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About Rhea...


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5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

For all we know, if Edelgard didn't go to war, she could have tried to talk to the other leaders about what to do for the future. It seems most were open to change, especially with Rhea being ready to hand over the Church to Byleth.

 

Well, no. Just no. For several reasons:

1) Discussion was already dismissed and attempted. Dimitri's scene for the Ball? He openly acknowledges him and Edelgard have driften apart too much for that. Golden Deer? Claude and Edelgard don't manage to trust each other enough, and nothing happens.

2) Rhea was preparing to hand over the Church to Mama, important distinction. She marginally switches her position after the Flame Emperor disrupts her ritual, but she didn't seem that happy with its results even before that. Not sure of what would have happened if no Flame Emperor Interruption.

3) Heck, the very fact things progressed that far regarding Sothis is pretty much the ultimate perfect storm, from the bandit attack to the Holy Tomb, to that fusion... and the coincidences only started to pile up because that bandit attack started it all. No war, no tricks like that, and the whole sequence gets out of sync. And Fodlan is already on the verge of collapse and war anyways because of how rotten things have gotten, so any delay just short out that possibility.

4) Edelgard had things to gain from the war. Yes. But ultimately, it was the Mole People's war. You know, the people who used Aegir's little coup to take control of the Empire? And who clearly wanted that war? At what moment did they give the impression they would tolerate the idea that Edelgard would do anything else than declare that war for them exactly? And at what moment do they give the impression they would call off said war?

 

5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

The holy book also speaks about how the Goddess hates the nobles for abusing the power of the crests and relics, and yet, the nobles never follow this. It should be obvious that nobles will only look out for themselves. Just because she is immortal doesn't mean she has actual control/power over every living being in Fodlan. After all, the Church it seems the Church helps those who requests for it, and it seems to stay out of others' affairs (unless they are attacked of course). Also, the fact that she allowed Hanneman to continue his studies makes it seem that she was open to alternative means of usage for the crests.

1) People cherry-picking the holy books for proping their position. It's new how exactly? And why the Church, you know, that supreme moral authority with an army said to be able to rival with any kingdom of Fodlan, never cracked down on the earlier cases to make it clear they couldn't paly at that little game? Dress it in 'Remember Nemesis, Sinner!' and voila.

2) Immortal ruler means for me that she had centuries to see the rot sip in and try to extract it from her system. While using that supreme moral authority position she built for herself, or that freaking army she commands. She is the one talking about how she wanted to impose peace and order on Fodlan, I will hold her accountable for the failure.

3) They also use catastrophes like Duscur to hide their execution of would-be assassins (Cristophe), while doing jack shit to rein in shit like Duscur, and their way of mediating seems... skewed (War of the Eagle and Lion. A frakking Knight is the one to tell you that yup, the Church was really leaning on Loog's side here. Yes, they were winning, but mediation is usually supposed to be a neutral party, not help one party to bleed dry the other).

4) ... Just how far would Hanneman have been allowed to go though? His research with crests was bound to touch upon truths Rhea didn't want to be revealed, and awake some nice flashbacks to the Mole People regarding tech. And if you can't control a scholar by making him agree with secrecy through money, or discredit them, there are only so many ways of keeping them under control... Oh, and how could I forget the Mole People? What happen when they take interest, be it for assassination or taking control? I mean, there is no shortage of corrupt noble they can use as strawmen for that type of actions. Also, it has been one frakking thousand years. I refuse to believe he was the first to think about that over the centuries. And yet, nothing changed so far.

 

4 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

 

As for the second point, Rhea and Seteth knew that TWSitD were out there, but they simply weren't able to find them (they gave up after searching. The only way anyone was able to find them was through tracking the  missiles, which TWSitD knew was an issue, so they haven't launched them within that time period.

 

If anything, that's a bad mark against Rhea, and a big one. She knew the buggers had proped Nemesis up from two-bit thug to 'King of Liberation', that they were no quitters and would come back to sink the boat. The fact she either couldn't be assed to think about fighting them in the shadows to make sure they didn't rock her boat, or failed to win that fight after making it her responsibility by erasing trace of the Mole People is not exactly a sterling achievement to boast about. At least in the second case she tried rather than gift-wrap them Fodlan. And heck, you really think she is an incompetent moron if you figure she couldn't even try for an old-fashioned searching over one freaking thousand years and just let the guys do the duck the wanted accross Fodlan. You can cover lots of ground with that sort of time, you know?

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On 10/29/2019 at 5:49 AM, MrPerson0 said:

Unless you have any actual cases of this happening, no, they are not the same.

It makes sense because they were willing to kill Rhea and the students. At this point, they were no different from the bandits that we normally kill in the FE games.

But you haven't pointed out what this exactly was. Catherine saying "she'll kill for Rhea" could easily mean defending her whenever she is in trouble.

The reason I brought up Edelgard's words were because you were trying to make it seem "a simple dispute" = death (more or less), which were

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the exact words that Edelgard used to describe the fight between Seiros and Nemesis.

 

I'm suggesting that in the way we see the game, nobody simply talks. They all go straight to fighting. So yes, in the context of the game, 'speaking out' is the same as drawing swords in it that we see that everybody starts with action and not talking. 

You act as if bandits don't deserve to be listened to either? So no. We all understand they were trying to kill Rhea/students, but that doesn't mean they deserve to be immediately executed. I'm not arguing they deserved to be executed, I'm just saying it was suppression because they clearly had knowledge she didn't want getting out. So it expedited a process that shouldn't have happened.

Someone saying they'll kill for someone does in no way mean defending her when she's in trouble. Also when you ask Shamir if she's killed on orders before she says she has and that killing criminals is what she does. She doesn't question, she just does. It brings up an entire gray area because we don't know if they truly were criminals, but that Rhea deemed them so and if Rhea says it, people follow. And for Catherine, saying "she'll kill for Rhea" 100%  means she will kill upon Rhea's orders,

Spoiler

which she does when she sets the town on fire. So we all know what Catherine meant by her physical actions in the game. You can't suddenly twist her words after you yourself brought up what she did.

5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Don't forget that Byleth was practically the farthest she has gotten, with them being able to unlock the full power of the SotC and whatnot. Pretty sure that once she saw that Byleth sitting on the chair didn't do anything, she would likely gave up any hope of bringing her back (in full) at that point. Just having Byleth at her side was likely enough.

Unless you have any actual evidence that she actually gave up hope and would never experiment again, you can't say that. That is purely a headcanon that having Byleth at her side was enough upon seeing Byleth on that throne. She says that eventually having Byleth at her side was enough, but that's only if you S support her and go through the Church route meaning it's only after the 5 years that she see's Byleth for who they are. She even says something to the effect of "What went wrong, what am I missing" to suggest she's nowhere near done with the experimentation. 

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Well, it's not said that Rhea is the Archbishop since the foundation of the church. We only know that she already was the archbishop when Jeralt was a knight.

I believe the church had others archbishops during all its existence, and maybe some of them, if not all, were Rhea with another name and/or appearance.

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8 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

4) Edelgard had things to gain from the war. Yes. But ultimately, it was the Mole People's war. You know, the people who used Aegir's little coup to take control of the Empire? And who clearly wanted that war? At what moment did they give the impression they would tolerate the idea that Edelgard would do anything else than declare that war for them exactly? And at what moment do they give the impression they would call off said war?

There still was nothing stopping Edelgard from telling Dimitri, Rhea, and Claude what was actually going on in the background. The fact that she apparently chose to work with TWSitD instead of being forced to (as Hubert mentions in CF), shows that she had more power on her own, especially when you look at the Japanese version of Cornelia's death quote in CF.

8 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

And heck, you really think she is an incompetent moron if you figure she couldn't even try for an old-fashioned searching over one freaking thousand years and just let the guys do the duck the wanted accross Fodlan. You can cover lots of ground with that sort of time, you know? 

She never controlled the entirety of Fodlan. If she did, more people would be forced to actually follow the teachings of Seiros, and obviously, it would have been easier to find them.

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

I'm suggesting that in the way we see the game, nobody simply talks. They all go straight to fighting. So yes, in the context of the game, 'speaking out' is the same as drawing swords in it that we see that everybody starts with action and not talking.  

Which is a pretty big problem with their mentality. Case in point is Edelgard, choosing to go to war to take over the continent instead of trying to work with other leaders.

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Unless you have any actual evidence that she actually gave up hope and would never experiment again, you can't say that. That is purely a headcanon that having Byleth at her side was enough upon seeing Byleth on that throne. She says that eventually having Byleth at her side was enough, but that's only if you S support her and go through the Church route meaning it's only after the 5 years that she see's Byleth for who they are. She even says something to the effect of "What went wrong, what am I missing" to suggest she's nowhere near done with the experimentation.  

The actual quote is "It was supposed to be but a step away...What could I be missing?" not, "What went wrong". You are trying to argue that it's headcanon to think she would stop there, even though she willingly handed the church over to Byleth during the war. It's not farfetched to think that Rhea would have done the same instead of trying another experiment, because, once again, this was the farthest she has gotten.

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1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Which is a pretty big problem with their mentality. Case in point is Edelgard, choosing to go to war to take over the continent instead of trying to work with other leaders.

The actual quote is "It was supposed to be but a step away...What could I be missing?" not, "What went wrong". You are trying to argue that it's headcanon to think she would stop there, even though she willingly handed the church over to Byleth during the war. It's not farfetched to think that Rhea would have done the same instead of trying another experiment, because, once again, this was the farthest she has gotten.

I'm not arguing it's a wrong mentality. You seem to want to keep bringing up Edelgard instead of focusing on Rhea, who is the topic of this conversation. But just as Edelgard had the wrong mentality, so did Rhea. So what's your point?

Exactly. "What could I be missing?" suggests she entirely intends to keep searching for that final missing piece. She even calls Byleth a failed experiment should you choose to not side with her, only further highlighting her TRUE thoughts about them. It's only by fighting by her side that she comes to think of you not as a failed experiment and as a person on your own right. So yes, that is a headcannon. Because we clearly see Rhea's views/thoughts/choices are entirely influenced by your choice. But at the moment of the throne, she is still scheming and still views you as a failed experiment. When has Rhea settled for anything under perfection? You're just reaching at this point.

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2 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

There still was nothing stopping Edelgard from telling Dimitri, Rhea, and Claude what was actually going on in the background. The fact that she apparently chose to work with TWSitD instead of being forced to (as Hubert mentions in CF), shows that she had more power on her own, especially when you look at the Japanese version of Cornelia's death quote in CF.

 

Dimitri: ... You serious? Because I can't help but hear people getting neck-snapped with a one-hand grip when you say that.

Claude: That was tried. No one was willing to do first step, it died.

Chose to work with the Mole People: Again, the same Mole People controlling her Empire. Because I only need one look to both Aegir and Tharundel to see the one who was wearing the pants in that plot, no matter which one was ostensibly the ruler. It does give them a tiny bit more leverage than you think, and one relatively hard to shake off (it takes years in CF, and Arianrhod is there to show you that it is not an easy processus).

Also, friendly reminder that before the well was terminally poisoned with Remire and Jeralt, you always had at least one Mole People in Garreg Mach, ThomaSolon and MoniCrony, and later one (MoniCrony) literally glued to Edelgard harder than her Doki Doki namesake. You generally call that 'handlers', aka people you put there to control covert assets so they play the script as intended and do not entertain funny ideas of going rogue.

 

2 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

She never controlled the entirety of Fodlan. If she did, more people would be forced to actually follow the teachings of Seiros, and obviously, it would have been easier to find them.

 

Euh, did you looked at that map? The only part of Fodlan not controlled by one of the three kingdoms is Sreng. I think there were aplenty chances to find them.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

Also, friendly reminder that before the well was terminally poisoned with Remire and Jeralt, you always had at least one Mole People in Garreg Mach, ThomaSolon and MoniCrony, and later one (MoniCrony) literally glued to Edelgard harder than her Doki Doki namesake. You generally call that 'handlers', aka people you put there to control covert assets so they play the script as intended and do not entertain funny ideas of going rogue.

It's pretty misleading to suggesting that Dimitri and Claude would act like that, especially when those two want a better Fodlan, and want to find out the truth of various things/events.

Those two being at the monastery really doesn't matter since they need Edelgard (as a tool in their view), and it doesn't change the fact that Edelgard chose to work with them, instead of being forced to. They needed her, and she needed them (apparently).

35 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

Euh, did you looked at that map? The only part of Fodlan not controlled by one of the three kingdoms is Sreng. I think there were aplenty chances to find them.

She still doesn't control all of Fodlan. It's not like she can invade the Empire, Kingdom, or Alliance on her own all willy-nilly. From what we have seen, the Church only helps out when they are asked to do so (or someone takes up arms against them).

47 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

You seem to want to keep bringing up Edelgard instead of focusing on Rhea, who is the topic of this conversation. But just as Edelgard had the wrong mentality, so did Rhea. So what's your point? 

Because Edelgard is a pivotal point of this game no matter what?

48 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

She even calls Byleth a failed experiment should you choose to not side with her, only further highlighting her TRUE thoughts about them.

Because she was pretty emotional, seeing her reborn mother siding with the villain who was (in their view) behind a good amount of the attacks in Garreg Mach, especially the death of your own father? The fact that Edelgard being the Flame Emperor is never brought up again shows how silly this decision was.

 

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9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

It's pretty misleading to suggesting that Dimitri and Claude would act like that, especially when those two want a better Fodlan, and want to find out the truth of various things/events.

Those two being at the monastery really doesn't matter since they need Edelgard (as a tool in their view), and it doesn't change the fact that Edelgard chose to work with them, instead of being forced to. They needed her, and she needed them (apparently).

Except they acted like that, in BL and GD routes respectively. That scene of the Flame Emperor Reveal for Blue Lions, and the scene with Claude and Edelgard in the library of Golden Deer are there for a reason.

. . . Okay, what parts of the definitions of 'coup', handler' and 'puppet ruler' you didn't understand? And just because they need Edelgard alive doesn't mean they cannot deep-six any intiative to get things to get out from under their thumb. Actually, it looks like an excellent reason to watch her closely and do just that.

 

12 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

She still doesn't control all of Fodlan. It's not like she can invade the Empire, Kingdom, or Alliance on her own all willy-nilly. From what we have seen, the Church only helps out when they are asked to do so (or someone takes up arms against them).

 

Seriously? Her Knights have pretty much a free pass to go anywhere on Fodlan, as long as a pretext exist. So... I freaking dunno, use these pretexts, and when they are not enough, create other ones?

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5 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

That scene of the Flame Emperor Reveal for Blue Lions, and the scene with Claude and Edelgard in the library of Golden Deer are there for a reason.

Except I am trying to talk about her not being the Flame Emperor, and going to them for help first?

6 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

. . . Okay, what parts of the definitions of 'coup', handler' and 'puppet ruler' you didn't understand?

There's no doubt that a war would still occur if TWSitD took over. Doesn't change that Edelgard still could have been with the Church/Dimitri/Claude, providing them needed info. As I said, it was her choice to side with TWSitD, and she seemingly wasn't forced to do so.

6 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

So... I freaking dunno, use these pretexts, and when they are not enough, create other ones? 

Seems these pretexts are not equal. From what we have seen, they only enter the Kingdom on their own to deal with Lonato and the Western Church, which once again, was out to kill Rhea.

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2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Except I am trying to talk about her not being the Flame Emperor, and going to them for help first? 

Was the case with the Claude example I pointed out, and welp, my point was more to show what sort of reaction Dimitri could have had to that sort of revelation. Hint, not exactly stellar.

 

2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

There's no doubt that a war would still occur if TWSitD took over. Doesn't change that Edelgard still could have been with the Church/Dimitri/Claude, providing them needed info. As I said, it was her choice to side with TWSitD, and she seemingly wasn't forced to do so. 

Little secret: they took over, remember Tharundel and that thing called Insurrection of the Seven? And they have been in control of Adrestia for what, the better part of a decade now? You bet that Edelgard was given a free 'choice' here.

 

4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Seems these pretexts are not equal. From what we have seen, they only enter the Kingdom on their own to deal with Lonato and the Western Church, which once again, was out to kill Rhea.

And they also do that routinely for bandit squashing all across Fodlan, plus covering students during their assigned mission. Is it that hard to use these pretexts for covert ops?

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40 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Because Edelgard is a pivotal point of this game no matter what?

Because she was pretty emotional, seeing her reborn mother siding with the villain who was (in their view) behind a good amount of the attacks in Garreg Mach, especially the death of your own father? The fact that Edelgard being the Flame Emperor is never brought up again shows how silly this decision was.

 

You seem to be great at not actually addressing the issue. Edelgard is a pivotal point, but she's not relevant to this discussion about Rhea? 

Okay, but the fact of the matter is, when we're emotional we tend to speak about how we truly feel. So her calling Byleth a failed experiment is indicative of her actual true emotions, rather than the false, peaceful one she usually puts on. The Flame Emperor/Edelgard wasn't behind the death of Byleth's father. That was TWISTD. She certainly played a hand, but if you want to go down that route so did Rhea for knowing about TWISTD the entire time and not ONCE explaining who they were. So focused on her own goals she let them grow to the magnitude they did. The whole thing is a bit silly. And once again, you're bringing up Edelgard instead of focusing on Rhea.

The point of the discussion is that Rhea has violently suppressed at some point in the past as evidenced by both Catherine and Shamir. We do not know the natures of said events, but we do know they happened.

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15 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

Hint, not exactly stellar. 

Because she was literally the Flame Emperor, who was behind a good amount of the crimes in the monastery. Also, Dimitri outright saw her working with them. As I said, if Edelgard never took up that persona, and came to them for help, things would be different.

17 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

You bet that Edelgard was given a free 'choice' here. 

That is a bet that was disproved by Hubert in CF right after the timeskip. Even Edelgard was against working with them, but Hubert had to convince her to do so because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

18 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

And they also do that routinely for bandit squashing all across Fodlan

The pretext is these bandits already attacked the students in the beginning of the game. Guess you have forgotten that, for the Almyrans (who were 'pirates') at the city of Deirdru, the merchants had to ask for the Church's help?

10 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

You seem to be great at not actually addressing the issue. Edelgard is a pivotal point, but she's not relevant to this discussion about Rhea?  

You literally said "nobody talks", and I brought up Edelgard, because this is how the writing of this game has worked out.

11 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

She certainly played a hand, but if you want to go down that route so did Rhea for knowing about TWISTD the entire time and not ONCE explaining who they were. So focused on her own goals she let them grow to the magnitude they did.

Ah, yes, Rhea forgetting about them (likely assuming that they left because they were not able to find them initially) is definitely the same as directly working with them.

12 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

The point of the discussion is that Rhea has violently suppressed at some point in the past as evidenced by both Catherine and Shamir. We do not know the natures of said events, but we do know they happened.

And, until the game actually fleshes out on this (through DLC, which seems unlikely), this is just headcanon. Shamir's assassinations could easily have been referring to people who were targeting the Church (or its allies), and Catherine's loyalty to Rhea is just as bad as Cyril's.

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1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Because she was literally the Flame Emperor, who was behind a good amount of the crimes in the monastery. Also, Dimitri outright saw her working with them. As I said, if Edelgard never took up that persona, and came to them for help, things would be different.

Dmitri is not rational until after Rodrigue's death. He might only snap after the scene you mention, but his dark side is there from the start of the game. Trying to explain that you're working with the people responsible for his father's death, even if unwillingly, will not go over well.

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is a bet that was disproved by Hubert in CF right after the timeskip. Even Edelgard was against working with them, but Hubert had to convince her to do so because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

This is in CF where she has Byleth by her side, and is winning the war. She does have a choice here, and Hubert is convincing her to hold off until the Church and Kingdom are dealt with. Pre-time skip? Yeah, she doesn't have much choice here. It's also why she's reliant on them in other paths, as evidenced by the prominent use of Demonic Beasts and Slither mages.

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

The pretext is these bandits already attacked the students in the beginning of the game. Guess you have forgotten that, for the Almyrans (who were 'pirates') at the city of Deirdru, the merchants had to ask for the Church's help?

Searching for TWS requires her agents knowing at least part of what they're looking for, and Rhea has serious trust issues, even with SETETH of all people. Which, ironically, makes her such a perfect opposite number to Edelgard, who also restricts her own options due to lack of trust in others.

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Ah, yes, Rhea forgetting about them (likely assuming that they left because they were not able to find them initially) is definitely the same as directly working with them.

Again, unless you're in CF she really doesn't have much choice. Telling others is a risk, with Monica and Tomas around, not to mention possible other spies, and again, Edelgard has serious trust issues to begin with. Furthermore, Rhea and Dmitri are both likely to have severe emotional reactions. Claude is a better option, except for the fact that he does nothing to help his own case for trustworthiness (even calling himself "the embodiment of distrust" in Prologue)

1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

And, until the game actually fleshes out on this (through DLC, which seems unlikely), this is just headcanon. Shamir's assassinations could easily have been referring to people who were targeting the Church (or its allies), and Catherine's loyalty to Rhea is just as bad as Cyril's.

Who knows? Catherine and Cyril are unreliable narrators when it comes to Rhea but other than Lonato/Christophe not much detail is given and those incidents are colored by the fact that both intended on killing Rhea.

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4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is a bet that was disproved by Hubert in CF right after the timeskip. Even Edelgard was against working with them, but Hubert had to convince her to do so because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

 And it took her years to shake them off that much, and Tharundel is still sitting on a massive army, loyal to only him, she still has to play nice with him, bails out his cronies (Hubert Paralogue), or leave him do things like snatching all Alliances' Relics, and then shows that he has nukes to use to make sure she 'minds her manners'. Outright confrontation would have meant bloody civil war, and more than likely ruined her chances of winning her war. And that's assuming they would have left her go that far  while she was in the phase 'get the Empire behind her' if it became clear she was going to attack them first. And that is with Best Case Crimson Flower. They clearly can manage to have an even deeper grip in other routes. Tharundel does refer to her as their 'prized weapon', remeber? That usually means you take precautions to make sure this sort of people remain under control for at least as long as you need them for your own objectives.

 

6 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

The pretext is these bandits already attacked the students in the beginning of the game. Guess you have forgotten that, for the Almyrans (who were 'pirates') at the city of Deirdru, the merchants had to ask for the Church's help?

Almighty Gygax, you are serious. Here is another secret: these are but a sample of the requests sent to the Church of Seiros. Remember things like, the story missions? The other paralogues? The skirmishes you can go for all across Fodlan with the Battle option? Knights are clearly having way more missions than the ones seen on-screen (they are repeatedly mentioned as streched thin. You know, that would imply they are already been sent to the four corners of Fodlan). Also, another mind-boggling fact: it's only over one year. Just imagine how many other requests they could have gotten over the one thousand years they existed.

 

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Because she was literally the Flame Emperor, who was behind a good amount of the crimes in the monastery. Also, Dimitri outright saw her working with them. As I said, if Edelgard never took up that persona, and came to them for help, things would be different. 

And yet the one thing he snapped for was Duscur, aka something you could not rationnaly pinpoint on Edelgard, owing to her age and position at the moment of the Tragedy. That does not point towards a very rational reaction to this sort of revelations, or a reaction subtle enough such as the one required here. Oh, and the fact they would have diverging opinion on how to settle this (Dimitri thinks the statu quo is to be bettered, Edelgard that it should be shattered, up to including the Church. COnflict looks rather hard to avoid here). There is also the fact he considers himself that things with Edelgard are beyond the point of discussion (his Ball scene). And again, that's assuming they don't take umbrage of something like, oh I dunno, their pet Nemesis 2.0 project taking a course of action leading to her openly and directly rebelling against them.

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9 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

then shows that he has nukes to use to make sure she 'minds her manners'.

It's pretty clear that the nukes are a last resort, because they can't fire them whenever they want to unless they want people to track where they are. The fact that Cornelia, upon her death in CF, realizes that they have been strung along (according to the Japanese version) shows that they are not really as powerful as Edelgard is.

2 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

Remember things like, the story missions? The other paralogues?

For Story missions, outside of Lonato and Sylvain's brother (the latter of which they were asked to deal with), don't recall them going to another country in White Clouds (other than the Battle at Gronder and early training sessions) As for the paralogues, the students were dealing with their own issues in their lands.

3 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

The skirmishes you can go for all across Fodlan with the Battle option?

You ask me if I am serious, then you are the one who tries to tie a game mechanic to the story...Nonetheless, how about the very high likelihood that all of the skirmishes are requests by people in the region to take care of the bandits/pirates, just like how it worked with the Alois paralogue? Don't see how either of these make it seem that Rhea is in control of all of Fodlan.

11 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

something you could not rationnaly pinpoint on Edelgard, owing to her age and position at the moment of the Tragedy

In the medieval times, 14 years old isn't really seen as that young (unfortunately), and that ties to this as well. It might seem irrational to think a 14 year old could do such as thing in our time, but it really isn't back then.

23 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

There is also the fact he considers himself that things with Edelgard are beyond the point of discussion

This is because he is slowly starting to realize that she is the Flame Emperor (she dropped his knife in an earlier scene, and he recognized it). As for their ideals, the might not agree on how things should happen, they would likely come to an agreement if Edelgard wasn't willing to go as far as she did (becoming the Flame Emperor and working with TWSitD).

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11 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

Almighty Gygax, you are serious. Here is another secret: these are but a sample of the requests sent to the Church of Seiros. Remember things like, the story missions? The other paralogues? The skirmishes you can go for all across Fodlan with the Battle option? Knights are clearly having way more missions than the ones seen on-screen (they are repeatedly mentioned as streched thin. You know, that would imply they are already been sent to the four corners of Fodlan). Also, another mind-boggling fact: it's only over one year. Just imagine how many other requests they could have gotten over the one thousand years they existed.

Well I think here we have to clearly devide between the lore of the game and the mechanics behind it. So I dont think that every skirmish really happened (that would mean that the empire and kingdom would constantly loose whole cities to rebell forces - something that is definetly not canon.)

But it seems to be right that the lords of fodlan have much use for skilled mercenaries, as the group around your father also seemed to be booked out quite frequently. And the Knights beeing basically a glorified troop of elite mercenaries may be really requested in that kind of enviroment.... but wasnt your original point that they could basically overthrow the ruling lords whenever they feel like it? I dont see any evidence for that, heck in most of the routes they need the support of the kingdom or alliance to beat the empire alone and in some even with that it is not enough. But against all three forces of fodlan combined the dont have the slighest chance at all. And thos power most likely would come together if the church suddenly starts a holy war to replace the ruling caste .... from history we can tell that they dont like things like this at all.

I think the military power of the central church is higly overestimated. Most likely because the knights of seiros overestimated themselves before the war. After all they are elite mercenaries that squashed regularly their enemies on the battlefield. But they dont have numbers on their side. And in an all out war that counts the most. Something they had to learn the hard was in most of the routes.....

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Just now, MrPerson0 said:

You ask me if I am serious, then you are the one who tries to tie a game mechanic to the story...Nonetheless, how about the very high likelihood that all of the skirmishes are requests by people in the region to take care of the bandits/pirates, just like how it worked with the Alois paralogue? Don't see how either of these make it seem that Rhea is in control of all of Fodlan.

I was talking about possibility for deploying her Knights all across Fodlan, which was the point you were discussing about when I provided the answeer you quoted. And guess what, it does mean Rhea can get pretexts to send her Knights all across Fodlan. And for the control thingie, when you have an armed force patrolling a territory and removing hostile forces across it or keeping the order/peace, you are usually considered as controlling the terrotiry.

 

1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

In the medieval times, 14 years old isn't really seen as that young (unfortunately), and that ties to this as well. It might seem irrational to think a 14 year old could do such as thing in our time, but it really isn't back then.

Euh, even in medieval times, by 14, you had kings and queens go through this thing called regency, where others ruled in their stead until they were deemed old enough, and that was generally closer to 20 years than 14. Also, that thing called the Insurrection of the Seven also had been in full force by then. Edelgard was nowhere near even a scrap of power by then, so planning something like the Tragedy of Duscur...

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12 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

I was talking about possibility for deploying her Knights all across Fodlan, which was the point you were discussing about when I provided the answeer you quoted. And guess what, it does mean Rhea can get pretexts to send her Knights all across Fodlan. And for the control thingie, when you have an armed force patrolling a territory and removing hostile forces across it or keeping the order/peace, you are usually considered as controlling the terrotiry.

She could send her Knights there if the ruling Lord over that territory requested her aid. I dont think it is ever mentioned or hinted at that they could go as they please. On contrary on multiple occassions we learn that they do a missions because the authority over that part of the world requested their help or at least allowed the intrusion. So I find it quite logical to assume that the other missions are handled similiary until I ofc I have missed some evidence that claims the opposite.

Edited by Nihilem
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20 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

Well I think here we have to clearly devide between the lore of the game and the mechanics behind it. So I dont think that every skirmish really happened (that would mean that the empire and kingdom would constantly loose whole cities to rebell forces - something that is definetly not canon.)

But it seems to be right that the lords of fodlan have much use for skilled mercenaries, as the group around your father also seemed to be booked out quite frequently. And the Knights beeing basically a glorified troop of elite mercenaries may be really requested in that kind of enviroment.... but wasnt your original point that they could basically overthrow the ruling lords whenever they feel like it? I dont see any evidence for that, heck in most of the routes they need the support of the kingdom or alliance to beat the empire alone and in some even with that it is not enough. But against all three forces of fodlan combined the dont have the slighest chance at all. And thos power most likely would come together if the church suddenly starts a holy war to replace the ruling caste .... from history we can tell that they dont like things like this at all.

I think the military power of the central church is higly overestimated. Most likely because the knights of seiros overestimated themselves before the war. After all they are elite mercenaries that squashed regularly their enemies on the battlefield. But they dont have numbers on their side. And in an all out war that counts the most. Something they had to learn the hard was in most of the routes....

 

Well, the paralogues and the like do paint a picture of rampant banditry, that the nobles are unable to keep under control, when they are not joining the fray themselves (Felix, Sylvain and Ignatz/Raphael's paralogue). So, all happening? Maybe not, but I do think they have at least some reflection in the lore. Like you said, mercs are booked over, that usually means the situation is bad, and traditional autorities are unable to fix it.

Well, my point evolved because MrPerson0 keeps moving the goalposts. I began pointing out that Rhea had an army to use as a tool for her own ruling, then had to point out that, yes, this army is able to go all across Fodlan for search and destroy against the Mole People, as long as she can back this up with requests from help to the Knights in the area they are sent to. Back to the overthrowing lords? Welp, I was more envisioning something like that Rhea could have done when the Crest System began to go toxic:

-One lord begins to have funny ideas about Crests and divine right to rule.

-Rhea uses her position as well, archbishop to condamn that duck, calling back to the fall of Nemesis and the likes, to kill that sort of idea.

-If one lord keeps pushing? Using that moral authority to condamn them further, plus some diplomacy with the Emperor (I am talking about niping that idea in the bud, so probably back when it is the Empire only),  to just send her army to remove the offending noble after singling him out thhrough these condamnations (Lonato's fate show that at this scale at least, it is possible). The Emperor should not mind too much, since that would mean he remains the only noble having direct sanction from the Church to rule (archbishop as 'witness' of each new crowining).

-Poor sod who got removed becomes an example of the fact that, no, you don't get to have funny idea about Crests.

Admittedly, the knights could have been overestimating themselves. That being said, elite groups could also potentially not be that much of a downside. Medieval armies often weren't actually that big, and one of the reason knights lasted that long was, welp, because they were just that more effictive than drafted levies. Question then become just how much they overestimated themselves. (As an interesting PS note, they also seem to have assassins teams, if that Hubert/Shamir support is anything to go by).

Edited by Hardric62
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5 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

I began pointing out that Rhea had an army to use as a tool for her own ruling, then had to point out that, yes, this army is able to go all across Fodlan for search and destroy against the Mole People, as long as she can back this up with requests from help to the Knights in the area they are sent to.

This is the main issue. You are assuming that she has free reign over Fodlan in terms of where she could send her knights, but from what we have seen, the Church needs permission to do so before being able to do anything. You say that I am moving goalposts, but allowing her soldiers to search all over Fodlan assumes that she can actually has control over Fodlan. The fact that TWSitD are an ancient enemy, and that people likely wouldn't believe that they have ancient technology/javelins of light would be a bigger issue for Rhea, and TWSitD knows this.

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1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

This is the main issue. You are assuming that she has free reign over Fodlan in terms of where she could send her knights, but from what we have seen, the Church needs permission to do so before being able to do anything. You say that I am moving goalposts, but allowing her soldiers to search all over Fodlan assumes that she can actually has control over Fodlan. The fact that TWSitD are an ancient enemy, and that people likely wouldn't believe that they have ancient technology/javelins of light would be a bigger issue for Rhea, and TWSitD knows this.

' I began pointing out that Rhea had an army to use as a tool for her own ruling, then had to point out that, yes, this army is able to go all across Fodlan for search and destroy against the Mole People, as long as she can back this up with requests from help to the Knights in the area they are sent to. '

 

See the bolded part of my precedent quote? She doesn't have to tell the Knights are hunting for Mole People, heck most of the Knights don't even need to know they're hunting Mole People. They just have to do their usual work of bandit/whatever threat-squashing, and if for some reason, she suspects the Mole People are around, not just their hideout, but that they are involved, she hides some agents inside the group with what they need to know, as 'scouts', and if/when they spot Mole People, they point the knights towards the strange spooky people with a skin as white as a corpse, clearly aggressive, and who keeps ranting about other humans being beasts while keeping these Demonic Beasts around them.

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8 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

 

Well, the paralogues and the like do paint a picture of rampant banditry, that the nobles are unable to keep under control, when they are not joining the fray themselves (Felix, Sylvain and Ignatz/Raphael's paralogue). So, all happening? Maybe not, but I do think they have at least some reflection in the lore. Like you said, mercs are booked over, that usually means the situation is bad, and traditional autorities are unable to fix it.

Well, my point evolved because MrPerson0 keeps moving the goalposts. I began pointing out that Rhea had an army to use as a tool for her own ruling, then had to point out that, yes, this army is able to go all across Fodlan for search and destroy against the Mole People, as long as she can back this up with requests from help to the Knights in the area they are sent to. Back to the overthrowing lords? Welp, I was more envisioning something like that Rhea could have done when the Crest System began to go toxic:

-One lord begins to have funny ideas about Crests and divine right to rule.

-Rhea uses her position as well, archbishop to condamn that duck, calling back to the fall of Nemesis and the likes, to kill that sort of idea.

-If one lord keeps pushing? Using that moral authority to condamn them further, plus some diplomacy with the Emperor (I am talking about niping that idea in the bud, so probably back when it is the Empire only),  to just send her army to remove the offending noble after singling him out thhrough these condamnations (Lonato's fate show that at this scale at least, it is possible). The Emperor should not mind too much, since that would mean he remains the only noble having direct sanction from the Church to rule (archbishop as 'witness' of each new crowining).

-Poor sod who got removed becomes an example of the fact that, no, you don't get to have funny idea about Crests.

Admittedly, the knights could have been overestimating themselves. That being said, elite groups could also potentially not be that much of a downside. Medieval armies often weren't actually that big, and one of the reason knights lasted that long was, welp, because they were just that more effictive than drafted levies. Question then become just how much they overestimated themselves. (As an interesting PS note, they also seem to have assassins teams, if that Hubert/Shamir support is anything to go by).

Well the thing with the divine right to rule comes from Rhea herself. We dont know exactly why she decided to put her old enemy in charge of vast amount of lands and cement their authority (maybe the dlc will tackle these questions) but the most convincing theory is that her forces were just tired of war and she needed somehow to achieve peace fast. Therefore she needed to offer the remaining leaders of the enemy faction a really good reason to lay down weapons. And including them into the new ruling body seemed to her answer for that (something that happened in medieval europe also a few times btw).

After that she could not easily go back without risking another war. And while the actions of the nobles reveal them to be human trash what have they actually done to blame them?

Not loving their children if they dont have crests. Forcing them to marry based on crests. Mistreading them to make them obidient. Belittling them if they dont have crest. And more in the same region.

All things that -as mentioned- show their ugly faces. But what of that is really a reason to wage war over? Most of it wasnt even illegal in our world a few hundred years ago and it certainly dont seem to be in fodlan. The only thing that may be an argument is the human experimentation and sacrifing of the TWSiTD. But it seems that almost no one knew about it and the victims (and the church) had zero proof for any it.

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10 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

' I began pointing out that Rhea had an army to use as a tool for her own ruling, then had to point out that, yes, this army is able to go all across Fodlan for search and destroy against the Mole People, as long as she can back this up with requests from help to the Knights in the area they are sent to. '

 

See the bolded part of my precedent quote? She doesn't have to tell the Knights are hunting for Mole People, heck most of the Knights don't even need to know they're hunting Mole People. They just have to do their usual work of bandit/whatever threat-squashing, and if for some reason, she suspects the Mole People are around, not just their hideout, but that they are involved, she hides some agents inside the group with what they need to know, as 'scouts', and if/when they spot Mole People, they point the knights towards the strange spooky people with a skin as white as a corpse, clearly aggressive, and who keeps ranting about other humans being beasts while keeping these Demonic Beasts around them. 

It's a big assumption that she would be able to do that, especially when it's very likely that TWSitD were scattered all around Fodlan (I doubt that they were doing nothing for 1,000 years). They, or even the ten elites she apparently made peace with (back then, after the war of heroes) might not be happy with them crossing into their lands for things they could take care of (either on their own, or hiring other mercenaries), which would work against her.

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8 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

It's a big assumption that she would be able to do that, especially when it's very likely that TWSitD were scattered all around Fodlan (I doubt that they were doing nothing for 1,000 years). They, or even the ten elites she apparently made peace with (back then, after the war of heroes) might not be happy with them crossing into their lands for things they could take care of (either on their own, or hiring other mercenaries), which would work against her.

Again with moving the goalposts? The game already established that the Knights are pretty much deploying all across Fodlan. They didn't get the reputation they got for collecting bottle caps, you know? Besides, what is so unacceptable about doing things like searching for bandits camps, magic beasts, or whatever plausible cover excuse to do these searches?

 

8 hours ago, Nihilem said:

Well the thing with the divine right to rule comes from Rhea herself. We dont know exactly why she decided to put her old enemy in charge of vast amount of lands and cement their authority (maybe the dlc will tackle these questions) but the most convincing theory is that her forces were just tired of war and she needed somehow to achieve peace fast. Therefore she needed to offer the remaining leaders of the enemy faction a really good reason to lay down weapons. And including them into the new ruling body seemed to her answer for that (something that happened in medieval europe also a few times btw).

After that she could not easily go back without risking another war. And while the actions of the nobles reveal them to be human trash what have they actually done to blame them?

Not loving their children if they dont have crests. Forcing them to marry based on crests. Mistreading them to make them obidient. Belittling them if they dont have crest. And more in the same region.

All things that -as mentioned- show their ugly faces. But what of that is really a reason to wage war over? Most of it wasnt even illegal in our world a few hundred years ago and it certainly dont seem to be in fodlan. The only thing that may be an argument is the human experimentation and sacrifing of the TWSiTD. But it seems that almost no one knew about it and the victims (and the church) had zero proof for any it.

 

Well, not exactly. Her holy book does present the Crests as the Goddess' gifts, but is also talking about how greed made these heroes fall, and make the goddess turn her gaze away from Fodlan. That, and Nemesis is a pretty perfect ur-example of 'Bad Crest Bearer'. And in theory, there is a whole commandment for 'Don't abuse your power'. Lack of luck, when nobles build the argument for 'divine right to rule', they do what people with holy books: they cherry pick, keeping the Goddess' favor part, and likely 'forgetting' the other ones. Or at best doing thins like 'Abusing Crests, me? Look at Nemesis, the Bad Crest Bearer. The Church literaly took arms to remove him. They are not condamning me/taking arms against me. Clearly it means what I'm doing is acceptable, and henceforth blessed by the Goddess'. Circular thinking, fallacious, but there is that. Rhea didn't seem in any hurry to actualy apply the relevant parts of her holy book. And complicity by inaction is a thing.

And the gaming to get the Crests, while despicable, is just one part of the problem. You have a social class which has been told for one thousand years 'Thanks to this tangible proof of the Goddess' favor, you have a divine right to rule', with Crestless nobles likely settling for the next best thing by arguing that they act under the rulership of blessed nobles, surely it counts for something. One thousand years of that mindset can breed some serious... Entitlement, to say the least. And with it comes the potential for abuse against the population, corruption... And actually, increasing desperation to get the dang Crests, because now they have the sold the idea that they are divine favor, if they disappear, then 'clearly' it is a sign they lost that divine favor for the wider population, and are not fit to rule... I smell revolts incoming.

And yet the Church still sat without issuing even a condamnation for these things, putting that moral authority to actual use before the situation was too wide-spread to be dealt with. And well, I do think an interpretation of 'debasing the Goddess' gifts with crass politics and odious behavior' could have been pushed. It's not the things you mentioned, but the medieval Church did took a quite adamant stance against consanguinity within the nobility in the real world, and they tried their damnest to apply it during most of the Middle Ages. Surely Rhea could have at least tried something rather than watch it all go down the drain?

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6 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Again with moving the goalposts? The game already established that the Knights are pretty much deploying all across Fodlan. They didn't get the reputation they got for collecting bottle caps, you know? Besides, what is so unacceptable about doing things like searching for bandits camps, magic beasts, or whatever plausible cover excuse to do these searches?

Suggesting once again that I am moving the goalposts even though all the reasons you listed are likely hired jobs as well? Maybe you should realize that the bandits at Zanado were possibly an exception (with that possibly being a holy site as well).

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