About Rhea...

[Hardric62]

58 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Suggesting once again that I am moving the goalposts even though all the reasons you listed are likely hired jobs as well? Maybe you should realize that the bandits at Zanado were possibly an exception (with that possibly being a holy site as well).

 

One last time, slowly: Use. Hired Jobs. As. Excuses. For. Covert. Search. Of. Mole. People. Because. Hired. Jobs. Offer. Possibility. Of. Explaining. Action. All. Across. Fodlan.

[MrPerson0]

56 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

One last time, slowly: Use. Hired Jobs. As. Excuses. For. Covert. Search. Of. Mole. People. Because. Hired. Jobs. Offer. Possibility. Of. Explaining. Action. All. Across. Fodlan. 

Ah, yes, that would work out so well if they were found out that they were doing such a thing. Feels like you are trying to make Rhea out to be some sort of mastermind behind tactics or something.

[Hardric62]

16 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Ah, yes, that would work out so well if they were found out that they were doing such a thing. Feels like you are trying to make Rhea out to be some sort of mastermind behind tactics or something.

 

Well, what is she supposed to do exactly, leave the Mole People free to act as they desire? Oh wait, that happened, and it worked out so well too, when everything crumbled around her.

She could also, you know, tell her that her Knights are searching for other threats to make sure the job was done right. I mean, if you find a band of Mole People, at what moment did they strike you as looking as law-abidding and peaceful citizens up to no arms while taking their Totally-No-Demonic Beasts on a walk through the countryside to totally not eat peasants or something? Or, I dunno plant covert agents inside a Knights party to do that secretly, and go for the 'Scout for bandits/threats' excuse if someone spotted, after all, scouts have to be discreet to not be spotted while investigating threats. Again, the Knights have assassins teams (Shamir/Hubert support), so what is one more covert ops team?

[Ivan Tridelan]

3 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

 

Well, what is she supposed to do exactly, leave the Mole People free to act as they desire? Oh wait, that happened, and it worked out so well too, when everything crumbled around her.

She could also, you know, tell her that her Knights are searching for other threats to make sure the job was done right. I mean, if you find a band of Mole People, at what moment did they strike you as looking as law-abidding and peaceful citizens up to no arms while taking their Totally-No-Demonic Beasts on a walk through the countryside to totally not eat peasants or something? Or, I dunno plant covert agents inside a Knights party to do that secretly, and go for the 'Scout for bandits/threats' excuse if someone spotted, after all, scouts have to be discreet to not be spotted while investigating threats. Again, the Knights have assassins teams (Shamir/Hubert support), so what is one more covert ops team?

While this isn't a bad idea, the problem I have with your point is that Rhea didn't notice that GARREG MACH, her home base, had been infiltrated by said mole people. She might know they're out there, but she has no clue how to find them, considering they wind up camping right under her nose. What chance do a bunch of knights who aren't in the know have of finding them?

 

That being said, I agree she is complicit through inaction in regards to the nobles and their Crest obsession. While TWS would still be working in the shadows, if the system in place was much better, war would be harder to wage (you can't wage war without an army and if the people are happy with the status quo you're not going to have one). The Crest system divides people into the haves and have nots, and combine that with nobility, which does the same thing, and you have a mess with a lot of unhappy people. Confessing that she failed to stop this abuse to the 3 house leaders and asking their cooperation would probably have not avoided war altogether (TWS' plans have come too far), but it may have avoided the complete split that actually occurs (all 3 house leaders detest the Crest system to various extents, and Edelgard wages war partly because she sees Rhea as the centerpiece of the system, which she is in many ways)

[Hardric62]

20 minutes ago, Ivan Tridelan said:

While this isn't a bad idea, the problem I have with your point is that Rhea didn't notice that GARREG MACH, her home base, had been infiltrated by said mole people. She might know they're out there, but she has no clue how to find them, considering they wind up camping right under her nose. What chance do a bunch of knights who aren't in the know have of finding them?

Okay, I'll admit that I'm going in headcanon territory here, but since Rhea does know the Mole People exist and fought them the first time, that she also knows that they proped up Nemesis, and likely survived his defeat when they survived the near-total devastation of Fodlan, she had two courses of action offered:

1) Ignore them, hope they die/become irrelevant.

2) Prepare herself form some shadow war to root them out for good, like Edelgard does in Crimson FLower.

 

Given than 1) would be an idea so inasnely foolish and a display of the most epicly gross incompetence ever, I'll give Rhea some credit and consider she chose 2).

For making the link with the situation you presented, I'm going to presume she lost that shadow war. The Mole People managed to play dead convincingly enough for long enough, or offered her a decoy Shambhalla to ruin to make her think she had won so she dropped her guard, and by the time she realized they had played her in the present, it was too late. Beause again, the idea that she did nothing during one thousand years against the true culprits of her mother and people's murder, and just assumed they would stop after Nemesis' fall to bring ruin to Fodlan, or were too dead to do it despite surviving a far more punishing defeat, is a way of thinking so grossly stupid that I refuse to consider she could have followed it.

[Wuzzy]

5 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Okay, I'll admit that I'm going in headcanon territory here, but since Rhea does know the Mole People exist and fought them the first time, that she also knows that they proped up Nemesis, and likely survived his defeat when they survived the near-total devastation of Fodlan, she had two courses of action offered:

1) Ignore them, hope they die/become irrelevant.

2) Prepare herself form some shadow war to root them out for good, like Edelgard does in Crimson FLower.

 

Given than 1) would be an idea so inasnely foolish and a display of the most epicly gross incompetence ever, I'll give Rhea some credit and consider she chose 2).

For making the link with the situation you presented, I'm going to presume she lost that shadow war. The Mole People managed to play dead convincingly enough for long enough, or offered her a decoy Shambhalla to ruin to make her think she had won so she dropped her guard, and by the time she realized they had played her in the present, it was too late. Beause again, the idea that she did nothing during one thousand years against the true culprits of her mother and people's murder, and just assumed they would stop after Nemesis' fall to bring ruin to Fodlan, or were too dead to do it despite surviving a far more punishing defeat, is a way of thinking so grossly stupid that I refuse to consider she could have followed it.

Pretty sure Rhea never fought the Agarthans the first time, that probably was Sothis's doing. There's evidence pointing to Rhea/Seiros not being there considering, Rhea says something about how she was a child when she heard the screams in the Holy Tomb in Part 1 I believe (referencing Nemesis invading the Holy Tomb, Zanado is near Garreg Mach so it isn't too far away from the Holy Tomb), she has a WTF reaction when you say Sothis looked like a child (She says in GD info dump that Sothis descended as a dragon but took human form) so I wouldn't be surprised if she never actually saw Sothis since Sothis was hibernating and everyone else was in Zanado or elsewhere, and I believe she was the last child of Sothis (I think she brings this up in SS route). Rhea also mentions how she wanted to gather the remaining children were scattered across Fodlan to battle Seiros (which probably means Seteth/Flayn were somewhere else, most likely the coastal area in their paralogue and they talk about fish and fishing a lot, we know Indech/Macuil wanted to be by themselves based on their paralogues and also in Bernie/Seteth support) and she says that she was the only survivor in Zanado. So Seteth probably didn't know anything, and Flayn was probably still a child too or wasn't even born yet.

She also admits to knowing a group was plotting against her but, doesn't know who said group was until probably Solon revealed himself to everyone. Seteth even mentions there was a large investigation in the SS info dump to find out who said group was, which could've been the same investigation Rhea/Seteth/Shamir were talking about in the beginning of the game where you first see Shamir.

Also yikes, using headcannon to boost your argument.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Lunarly

[Hardric62]

1 hour ago, Lunarly said:

 

She also admits to knowing a group was plotting against her but, doesn't know who said group was until probably Solon revealed himself to everyone. Seteth even mentions there was a large investigation in the SS info dump to find out who said group was, which could've been the same investigation Rhea/Seteth/Shamir were talking about in the beginning of the game where you first see Shamir.

Also yikes, using headcannon to boost your argument.

 

Well, That would be why I acknowleged it out loud, and I tried to make it a bare minimum, as in 'basic logic', where you do not let known enemies free reign in the shadows to destroy the society you're trying to build. Or that make Rhea so insanely incompetent and stupid it hurts.

Also, from the way she talked about knowing the Mole People were the group proping up Nemesis for his slaughter of the Nabateans when she is freed in Verdant WInd/Silver Snow, and her elaboration after Shambhalla is razed in Verdant Wind, where she very much paints the Mole People as the descendants of these people who got the obliteration treatment when they rose against Sothis... Yup, she totally knew about their existence, and the fact that they survived Mama's anger to make Nemesis the threat he was. If they could survive the devastation she described, I do think it is rather elementary logic to assume that they would survive a mere military defeat of their cronies, and try to locate them to make sure they never try a stunt like that ever again.

[LilyRose]

On 11/1/2019 at 7:44 PM, Hardric62 said:

 

Well, That would be why I acknowleged it out loud, and I tried to make it a bare minimum, as in 'basic logic', where you do not let known enemies free reign in the shadows to destroy the society you're trying to build. Or that make Rhea so insanely incompetent and stupid it hurts.

Also, from the way she talked about knowing the Mole People were the group proping up Nemesis for his slaughter of the Nabateans when she is freed in Verdant WInd/Silver Snow, and her elaboration after Shambhalla is razed in Verdant Wind, where she very much paints the Mole People as the descendants of these people who got the obliteration treatment when they rose against Sothis... Yup, she totally knew about their existence, and the fact that they survived Mama's anger to make Nemesis the threat he was. If they could survive the devastation she described, I do think it is rather elementary logic to assume that they would survive a mere military defeat of their cronies, and try to locate them to make sure they never try a stunt like that ever again.

But she didn't know any of this. That is clearly stated by both Rhea and Seteth after she is rescued in SS. They knew that murdering Sothis (even a slumbering Sothis) and then returning to murder most of her children in Zanado was beyond the capability of a simple bandit but they didn't know who helped him. There was an investigation at the time that yielded no results. All that they knew was that there were people out there who violently opposed them but that's not a lot to go on when the people in question are "shapeshifters" who literally live under the ground. Sure, Rhea is able to deduce that the technologically advanced freaks who live in Shambhala and hate Sothis are the remnants of the people who Sothis fought in the past but that's after the fact deduction based on Hubert's letter, going to their city and then fighting them face to face.

I admit that a lot of the Agarthan backstory makes no sense and is poorly written but the game is pretty clear about the Nabateans being clueless about their longstanding enemies until they receive help from Hubert. Nothing was explained very well and most of what was explained doesn't make sense because it's just bad writing, but that part of the story is clear. I guess long story short, the writing is terrible in vast parts of this game, it’s something that I ignored during the honeymoon phase but after spending the last month & over 200+ hours with a much better written game it has been extremely difficult getting back into 3H to finish my maddening run.

[MoralityGames]

Rhea pros: 

(a) brought law and order back to a post-apocalyptic Dark Ages world, ushering in nearly a 1000 years of peace and creating a stable society that can defend itself from external invasions of neighboring countries

(b) is a generally calm and compassionate person who does everything in her power to help those in trouble, including people who don't actively believe in the Goddess like Shamir 

(c) doesn't approve of the way the nobility runs over people and wishes the world was a kinder place 

(d) is pretty merciful toward human beings and understanding of human weaknesses overall considering her crushing, overwhelming power and what humans did to her mother/people 

Rhea cons: 

(a) makes up (and enforces via religious doctrine and the armed might of the Knights of Seiros) lies about Crests so that people will respect them more and keep the peace alive; one consequence of this is that Fodlan has become a somewhat stagnant (little change for the better, just sort of getting by) and oppressive society (keeping people who lack Crests or nobility down, foreigners, etc) 

(b) is tolerant and kind toward people who don't believe in the Goddess or her religion, but fights and kills them if they try to enforce their point of view politically (expanded lore found in books specify she has fought the Empire when they renounced or drove away the Church of Seiros from their lands). She allows non-believers to exist, but not to oppose her orthodoxy or Church's influence in Fodlan. Bear in mind she does even though she knows many of the scriptures of her Church are lies (especially ones that have bad consequences for society) and admits as much during her S-Support in Silver Snow (where she becomes the best possible version of herself). 

(c) tolerates the nobility despite disliking their actions and doesn't admit she is lying about the Crests being signs of divine favor from the Goddess. She wishes the world was a kinder place, but not enough that she will stop asserting the dogma that encourages other people to make it into an unkind one (rather, she wishes human beings would change, become better people, and make her dogma come true). She doesn't really have a right to do this (ergo, utilize her position of spiritual authority to misinform people about what their values should be and what they should think about the Crests), but she sees it as the best of all possible alternatives. 

(d) prone to fits of anger that drive her into murderous frenzy, especially when challenged on issues that trigger her (concerning her mother, in particular). This is pretty evident from some of more extreme actions in various Routes, especially Crimson Flower. Again, she doesn't really have a right to do this. 

... 

Rhea is pretty much like every other faction leader in the series in that she is a combination of good and bad traits who becomes the best possible of herself if-and-only-if she gets the MC's support/tutelage. If she doesn't get that support/tutelage, she never seriously realizes her flaws or tries to address the bad consequences of her choices. 

It is pretty obvious from context that Rhea thinks the bad parts of her reign (the things Edelgard wants to go to war over) are a fair price to pay in exchange for a 1000 years of peace. After all, if human beings can't even use the Crests morally and responsibly, then why would they be up to the freedoms offered to them in Edelgard's world? They would just create another society like THSITD and nuke the world again, only this time without Sothis around to pick things up. 

Her basic sin is that she is completely unwilling to abandon the system she has created to save the world even if the people enforcing that system are abusing it to enrich themselves to the detriment of others. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by MoralityGames

[MrPerson0]

19 hours ago, MoralityGames said:

(expanded lore found in books specify she has fought the Empire when they renounced or drove away the Church of Seiros from their lands).

Which book are you referring to?

[PuxtBuck]

On 11/4/2019 at 5:51 PM, MoralityGames said:

Rhea is pretty much like every other faction leader in the series in that she is a combination of good and bad traits who becomes the best possible of herself if-and-only-if she gets the MC's support/tutelage. If she doesn't get that support/tutelage, she never seriously realizes her flaws or tries to address the bad consequences of her choices. 

Her basic sin is that she is completely unwilling to abandon the system she has created to save the world even if the people enforcing that system are abusing it to enrich themselves to the detriment of others. 

 

MoralityGames pros:

Succinctly summarizes an argument that took me like 25 minutes to read without any real world religious bias.

MoralityGames cons:

I couldn’t think of more about pros for them.