to get her promo without much effort since many flyers come at you in some chapters, and that's without even using the 2 refill staves you get for free to get back to 30 uses, she's Myrrh, only you trade impenetrable def/res and good strength to get insane speed/luck avoid/crit avoid and double anything not called hero or swordmaster in 10-15 lv ups, and promo gains make her nearly as tanky as Seth, all that only requires her to takes a few kills which she doesn't need anything more than what she's the only one to be able to use, and anyway she's forced for endgame, might as well replace this bias towards Joshua whose avoid is lower and who stays footlocked forever with making Eirika able to take one long range attack, and if she kills 1 ennemy per turn on PP that's 1 less ennemy to be aware of in EP for your frontliners.

Then Laguz come here for a comparison between shapeshifters treatment in other games, you can't say something is bad in this game without comparing it with what's been done in other games. Sorry to disappoint you, but Laguz (yes even non royals) are far better than Keaton and millions times better than Kaden. Why? Muarim at base can OHKO several ennemies in RD, I think he can even OHKO some ennemies in the 2-E, while taking about 0 physical damage in tiger form. His def is better than HAAR's, and you tell me Laguz are useless? Lethe can also ORKO several ennemies, and cats' class skill has the highest potential damage output in the whole game (aside maybe Aether in RD since it was busted? although the proc rate is way higher than Aether and cats have more skl than Ike), while cats have decent res and acceptable def alongside high HP and good avoid. With their base HP alone, in human form, with 0 def they could tank 2-3 hits in their join chapter (Lethe, Mordecai would take 3-4 hits), now count their def and they can tank 3-4 (Lethe 51 HP 9 def) and 7-8 (Mordecai 57 HP 16 def). I don't see how you can kill them except on purpose, they tank better than your cavalry units and if you transform them Morde can take as many hits as his trasnforation gauge can sustain + 7-8 hits, while Lethe will just dodge 70% of the attacks in cat form until she untransforms so she will take much less damage than your paladins.

NOW TO THE TOPIC: Kaden is so bad (I love him but beastsones are garbage and beastrune is not available for the time you get him until after you beat his cousins wolves, and he's still a 1 range locked ninja with a weapon that has the worst drawbacks in the game) he can barely hold his own, even some units I don't particularly like (Silas, Oboro, Saizo) are better than him at his job (tanking magic with guard naginata, killing mages with any weapon giving speed or with high Mt) while having better stat distribution and better overall growths. Kaden is a unit that's been completely thrown in just to say they made a shapeshifter. He could at least get a useful reclass, instead of diviner.

Keaton is better than Kaden, still his HP is only good because it's no HP Emblem, not because it's really good, his speed is not much better than tiger Mordecai while his attack and def are way lower alongside HP and luck. Keaton will take damage all game long except from iron shuriken ninjas, which doesn't happen much past chapter 9, and he's recruited several chapters later. With only a steel shuriken debuff, his def reaches 10, which means he'll die in 2 normal hits, and let's not talk about his res.

These two have bad/good bases/growths for the game standards, but they're not doing anything anyone else can't do, since Keaton is just Effie trading some def for some HP, and she could be a great knight with 7 move at this moment, OHKOing ennemies when she can't get debuffed+killed by the usual 3 attack stance formations in EP which let them hit you 9x or so with 6 units. Meanwhile, no one has 32 def at base in RD P2, neither does anyone have 57 HP alongside 32 def and 8 res, 18 spd/skl and 15 lck, and hit for 37 damage. Keaton, on the other side, hits lighter than all the units in his category (I think you could make Laslow or Peri better at ORKOing than Keaton when he joins, and they come with rather weird base stats in a chapter that doesn't forgive any mistake), and the nature of beast stones ensures Keaton will never be better thn them.

On top of that, he comes with 5 move, while Laguz have 7 move (6 for the equivalent in portable FE) and 9 (8 for portable FE) transformed, which is like a promoted unit/a mounted unit, and if I recall correctly, Laguz don't suffer movement penalty indoors like mounted units do, requires veification. They can also climb while mounted units have to take the path, and they can shove mounts and Moredcai can even smite for 2 tiles movement, which makes you able to move a mount by 11 tiles instead of 9 (hey transporter, how's it going?), and tiger except Kiza max their strength and def at 46/44, 23/22 untransformed, which is 1 point lower than paladins' cap in human form and better than general in tiger form (by 7 points BTW). Comparing physical damage in RD and Fates, it's like tigers have 60% more def than Wolfssegners, and in human form they have 20% less. Capped speed tigers only get doubled by BK, if you want to know.

That's how shapeshifters are treated in Fates: they can transform all the time, but even though Keaton has a good stat spread, he's still nothing special, he can't use 1-2 range or even 2 range weapons, and he has unpromoted movement and requires a master seal to promote to only get romoted foot units' movement. Keaton is just Effie worse, and requires a second seal to get into a decent class (unless you use him as a stat stick, which is the only unique part of him since he offers 3-3 str/spd before promo if I recall well and 4-4 after promo). Unlike Mozu, he comes with usable bases, but unlike Mozu, he can't use bows and doesn't get access to a good class no one else has access to in Nohr (Laslow ninja which no Nohrian has access to except him, Kaze being a Hoshidan, Mozu archer, Selena sky knight, even Camilla and Beruka can pass down sky knight to Sidekick if they're his mother, Keaton is just the 4th guy you can make a fighter, and he's the second who needs a second seal to do so). Keaton is a random unit who can take a hit, his growths are too spread for his actual uses and his class is useless outside a faster backpack than berserker, and that's only trading 1 spd with 1 str. Kaden is Kaze without 1-2 range but with better damage...except Kaze has access to forges and his weapon has no drawback to give 2 speed and have 1-2 range.

TL;DR: I'm not out of topic, I explained why I made these comparisons, because while people say Keaton is great, they don't even consider his efficiency cost (which no one forgets to complain about with Mozu although she has better availability, better potential and a niche no one else can compete with in CQ with instant archer reclass) and his move is absolutely not going for him since he's just a t1 foot soldier with hero's stat spread. I also wrote about growths for both him and Kaden (Kaze with 1 range and no forges, on top of no utility). And shapeshifters took a heavy hit in this game, because they are not doing anything unique and have absolutely no niche no one else can compete with, which is a problem of game balance, which is part of the topic. Meanwhile in Tellius games, Laguz were a unique type of Oifei that was never done before in FE and their mechanics were not shared with anyone else, bringing some new things to the gameplay. Wolfssegners and Ninetails bring nothing to the gameplay and don't have any unique utility since anyone can get renewal with My Castle and anyone can also use poison strike so wolfssegners and ninetails' skills are not even unique (aside of healing being every 2 turns, and 20% less HP recovery over 2 turns than renewal). Give Silas renewal, take his einherjar, create a new game, buy renewal from einherjar, use a beastkiller: Silas is now better than Keaton, and if Silas get poison strike too (Kaze friendship seal), he does Keaton's job 10 chapters (or even 12 since Keaton must reach 20/5 or 15/5 to get one of his promoted skills) earlier than Keaton.

That's IS's way of designing units, they favor quantity over quality and throw some furry fanservice without making them worth using in any way. I clearly explained why Fates had a poor way to balance units (growths and stats/skills) and shapeshifters are the most affected by this poor balance and fanservice without any reason, they don't serve the plot in any way even though Rev tried to give them a reason to join the party, they don't serve the gameplay in anyway since they are worse than their normal classes counterparts in one way or another, they're just there to be there. It's sad because I like them but FE 10 Laguz only run (with Ike and a few filler units to be able to finish the missions) is more efficient than FE 14 Shapeshifters run (even Manakete is poorly executed, although still better than beasts, no reason to not be able to counterattack at 2 range, and for once that Manaketes don't spit fire but use horn attacks, they use their magic stat to deal damage in a mostly physical oriented class with a bonus to strength on yato but no bonus to magic, and in nohr noble they can lower ennemy stats but can't counterattack at range with dragonstone, which is quite deceiving and underwhelming on top of being illogical, how can one weaken ennemies without doing anything to them?).

Seems the fact that this thread almost got locked/deleted didn't even so much as faze you one bit. If I were you, I'd probably just call it quits, considering this got the attention of not just a mod, but an admin.

EDIT: RE: Eirika: Like I said, she's locked to swords, with all the problems that entails (range-locked, easy prey for archers and the like, often has to deal with WTD, poor enemy phase performance). Also, if she's at base level by the time Sieglinde is relevant, she should not be fighting, because she's a liability at that point. And like I said, her promotion comes too late to do much good. By the way, Sieglinde only gets doubled might against monsters, as do the other Sacred Twin weapons except Gleipnir. In addition "promo gains making her nearly as tanky as Seth" isn't nearly as impressive as you're trying to make it sound when it's only for the last quarter of the game. Just ask Syrene.

RE: Laguz: Seems you're willing to downplay or even outright ignore the fact that laguz need to transform first before they can do anything, and the fact that far more often than not, they're not good enough relative to beorc units to justify the wait. Like Ranulf, for example. He has 28 strength transformed... but is stuck with an 8 might weapon, resulting in 36 attack, which most beorcs you have at that point can get close to, if not surpass with the right weapons. Considering that I have to wait three full turns (which I say is three turns too many, considering that the enemy often sends units at you immediately once a map begins) for him to go online, that's unimpressive. Making matters worse is the fact that he's a cat, which is one of the worst classes in the game, all because they're quick to revert compared to other laguz. And the final nail in his coffin? Those same beorc don't have to worry about reverting into powerless punching bags that essentially scream "free kill" in the middle of enemy phase. And this is supposed to be one of the beter laguz units. I don't even want to think about how bad off the worse ones are compared to beorc... As to Mordecai, if he's taking that many attacks, odds are some mages are among those attacking him, at which point he's toast with butter, especially if he reverts beforehand, in which case he's fried over easy several times over. And while his 32 defense transformed is great, there's still the matter of him reverting, at which point his durability goes way down because not only does that get halved, he's now getting doubled by everything. Lethe is far, far worse - she's a cat, which, like I said, sucks majorly because they revert too fast, and worse yet, even when transformed, she can't take it or dish it out. Cats' mastery skill being good means nothing when two of them are among the worst units in the game and the last still isn't that good because cat is a godawful class to begin with. Praising cats' mastery skill is like diving headlong into a giant pile of manure for a candy bar. And through all this, I didn't even mention the biggest problem laguz have - until now, that is... they're range locked. While most shapeshifters have that problem, laguz have it worse because if they're attacked while transformed, they get that much closer to reverting into their powerless and vulnerable human state. Long story short, I fail to see how you can pretend laguz were better than Fates' shapeshifters when they had too many disadvantages to be worth it. Being a unique concept is no excuse for being a bad one.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Integrity]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

considering this got the attention of not just a mod, but an admin.

we're all on discord these things are related

 

EDIT: parrhesia actually asked me to lock it since he forgot he's not a mod in this subforum but i weighed my options and decided that taking a petty snipe and then locking the thread would be massively uncool

Edited November 30, 2019 by Integrity