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Dancer on Maddening - Blue Lions


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5 minutes ago, Jakkun said:

Where does Caspar spawn on SS chapter 13? I forget lol. I think Bernie may be the best candidate for that route though, having a dancer with Pass and Movement +1 sounds like some really nice utility to have.

He and Dorothea spawn where Lorenz and Ignatz spawn in Golden Deer (and where Gilbert and Ashe spawn in Blue Lions).

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3 minutes ago, Flores Salicis said:

He and Dorothea spawn where Lorenz and Ignatz spawn in Golden Deer (and where Gilbert and Ashe spawn in Blue Lions).

I see. That's actually a pretty big boon in Caspar's favor since he's one of the first spawns on the map. Bernie could potentially be salvaged as a Falco/Bow Knight anyways so Dancer Caspar has quite a bit going for him.

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8 minutes ago, Jakkun said:

I see. That's actually a pretty big boon in Caspar's favor since he's one of the first spawns on the map. Bernie could potentially be salvaged as a Falco/Bow Knight anyways so Dancer Caspar has quite a bit going for him.

Yup.  Also why I advocate Lorenz over Raphael (your worst VW units).  Lorenz shows up super early; Raphael (in VW) and Bernie (in SS) are in that top right group that shows up super late (and is completely safe anyway).  I think Raphael never reached beyond...level 3 or 5 or something in my Golden Deer Maddening Run, so I just left him parked at his spot forever.  I haven't felt sadistic enough to do SS in Maddening, but even on Hard SS's Chapter 13 was not exactly a cake walk.  

Edited by Flores Salicis
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2 hours ago, Jakkun said:

I see. That's actually a pretty big boon in Caspar's favor since he's one of the first spawns on the map. Bernie could potentially be salvaged as a Falco/Bow Knight anyways so Dancer Caspar has quite a bit going for him.

Vengance Pegasi/Horse Bernie is pretty good actually and synergize well with her personal skill, Sniper Bernie with Hunter’s Volley isn’t half bad either just requires more investment.

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4 hours ago, Flores Salicis said:

...Who would you pick that's not a liability for a job?  Someone who can hold their own against enemies or provide other useful support in the form of healing or warping or something?  Then why are you making them a dancer in the first place?  

Again, you're going to be forced to use all your students to some extent for a couple chapters.  After that, if you've bothered with your professor level at all, you'll have adjutant slots where you can stick them to passively gain the rest of the handful of levels to raise the charm.  Unless you're in NG+ and buying support levels to instantly recruit a bunch of people to your class, there's probably not much in the way of competition for those adjutant slots.  It's not costing you anything.  By the time they become a dancer, they'll gain plenty of levels very quickly.  Although frankly, at that point, literally nothing else matters about them.  I mean, that's the point of a dancer.  Literally no stats matter.   Nothing about that character's attributes matter.

A tea party is guaranteed charm twice a month for each character as long as you hit Great or Perfect.  You only don't gain charm (assuming you hit Great/Perfect) if you've exceeded more than two tea parties.  Byleth can hit that pretty easily since they can have ton of free tea parties with everyone who has a birthday in a month, but I'm not sure how else anyone is hitting it unless you really like to spend lots of activity points having tea with the same people.  And it's not that hard to look up a tea party guide.  The one on Serenes Forest is very good!

Let's put it this way - @Jakkun stayed that Annette was good for rallying, right? Unfortunately, mages have only 4 move, and she's built toward being one. Rallies require you to be adjacent to your target. To quote Sonic, that's NO GOOD.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Let's put it this way - @Jakkun stayed that Annette was good for rallying, right? Unfortunately, mages have only 4 move, and she's built toward being one. Rallies require you to be adjacent to your target. To quote Sonic, that's NO GOOD.

Are you trying to just argue that the dancer class is no good, period?  

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8 minutes ago, Flores Salicis said:

Are you trying to just argue that the dancer class is no good, period?  

Are you trying to put words in my mouth? Because that reeks heavily of you doing so.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Are you trying to put words in my mouth? Because that reeks heavily of you doing so.

You said that a person having to be next to someone to perform a support act (rallying/dancing) is no good.  So I'm just trying to understand if what you're arguing is that the class is bad by virtue of this fact, or that it requires a specific kind of character to be capable of performing this task.

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18 minutes ago, Flores Salicis said:

You said that a person having to be next to someone to perform a support act (rallying/dancing) is no good.  So I'm just trying to understand if what you're arguing is that the class is bad by virtue of this fact, or that it requires a specific kind of character to be capable of performing this task.

My point is that while rallies are useful, the user being unable to keep up is a problem that you must address if you have a dedicated rally user. That being said, that won't be a problem early on at least because everyone is going to have 4 move.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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54 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Let's put it this way - @Jakkun stayed that Annette was good for rallying, right? Unfortunately, mages have only 4 move, and she's built toward being one. Rallies require you to be adjacent to your target. To quote Sonic, that's NO GOOD.

 Yes, mages only have 4 move. But who said Annette has to be a mage?

Wyvern Lord Annette has 8 move and flying, and can still rally, ensuring that she'll be able to reach who she needs to. I'd go so far as to say it's her best class, and that she shouldn't bother with mage classes (unless you want to pick up Fiendish Blow).

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19 hours ago, Flores Salicis said:

...Who would you pick that's not a liability for a job?  Someone who can hold their own against enemies or provide other useful support in the form of healing or warping or something?  Then why are you making them a dancer in the first place?  

Again, you're going to be forced to use all your students to some extent for a couple chapters.  After that, if you've bothered with your professor level at all, you'll have adjutant slots where you can stick them to passively gain the rest of the handful of levels to raise the charm.  Unless you're in NG+ and buying support levels to instantly recruit a bunch of people to your class, there's probably not much in the way of competition for those adjutant slots.  It's not costing you anything.  By the time they become a dancer, they'll gain plenty of levels very quickly.  Although frankly, at that point, literally nothing else matters about them.  I mean, that's the point of a dancer.  Literally no stats matter.   Nothing about that character's attributes matter.

A tea party is guaranteed charm twice a month for each character as long as you hit Great or Perfect.  You only don't gain charm (assuming you hit Great/Perfect) if you've exceeded more than two tea parties.  Byleth can hit that pretty easily since they can have ton of free tea parties with everyone who has a birthday in a month, but I'm not sure how else anyone is hitting it unless you really like to spend lots of activity points having tea with the same people.  And it's not that hard to look up a tea party guide.  The one on Serenes Forest is very good!

Maybe a mage. I've seen a lot of complaints about mages' movement in this game. Besides, I often see Dorothea, Marianne, and Flayn recommended for dancers. Guess what they have in common. If you guessed "4 move", then you win the grand prize!

Even early on, the wheat will start to distinguish themselves from the chaff. Ergo, I'll see who can cut it, and who I'm better off cutting from the team in favour of a recruited unit from another house. Which is why I was quick to deem Raphael as a lost cause - he couldn't do anything a better unit couldn't do. I'm not going to continue to shoot myself in the foot in a vain attempt to salvage someone who is obviously a lost cause just because they're part of my house. Are you?

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Dorothea has incredibly mediocre growths in magic; she's chosen as a dancer *because* she's not a particularly good mage with utterly mediocre magic growths, bad speed, and no utility spell in Faith beyond Physic, which multiple other units can provide while providing other utility as well (including another caster in her own class).  By your own definition, she'd be a unit to cut in Black Eagles.  Flayn is also chosen because most of her Faith spell list is fairly useless until you get to Rescue/Fortify (which takes quite a while, and Rescue is far more niche than Warp and is a Mag/4 spell so....have fun investing in an otherwise bad unit to make it useful?) .  Anyone who wants  Fortify is going to get Mercedes (and probably could have recruited her before you even get Flayn, since she has the superior Faith list and better growths, so there is literally nothing Flayn really offers.....unless you make her a Dancer!  Again, literally the definition of a bad unit you don't want to invest in, which is precisely the kind of unit you want to make a Dancer! 

So that's why I don't understand why you keep talking about using a dancer to salvage a bad unit.  People *make* units a dancer precisely *because* they aren't salvageable. 

Also...the move thing is kind of irrelevant?  Dancers get 6 move.  It literally doesn't matter who you choose to be a Dancer.  They'll all wind up with 6 move.  This is not quite comparable to who is your rallybot since, rally is not tied to a class.  Hence, why I don't know anyone would leave Annette in an infantry class when she can become a wyvern rider with a bit of effort (you will have to feed her some kills, especially in the beginning, since rallying - unlike dancing - does NOT provide EXP).

Edited by Flores Salicis
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8 hours ago, Flores Salicis said:

 Hence, why I don't know anyone would leave Annette in an infantry class when she can become a wyvern rider with a bit of effort (you will have to feed her some kills, especially in the beginning, since rallying - unlike dancing - does NOT provide EXP).

Or you know, get her to lv 10 for Pegasus Knight and make her a full time rally bot? Feeding her kills to lv 20 for Wyvern while having her do the only thing that she’s actually useful at (rallying) sounds like a lot of work to me.

About Dorothea, spell list >>> growths, she doesn’t need Lysithea’s Speed and Mag to provide 10 range linked boost with Meteor, chip with Thoron from 3 range or spam heals from a distance with Physic. Also a unit only need either Physic or Warp to become a good Faith user, everything else like Rescue, Silence and Fortify are just nice add ons. 

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21 hours ago, Flores Salicis said:

Dorothea has incredibly mediocre growths in magic; she's chosen as a dancer *because* she's not a particularly good mage with utterly mediocre magic growths, bad speed, and no utility spell in Faith beyond Physic, which multiple other units can provide while providing other utility as well (including another caster in her own class).  By your own definition, she'd be a unit to cut in Black Eagles.  Flayn is also chosen because most of her Faith spell list is fairly useless until you get to Rescue/Fortify (which takes quite a while, and Rescue is far more niche than Warp and is a Mag/4 spell so....have fun investing in an otherwise bad unit to make it useful?) .  Anyone who wants  Fortify is going to get Mercedes (and probably could have recruited her before you even get Flayn, since she has the superior Faith list and better growths, so there is literally nothing Flayn really offers.....unless you make her a Dancer!  Again, literally the definition of a bad unit you don't want to invest in, which is precisely the kind of unit you want to make a Dancer! 

So that's why I don't understand why you keep talking about using a dancer to salvage a bad unit.  People *make* units a dancer precisely *because* they aren't salvageable. 

Also...the move thing is kind of irrelevant?  Dancers get 6 move.  It literally doesn't matter who you choose to be a Dancer.  They'll all wind up with 6 move.  This is not quite comparable to who is your rallybot since, rally is not tied to a class.  Hence, why I don't know anyone would leave Annette in an infantry class when she can become a wyvern rider with a bit of effort (you will have to feed her some kills, especially in the beginning, since rallying - unlike dancing - does NOT provide EXP).

Because it's not like Meteor is a thing, is it? Oh wait. Never mind the fact that she's one of the only units to get a long range spell, and the only one that doesn't have any serious issues that would discourage trying to get it (Hanneman joins much later and is slow, Manuela is weak in Reason, and Hilda is physically inclined). She also gets Physic, which apparently people here worship like it's gospel. Long story short, you shouldn't have mentioned Dorothea. Maybe then you would have had a point. All you accomplished by bringing her up is shooting yourself in the foot. My issue with making a bad unit a dancer is that you can't polish a turd. Well, that, and that I have much better things to do with my time and activity points than trying to hold tea parties with some awful male unit I don't care one bit for just to make them a dancer.

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because it's not like Meteor is a thing, is it? Oh wait. Never mind the fact that she's one of the only units to get a long range spell, and the only one that doesn't have any serious issues that would discourage trying to get it (Hanneman joins much later and is slow, Manuela is weak in Reason, and Hilda is physically inclined). She also gets Physic, which apparently people here worship like it's gospel. Long story short, you shouldn't have mentioned Dorothea. Maybe then you would have had a point. All you accomplished by bringing her up is shooting yourself in the foot. My issue with making a bad unit a dancer is that you can't polish a turd. Well, that, and that I have much better things to do with my time and activity points than trying to hold tea parties with some awful male unit I don't care one bit for just to make them a dancer.

Dorothea is easily one of the best dancer (if not the best) precisely because of meteor and physics lol

meteor gives basically your entire party linked attack bonuses when equipped, so Dorothea gets double utility, dancing AND granting extra accuracy to all of your units, no other unit can (easily) fulfill this role.

this is especially useful since by the endgame most units will have better mov than your dancer, meaning that there will be situations where your dancer would not get to be useful for a turn or so. with meteor linked attacks and physics your dancer is always relevant in the battlefield

the fact that you don't get to use Dorothea as a combat unit with 2 meteor usages instead of 1 is easily a worthy tradeoff, she is not a great combat unit. meteor won't likely orko any unit on maddening, and guess what, by dancing you get another unit to basically chip/finish off another unit instead of you meteoring in the first place !_!

 

also, you keep dismissing logical arguments presented to you with statements like "a turd is a turd!" "I have better things to do with my activity points!" (that, unless you are trying to get a severely underlevelled/charm screwed unit to be your dancer won't even be necessary in the first place)

where are YOUR arguments? who would YOU make a dancer and WHY? what do YOU use your activity points for? (besides activity points are super abbundant once you reach the midgame)

Edited by AxelVDP
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32 minutes ago, AxelVDP said:

Dorothea is easily one of the best dancer (if not the best) precisely because of meteor and physics lol

meteor gives basically your entire party linked attack bonuses when equipped, so Dorothea gets double utility, dancing AND granting extra accuracy to all of your units, no other unit can (easily) fulfill this role.

I would argue the opposite, tbh. Yes, you can use Meteor for Linked bonuses, but she can do that in any class. And if you're a dancer, you're more or less halving that spell's utility since you're never actually gonna use it for damage. Physic may as well not even be there as well, since you'd always want to be dancing, unless she's getting left behind, in which you're probably doing something wrong. Imo she's much better off as a Gremory.

Her best draw as a Dancer would be to make chapter 13 SS easier since she's one of the first spawns, but as was discussed earlier, Caspar spawns at the same time and is considerably worse as a unit, aka a prime dancer candidate.

tl;dr: Linked attacks are cool but actually using Meteor is cooler. Physic on a dancer is a waste.

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25 minutes ago, Jakkun said:

I would argue the opposite, tbh. Yes, you can use Meteor for Linked bonuses, but she can do that in any class. And if you're a dancer, you're more or less halving that spell's utility since you're never actually gonna use it for damage. Physic may as well not even be there as well, since you'd always want to be dancing, unless she's getting left behind, in which you're probably doing something wrong. Imo she's much better off as a Gremory.

Her best draw as a Dancer would be to make chapter 13 SS easier since she's one of the first spawns, but as was discussed earlier, Caspar spawns at the same time and is considerably worse as a unit, aka a prime dancer candidate.

tl;dr: Linked attacks are cool but actually using Meteor is cooler. Physic on a dancer is a waste.

I don't get why you completely ignored the rest of my post but:

if you're using gremory Dorothea that means you're actually attacking sometimes, which means not having meteor equipped thus no accuracy bonuses (yes, you can work around this because you don't always need the extra bonuses), as a dancer, this is basically never the case. (would be a non problem if you could trade magic equips like you could with weapon but alas)

Meteor will not be one hit koing enemies on maddening, you're going to use it mostly to chip away scary enemies or finish off enemies safely. both thing can be accomplished by dancing in her case, with basically the same degree of success.

Having dancer's 6 move vs gremory's 5 move means you're also extending your linked bonus range, getting more utility out of it.

and no, I don't think I'm doing something wrong if on some maps there are some turns where your dancer can't do a useful dance. your team should be composed by lots of mounted units, it's not uncommon that you should spread out your army to seize objectives quickly (the term objective is used loosely here, can mean killing some siege user, grabbing some chests, stop someone from escaping etc). a dancer simply can't keep up at all times if you're not playing to conservatively. physic access also gives you more flexibility in what strategies you can do, besides giving you an useful action while dancing would be impossible or impractical. she's not going to be your healer anyway so you're not robbing your team of an useful physic user either.

that aside, I do agree with your reasonings of using your weaker units to be dancers (even tho I might not necessarily 100% agree with your actual picks), though I feel like you're overstating the importance of chapter13

 

btw, my arguments are based on some kind of "standard" efficient play, not LTC

in a LTC setting I could see your arguments being more valid overall

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43 minutes ago, AxelVDP said:

I don't get why you completely ignored the rest of my post but:

if you're using gremory Dorothea that means you're actually attacking sometimes, which means not having meteor equipped thus no accuracy bonuses (yes, you can work around this because you don't always need the extra bonuses), as a dancer, this is basically never the case. (would be a non problem if you could trade magic equips like you could with weapon but alas)

Meteor will not be one hit koing enemies on maddening, you're going to use it mostly to chip away scary enemies or finish off enemies safely. both thing can be accomplished by dancing in her case, with basically the same degree of success.

Having dancer's 6 move vs gremory's 5 move means you're also extending your linked bonus range, getting more utility out of it.

and no, I don't think I'm doing something wrong if on some maps there are some turns where your dancer can't do a useful dance. your team should be composed by lots of mounted units, it's not uncommon that you should spread out your army to seize objectives quickly (the term objective is used loosely here, can mean killing some siege user, grabbing some chests, stop someone from escaping etc). a dancer simply can't keep up at all times if you're not playing to conservatively. physic access also gives you more flexibility in what strategies you can do, besides giving you an useful action while dancing would be impossible or impractical. she's not going to be your healer anyway so you're not robbing your team of an useful physic user either.

that aside, I do agree with your reasonings of using your weaker units to be dancers (even tho I might not necessarily 100% agree with your actual picks), though I feel like you're overstating the importance of chapter13

 

btw, my arguments are based on some kind of "standard" efficient play, not LTC

in a LTC setting I could see your arguments being more valid overall

I thought the rest of your post was in response to Shadow Mir, so I cut it off in the quote. Looks like I cut off to much though, but my initial response I believe still applies. Regardless, my b.

I mean if you want to split hairs, Gremory has 2x uses so you could use Meteor and still have one left for linked attacks. Yes, having 1 more move as a dancer is notable for the extra linked attack range, but a dancer getting left behind is more negatively impactful I'd say than a Gremory getting left behind. In both cases, they'll most likely still be able to chip with meteor or heal with physic, but as a dancer, that's still a turn where you're...not dancing.

On the first page, I made a point that having a dancer with riding proficiency (like Lorenz on VW) would be ideal if possible. This isn't something I think you need to go out of your way for, but if you can get to A+ riding on your dancer, that'll go along way to help them keep up, along with strategic use of canto on your mounted units, as well as the always broken warp. Dorothea in particular has a weakness in Riding so this option is considerably harder for her to achieve, if at all. You have quite a few options at your disposal to keep your dancers able to do their main function every turn, I'd say.

I do put a lot of stock into making chapter 13 easier, yes. It's one of the hardest maps in the game and I think having good dancer utility there would go a long way. I think you put too much stock in linked attacks, our priorities are just different in what we want from a dancer.

To me, it sounds better to have someone like Caspar (or Bernie, if you like Movement +1 and Pass) be the dancer, while Gremory Dorothea can actually use her good spell list and linked attack utility.

I don't have any experience with LTC whatsoever. I would like to do one someday, but I can only speak on what I think to be the best role for a character.

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On 11/2/2019 at 1:19 PM, link16hit said:

Dimitry also get +20 avoid if full hp, with dancer sword it's +40 avoid. + sword level 5 it's ANOTHER +20 avoid.

but yeah...Dimitry dancer lol, you lose a powerhouse 😐

But sword avoid +20 is an equip-able skill, right?  So get the skill then swap back to Lord or whatever you were doing before that...

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2 minutes ago, KelluPato said:

But sword avoid +20 is an equip-able skill, right?  So get the skill then swap back to Lord or whatever you were doing before that...

It is. But I think choosing someone you won't even use as a dancer just to get that skill is questionable, to say the least.

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I've seen a lot of arguments for using dancer as fodder for +20 sword avoid skill. I've heard people say it made that unit invincible on enemy phase as no one could hit them once they got alert stance and other evasion bossing stuff. I think you don't need that skill at all to be invincible. 

Personally I think using a real dancer is great for maddening. Making your best units move again is great. As for who to give it to. I personally like to give it to a out of house magic user with good utility spells like Dorathea, Marianne, Mercedes, Linhardt, and Flayn. I think making one of your students a dancer really kills their potential as it's likely they are the best performing magic user in your run.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/7/2019 at 9:15 PM, Jakkun said:

 Yes, mages only have 4 move. But who said Annette has to be a mage?

Wyvern Lord Annette has 8 move and flying, and can still rally, ensuring that she'll be able to reach who she needs to. I'd go so far as to say it's her best class, and that she shouldn't bother with mage classes (unless you want to pick up Fiendish Blow).

From where I'm standing, this reeks very, very, VERY heavily of "Awesome But Impractical" - it just doesn't sound worth it to me at all.

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People used dancer whit 16 hp, 0 defense and literally no way of doing anything other than dancing for years, i don't see how someone like lorenz, that has better bases and growths than any older dancer, is going to be a liability just because he is not good as a non dancer lol.

Edited by Flere210
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