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Dancer on Maddening - Blue Lions

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8 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

People used dancer whit 16 hp, 0 defense and literally no way of doing anything other than dancing for years, i don't see how someone like lorenz, that has better bases and growths than any older dancer, is going to be a liability just because he is not good as a non dancer lol.

Because he's obviously a third-rate unit (and one who has a good chance of not winning, at that), and personally, I'd like my dancer to be able to do SOMETHING other than dancing in the event it's impractical or even impossible.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Because he's obviously a third-rate unit (and one who has a good chance of not winning, at that), and personally, I'd like my dancer to be able to do SOMETHING other than dancing in the event it's impractical or even impossible.

The problem, though, is Dancer Lorenz *isn't* a third-rate unit. He's Dancer/10, like basically anyone else you could make into a dancer. Arguably he's slightly better, since the Riding boon gives him a relatively easy path to Movement+1, basically the most useful skill for a dancer. So, (Dancer+1)/10?

As for "doing SOMETHING other than dancing", the issue is that, every player phase, you'll have to decide "Do I dance, or do I do other good thing?" I learned the hard way with Dancer Annette, who had to pick between Dancing and Rallying every Player Phase. And if there's a case where your dancer has no one to dance for, then you either don't need the dancing (nor the "something else" since you're about to finish the map, or you dun goofed.  Why have a dancer who Physics, when you can dance for a neighboring Bishop/Gremory/Holy Knight? Why have a Dancer who Rallies, when you can dance for your resident rallybot? Same with attacking or gambiting. All that really matters for a Dancer is enemy phase, which Lorenz isn't great at, but nor is he particularly bad at. He's durable, and fast enough not to be doubled by non-fast classes.

One part I will agree with is not entering him if his Charm isn't high enough to guarantee victory. Ideally you'd feed him the free lesson, tea, and a charm booster, but I can understand preferring a dancer who doesn't require the latter two investments. 

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Doing dancer Lorenz on my first Maddening run and he's legitimately the dancer I've had to worry the least about. You don't have to be a powerhouse to be a good dancer: you need to dance, have nothing else to do that's valuable, and not turn into mist when an enemy unit sneezes in your direction. Lorenz fits the bill quite nicely.

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9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

The problem, though, is Dancer Lorenz *isn't* a third-rate unit. He's Dancer/10, like basically anyone else you could make into a dancer. Arguably he's slightly better, since the Riding boon gives him a relatively easy path to Movement+1, basically the most useful skill for a dancer. So, (Dancer+1)/10?

As for "doing SOMETHING other than dancing", the issue is that, every player phase, you'll have to decide "Do I dance, or do I do other good thing?" I learned the hard way with Dancer Annette, who had to pick between Dancing and Rallying every Player Phase. And if there's a case where your dancer has no one to dance for, then you either don't need the dancing (nor the "something else" since you're about to finish the map, or you dun goofed.  Why have a dancer who Physics, when you can dance for a neighboring Bishop/Gremory/Holy Knight? Why have a Dancer who Rallies, when you can dance for your resident rallybot? Same with attacking or gambiting. All that really matters for a Dancer is enemy phase, which Lorenz isn't great at, but nor is he particularly bad at. He's durable, and fast enough not to be doubled by non-fast classes.

One part I will agree with is not entering him if his Charm isn't high enough to guarantee victory. Ideally you'd feed him the free lesson, tea, and a charm booster, but I can understand preferring a dancer who doesn't require the latter two investments. 

The problem, as I see it, is that there's a good amount of game before the dance competition (it doesn't come into play until chapter 9), and I expect Lorenz to start sputtering long before then, barring massive RNG luck. Such is what tends to happen when you don't excel. Also, Movement +1 requires so much investment into riding that even for units with a riding boon, I wouldn't expect to see it until the game is pretty much over.

Unfortunately, some of the other candidates for dancers mentioned here have the same issues as Lorenz - they're likely to start falling behind before the dance competition is relevant, and they have low enough charm stats to ensure any dreams they might have had of dance competition glory stay just that. To quote a certain hedgehog, "That's no good!"

Edited by Shadow Mir

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On 11/28/2019 at 1:27 AM, Shadow Mir said:

The problem, as I see it, is that there's a good amount of game before the dance competition (it doesn't come into play until chapter 9), and I expect Lorenz to start sputtering long before then, barring massive RNG luck. Such is what tends to happen when you don't excel. Also, Movement +1 requires so much investment into riding that even for units with a riding boon, I wouldn't expect to see it until the game is pretty much over.

Unfortunately, some of the other candidates for dancers mentioned here have the same issues as Lorenz - they're likely to start falling behind before the dance competition is relevant, and they have low enough charm stats to ensure any dreams they might have had of dance competition glory stay just that. To quote a certain hedgehog, "That's no good!"

You have many options of fixing a unit's charm by that point, at least enough for the rather modest charm req. that the class requires. But I don't want to keep repeating myself on that, as I already said all that on my page 1 post. As for the riding thing:

Step 1. Put his focus on Riding early on.

Step 2. Profit.

Really, movement +1 is more of a bonus than anything. But if you're arguing that Lorenz will only see the skill lategame, then that means that riding neutral or weak characters probably won't see the skill at all. Aka a point still in Lorenz' favour, as even having it for one or two maps is still good to have.

If you just have a hateboner for the purple Noble and can't stand the idea of him breaking it down, then just make Ignatz a dancer, I guess. He joins in chapter 13 at the exact same time as Lorenz so you're not losing (too much) utility by making him one over Lorenz. I will say that if you go that route, Lorenz will be useless and probably die on chapter 13, and you also lose rally speed on Ignatz in place of dancing. If you make Lorenz a dancer, that useless unit pulls his weight, AND you have Ignatz to supply Rally Speed (which could save your life on Maddening) and chip.

I'm suprised you're still having this back and forth about not wanting a dancer that only dances and nothing else. I feel like you didn't even clarify what exactly you want your dancer to do aside from dancing, but if it's >any player phase action other than dance, well...

On 11/27/2019 at 4:19 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for "doing SOMETHING other than dancing", the issue is that, every player phase, you'll have to decide "Do I dance, or do I do other good thing?" I learned the hard way with Dancer Annette, who had to pick between Dancing and Rallying every Player Phase. And if there's a case where your dancer has no one to dance for, then you either don't need the dancing (nor the "something else" since you're about to finish the map, or you dun goofed.  Why have a dancer who Physics, when you can dance for a neighboring Bishop/Gremory/Holy Knight? Why have a Dancer who Rallies, when you can dance for your resident rallybot? Same with attacking or gambiting. All that really matters for a Dancer is enemy phase, which Lorenz isn't great at, but nor is he particularly bad at. He's durable, and fast enough not to be doubled by non-fast classes.

This guy more or less sums up the long & short of it.

With all do respect, you haven't brought up a convincing argument as to why we shouldn't use Lorenz. The Charm thing was debunked on page 1 (I really don't know why you're trying to bring that back), and now your argument amounts to "well he's a mediocre unit so why should I use him at all?". We also explained why him being a mediocre unit doesn't hurt him or your team as a dancer.

On 11/27/2019 at 11:41 AM, Shadow Mir said:

From where I'm standing, this reeks very, very, VERY heavily of "Awesome But Impractical" - it just doesn't sound worth it to me at all.

A bit late of a response, innit? Eh, whatever. You didn't even give a counterargument for this either? You just said "it sounds bad" and expect me to sell you on something you close your ears off to?

You say it's impractical, but Annette has an axe proficiency and no weakness in Lance or flying. I'm not going into the Wyvern Lord circlejerk, but with that proficiency, just by default it's one of her best classes. She also has the strongest claim to the Bolt Axe (and if you're playing BL, Crusher).

Once DLC pack 4 drops though, I think her best class will be Dark Flier however, since it's easier to go into and will give her Thoron, if the datamine is to be believed.

Really though, the point is getting her on wings ASAP so she can reach more people with her rally. Regardless, its a direct answer to your criticism of Rallybot Annette and her 4 move.

If you want to drag this on as well, please respond by telling me HOW WL Annette isn't worth raising her axe/flying rank and why I should use X instead/not use your girl. That way we're having a proper discussion/debate/what have you. Responding "that doesn't seem like it's worth it/why would I use that?" isn't a counterargument and only makes me feel like I wasted my breath trying to reply to you.

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12 hours ago, Jakkun said:

A bit late of a response, innit? Eh, whatever. You didn't even give a counterargument for this either? You just said "it sounds bad" and expect me to sell you on something you close your ears off to?

You say it's impractical, but Annette has an axe proficiency and no weakness in Lance or flying. I'm not going into the Wyvern Lord circlejerk, but with that proficiency, just by default it's one of her best classes. She also has the strongest claim to the Bolt Axe (and if you're playing BL, Crusher).

Once DLC pack 4 drops though, I think her best class will be Dark Flier however, since it's easier to go into and will give her Thoron, if the datamine is to be believed.

Really though, the point is getting her on wings ASAP so she can reach more people with her rally. Regardless, its a direct answer to your criticism of Rallybot Annette and her 4 move.

If you want to drag this on as well, please respond by telling me HOW WL Annette isn't worth raising her axe/flying rank and why I should use X instead/not use your girl. That way we're having a proper discussion/debate/what have you. Responding "that doesn't seem like it's worth it/why would I use that?" isn't a counterargument and only makes me feel like I wasted my breath trying to reply to you.

Simply put, she has to rely on two very inaccurate weapons (Bolt Axe and Crusher, both of which have a WONDERFUL 60 base hit, which, for the record, is the lowest accuracy any weapons the player can use have) for damage, and the latter is exclusive to one route. Fuck that. Also, you didn't even so much as tell me how are you going to get her there, because she's forced to rely on physical weapons, and we all know mages and physical weapons tend to not mix. Also, if you really wanted her on wings ASAP, there's Pegasus Knight, so why in the seven hells are you trying to sell this quarter-baked gimmick again?? Because having the strongest claim to the Bolt Axe doesn't mean anything when it sucks. Ditto for Crusher, which I would consider a shoe-in for the most worthless Relic weapon. I'd much rather make her a mage instead, because it's infinitely more practical.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Simply put, she has to rely on two very inaccurate weapons (Bolt Axe and Crusher, both of which have a WONDERFUL 60 base hit, which, for the record, is the lowest accuracy any weapons the player can use have) for damage, and the latter is exclusive to one route. Fuck that. Also, you didn't even so much as tell me how are you going to get her there, because she's forced to rely on physical weapons, and we all know mages and physical weapons tend to not mix. Also, if you really wanted her on wings ASAP, there's Pegasus Knight, so why in the seven hells are you trying to sell this quarter-baked gimmick again?? Because having the strongest claim to the Bolt Axe doesn't mean anything when it sucks. Ditto for Crusher, which I would consider a shoe-in for the most worthless Relic weapon. I'd much rather make her a mage instead, because it's infinitely more practical.

Not gonna respond to the Lorenz bit of my post? Am I to assume we've closed the book on that? If so, good.

On Annette:

You're overstating the heck out of hit rates. I saw another thread where you were complaining about Raging Storm's hit issues, and any arguments I have to say on that would amount to what Silly and Dark Holy Elf said to you there. Just like the Charm thing you keep bringing up, you have many ways of mitigating hit issues.

I thought it was implied that you'd be going Pegasus when I said "get her on wings ASAP", sorry for not making it crystal clear, but yeah. Wyvern would just be the end class, since why would you just stay as a Peg for the rest of your life after hitting Lv.20+.

How do we get her there? Uhh put her goals on Lance/Flying, then switch to Axe/Flying after she gets to Peg. Not that hard.

You'd much rather make her a mage, but you also said her 4 move is an issue. Well, my post about Wyver- ahem, any Flier class for Annette is a response for that. And from the looks of it, nothing you just said is a rebuttal for the utility that flier Annette provides.

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3 hours ago, Jakkun said:

Not gonna respond to the Lorenz bit of my post? Am I to assume we've closed the book on that? If so, good.

I was more focused on Annette at the time. I'll get to that soon enough.

3 hours ago, Jakkun said:

On Annette:

You're overstating the heck out of hit rates. I saw another thread where you were complaining about Raging Storm's hit issues, and any arguments I have to say on that would amount to what Silly and Dark Holy Elf said to you there. Just like the Charm thing you keep bringing up, you have many ways of mitigating hit issues.

I thought it was implied that you'd be going Pegasus when I said "get her on wings ASAP", sorry for not making it crystal clear, but yeah. Wyvern would just be the end class, since why would you just stay as a Peg for the rest of your life after hitting Lv.20+.

How do we get her there? Uhh put her goals on Lance/Flying, then switch to Axe/Flying after she gets to Peg. Not that hard.

You'd much rather make her a mage, but you also said her 4 move is an issue. Well, my post about Wyver- ahem, any Flier class for Annette is a response for that. And from the looks of it, nothing you just said is a rebuttal for the utility that flier Annette provides.

And you're glossing over them. So we're kinda stuck. I don't give a fig how powerful your attack is if either you can't hit worth a damn or the risk far outweighs the reward. I think both are issues here. I shouldn't have to spell out what that means in terms of practicality. As to Charm, I'd rather use someone who didn't need me to divert resources, those being activity points  and charm boosters, from someone else I had plans on using long term, just so they could win the White Heron Cup. Get it? Got it? Good. Now let us never speak of this again. 

Fair, but I still think it's a half-baked gimmick at best, and as smart as robbing a police station at worst.

So you're willing to waste too much skill experience on unhelpful skills (axes). Yay? Also, I didn't make it clear, but I was talking more about, if she cannot use magic, then what are you going to do to get her experience considering that she's going to deal crap damage with physical weapons?

I do agree that 4 move is a problem, but I'd rather deal with that than advocate something that in terms of investment versus payoff, I deem to be far too much investment for too little payoff (AKA, Awesome But Impractical). And I definitely consider it a much lesser problem than your having to have her get kills with physical weapons when her strength sucks.

17 hours ago, Jakkun said:

You have many options of fixing a unit's charm by that point, at least enough for the rather modest charm req. that the class requires. But I don't want to keep repeating myself on that, as I already said all that on my page 1 post. As for the riding thing:

Step 1. Put his focus on Riding early on.

Step 2. Profit.

Really, movement +1 is more of a bonus than anything. But if you're arguing that Lorenz will only see the skill lategame, then that means that riding neutral or weak characters probably won't see the skill at all. Aka a point still in Lorenz' favour, as even having it for one or two maps is still good to have.

If you just have a hateboner for the purple Noble and can't stand the idea of him breaking it down, then just make Ignatz a dancer, I guess. He joins in chapter 13 at the exact same time as Lorenz so you're not losing (too much) utility by making him one over Lorenz. I will say that if you go that route, Lorenz will be useless and probably die on chapter 13, and you also lose rally speed on Ignatz in place of dancing. If you make Lorenz a dancer, that useless unit pulls his weight, AND you have Ignatz to supply Rally Speed (which could save your life on Maddening) and chip.

I'm suprised you're still having this back and forth about not wanting a dancer that only dances and nothing else. I feel like you didn't even clarify what exactly you want your dancer to do aside from dancing, but if it's >any player phase action other than dance, well...

Like I said, if you're thinking I'm willing to divert resources from other units I have long-term plans for just to make someone a dancer, think again, because as I see it, that's a Texas-sized red flag. And an automatic deal-breaker. Ergo, if the bonus charm from dance practice ain't enough, and odds are it won't be for most of the units mentioned here, then in my book, they're off the table for dancer consideration, and that is that. It doesn't help that while the game says 13 is the magic number, I've heard from a video that some people had that much and still lost, and recommended 16 or 17 charm to guarantee a win (aka, the computer is a lying bastard). 

RE: Lorenz, if I had chapter 13 in mind, he'd still not be much help as a dancer because he spawns with Ignatz, who's also dubious in terms of unit quality. And that's not even getting into his being very bad as a unit, which ensures he hits the bench long before the dance competition is relevant..

 

Edited by Shadow Mir

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23 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

So you're willing to waste too much skill experience on unhelpful skills (axes). Yay? Also, I didn't make it clear, but I was talking more about, if she cannot use magic, then what are you going to do to get her experience considering that she's going to deal crap damage with physical weapons?

Just to address this part: Annette gets the Lightning Axe combat Art as C+ Axes. This lets her deal magic damage with any axe (at 1-range), and uses the magical, rather than physical, hit formula. She can combine this with weapons like the Training Axe or Mace, along with the Axe prowess skills, to have a good hit rate. 1-range may sound bad, but consider that 7 move as a wyvern rider means she'll have an attacking range of 8, versus 6 for Mage/Warlock.

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if we're talking about Blue Lions, Ingrid is the best dancer. She's pretty awful early game, doesn't rebound like Sylvain, and there isn't enough XP to go around. She also happens to have a Riding talent, so she can get Move +1 quicker. Not much more you really need out of a Dancer, so it's best to keep it simple. 

As for the Annette discussion, Wyvern is so much better than the typical mage path to Dark Knight. PegKnight!Annette is good enough to one shot most enemies at Level 10 with the Lightning Axe Combat Art on Hard Mode. On Maddening though, PK!Annette is too weak to do that, so Mage -> Wyvern is better. Since no one is doubling there, Fiendish Blow is much more useful than Darting Blow. Dust has pretty crazy damage, and Bolt Axe+ gives Annette 3 range without needing an equip item or S in Reason. Annette's the best magic flier that this game has (at least until the DLC), and she has great Rallies that are even more useful as a flier. DK takes way too long to become good, requires more investment to really take advantage of it, and Annette's spell list is uninspiring anyway. If you're using Annette, Wyvern is noticeably better in almost every way. 

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So, uh, is there a consensus on the best dancer?

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How about we show some numbers to give some context about reaching A+ Riding?

 
It takes 1760 Skill Exp to reach A+ Riding. On Maddening, the Skill Exp from Weekly Training   is reduced from 36 to 30 compared to Hard when studying only a single Skill, or from 44 to +36 if you have a Boon. 
 
So from weekly training alone, it'd take more months than they're are in the actual game to reach A+, since there's only 47 Weeks of training in the game and it take 49 Weeks to reach it with a boon. So it's clear that they'll need to be tutored regularly.
 
Let's assume that the Dancer starts getting regularly tutored by Chapter 10. By that chapter you can safely hit A rank Professor Level, which grants 7 tutoring sessions and should be enough to add instructing a Dancer regularly. 
 
With the Maculi Statue bonus and assuming they have a Boon in Riding, every session with a Dancer will give them at the very minimum 32 Riding Exp. Getting a single perfect will also increase that to 48 exp. so let's just assume it averages to the point where they earn +40 Exp from Tutoring every week from than on out.
 
Assuming that the Dancer has studied nothing but Riding by this point they will have earned 684 Riding Exp, or just barely reached B rank. By adding the tutoring Exp, they'll be earning ~76 Riding Exp a week.
 
So a Dancer with a boon can reach A+ Riding by Chapter 17 without much difficulty. But there's still a lot that could be added to that to make it them earn Movement +1 that much faster. 
 
They could, for example, Certify as a Cavalier and then proceed to be placed as a Adjutant to a unit that see's a lot of combat. While Adjutants have a reduced Exp Gain, they'll still gain Skill Exp at a normal rate. So if they saw only 50 battles as a Adjutant before becoming a Dancer, that'd still be the difference of +250 Riding Exp thanks to Cavalier granting 2 Riding Exp for every round of combat.
 
They could also participate in Stable Duty, where a Good will grant them 12 Riding Exp while a Prefect will add 16. So let's average it out and say that they gain +14 Riding Exp per week.
 
All this means in total the Dancer will gain +50 Exp from weekly training and will have an additional +250 Riding Exp. So that B rank by Chapter 10 would instead be only 120 Skill Exp away from A rank (1320 Exp).  Add on the average +40 exp from tutoring and that will result in getting ~90 Riding Exp a week. 
 
That means you can make a Dancer with a boon in Riding realistically reach A+ Riding by Chapter 15. 
 
But what about if they didn't have a boon? In that case, they would only gain +30 from Weekly Exp gain, Average +10 from Stable Duty, and obtain 200 Riding Exp after 50 rounds of combat as cavalier. So by Chapter 10 they'll have 760 Riding Exp and will gain a total of ~70 Exp a week. 
 
So Dancer without a boon will not reach A+ Riding until Chapter 17 at earliest. 
 
So with all that in mind, who is the best Dancer? I think that it's pretty safe to say that it should be most certainly a unit with a Riding Boon and a good starting Lance Rank so they don't have to be tutored to certify as a Cavalier.
 
This might be controversial, but overall I think Ingrid is the best unit for the job in the Blue Lions house. Not only is she a unit that joins with both a boon in Riding and Lances, she's also has enough Charm at base to reach 13 with dance instruction making it easy for her to win the dance competition. 
 
But the biggest reason why I think she does better than most other candidates, however, is the fact that her Link Attacks provides +3 Attack to Sylvain and Felix. That attack bonus can really make a difference when Sylvain's attacking with Swift Strikes or Felix is quading with Gauntlets or a Brave Weapon. Her learning Thoron at C Reason also really helps in this 
Edited by LoneRecon400

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On 12/4/2019 at 1:26 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Just to address this part: Annette gets the Lightning Axe combat Art as C+ Axes. This lets her deal magic damage with any axe (at 1-range), and uses the magical, rather than physical, hit formula. She can combine this with weapons like the Training Axe or Mace, along with the Axe prowess skills, to have a good hit rate. 1-range may sound bad, but consider that 7 move as a wyvern rider means she'll have an attacking range of 8, versus 6 for Mage/Warlock.

That ain't enough for me, especially considering Lightning Axe doesn't even get any extra hit.

14 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

As for the Annette discussion, Wyvern is so much better than the typical mage path to Dark Knight. PegKnight!Annette is good enough to one shot most enemies at Level 10 with the Lightning Axe Combat Art on Hard Mode. On Maddening though, PK!Annette is too weak to do that, so Mage -> Wyvern is better. Since no one is doubling there, Fiendish Blow is much more useful than Darting Blow. Dust has pretty crazy damage, and Bolt Axe+ gives Annette 3 range without needing an equip item or S in Reason. Annette's the best magic flier that this game has (at least until the DLC), and she has great Rallies that are even more useful as a flier. DK takes way too long to become good, requires more investment to really take advantage of it, and Annette's spell list is uninspiring anyway. If you're using Annette, Wyvern is noticeably better in almost every way. 

Far as I'm concerned, I think it's about as worth it as summoning Gate Guardian was in Yu-Gi-Oh (aka, not at all; for those of you who don't know YGO, Gate Guardian required sacrificing three specific monsters who themselves require two tributes each. Making matters worse, the components' combined attack is twice that of GG's, they have decent effects that it doesn't get, AND three monsters are harder to get rid of than a single target). Having your magic options be even less accurate than Lysithea's Luna and Hades, which I already consider iffy in the accuracy department, sounds about as smart as robbing a police station, if you ask me. Especially when one of those forces her into close range, where if she doesn't kill for whatever reason you might as well get some butter and jam, because she's toast. The fact that it's a Hero's Relic only makes things worse, because they're generally too pricey to repair for how good they are(n't).

Edited by Shadow Mir

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I think with the Blue Lions, Ingrid May make the best overall dancer. But I personally think Ashe is far from a bad option, since, like Ingrid, he too may have trouble doing things an FE character should be good at. He may have utility with bows and his personal, but that’s most of it. Big thing here is that he joins the fight in Ch 13 earlier than Ingrid, which is far more important than joining later.

I could be exaggerating things, though. Is Ashe’s position on the map and wThe time he joins that big of a deal?

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That ain't enough for me, especially considering Lightning Axe doesn't even get any extra hit.

That's... not much in the way of an argument. It appears that you've simply resolved that axes are inaccurate, no ways of improving the user's accuracy are good enough, neither their high might nor associated classes and combat arts will justify using them, and you won't use them. In which case, fine, play how you want to play, but there's not much sense in talking any more about it, huh?

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44 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's... not much in the way of an argument. It appears that you've simply resolved that axes are inaccurate, no ways of improving the user's accuracy are good enough, neither their high might nor associated classes and combat arts will justify using them, and you won't use them. In which case, fine, play how you want to play, but there's not much sense in talking any more about it, huh?

If I've said it once, I've said it a trillion times: High power doesn't do you a lick of good if you miss. Some of us here are not fond of gambling on every attack (not only do the Crusher and Bolt Axe have a dismal 60 base hit, which is the lowest accuracy of anything usable by the player, they use a different formula for accuracy than most weapons that makes it harder to shore up). Not that you seem to grasp that. And that's not even getting into their high weight for most of them, which is much harder to address.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Magic weapons use a different formula for accuracy than most weapons that makes it harder to shore up.

High power doesn't do you a lick of good if you miss. Some of us here are not fond of gambling on every attack. 

You do realize that the Magic Forumla often results in enemies losing more Avoid  due to them not having nearly as much Luck as Speed, right? Enemy Assassins and Falco Knights can lose upwards to 10-15 Avoid by using the Magic Hiy Formula rather than the Physical Hit one. And that's putting aside the fact that the Formula also denies the enemy Terrain bonuses. 

I also still don't understand why you're making a big deal out of Axes missing when you can easily mitigate any Hit issues in this game. Just take a look at an Wyvern Annette's Hit Rates in Chapter 13: https://imgur.com/a/lPUmynX

If you're still not convinced by those 90 hit rates being enough to consistently hit enemies, you should also take into consideration that her Hit Rate can boosted even further in the form of Link Attacks and Adjutants.

Units in Three Houses  are only innaccurate if you don't invest the right resources into them. To judge the accuracy of a unit just by the base Hit of a weapon completely ignores various other factors and really gives a distorted perceptive.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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39 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

I also still don't understand why you're making a big deal out of Axes missing when you can easily mitigate any Hit issues in this game. Just take a look at an Wyvern Annette's Hit Rates in Chapter 13: https://imgur.com/a/lPUmynX

Thank you for that. Just curious, wich battalion is used, i can't find a list of the flying ones.

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1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

You do realize that the Magic Forumla often results in enemies losing more Avoid  due to them not having nearly as much Luck as Speed, right? Enemy Assassins and Falco Knights can lose upwards to 10-15 Avoid by using the Magic Hiy Formula rather than the Physical Hit one. And that's putting aside the fact that the Formula also denies the enemy Terrain bonuses. 

I also still don't understand why you're making a big deal out of Axes missing when you can easily mitigate any Hit issues in this game. Just take a look at an Wyvern Annette's Hit Rates in Chapter 13: https://imgur.com/a/lPUmynX

If you're still not convinced by those 90 hit rates being enough to consistently hit enemies, you should also take into consideration that her Hit Rate can boosted even further in the form of Link Attacks and Adjutants.

Units in Three Houses  are only innaccurate if you don't invest the right resources into them. To judge the accuracy of a unit just by the base Hit of a weapon completely ignores various other factors and really gives a distorted perceptive.

And the fact she needs constant linked attack support just to have respectable accuracy with those weapons doesn't bother you? Because I find it strategically limiting. At any rate, I'm fine with something if the payoff is worth the investment. Unfortunately, I think it most definitely is not here.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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20 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And the fact she needs constant linked attack support just to have respectable accuracy with those weapons doesn't bother you? Because I find it strategically limiting. At any rate, I'm fine with something if the payoff is worth the investment. Unfortunately, I think it most definitely is not here.

Needing Link Attacks for Respectable Accuracy? What? She has 90 Hit across the board on some of the most dodgiest enemies you have to face. How isn't 90+ Hit Rates respectable?

And what units are worthy of investment? Because I don't see many units being capable of OHKOing Chapter 13 enemies in Terrain while still being able to Canto out of danger.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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44 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Thank you for that. Just curious, wich battalion is used, i can't find a list of the flying ones.

2nd picture - Kingdom Wyvern Company

Here's a list that tells you whether or not a battalion is flying: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11AVDrZwEzt4bie3kuP5Wq9KQ9SuaudArNnTft_XuN58/htmlview

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BL - I may be just reiterating a bunch of posts, I think Ashe and Annette rather than Ingrid. And there seem to be a huge emphasis on Ch 13, even though it is honestly the easiest on BL with Dimitri having a breaker + personal for +35 avo without considering a bush.

I think Ashe is great to do it, he is not a spectacular unit and you need to bench people to put on Seteth, and maybe Shamir and Catherine. Ashe falls off hard, and I think making him a dancer would be usable if you really want someone in Ch. 13 to help out to clear it quicker.

Annette can do the same but better, since she starts off with Mercie and you prob want to physics multiple times. Disregarding her as WL cause I found Rally early game was better of an investment of experience than feeding her kills. Personally I used Annette as a rally bot then a battalion bot as a commoner for 1turn boss maps better than her as a dancer cause of the boon in authority and bench her on route maps. But excluding that, authority boon on a dancer is amazing since some battalions are better for a situation than the vanilla dance. Such as the dancer battalion /retribution.

Ingrid, I think although can easily be Str screwed, she can help out early game as a flyer for mage killing and paralogues and that precious Maddening experience would be a waste on a dancer if she was flying around prior. And later she becomes a dodge tank against swords if go with B lance in either Falcon or Wyvern, for Ch 13 which is littered with Assassins and thieves. Assuming youre also choosing Wyvern Sylv and Sniper Felix in Ch 13 top right corner will be easy with a dodge tank too. And dodge tank in any other situation that isnt against a breaker since its much easier to tutor her in flying for that A+ quicker than others. 

I think Annette > Ashe > Ingrid. Flayn isnt bad either if you dont consider Ch. 13, which makes sense why its being emphasized in this thread. 

Edited by Johnzin

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5 hours ago, Johnzin said:

I think Annette > Ashe > Ingrid. Flayn isnt bad either if you dont consider Ch. 13, which makes sense why its being emphasized in this thread. 

I used Dancer Annette, and I think you're kind of neglecting her Rally aspect. Making her your dancer means you have to choose between Dancing and Rallying every turn (+4 Res is fine, but +4 Str and +4 Spd together is no joke). Moreover, if you make someone else your dancer, you can potentially rally two people in one turn. Finally, you reference the Dancing and Retribution gambits, but IMO those are better on other people; you can have a unit heal/attack/rally, dance for them, and then they use their support gambit.

So I would say Ashe, Ingrid, and Flayn are better to make your dancer, unless you think their player-phase offensive/support abilities surpass those of everyone's favorite rally girl.

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I was happy with Dancer Annette; I don't need a dancer who can do much on their own turn, but sometimes there are no mages nearby to dance for so having a dancer who can take out both armour knights (which any mage can) and wyverns was kinda nice.

I can't say I missed rallies, they're okay early but I was particularly impressed by them later on. Rally is a tough sell as an action in this game with relatively little enemy phase, where it eats into skill slots something fierce (and skill slots are very valuable), where it only targets one, adjacent ally (unlike Awakening/Fates), and where it doesn't give the user exp / skill exp / class exp (unlike healing and other faith actions).

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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I can't say I missed rallies, they're okay early but I was particularly impressed by them later on. Rally is a tough sell as an action in this game with relatively little enemy phase, where it eats into skill slots something fierce (and skill slots are very valuable), where it only targets one, adjacent ally (unlike Awakening/Fates), and where it doesn't give the user exp / skill exp / class exp (unlike healing and other faith actions).

I agree, certainly, that Rallying isn't as strong as it was in Fates and Awakening, and that being a non-EXP granting action is an inconvenience. Personally, I would've liked to see a "rally specialist" intermediate class, that promotes based on Authority and gets a nerfed Rally Spectrum as a class skill, but that's neither here nor there.

I still found rallies to be quite useful, particularly from Annette - if the plus 4 speed lets you double, or saves you from being doubled, then it's a huge boon. And 4 strength is good on any physical unit (and may add an extra 1 AS to weighed-down units). This game uses skills and gambits to prioritize player phase importance, but you do get a very powerful enemy phase tool in the Retribution gambit. Which, for Blue Lions, is available from D-Authority through the Kingdom Archers (seriously, who gave them all the great gambits?). For my part, I got Rallied Retribution Dedue clearing whole rooms in Month 9 Maddening (NG+, admittedly), it was hilarious.

I guess the bottom-line, I will concede; if you don't use Rallies, or don't view Annette's rallies as worth it, then she is a solid pick for Dancer. But if you want to maximally exploit her Rallying, then find another unit to Dance.

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