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Overrated Characters?


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11 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

RD was particularly nice to SMs via a tiny bit of endgame liking their extra Spd, and buyable physical Wind Edges solving Swordlock.

As for the general audience liking SMs, it's a combination of:

  • Don't play "efficiently"/LTC so turn counts = "who cares?" and Move is therefore not so important.
  • Same "who cares" means the Swordlock isn't a problem in the games where it is one.
  • A lack of concern about consistency, so the "high" yet still only 20-60 at most Crit rates are awesome. When for more "advanced" players outside of FE6 and RNG rigging, those Crit rates are only okay because they're still too unreliable.
  • Defensively, the dodgetankiness of SMs is loved more because here too, because there is less concern about consistency? And when you playing less efficiently, it becomes easier to build up dodgetankiness? -I'm less sure of this reason.

 

"Performance" at the end of the day is: consistency, speed, and as few "unwise" investments as possible to allow for "wise" investment of resources in other units. Performance assumes averages, performance assumes no biases against any unit's personality and character. They're the criterion of an elite, if sincerely benevolently intended to help guide the masses as well.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I get why that is, though I'd add that the most important reason is "they're badass." Swordmasters and halberdiers happen to be personal favorites, whereas I have little attachment to the more efficient pegasus knights.

 

I'm not an effienciency player. I'm all about favoritism. I've never even used Marcia in PoR (or RD) despite knowing she's good. But I will use Nephenee, Aran, and Leonardo every time, despite understanding that they aren't.

 

Though even for a swordmaster, PoR Mia is pretty bad. And the reason for that is pitiful strength. Even if you do put in the resources to make her work (which is pretty doable in PoR), she has such a high possibility of being stat screwed. Whereas say... Zihark or Stefan are quite reliable.

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13 minutes ago, eclipse said:

One day, I will agree with the hype around Vanessa.  That will also be the day that she can injure something.

Oddly, every time I finish the pre-route split, Vanessa ends up with stats comparable to base Tana. So, why did I even invest in her all these times when she isn't much better than a no-invest Tana? And Ephraim gets that early Cormag who can Pure Water his Res to Vanessa's unadulterated levels, with significantly more HP, and comparable AS b/c Pegs have no Con.

I recall someone telling me Vanessa needs the early statboosters to start rolling, not unlike FE7 Florina actually, but I've seen the hype of Florina realized more often. Even though I still usually use Vanessa too, despite being not so amazing, because fliers are nice.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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3 hours ago, Etheus said:

I do not think that any of those three are cuter than Mia. (Okay, maybe Nephenee).

 

Now Lucia and Astrid, on the other hand, are hella fine.

 

 

As for her performance as a unit, yes, she's overrated in Path of Radiance (though she's actually quite the beast in Radiant Dawn). But then, swordmasters in general seem to skew far more positively with general players than their actual performance should allow. 

It’s the crit animations. Swordmasters have pretty impressive crits.

Lucia and Astrid I’ll give you but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I find Mia to be very plain in look and design.

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4 hours ago, Dr. C said:

I’m going to have to say Mia.

Never understood why she’s such a favorite in Path of Radiance. Exceedingly difficult to train and frustrating to use.

From a character standpoint, she doesn’t have a lot going on.

I can only conclude she’s popular because pretty and even then, come on! Even in her own title there are girls way cuter than her! (Points at Nephenee, Elimcia, and Cahill)

This post a million times over. I also agree that Elincia is way prettier than Mia (Callil is too, actually. Nephenee...yeah, I guess she also is. But hard to say when she covers half her face with her helmet all the time). Elincia is way more awesome in general. Mia is so boring imo. I never understood her popularity either.

I also don't understand Micaiah's. She's so underwhelming both as a character and as a unit. She gets doubled and killed so easily because her Spd and Def suck, so it's so hard to keep her alive. And her writing is kind of all over the place to me. It's just not good. And she's shoved aside by Yune later, allowing Ike to still get the most focus. And as big a fangirl of Ike as I am, his focus should've been more equal to Micaiah's, or even a bit less. Micaiah should've had some more focus than she did and maybe her writing would be better.

Edited by Anacybele
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22 minutes ago, De Geso said:

Lysithea is just okay. Far from the best unit (or even close to the top) in Three Houses. Warp is good but it isn't the end-all-be-all of efficient clears.

Warp is nice, but she's more famous for Luna, Dark Spikes, Seraphim and her minmaxed statline. Thrysus turns her from okay unit into a very dangerous unit.

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1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Warp is nice, but she's more famous for Luna, Dark Spikes, Seraphim and her minmaxed statline. Thrysus turns her from okay unit into a very dangerous unit.

I could say the same of just about any other mage with regard to Thyrsus (though Dorothea would take damage after combat due to not having a Crest). Dark Spikes isn't that great unless you really, really, REALLY hate cavalry units (which I don't find to be all that dangerous, especially compared to Swordmasters and Assassins). Luna is situational, frankly.

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1 hour ago, Garlyle said:

Warp is nice, but she's more famous for Luna, Dark Spikes, Seraphim and her minmaxed statline. Thrysus turns her from okay unit into a very dangerous unit.

Seraphim is good against monsters, I'll grant her that. Dark Spikes is useful for high damage, but everyone can hit about as hard with a combat art or something. Thyrsus is good on her - it's hard to argue against her being the best user of it.

Still, just okay imo.

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On 11/13/2019 at 9:24 PM, Etheus said:

But I will use Nephenee, Aran, and Leonardo every time, despite understanding that they aren't.

I know it's been a while since I looked at (or cared about) the Radiant Dawn tier list, but I seem to remember Nephenee was somewhere around Upper/Lower Middle tier, which is hardly "bad unit" territory.

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5 hours ago, De Geso said:

Seraphim is good against monsters, I'll grant her that. Dark Spikes is useful for high damage, but everyone can hit about as hard with a combat art or something. Thyrsus is good on her - it's hard to argue against her being the best user of it.

Thyrsus will make almost any mage amazing. That's the problem - people attribute to Lysithea the praise they should be attributing to Thyrsus, which is a broken accessory. I definitely agree with her being overrated, she only has one particularly good stat and her utility list I find questionable, though I know that some playstyles value Warp more than I.

Others:

-Ike (PoR) is hardly different from Eliwood, Eirika, and other swordlords yet he's badass so people try to act like somehow he doesn't have their flaws. (Locked promotion, iffy atk due to low sword might, infantry, lack of 1 range). tbh I'm inclined to say he's worse than them (if we consider Hector Mode anyway), since at least they get a mount on promotion and being unmounted isn't as bad as in PoR for obvious reasons.

-Boyd (RD) always struck me as basically trash, those speed/def bases are unacceptable (Rolf has more speed and he's Level 1!) and the niche of high atk is badly crowded out on the Greil Mercenaries (Haar, Titania, Ike, Gatrie... all of whom have more str base than him anyway). If people didn't have an attachment to him from PoR I suspect he'd be almost universally benched.

-Most myrmidons (exceptions: Rutger, RD Zihark/Mia) but especially the PoR ones.

-Takumi definitely got this early in Fates' life though it felt like that evaporated with time. Yeah, he's less bad than the average Sniper, but that doesn't make him great.

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On 11/13/2019 at 4:27 PM, Anacybele said:

This post a million times over. I also agree that Elincia is way prettier than Mia (Callil is too, actually. Nephenee...yeah, I guess she also is. But hard to say when she covers half her face with her helmet all the time). Elincia is way more awesome in general. Mia is so boring imo. I never understood her popularity either.

I also don't understand Micaiah's. She's so underwhelming both as a character and as a unit. She gets doubled and killed so easily because her Spd and Def suck, so it's so hard to keep her alive. And her writing is kind of all over the place to me. It's just not good. And she's shoved aside by Yune later, allowing Ike to still get the most focus. And as big a fangirl of Ike as I am, his focus should've been more equal to Micaiah's, or even a bit less. Micaiah should've had some more focus than she did and maybe her writing would be better.

Yeah Michiah  could have afforded to make her just a touch more durable. I understand she’s a mage but 2Hko at least please?

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Ike (PoR) is hardly different from Eliwood, Eirika, and other swordlords yet he's badass so people try to act like somehow he doesn't have their flaws. (Locked promotion, iffy atk due to low sword might, infantry, lack of 1 range). tbh I'm inclined to say he's worse than them (if we consider Hector Mode anyway), since at least they get a mount on promotion and being unmounted isn't as bad as in PoR for obvious reasons.

Ike exists in a far easier game, and he does not have the durability or damage dealing issues that they have. There are also more incentive to actually give him resources and level him in a game where this is also much easier and more efficient to do.

Edited by samthedigital
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12 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

-Ike (PoR) is hardly different from Eliwood, Eirika, and other swordlords yet he's badass so people try to act like somehow he doesn't have their flaws. (Locked promotion, iffy atk due to low sword might, infantry, lack of 1 range). tbh I'm inclined to say he's worse than them (if we consider Hector Mode anyway), since at least they get a mount on promotion and being unmounted isn't as bad as in PoR for obvious reasons.

To be fair to Ike, there is more reason to invest in him than there is the other two you mentioned. Like the fact that he's one of the few units that can damage the final boss, for example. Also, I don't see locked promotion to be that bad for him because most of your units won't be promoting until around the time he does anyway, as opposed to, say, Eirika, who only gets to enjoy her horse for the last quarter of her game.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

-Ike (PoR) is hardly different from Eliwood, Eirika, and other swordlords yet he's badass so people try to act like somehow he doesn't have their flaws. (Locked promotion, iffy atk due to low sword might, infantry, lack of 1 range). tbh I'm inclined to say he's worse than them (if we consider Hector Mode anyway), since at least they get a mount on promotion and being unmounted isn't as bad as in PoR for obvious reasons.

Honestly the better comparison is with Roy, with the way they both stay a sword-locked infantry in cavalry friendly games, with this awesome extremely late game sword that fixes 1-2 range, and has special text that gives it a huge advantage against the final boss. The big differences are Ike gets his story promotion at an actually reasonable time, and is in an easier game (at least in US/PAL regions), which makes him less miserable to use in the mid to early late game.

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Honestly the better comparison is with Roy, with the way they both stay a sword-locked infantry in cavalry friendly games, with this awesome extremely late game sword that fixes 1-2 range, and has special text that gives it a huge advantage against the final boss. The big differences are Ike gets his story promotion at an actually reasonable time, and is in an easier game (at least in US/PAL regions), which makes him less miserable to use in the mid to early late game.

Ike is more or less required for Ashnard on Hard/Maniac Mode, unless Ena with Resolve and or Wrath can deal good damage. (If you have a bad Ike, you aren't getting Nasir.) IIRC, she barely scratches him at base. And, Ike does get some chapters early in the game where if you aren't Titania soloing, he can rack up a good deal of EXP that few others could eat, and he'll approach 20 by like Chapter 8. So once he does promote, he won't be a bad fighter given he already was leveled so much. 

Roy by comparison 2HKOes Idunn at base, or was it 3HKO with a mere chip being needed to drop it to a 2HKO? 

 

Also, base stats:

  • Level 1 FE1/11 Marth: 18 HP 5 Str 3 (6 in 3B2) Skl 7 Spd 7 Lck 7 Def 0 Res
  • Level 1 Roy: 18 HP 5 Str 5 Skl 7 Spd 7 Lck 5 Def 0 Res
  • Level 1 Eliwood: 18 HP 5 Str 5 Skl 7 Spd 7 Lck 5 Def 0 Res
  • Level 1 PoR Ike: 19 HP 6 Str 6 Skl 7 Spd 6 Lck 5 Def 0 Res

 

Growths:

  • FE1 Marth: 90 HP 50 Str 40 Skl 50 Spd 70 Lck 20 Def 0 Res
  • Roy: 80 HP 40 Str 50 Skl 40 Spd 60 Lck 25 Def 30 Res
  • Eliwood: 80 HP 45 Str 50 Skl 40 Spd 45 Lck 30 Def 35 Res
  • PoR Ike: 75 HP 50 Str 50 Skl 55 Spd 35 Lck 40 Def 40 Res

 

Promotion Bonuses:

  • Roy: +4 HP +2 Str +3 Skl +2 Spd +2 Def +5 Res 
  • Ike: +4 HP +3 Str +2 Skl +2 Spd +3 Def +2 Res 

 

Binding Blade and Ragnell:

  • Binding Blade: 1-2 Range 18 Mt 95 Hit 10 Crit 8 Wt 20 Uses. +5 Def and Res. Effective against Manaketes and Idunn. Can be used an Elixir.
  • Ragnell: 1-2 Range 18 Mt 80 Hit 5 Crit 20 Wt ∞ Uses. +5 Def. Can penetrate blessed armor. Negates non-Wrath criticals.

Binding Blade is available for three full chapters, Ragnell for two full chapters.

 

Ike does have the better growth spread and marginally better bases, but that is about it. Ragnell's infinite uses makes it better than the Binding Blade despite inferior stats, because Ike can spam it with abandon, while Roy needs Hammerne or else be judicious with his BB uses.

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Honestly the better comparison is with Roy, with the way they both stay a sword-locked infantry in cavalry friendly games, with this awesome extremely late game sword that fixes 1-2 range, and has special text that gives it a huge advantage against the final boss. The big differences are Ike gets his story promotion at an actually reasonable time, and is in an easier game (at least in US/PAL regions), which makes him less miserable to use in the mid to early late game.

Ike is more or less required for Ashnard on Hard/Maniac Mode, unless Ena with Resolve and or Wrath can deal good damage. (If you have a bad Ike, you aren't getting Nasir.) IIRC, she barely scratches him at base. And, Ike does get some chapters early in the game where if you aren't Titania soloing, he can rack up a good deal of EXP that few others could eat, and he'll approach 20 by like Chapter 8. So once he does promote, he won't be a bad fighter given he already was leveled so much. 

Roy by comparison 2HKOes Idunn at base, or was it 3HKO with a mere chip being needed to drop it to a 2HKO? 

 

Also, base stats:

  • Level 1 FE1/11 Marth: 18 HP 5 Str 3 (6 in 3B2) Skl 7 Spd 7 Lck 7 Def 0 Res
  • Level 1 Roy: 18 HP 5 Str 5 Skl 7 Spd 7 Lck 5 Def 0 Res
  • Level 1 Eliwood: 18 HP 5 Str 5 Skl 7 Spd 7 Lck 5 Def 0 Res
  • Level 1 PoR Ike: 19 HP 6 Str 6 Skl 7 Spd 6 Lck 5 Def 0 Res

 

Growths:

  • FE1 Marth: 90 HP 50 Str 40 Skl 50 Spd 70 Lck 20 Def 0 Res
  • Roy: 80 HP 40 Str 50 Skl 40 Spd 60 Lck 25 Def 30 Res
  • Eliwood: 80 HP 45 Str 50 Skl 40 Spd 45 Lck 30 Def 35 Res
  • PoR Ike: 75 HP 50 Str 50 Skl 55 Spd 35 Lck 40 Def 40 Res

 

Promotion Bonuses:

  • Roy: +4 HP +2 Str +3 Skl +2 Spd +2 Def +5 Res 
  • Ike: +4 HP +3 Str +2 Skl +2 Spd +3 Def +2 Res 

 

Binding Blade and Ragnell:

  • Binding Blade: 1-2 Range 18 Mt 95 Hit 10 Crit 8 Wt 20 Uses. +5 Def and Res. Effective against Manaketes and Idunn. Can be used an Elixir.
  • Ragnell: 1-2 Range 18 Mt 80 Hit 5 Crit 20 Wt ∞ Uses. +5 Def. Can penetrate blessed armor. Negates non-Wrath criticals.

Binding Blade is available for three full chapters, Ragnell for two full chapters.

 

Ike does have the better growth spread and marginally better bases, but that is about it. Ragnell's infinite uses makes it better than the Binding Blade despite inferior stats, because Ike can spam it with abandon, while Roy needs Hammerne or else be judicious with his BB uses.

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13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

unless Ena with Resolve and or Wrath can deal good damage. (If you have a bad Ike, you aren't getting Nasir.) IIRC, she barely scratches him at base.

I will note that Ena is how the 0% growths maniac mode LTC deals with both Ashnards, although it does take a speed wing to one round the first form with Wrath and Resolve, and an extra speed wing and an energy drop to one round his harder form with Wrath and Resolve. Additionally if the Demon Dragon Stone that was programed into the Binding Blade was actually used, Roy and his Binding Blade would almost be mandatory for that fight.

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1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I will note that Ena is how the 0% growths maniac mode LTC deals with both Ashnards, although it does take a speed wing to one round the first form with Wrath and Resolve, and an extra speed wing and an energy drop to one round his harder form with Wrath and Resolve.

Let me crunch the numbers now:

  • Base Ena: 20 Str 15 Spd (I can safely assume she'll hit and survive being hit by Ashnard even below half health).
  • Resolve increases these to 30/22.
  • Transformation bonuses raise these to 35/26?
  • Two Speedwings (and Bryce drops one thankfully) bumps the Spd to 32. One Energy Drop bring it to 38 Str.
  • Red Breath raises it to 48 Atk.
  • Ashnard has 35 Def in both phases. The phases have 27 and then 28 Spd. 60 and 80 HP respectively.
  • 48 - 35 = 13 * 3 = 39 damage per Crit. Ashnard heals for a mere 6-8 HP per turn. 39 * 2 (just barely with the two 'wings) = dead phase one, phase two barely survives. But Ike or your Royal of choice can fix that with a chip. Or a second Energy Drop.

I see, know what you're doing, and Ike isn't so necessary after all on Hard. Ena might as well get Resolve and the Bryce Speedwing in the absence of Ike then, since they're purely for vanity on anyone else in how late they come. And if you don't need Ashnard slain so soon, you can give someone else Wrath, Ena can win the attrition war without it.

 

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Additionally if the Demon Dragon Stone that was programed into the Binding Blade was actually used, Roy and his Binding Blade would almost be mandatory for that fight.

Assuming the stone bonuses weren't for a Manakete Idunn with lower stats than she currently has. A 10+20 Def Manakete!Idunn would be no different from the 30 Def she currently has as a pre-shifted Mage Dragon.

 

 

...I'm now sorta wanting an FE6 hack where most characters get replaced by FE7 ones- bases and growths matching what they have in the FE7, everything else is FE6 (except Hector has his Wolf Beil and Lyn her Mani Katti).:

Spoiler
  1. Roy > Eliwood
  2. Marcus > Marcus
  3. Alan > Kent
  4. Lance > Sain
  5. Wolt > Rebecca
  6. Bors > Hector (I have to squeeze him in somewhere)
  7. Ellen > Serra
  8. Dieck > Raven
  9. Shanna > Florina
  10. Wade > Dorcas
  11. Lott > Bartre
  12. Chad > Matthew
  13. Lugh > Erk
  14. Clarine > Priscilla
  15. Rutger > Guy
  16. Saul turns into Lyn b/c I need her somewhere early
  17. Dorothy > Wil
  18. Sue stays Sue, because Rath I think would be better off replacing Sin. And there is no real alternative for Sue.
  19. Zealot stays Zealot, no real alternative. Or, he turns into forced promotion!Wallace.
  20. Treck > Lowen
  21. Noah stays Noah.
  22. Astolfo > Legault
  23. Barthe > Oswin
  24. Gwendolyn becomes the Saul I got rid of earlier, just to restore balance to the number of healers.
  25. Ogier > Canas, because his join time shouldn't be terribly delayed.
  26. Lilina > Lucius, to have a heavy hitting mage replace another.
  27. Fir stays the same, or becomes the underpowered FE8 Marisa, Karla can't possibly come this early.
  28. Sin > Rath.
  29. Gonzalez stays Gonzalez.
  30. Geese > Dart.
  31. Klein stays Klein.
  32. Thite > Fiora
  33. Larum > Ninian
  34. Elffin > Nils
  35. Echidna stays Echidna? Harken too stronk for this early. And so Karel would be too. Maybe Karla?
  36. Bartre > Geitz
  37. Raigh stays Raigh or turns into Knoll.
  38. Cath stays Cath.
  39. Melady > Heath (HUGE NERF)
  40. Perceval > Harken, the two are both lategame busted men.
  41. Sophia > Nino
  42. Cecilia stays Cecilia
  43. Igrene > Louise
  44. Garret > Hawkeye
  45. Fae stays Fae (or gets replaced by Myrrh with the Dragonstone uses upped to 50).
  46. Hugh... well I already used up Nino, IDK for him. Jaffar just because?
  47. Zeiss > Farina
  48. Douglas stays the same.
  49. Niime > Pent
  50. Juno > Vaida
  51. Dayan the Man stays the same.
  52. Yoder > Renault
  53. Karel > his weakling younger self, or Athos.

 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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4 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:
  • Transformation bonuses raise these to 35/26?

The transformation bonus actually get applied before the Resolve multiplier, so those numbers end up a little higher, but you get the idea.

 

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Assuming the stone bonuses weren't for a Manakete Idunn with lower stats than she currently has. A 10+20 Def Manakete!Idunn would be no different from the 30 Def she currently has as a pre-shifted Mage Dragon.

Fair enough.

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I'm not sure why we're comparing Ike to Roy (honestly any other lord really, he's not that similar to any other lord in the series). Even if their stats are similar forges, bonus exp, and enemies change quite a lot. Supports are also more relevant, and Ike has great support bonuses.

Quote

And if you don't need Ashnard slain so soon, you can give someone else Wrath, Ena can win the attrition war without it.

Wrath isn't exactly useful anywhere else besides trying to use it to beat the BK, so it's just better to use it against whoever is dealing with Ashnard.

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21 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Thyrsus will make almost any mage amazing. That's the problem - people attribute to Lysithea the praise they should be attributing to Thyrsus, which is a broken accessory. I definitely agree with her being overrated, she only has one particularly good stat and her utility list I find questionable, though I know that some playstyles value Warp more than I.

Lysithea is clearly the best candidate for Thyrsus and all the Magic Stat boosters in the game though, she’s only a few points away from OHKOing most late game enemies in Maddening thanks to having the highest Mag stat late game, most damaging spells (Hades & Dark Spikes) and Luna for Gremory/Falcon Knight/ Boss nuking.

Thyrsus makes even horrendous mage like Annette or Lorenz good but that doesn’t change the fact that the Relic is best given to Lysithea (or Dorothea, Hubert if you don’t have her on your team).

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40 minutes ago, Ari Chan said:

Lysithea is clearly the best candidate for Thyrsus and all the Magic Stat boosters in the game though, she’s only a few points away from OHKOing most late game enemies in Maddening thanks to having the highest Mag stat late game, most damaging spells (Hades & Dark Spikes) and Luna for Gremory/Falcon Knight/ Boss nuking.

Thyrsus makes even horrendous mage like Annette or Lorenz good but that doesn’t change the fact that the Relic is best given to Lysithea (or Dorothea, Hubert if you don’t have her on your team).

The best nukers is one that does not restrict you to the low movement, no canto gremory because you have so few ammunitions on your big guns and so many enemies require one speciphic spell. 

Thyrsus on a Dark knight>Thyrsus on a gremory, and hubert is much better than Lysithea in that class because he get frozen lance simply by qualifing for it and using it whit a silver lance+ outdamage Hades even if he has no faire(wich he won't), and using it whit an horseslayr basically give him extra uses of dark spike.

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