Jump to content

Recommended Posts

So as we all know, Rhea, or Seiros as she is truly called, built the church of Seiros from the ground up naming herself as Archbishop (under an alias of course).  The Church of Seiros has been going on for almost 1000+ years since the game starts, and Rhea herself has been there the whole time serving as Archbishop.

What I’m wondering is: how did practically no one get suspicious that the same woman was the Archbishop for all this time?  Or perhaps did she go under many aliases and fake those Archbishop’s deaths, appointing herself as the new one each time?  We know approximately how old Jeralt is, and how long he’s known Rhea, but even he would not get the least bit skeptical for how long she’s been serving?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The internet doesn't exist" is the answer, basically. Tracking a pattern would be very difficult to do for anyone who isn't a priest or knight in Garreg Mach, and it's well established how blindly loyal Rhea's followers are. Jeralt was in the best position to figure Rhea out but he didn't get to the point of suspecting her of anything until his wife's death.

Add on the fact that the church actively burns historical records and violently suppresses people who question Rhea's authority and it'd be pretty hard for anyone to realize that they've had the same pope for a millennium.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not a secret that Crest can lengthen lifespan as the War of Heroes laster more than a century. The fact that Rhea has the Crest of Seiros probably isn't either, even if she never bothered to change identity people would just assume that her Crest kept her alive for so long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i mean flayn doesn't change a bit in 5 years but no one ever mentions it, so eh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

and violently suppresses people who question Rhea's authority and it'd be pretty hard for anyone to realize that they've had the same pope for a millennium.

The game actually never says that, both time church react with violence were after opposing force declared their intention to kill Rhea first. Otherwise church rarely react to challenges. In fact in Rhea and Ashe paralogue, Church just handed pile of Lornato’s paper to Ashe without even checking them first.

Edited by Timlugia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Arachnofiend said:

violently suppresses people who question Rhea's authority

Don't think we have ever seen a case of that happen in the game. The only people they kill is those who are out to harm her/the church/students.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Don't think we have ever seen a case of that happen in the game. The only people they kill is those who are out to harm her/the church/students.

 

4 hours ago, Timlugia said:

The game actually never says that, both time church react with violence were after opposing force declared their intention to kill Rhea first. Otherwise church rarely react to challenges. In fact in Rhea and Ashe paralogue, Church just handed pile of Lornato’s paper to Ashe without even checking them first.

It's only implied from Lonato's rebellion when Rhea states part of the reason of sending the students is for them to see "how foolish it is to turn their swords against the church", which is clearly a ploy to get everyone to fear the church (aka: her), and continue her rule by said fear. Also they do execute the 'heretics' from the Western Church without even diving into WHY they did it. Before they're executed the traitors say someone else was behind it and instead of questioning it further, Rhea quickly says they're lying and kills them, which we found out later they weren't lying at all. So yes, those people did question her authority and yes they were violently suppressed, and clearly it's not the first time it's happened, as evidenced by Catherine saying she'll continue to kill for Rhea, meaning she's done it plenty of times in the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

"how foolish it is to turn their swords against the church", which is clearly a ploy to get everyone to fear the church (aka: her), and continue her rule by said fear.

"Turning their swords against the church" = attacking them. Not speaking out against them.

6 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

Also they do execute the 'heretics' from the Western Church without even diving into WHY they did it. Before they're executed the traitors say someone else was behind it and instead of questioning it further, Rhea quickly says they're lying and kills them

Sure, they say that, but they quickly go back to saying Rhea is evil and that she should be killed, which is likely what they wanted to do anyway. They were really no different from killing bandits who are willing to hurt civilians/the main characters.

6 minutes ago, Kiran_ said:

clearly it's not the first time it's happened, as evidenced by Catherine saying she'll continue to kill for Rhea, meaning she's done it plenty of times in the past. 

And this only happens if someone tries to kill Rhea first. Once again, no evidence points to a simple dispute/disagreement = death in this game. It's pretty obvious to the point that

Spoiler

Catherine would struggle with being told to set a city full of innocents on fire since Rhea has clearly gone insane at that point.

Also,

Spoiler

even Edelgard's view of the confrontation between Nemesis and Seiros being "a simple dispute" was obviously wrong.

 

Edited by MrPerson0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

"Turning their swords against the church" = attacking them. Not speaking out against them.

Sure, they say that, but they quickly go back to saying Rhea is evil and that she should be killed, which is likely what they wanted to do anyway. They were really no different from killing bandits who are willing to hurt civilians/the main characters.

And this only happens if someone tries to kill Rhea first. Once again, no evidence points to a simple dispute/disagreement = death in this game. It's pretty obvious to the point that

  Hide contents

Catherine would struggle with being told to set a city full of innocents on fire since Rhea has clearly gone insane at that point.

Also,

  Hide contents

even Edelgard's view of the confrontation between Nemesis and Seiros being "a simple dispute" was obviously wrong.

 

 In this world, Im pretty sure that speaking out against the church js the same as turning their swords against it. Talking doesn't seem to be anyone’s strong suit. Haha.

I‘m not saying killing them was wrong. Im saying she also did it to suppress any truth they might have had. It makes no logical sense to execute that blindly. 

And nobody said a simple dispute. You just said there was no evidence of violent suppression in the past and I'm pointing out there WAS. There’s no evidence of WHAT the suppression was about or what caused it. So you can't say it “only happens if someone tries to kill Rhea first” because there’s no evidence either way. Just that there's been violence in the past.

Furthermore, Catherine still does it, so that would also suggest she‘s done things in the past as well.

Also, what does Edelgard’s wrong view have to do with anything??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

And nobody said a simple dispute. You just said there was no evidence of violent suppression in the past and I'm pointing out there WAS. There’s no evidence of WHAT the suppression was about or what caused it. So you can't say it “only happens if someone tries to kill Rhea first” because there’s no evidence either way. Just that there's been violence in the past.

Ah? Isn't it pretty clear in the Ashe's paralouge and support?

Spoiler

Slither got Lornato's son Christopher to assassinate Rhea, he was caught and killed when Cassandra (Catherine) reported him. Church tried to cover up Slither involvement to prevent a general panic so they labeled Christopher as Duscar rebel instead. Cassandra was labeled as a traitor and had to flee, changing her name to Catherine as result.

Spoiler

Lornato didn't buy the story so he hold disgruntle at Rhea, believing Christopher was innocent (which he wasn't) and in turn became a Slither agent. Slither sent him in a suicide attack that was countered by player and kills Lornato, only to serve the purpose to distract church defense and incriminated West Church

 

Edited by Timlugia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

 In this world, Im pretty sure that speaking out against the church js the same as turning their swords against it. Talking doesn't seem to be anyone’s strong suit. Haha.

Unless you have any actual cases of this happening, no, they are not the same.

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

Im saying she also did it to suppress any truth they might have had. It makes no logical sense to execute that blindly. 

It makes sense because they were willing to kill Rhea and the students. At this point, they were no different from the bandits that we normally kill in the FE games.

7 hours ago, Kiran_ said:

You just said there was no evidence of violent suppression in the past and I'm pointing out there WAS.

But you haven't pointed out what this exactly was. Catherine saying "she'll kill for Rhea" could easily mean defending her whenever she is in trouble.

The reason I brought up Edelgard's words were because you were trying to make it seem "a simple dispute" = death (more or less), which were

Spoiler

the exact words that Edelgard used to describe the fight between Seiros and Nemesis.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

It makes sense because they were willing to kill Rhea and the students. At this point, they were no different from the bandits that we normally kill in the FE games. 

 

And yet most of the students who fought them, and killed most of their buddies, are still unnerved when Rhea decides to execute the survivors. That doesn't exactly scream 'swift executions are par of the course' in Fodlan to me.

 

7 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Unless you have any actual cases of this happening, no, they are not the same.

 

Claude's supports with Lorenz and Leonie. In both of them, he gets warned by his friends that he should keep a lid on his idea that nature, not the goddess, is responsible for fertility, because it would be grounds for heresy. That doesn't seem like the sort of environment when outspoken contestation is allowed to exist.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Friendly reminder that Seteth burns books that are inconvenient for the Central Church's politics and version of history. How many smaller acts of rebellion have simply been washed away from history before we got to the point that people decided assassination is the only option?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arachnofiend said:

Friendly reminder that Seteth burns books that are inconvenient for the Central Church's politics and version of history. How many smaller acts of rebellion have simply been washed away from history before we got to the point that people decided assassination is the only option?

This is actually a very strange event if you think about it. He confiscated a picture of Immaculate One when the drawing of her is displayed in the Cathedral, and from narrator the existence of Immaculate One isn't a secret but part of founding myth of the Empire. (Farmer got married frame)

Like why would Seteth need to confiscate it to begin with?

 

On the other hand we know there are different level of "clearance" in the church, for example student were not allowed to access the name of nobility in the library for unknown reasons.

Edited by Timlugia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Rhea often had periods of hibernation when her current persona started showing suspicious longevity. Thomas says that aside from the archbishop that there are also a group of cardinals ruling the church who's identity are a complete mystery. So I assume Rhea often ''died'' and became one of those cardinals who reign behind close doors. Once everyone who knew her has passed on she steps out of the shadows again and gets ''promoted'' from cardinal to archbishop to start the cycle all over again. She reigns for a few decades, she ''dies'', becomes a cardinal and then she becomes the Archbishop again.

Edited by Etrurian emperor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

And yet most of the students who fought them, and killed most of their buddies, are still unnerved when Rhea decides to execute the survivors. That doesn't exactly scream 'swift executions are par of the course' in Fodlan to me. 

These are the same students who still believed that the Western Church members didn't want to kill Rhea (even though one of the captured members outright said they were trying to), and, just a couple of months ago, started killing for the first time (for most of them at least). Then, there are those like Ashe who are pretty biased in the situation.

6 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Claude's supports with Lorenz and Leonie. In both of them, he gets warned by his friends that he should keep a lid on his idea that nature, not the goddess, is responsible for fertility, because it would be grounds for heresy. That doesn't seem like the sort of environment when outspoken contestation is allowed to exist.

Not really the same as "violent suppression", especially when there are people like Cyril and Shamir who are willingly open to admit that they are not believers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Not really the same as "violent suppression", especially when there are people like Cyril and Shamir who are willingly open to admit that they are not believers.

 

There is some slight problems with the 'But... Cyril! Shamir!' argument:

1) Rhea's opinion is clearly not the wider one inside the Church and society. And given the warm opinion on Dedue for being from Duscur (and yes, I know, assassination plus genocide... except this sort of escalation generally has to be built on a sizeable amount of less obvious at first glance resentment to happen), I have... doubts about how the rest of the Church and society sees them (friendly reminder that Claude supports also point out that foreigners are seen as 'beasts' in Fodlan). I also recall that the Church is noted in epilogues to be reformed toward a more tolerant stance, which means there was some intolerance before for this to happen. Heck, Catherine's support with Shamir does not hint at a wider tolerance for that type of stance either.

 

2) Direct service of Rhea for both of them has to buy them some tolerance... But, welp, it does not necessarily translate into wider tolerance. Heck, the Crusades and the Reconquista both saw either side involved going for mercs from other confessions, and the tolerance wasn't that good both during the hotter phases of these conflicts, or in the aftermath.

 

And beyond that:

1) It's pretty much the costs of 'doing business'. Rhea rules a religion professing about an omniscient, omnipotent goddess, aka a Catholic expy, down to most of the titles used. These religions are generally quite intolerant because, welp, they preach as if they wre absolute truth, they can hardly tolerate 'competition' without reneging on their own creed. Especially here in Fodlan, where the Mole Men can use that to foster troubles (see Solon happily offering Claude 'forbidden informations'', they clearly know how to use that type of moves). And in both her supports and tea conversations, she does not hide she sees the Church as Fodlan's peacekeeper, her mean of enforcing peace and order on the continent. It's harder to do when you are not the unquestioned moral authority.

2)Also, between the warnings of heresy, and the active suppression of forbidden knowledge... Forgive me if it does look like Claude is in for more trouble than a stern lecture when this kind of warning is used.

 

6 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

These are the same students who still believed that the Western Church members didn't want to kill Rhea (even though one of the captured members outright said they were trying to), and, just a couple of months ago, started killing for the first time (for most of them at least). Then, there are those like Ashe who are pretty biased in the situation.

 

1) Like you said, they just said it, pretty much to their face. Could we please not take the students for complete and utter morons please? I dare think these 'denials' were more in the lines 'just how fucked up is that duck' that outright negations of reality.

2) People often say 'Rhea is a medieval leader, she gets to do that'... While it is actually a bit more delicate than that in reality, there is the fact Fodlan is a more violent society than modern times, so I will go out on a limb and assume that violent punishments for crimes are more wide-spread. And point out the fact than more often than not, medieval executions did end up as impromptu spectacle for the population. And the students are still unerved. I guess you can call it personal interpretation, but I don't get the idea that this sort of execution is all normal to them from that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Friendly reminder: Shamir says after you kill Solon "People who live an inordinately long time, people whose hair changes color, and these odd Heroes' Relics. Is Fodlan some kind of mystical land filled with inhuman creatures?"

 

So clearly, it's noticed that SOMEBODY is living a much longer than normal lifespan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

1) Rhea's opinion is clearly not the wider one inside the Church and society.

Sure, but we are talking about Rhea in this topic, and once again, I do not think there has been any cases of her killing people for questioning the religion. Also, in the case of Claude, should also note that he didn't just question the religion, he was suggesting that Rhea should be permanently removed from power, which anyone could take away as killing her, which looks pretty bad on him.

As for the books, that isn't limited to info on the Church. Apparently students aren't allowed to look up info about nobles (which is why Dimitri had to sneak in late into the night to do so). We don't know if this is something they only do with students.

 

10 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Could we please not take the students for complete and utter morons please?

Why not? They are kids who lived sheltered lives (most of them at least), and assumed that they cracked a big case and whatnot.

As for severity of crimes, it's not just this game, but Fire Emblem in general. It's not like we don't go around killing bandits instead of arresting them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Why not? They are kids who lived sheltered lives (most of them at least), and assumed that they cracked a big case and whatnot. 

 

*Look at Edelgard, Hubert, Petra, Dorothea, Bernadetta, Dimitri, Dedue, Felix, Ingrid, Sylvain, Ashe, Mercedes, Claude, Ignatz, Raphael, Lysitheia, Marianne, Leonie's backstories, both the bad and the close calls.*

 

You  have a strange definition of sheltered.

 

32 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Sure, but we are talking about Rhea in this topic, and once again, I do not think there has been any cases of her killing people for questioning the religion. Also, in the case of Claude, should also note that he didn't just question the religion, he was suggesting that Rhea should be permanently removed from power, which anyone could take away as killing her, which looks pretty bad on him. 

As for the books, that isn't limited to info on the Church. Apparently students aren't allowed to look up info about nobles (which is why Dimitri had to sneak in late into the night to do so). We don't know if this is something they only do with students.

 

1) Well, it is her Church, her moral authority shaping a society, and she doesn't seem to have expanded that much effort on fixing that mess.

Also, okay, it didn't happen in canon but... She would have to do that sort of things over these one thousand years, because these things would challenge the authority she needs to play peacekeeper and supreme moral authority on the continent. Monotheistic religions don't take kindly to competition, especially when there is a malicious outside group dedicated to ruin it all known by the surpeme echelon of the church's hierarchy.

I was also talking about Claude's support in general, not just the Church when I was mentioning the 'beasts' issue. And I spotted quite a few discussions involving the Japanese versions of the texts saying he was actually willing to go that far if needed. Does it look bad? Probably, but welp, Rhea couldn't be assed from pushing for preaching more tolerance so far, or nip in the bud the obsession on Crests before it went toxic (her holy book paints them as divine favor, and she is the immortal who would get to see the society evolve around that idea, it's squarely on her head), and if she was doing things so well, the Mole People wouldn't have got their hooks on two kingdoms of Fodlan out of three and sparked a continent-wide war. You generally want to remove rulers who haven't been up to the task, and Rhea is only willing to budge here in exceptional circumstances which materialized through insane chance and others characters couldn't have known about without reading the script. It only leave so many ways of removing her of power if she doesn't want to.

 

2) Yes, but the ones which get the removal treatment are the ones about the sensitive data about the parts fo history Rhea is censuring. And given Garreg Mach's position in Fodlan, I expect it to be a quite important center of learning for scholars too (eh, Hanneman moved here fo his studies for a reason). Looks pretty obvious to me than other people than the students will be concerned with this censure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

*Look at Edelgard, Hubert, Petra, Dorothea, Bernadetta, Dimitri, Dedue, Felix, Ingrid, Sylvain, Ashe, Mercedes, Claude, Ignatz, Raphael, Lysitheia, Marianne, Leonie's backstories, both the bad and the close calls.* 

True, they might not all be sheltered, but a good amount of them were hypocritical in this case. Only Ingrid, Ashe, Mercedes, Raphael, Lysithea, Marianne, Caspar, Bernadetta, and Dorothea spoke their views about the killings. Mercedes and Marianne seem to suggest that it was needed due to how the Church works, Dorothea asks you if you agree with these actions, and the others are shocked by it. Ashe, as I said before, is obviously biased toward the whole situation, and as for the others, they have no qualms with killing bandits (save for Dorothea).

2 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Probably, but welp, Rhea couldn't be assed from pushing for preaching more tolerance so far, or nip in the bud the obsession on Crests before it went toxic

For all we know, if Edelgard didn't go to war, she could have tried to talk to the other leaders about what to do for the future. It seems most were open to change, especially with Rhea being ready to hand over the Church to Byleth.

2 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

(her holy book paints them as divine favor, and she is the immortal who would get to see the society evolve around that idea, it's squarely on her head)

The holy book also speaks about how the Goddess hates the nobles for abusing the power of the crests and relics, and yet, the nobles never follow this. It should be obvious that nobles will only look out for themselves. Just because she is immortal doesn't mean she has actual control/power over every living being in Fodlan. After all, the Church it seems the Church helps those who requests for it, and it seems to stay out of others' affairs (unless they are attacked of course). Also, the fact that she allowed Hanneman to continue his studies makes it seem that she was open to alternative means of usage for the crests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

For all we know, if Edelgard didn't go to war, she could have tried to talk to the other leaders about what to do for the future. It seems most were open to change, especially with Rhea being ready to hand over the Church to Byleth.

Um, no? Rhea's entire reason for doing everything she's done for the last thousand years is to revive Sothis, the one person she sees as having the wisdom to rule. If Edelgard hadn't declared war, she would just keep trying to get Sothis to take control over Byleth's body (reminder: Sothis' presence is the only reason Rhea cared about Byleth from the start). If and when she finally succeeded, she would turn control over to Sothis and probably as the enforcer of Mommy's will.

43 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Just because she is immortal doesn't mean she has actual control/power over every living being in Fodlan.

Given that she couldn't tell that she was being infiltrated by the Death Knight, Solon (for a few years), Kronya, and the Flame Emperor, I'd argue that not being in complete control was due to her focusing on her mission above all else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

If Edelgard hadn't declared war, she would just keep trying to get Sothis to take control over Byleth's body

Don't forget that Byleth was practically the farthest she has gotten, with them being able to unlock the full power of the SotC and whatnot. Pretty sure that once she saw that Byleth sitting on the chair didn't do anything, she would likely gave up any hope of bringing her back (in full) at that point. Just having Byleth at her side was likely enough.

As for the second point, Rhea and Seteth knew that TWSitD were out there, but they simply weren't able to find them (they gave up after searching. The only way anyone was able to find them was through tracking the  missiles, which TWSitD knew was an issue, so they haven't launched them within that time period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MrPerson0 said:

Don't forget that Byleth was practically the farthest she has gotten, with them being able to unlock the full power of the SotC and whatnot. Pretty sure that once she saw that Byleth sitting on the chair didn't do anything, she would likely gave up any hope of bringing her back (in full) at that point. Just having Byleth at her side was likely enough.

This reminds me some problem with 3H storytelling style, like why can't Rhea just asked Byleth who they are?

Especially after the fuse shouldn't there be some kind formal debrief in front of the church leadership? (with Rhea, Seteth, Flayn and cardinals)

 

"Tell us exactly what happened in the forest"

"Did you see our goddess Sothis? What did she say to you? What's her commandment?"

"Do you feel any different after she fused with you? How much memory or knowledge you gained?"

"Are you Sothis herself? If you don't consider so, how would you describe yourself?"

 

Some of these questions would immediately clear up what Rhea expects, who Byleth really is or how people react to their change.

Instead we spent whole months just wandering, and were never explained What Byleth really became even in the end of the story? How much Byleth are they? How much Sothis are they? Do they have any personality or memory change?

Edited by Timlugia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...