Teleporting as a plot device?

[Tediz64]

So as I was taking a break from the game to eat, I had a random thought. Why is it that bad guys or the evil villains know how to teleport but good guys don't or can't? In addition, if magic is magic and how you use it is up to your own judgement (kinda like in the real world how guns are. They can be used for bad or for self defense) why aren't certain magic spells banned or even more emphasized as broken?

So let's go over some examples so we can see how absurd it is. 

Fire Emblem Blazing Sword. In this game we see Nergal able to use the broken magic to get away despite several times being surrounded or being put in bad situations that would have other wise ended the game prematurely. This is one of those few times I see good guys use it as Aothis the old sage teleports us out of the desert. 

Fire Emblem Sacred Stones. The only reason Lyon lasts so long in this war is cause of that broken ability. Several times was he pinned in by both Eirika and Ephraim but managed to escape cause he could teleport. The one scene I remember most was near the crater when he was pleading to Eirika to kill him while he still had control after the merge near chapter 16.

Fire Emblem Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn. In PoR, the Black Knight only managed to make it so long in the war thanks to that teleporting powder when he would have possibly been routed after fighting the Lion King shortly after slaying Ike's dad. Again to escape from Nados castle when it crumbled. Lekain from RD managed to black mail the prince after using the staff and I other plot skits, he always escapes using it. 

Im unaware if Awakening, Fates, or Echoes using the broken magic since I don't recall those games very well. I don't think anyone did. Oh wait, that guy who hates Corrine and serves Garon. Forgot his name. 

Now let's look at this 3 Houses. The only reason the Flame emperor managed to escape after getting pinned in on chapter 11 was cause they could teleport. Thales saved that one Kronya girl using it as well. Like I'm pretty sure this game would have ended a whole lot sooner if they couldn't teleport. 

Edit Addition : Forgot to add, need I mentioned how many times the Death Knight escapes cause of that broken magic? Like more than 5 times. 

So now that I've listed all that, let me point out my two questions. So we know teleporting is usable since we've seen in the series our own characters get either warp or rescue spells (in the past, it was staffs/staves). Why couldn't someone just use the rescue spell/staff to recall the villain so we could surround them and kill them? I mean when you cast magic, I'd have to assume it isn't locked on people since you can use it on anybody so why is magic (aside from it being a game device) not more broken? I mean if you could use fire ball to hit someone or to light a camp fire and the spell in itself isn't restricted to how you use it, why isn't it explained in the game that you can't use it on your enemies. I would think a caster could use the magic based off their own creativity or imagination. I'd go on, but I think you get my point right?

My 2nd question is, how do y'all feel about that magic as a plot device? At this point, now that I've pondered it, I think it's pretty cheap. Plus pretty lazy as game developers and story tellers use this mechanics so often but never go out of their way to explain how come our own good guys never get it. I mean imagine Ephraim escaping back with Kyle and Forde back when they hit the castle. Or when Ike was carrying Leanne in Serenes Forest. I mean, we have magic on our side. So why isn't it ever mentioned? I noticed how no game ever actually directly talks about it as well!!! Like no one ever says "damn, he teleported away. Next time we have to make sure to deploy magic dampeners to prevent him from escaping". It's always the generic "he got away" but they didn't put an emphasis on HOW. Like as I'm typing this, I'm just now coming to the realization that for over 20 years I've been playing various games that use such a cheap and lazy device to justify their stories. I demand to use rescue spell on my enemy commanders so i can pummel them to death. Or at least have a back up priest with the rescue spell so our protagonist can never ever again be surrounded. 

Did anyone ever else ever think of this plot mechanic and how absurd it is? Like those are some weird rules on how it works. 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Tediz64
Left out something. Added paragraph in middlel

[Humanoid]

I rage against it all the time. Ideally teleportation magic simply shouldn't exist in order to prevent the plot holes in the first place, and if the villain needs to tell you something, then let them send a messenger or something, who you may or may not kill at your leisure for catharsis. Cutscene incompetence is possibly my biggest pet peeve in videogame writing altogether.

I'm also a strong believer in one fight to the death. If you fight a boss and defeat them, they're dead. If the writers don't want us to kill them, either have us not face them, or have them present but be sufficiently powerful as to not be normally defeatable. If the player wants to grind infinite XP to kill Garon at the Opera House early in the game, let them do so and have it be a victory condition to end the game - nothing wrong with that. Increase the Death Knight's power when you first meet him, fine, but if we do kill him there he should be out of the game, permanently.

I am hugely glad for Obsidian's take on this in their recent games. The Outer Worlds released today with the promise that you can kill any NPC in the game and still have the game be completable. In another non-standard game over, I loved that

in Deadfire, you could outright refuse to be resurrected by the Gods and just accept the afterlife, ending the game in the prologue.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Humanoid

[Mukmuk]

Because teleportation is convenient to the plot. It also represents some potential fallacies in the story, if the devs have to use teleportation to further a plot. It's also annoying and stupid, at least most of the time.

A little off topic, but I hate it in Fog of War, the enemies move around normally and can see you perfectly. I guess this may have a little bit to do with teleportation??? Idk. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Interesting questions. And I will field them right after-look over there! *Teleports away*

It does seem like the ultimate absurdity that chapter 11 is literally a "look over there!" brand of getaway.

Look I know warp magic gets a bad rap for being lazy, but look at all the good it did for our heroes! Marth would have been stuck like a pig if his sis didn't warp him to safety. I guess the reason they never put this ability in the hands of the protagonist is that Fire Emblem is a game about armies rather than a lone hero. Warping out of a tight spot would be a fair tactical choice for any military commander, but then all your troops would be captured or killed by the enemy. Maybe that'd serve as a nice reset in the narrative. Like, it's chapter 13, our blue haired lord has to abandon his troops in an impossible situation. Then BAM promotion to Great Lord, and then you start your counterattack, picking up old, captured units along the way.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Glennstavos

[Humanoid]

20 minutes ago, Mukmuk said:

A little off topic, but I hate it in Fog of War, the enemies move around normally and can see you perfectly. I guess this may have a little bit to do with teleportation??? Idk. 

Nah, that's just lazy programming. It's a lot harder to program an AI to react to imperfect information so many developers don't even bother. When you have perfect information, it's easy to code the AI to behave in a predictable way that functions 100% of the time. With a fog of war, you either have to make the AI be able to "guess" or have them basically fall into decision paralysis since they'd have nothing to react to. This happens even with games with supposedly far more strategic depth than the FE series, which has always featured relatively perfunctory AI.

[Arachnofiend]

They should replace it with illusion magic. Imagine if every time Nergal was going to teleport away, instead you get the chance to attack him and it turns out it was just an image.

...Wait that's even more infuriating

[Tediz64]

24 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Nah, that's just lazy programming. It's a lot harder to program an AI to react to imperfect information so many developers don't even bother. When you have perfect information, it's easy to code the AI to behave in a predictable way that functions 100% of the time. With a fog of war, you either have to make the AI be able to "guess" or have them basically fall into decision paralysis since they'd have nothing to react to. This happens even with games with supposedly far more strategic depth than the FE series, which has always featured relatively perfunctory AI.

I had once pondered the unfairness of FoW maps back when I was playing Radiant Dawn. I thought, this is some bull. But when you phrase it like that and how it's be almost impossible to program an AI to "guess" or "act confused" then I guess I can't blame the Devs. 

You know, that is a really good idea for a chapter! @Glennstavos We should have a map where we have to rescue allies. Kinda like Radiant Dawn when we were breaking the Daein soldiers out of prison so they could join us. We also did that back during the prologue to save Gordin. He got a bow right away to help is fight on the same map. But we should make a plot or chapter out of it in a future FE.

[Humanoid]

4 minutes ago, Tediz64 said:

how it's be almost impossible to program an AI to "guess" or "act confused" then I guess I can't blame the Devs. 

Don't get me wrong, it is entirely possible to program an AI that behaves believably with imperfect information, and the best strategy games often put in that effort. However it is significantly more effort - I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least an order of magnitude in difference when considering FE's trivial AI. Given that in a typical FE game, a Fog of War map might appear just a couple of times, I can see why they wouldn't bother.

[Fire Flower]

Honestly a good way to make fogs of war maps fairer for the players is just have enemies unable to target players unless they got within 2 squares of them, so the same restrictions as the player apply. As is, players aren't able to target enemies in fog of war, so why should the converse not hold true?

[Punished Dayni]

3 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Im unaware if Awakening, Fates, or Echoes using the broken magic since I don't recall those games very well. I don't think anyone did. Oh wait, that guy who hates Corrine and serves Garon. Forgot his name. 

I'm pretty certain the answer to all three's yes. Validar (I think), Zola and Blue Cheddah all use it.

Also in RD Lekain used Rewarp, which is in game (Also Thracia and as a personal skill/spell in Fates/SoV). I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

I kind of got more annoyed over time. It absolutely hurts what could have been a better villain in Manfroy and it does need a huge reconsideration. But it's a plot contrivance that I'm not sure how IS would square.

[Elephantus]

5 hours ago, Fire Flower said:

Honestly a good way to make fogs of war maps fairer for the players is just have enemies unable to target players unless they got within 2 squares of them, so the same restrictions as the player apply. As is, players aren't able to target enemies in fog of war, so why should the converse not hold true?

Doesn't that defeat the point of a Fog of War map in the first place, though? Talking from a gameplay perspective here.

[NinjaMonkey]

8 hours ago, Tediz64 said:

Lekain from RD managed to black mail the prince after using the staff and I other plot skits, he always escapes using it. 

I know that this is in game, rather than a cutscene, but Izuka also uses it in 4-5 if you get close to him.

Edited October 25, 2019 by NinjaMonkey

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Keep in mind, at least most of those situations could have been rewritten to have the antagonist run away the old-fashioned way (have them jump on a horse/wyvern if necessary).  

 

I think the broader question is the use of “I must retreat” as a plot mechanic.  On one hand, it helps build up a boss if you have to fight them multiple times, and it feels good to try and devise a way to kill an early-appearing boss, like Garon at the opera house or the Death Knight at the holy tomb.  On the other hand, it somewhat cheapens these encounters and somewhat begs the question of why they don’t just retreat the same way when you finally kill them.  

[Flere210]

Thhegood guys usually can teleport too. It's gameplay and story segregation that a priest can't heal or warp themselves. If it's rare enought a warp staff won't break the game.

The good guys don't use it because they have usually only that one army, while the bad guy has many smaller armies. You need like 20 warp staves to teleport your whole army, and even if it's a wincondition againist pretty much any fortress, gatheringbthe 20 staves is going to be as hard as sieging the castle the old fashoned way.

That said magic warfare in D&D and thing like that is something i adore, so obviously i am ok with things far worse than warp staves.

[vanguard333]

When used well, it can be beneficial. When used poorly, it is rather lazy. 

For an example done fairly well, Path of Radiance:

The Black Knight being the only person with warp powder can be given leeway as the Black Knight is a mysterious character by design. Who is this guy? Where did he get blessed armour and two blessed swords? Where did he get this "warp powder" that is unknown tech to the Kingdom of Daein? How is this guy Greil's former student? All questions that are intentionally raised, and all of them questions that would have answers. Plus, the fact that no one else knows anything about this warp powder establishes a clear rule that only the Black Knight can do this; if someone else does this (which no one else does), then that means there's a connection to the Black Knight. 

It is also used in ways that a messenger or a horse/pegasus/wyvern can't be used for similar effect; not just fleeing King Caineghis, but also reporting to Ashnard right away and kidnapping Leanne. 

Perhaps most importantly, it also has a clear cost that means he can't just spam-teleport everywhere whenever he wants: it drains some of his strength whenever he uses it. This means that he'll only use it for scenarios where there's no other option, and there's a good reason why. 

By contrast, Radiant Dawn:

The Begnion Senate having the new "rewarp staff" that allow the wielder and only the wielder to teleport wherever they want... I guess reaffirms that the Black Knight's warp powder is unique? But that didn't need reaffirming. It's also never explained why they reserve this staff for the senate and don't give any to their best soldiers for important tasks; the fact that it's brand new and limited in number is all the more reason to give it to the best soldiers for hit-and-flee or infiltration missions. But then again, no one ever accused the Begnion Senate of intelligence. 

Furthermore, in every scenario except two, it only gets used to explain stuff that could've happened through different means: Lekain arriving at the Daein Capital; he could just arrive at the Daein Capital. Lekain fleeing the desert and leaving Numida to die? He doesn't need teleportation to do that. Only walking up to Sanaki and revealing the truth about her heritage, and teleporting between the four map corners in his boss fight actually use the teleportation for anything unique. 

Also, unlike the warp powder, it comes at no cost or limitation, so the senate can spam it all they want (just like the Blood Pacts...).

[Etrurian emperor]

It is rather lazy but its also so convenient for the writers its a little hard to blame them for relying on it. 

Its very handy. It allows the villains to appear at the scene for some screentime and it gives an excuse how they got away. Its not good writing but it saves the writers a lot of work. In some cases it probably works out for the best. As a villain Lyon is reliant on his personal bond with the twins so he occasionally needs to go and chat with them. If he has no escape method this would lead to a fight. The twins repeatedly defeating Lyon would make him kind of a loser and Lyon successfully running away from them might turn the twins into losers who repeatedly let the main villain outrun them. 

I suppose Iago....Iago! might actually be the one who handled his teleporting the best because he's not teleporting at all. Its an illusion of him that does the talking. That could provide the villains some screentime with the heroes without bringing up awkward questions like why the villain doesn't just kill everyone. 

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

The Begnion Senate having the new "rewarp staff" that allow the wielder and only the wielder to teleport wherever they want... I guess reaffirms that the Black Knight's warp powder is unique? But that didn't need reaffirming. It's also never explained why they reserve this staff for the senate and don't give any to their best soldiers for important tasks; the fact that it's brand new and limited in number is all the more reason to give it to the best soldiers for hit-and-flee or infiltration missions. But then again, no one ever accused the Begnion Senate of intelligence. 

 

Why would the Senators give something that can help them flee to their soldiers instead when they have limited number? Also, it is impossible to do hit and run missions if you use teleportation as it leaves you vulnerable unlike in the other FE games. For example, the rewarp staff uses up a turn, so if Izuka or Lekain uses it, they can't attack which is why they use it to flee in the battlefield as sneak attacks aren't possible. They also can't counter attack after warping because in RD, if you have a staff equipped, you can't use magic in retaliation. Unless you want to argue bonking people with staves is an effective method of attack after warping to an enemy base. Then there is the fact that the laguz have great senses so they could smell or hear the warping enemy before they can prepare an ambush considering there is some lag time and noise created by the warp staff. 

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 Furthermore, in every scenario except two, it only gets used to explain stuff that could've happened through different means: Lekain arriving at the Daein Capital; he could just arrive at the Daein Capital. Lekain fleeing the desert and leaving Numida to die? He doesn't need teleportation to do that. Only walking up to Sanaki and revealing the truth about her heritage, and teleporting between the four map corners in his boss fight actually use the teleportation for anything unique. 

 Also, unlike the warp powder, it comes at no cost or limitation, so the senate can spam it all they want (just like the Blood Pacts...).

•  

In gameplay, we see teleportation used to great effect such as in the fight with Izuka or Lekain unlike in most FE games where it is just used as a convenient excuse for plot reasons including PoR. 

It has limited uses unlike enemy warp ability in other FE games so no the senate can't spam them all they want especially when there are only two in the entire game. One with Lekain and one with Izuka. Not even Numida and Valtome have them despite it being IC for those two to have. 

RD is by far the best at integrating gameplay and story with warp staves.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Icelerate

[vanguard333]

27 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Why would the Senators give something that can help them flee to their soldiers instead when they have limited number? Also, it is impossible to do hit and run missions if you use teleportation as it leaves you vulnerable unlike in the other FE games. For example, the rewarp staff uses up a turn, so if Izuka or Lekain uses it, they can't attack which is why they use it to flee in the battlefield as sneak attacks aren't possible. They also can't counter attack after warping because in RD, if you have a staff equipped, you can't use magic in retaliation. Unless you want to argue bonking people with staves is an effective method of attack after warping to an enemy base. Then there is the fact that the laguz have great senses so they could smell or hear the warping enemy before they can prepare an ambush considering there is some lag time and noise created by the warp staff. 

That's a gameplay mechanic; Lekain seemed perfectly capable of immediately doing all kinds of stuff after teleporting whenever the plot needed him to do so. Personally, I prefer when gameplay and story are well-integrated. 

The Senate never had any intention of personally fighting anyone until part 4. They were happy to sit in the Begnion Capital with only Valtome going anywhere near a battlefield (and even then staying out of the conflict and just barking orders). So those staffs are just going to spend their time not doing anything. 

 

33 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

In gameplay, we see teleportation used to great effect such as in the fight with Izuka or Lekain unlike in most FE games where it is just used as a convenient excuse for plot reasons including PoR. 

It has limited uses unlike enemy warp ability in other FE games so no the senate can't spam them all they want especially when there are only two in the entire game. One with Lekain and one with Izuka. Not even Numida and Valtome have them despite it being IC for those two to have. 

RD is by far the best at integrating gameplay and story with warp staves.

I had forgotten that Izuka had a rewarp staff. Though it reaffirms my point: they never make it clear how many there are; if it's just two, then why give it to Izuka, and not someone who can make more use out of it if you're going to give it to someone else anyway? I could understand the senators hoarding the tech for themselves if there were so few of them to go around, but them giving one to Izuka shows that they are willing to give them to others; why not give it to someone who can do more with it?

I find it funny that you say it's the best at integrating them when I just said earlier that it's not well-integrated at all. Sure; it's used in the gameplay and not just the story, and I do like that, but its use in gameplay and its use in story contradict one-another. You are correct in everything you pointed out in the gameplay, but the story contradicts it: in the story, they can use it freely whenever they want and it doesn't run out of uses or make them have to pause for a bit before they can do anything. 

Don't get me wrong; I like Radiant Dawn, and it has a better-written story than a lot of FE games, but it isn't as well-written as Path of Radiance, especially in this area. 

[Icelerate]

10 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

That's a gameplay mechanic; Lekain seemed perfectly capable of immediately doing all kinds of stuff after teleporting whenever the plot needed him to do so. Personally, I prefer when gameplay and story are well-integrated. 

The Senate never had any intention of personally fighting anyone until part 4. They were happy to sit in the Begnion Capital with only Valtome going anywhere near a battlefield (and even then staying out of the conflict and just barking orders). So those staffs are just going to spend their time not doing anything. 

  

I find it funny that you say it's the best at integrating them when I just said earlier that it's not well-integrated at all. Sure; it's used in the gameplay and not just the story, and I do like that, but its use in gameplay and its use in story contradict one-another. You are correct in everything you pointed out in the gameplay, but the story contradicts it: in the story, they can use it freely whenever they want and it doesn't run out of uses or make them have to pause for a bit before they can do anything. 

Don't get me wrong; I like Radiant Dawn, and it has a better-written story than a lot of FE games, but it isn't as well-written as Path of Radiance, especially in this area. 

Proof that Lekain can launch surprise attacks right after teleportation? All he did was talk after teleportation. No proof, he or anyone else can launch effective surprise attacks when gameplay shows it can not be used for these purposes as demonstrated by my initial post. 

They were the personal possessions of Lekain. The rewarp staffs haven't been shown to be an effective weapon in ambushes. 

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I had forgotten that Izuka had a rewarp staff. Though it reaffirms my point: they never make it clear how many there are; if it's just two, then why give it to Izuka, and not someone who can make more use out of it if you're going to give it to someone else anyway? I could understand the senators hoarding the tech for themselves if there were so few of them to go around, but them giving one to Izuka shows that they are willing to give them to others; why not give it to someone who can do more with it?

Izuka was with the senate and did their deed so it can be considered a reward for his services. Why did Black Knight not give the blessed armour to someone in the Daein army that can put it to good use instead of Ashnard who wasn't on the front line? 

You're the one who keeps on saying there are people who can do more with them so I want you to give an example. Also, isn't it easy to defect when you can just warp away so it makes sense Lekain would only give it to people who he trusts 100%, which is only himself, Lekain, Numida and Valtome. 

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I find it funny that you say it's the best at integrating them when I just said earlier that it's not well-integrated at all. Sure; it's used in the gameplay and not just the story, and I do like that, but its use in gameplay and its use in story contradict one-another. You are correct in everything you pointed out in the gameplay, but the story contradicts it: in the story, they can use it freely whenever they want and it doesn't run out of uses or make them have to pause for a bit before they can do anything. 

I don't see a contradiction in the story and game-play in this regard. Story shows rewarp can't be used to launch surprise attacks, gameplay shows the same thing. 

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Don't get me wrong; I like Radiant Dawn, and it has a better-written story than a lot of FE games, but it isn't as well-written as Path of Radiance, especially in this area. 

Well you haven't given any evidence that this is the case. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Icelerate

[Jingle Jangle]

For Three Houses, I felt that teleporting villains was more of a crutch than in other games. All the major antagonists have to some degree making certain scenes feel cheap. Raising more questions.

[TWrex]

Yeah the whole enemy teleports to get out of a losing situation is really obnoxious from a storytelling standpoint.  It goes hand in hand with the whole "win in the game lose in the cutscene" shtick that game devs love to use sometimes.  That shit gets mad annoying as it feels like I'm not being rewarded for winning and it is made doubly annoying when they have the villain act all superior and smug in the cutscene as they warp away despite me having just kicked their ass.  Like for Three Houses I push Edelgards shit in like 3 times throughout the story and yet every time we square off she's confident she'll win.  Like have you not paid attention the past 3 times we squared off and I've completely destroyed you and your entire battalion.  XBC2 was notorious for this shit as well.

[vanguard333]

8 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Proof that Lekain can launch surprise attacks right after teleportation? All he did was talk after teleportation. No proof, he or anyone else can launch effective surprise attacks when gameplay shows it can not be used for these purposes as demonstrated by my initial post. 

8 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I don't see a contradiction in the story and game-play in this regard. Story shows rewarp can't be used to launch surprise attacks, gameplay shows the same thing. 

So, first your statement is that there's no proof either way, then your statement is that there is proof that he can't. Hm...

Besides; I have proof: you said "all he did was talk right after teleportation"; in gameplay terms, while you can talk, then attack an opponent, you can't talk if the person has already spent their turn. By your own logic, Lekain's "phase" should be over, yet he teleports, talks to his heart's content, then teleports again. Seems like there's no in=story cost whatsoever to teleporting via rewarp staff. 

12 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

They were the personal possessions of Lekain. The rewarp staffs haven't been shown to be an effective weapon in ambushes. 

They don't have to be shown; they've been established as something that exists and can be used to teleport anywhere in the blink of an eye. Plus, the Black Knight's warp powder is just as flashy and noisy, and he's able to ambush all the time. He rarely does so, however, because the warp powder drains his strength. 

 

14 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Izuka was with the senate and did their deed so it can be considered a reward for his services. Why did Black Knight not give the blessed armour to someone in the Daein army that can put it to good use instead of Ashnard who wasn't on the front line? 

To use your own argument, that was never shown to be the case.

As for the Black Knight giving the armour to Ashnard and not someone else; I have three things about that:

1. Indestructible armour is not the same thing as a teleportation device
2. Ashnard may not have been on the front line, but he was actually in the battle and fighting. Even if he had a teleportation device, he wouldn't have fled; he would've stayed and fought because that's established about Ashnard's character: he loves to fight whenever he sees a chance at a worthy opponent. The Senators (and Izuka) are never anywhere near the action until Part 4, as they never intended to ever be anywhere near the action. 
3. Hm... I wonder if there's something important about Ashnard, less in terms of status, but in practical terms. Something that would make him someone you wouldn't want to see killed by a stray arrow or magic spell, as if he, I don't know, leads something very important for the Black Knight's master's plans... I don't know; I mean, it's not like Ashnard is the leader of an army plotting to ignite war across the continent and he has no heirs that anyone knows about at that point in time... 

It's almost as if giving it to Ashnard was putting it to good use. 

And, even if you were correct, that would be a whataboutism and a franchise-original-sin fallacy, not a real argument. 

23 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

You're the one who keeps on saying there are people who can do more with them so I want you to give an example. Also, isn't it easy to defect when you can just warp away so it makes sense Lekain would only give it to people who he trusts 100%, which is only himself, Lekain, Numida and Valtome. 

And Izuka; let's not forget Izuka, and there's no evidence he does trust Izuka that much. If there's enough staffs to go around, then giving them to his soldiers makes no sense. If there's so few that doing so would be impractical and he may as well hoard them for himself because he's self-centered (which he is), then giving one to Izuka makes no sense. 

27 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Well you haven't given any evidence that this is the case. 

Yes I have; twice now. 

[Icelerate]

On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, vanguard333 said:

So, first your statement is that there's no proof either way, then your statement is that there is proof that he can't. Hm...

 Besides; I have proof: you said "all he did was talk right after teleportation"; in gameplay terms, while you can talk, then attack an opponent, you can't talk if the person has already spent their turn. By your own logic, Lekain's "phase" should be over, yet he teleports, talks to his heart's content, then teleports again. Seems like there's no in=story cost whatsoever to teleporting via rewarp staff. 

No, I said your original claim has no proof. 

Lekain talking isn't the same as attacking. Pelleas had no reason to stop Lekain from talking and in gameplay terms, he's an allied npc so of course he'd be able to talk to his heart's content. And in RD, you can talk and attack at the same time. 

Dude Lekain was wielding the staff whenever he teleported in the story. It is canon you need a tome to attack as shown by Micaiah and Soren in cut scenes. A staff can't be used to launch attacks. So the story supports that he can't ambush with staves unless you think using staves to bonk an enemy is an effective use of staves for the purpose of ambush. 

On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, vanguard333 said:

They don't have to be shown; they've been established as something that exists and can be used to teleport anywhere in the blink of an eye. Plus, the Black Knight's warp powder is just as flashy and noisy, and he's able to ambush all the time. He rarely does so, however, because the warp powder drains his strength. 

 

BK can wield Alondite while using warp powder, he doesn't need to wield a staff so of course he'd be able to launch surprise attacks to his heart's content. Not to mention, BK is a warrior who uses physical attacks while staff users are magic users which need tomes and we see in cut-scenes that the process of casting magic is slower than sword strikes. 

On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, vanguard333 said:

To use your own argument, that was never shown to be the case.

It not being shown doesn't mean it is not plausible. It's not exactly shown how most of Sigurd's army survived Belhella massacre but that doesn't mean it isn't plausible. 

On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, vanguard333 said:

1. Indestructible armour is not the same thing as a teleportation device
2. Ashnard may not have been on the front line, but he was actually in the battle and fighting. Even if he had a teleportation device, he wouldn't have fled; he would've stayed and fought because that's established about Ashnard's character: he loves to fight whenever he sees a chance at a worthy opponent. The Senators (and Izuka) are never anywhere near the action until Part 4, as they never intended to ever be anywhere near the action. 
3.  Hm... I wonder if there's something important about Ashnard, less in terms of status, but in practical terms. Something that would make him someone you wouldn't want to see killed by a stray arrow or magic spell, as if he, I don't know, leads something very important for the Black Knight's master's plans... I don't know; I mean, it's not like Ashnard is the leader of an army plotting to ignite war across the continent and he has no heirs that anyone knows about at that point in time... 

 

1. Doesn't matter. Why doesn't BK give Ashnard, Bryce, Petrine or Bertram warp powder then? 

2. Ashnard only fought in the end, much like Lekain and Izuka.

3. Likewise, Lekain is very important due to being leader of the Senate so he prioritizes his own protection over the needs of the army which is very much IC for him. 

On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, vanguard333 said:

And Izuka; let's not forget Izuka, and there's no evidence he does trust Izuka that much. If there's enough staffs to go around, then giving them to his soldiers makes no sense. If there's so few that doing so would be impractical and he may as well hoard them for himself because he's self-centered (which he is), then giving one to Izuka makes no sense. 

Soldiers can't use staves especially highly advanced warp magic. Before you use BK as an example, first of all warp powder is not on the same level as rewarp staff and secondly, BK can create a magical impenetrable barrier so he's a special case. Bishops and arch sages can though but I fail to see how they'll be able to carry out an effective ambush as they'll have to swap out their staff for a tome and chant an incantation. 

Izuka gave him something that no one else did and I'd say having a spell caster that can summon feral ones is a valuable asset to protect. 

However, why the fuck does Izuka have a rewarp staff (and his tome) when he's been captured? Shouldn't he have been stripped of his weapons by Bastian and Volke when he was imprisoned? Plot hole right there. 

On 10/25/2019 at 12:50 PM, vanguard333 said:

Yes I have; twice now. 

Considering that both the gameplay and story show that rewarp is effective in running away as opposed to surprise attacks, I fail to see how your speculation is evidence. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Icelerate

[vanguard333]

@Icelerate I'm tired of this argument, you have a few good points but this is taking one of my several points about the warp staff in Radian Dawn way out of proportion. I concede the soldier thing, but not the rest. 

I'm tired of this argument, so I'll stop here, but I'll just say one thing before I do:

9 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

 

And in RD, you can talk and attack at the same time. 

I literally pointed this out in the very sentence you quoted, before then pointing out how it doesn't contradict my argument. 

[Dr. C]

I am writing a story where the heroes and villains have the power to open portals to other locations.

Its not TECHNICALLY teleporting but in order to avoid deus  ex machina levels of ridiculousness, , they cannot open portals to locations they do not know except in specific circumstances.

This prevents the villains from popping into the heroes houses and the heroes from finding the villains layers.

There is also time travel and multiverse elements to the mythos so with blind portals its, let the buyer beware or you could find yourself stranded in an alternate timeline.