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Would crit+20 help mortal savant?


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I love this class but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't the single most underwhelming of the master classes.  Would adding crit +20 like war master make it at least on par with the others?

An extra 10 crit could make up for the lower speed from swordmaster, and with felix's budding talent raising that to +30 could balance out his lacking spell list.   

Ideally this would be the easiest way to make it a worthwhile class.  In my opinion at least.

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Given that MS is the only master class with only two abilities it doesn't hurt to have this as a third ability and could give it a definite edge above DK magic-wise. It'd still be a full 4 speed behind Assassin so MS will have trouble doubling if going physical with this class. Not really a problem if going magical because mages rarely double anyway.

It doesn't solve the core issue of few characters being proficient in both strength and magic so its viability as a hybrid class is still questionable. It's definitely solid as a magic class due to certain spells having extra range and crit, and with something like crit+20 and maybe a speed buff it'd do fine as a physical sword class as well.

I was planning on making some kind of post to buff/nerf classes sometime later actually. This was one of those ideas I had in mind.

Edited by Fire Flower
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The problem with the mortal savant is that for a sword user it's not a very good upgrade as you just get 1 movement and lose speed for the ability to use magic on a character that probably has less than 20 magic. For mages it's an okay upgrade for the mages that have a sword strength even though it was mostly useless the entire game but you would rather go for dark knight or gremory. 

I was thinking of giving the Mortal savant a unique class ability sorcery blade.

This skill is in FEH and it's absolutely worthless because of the weird condition of being next to a magic unit and only restricted to daggers/bows infantry, but the effect itself was do physical or magic depending on which stat is lower on your attack like the dragon breaths.

In Three Houses it would give physical attacks use your strength stat to do magic damage to an enemy. It would make them do a lot more damage especially with combat arts. Speed loss from physical class gets compensated with much more deadlier physical attacks. 

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I don't get why Mortal Savant isn't just a direct upgrade from Swordmaster with magic, like Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord and Warmaster (pretty much) are just direct upgrades. The reduction in speed is weird and seems like a poor design choice to me.

Crit + 20 would definitely give this class a nice edge, I also always thought that Mortal Savant was supposed to be some sort of variant on Dread Fighters so maybe Apotrope from Echoes could be another possible skill? Not sure if it would be that useful though.

All I really wish is that mortal savant wouldn't have any speed penalties, so it could be the fastest mage type unit while also having good physical damage. 

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I feel like to make Mortal Savant work, you'd really need to give the class something unique. @PPPPPPP270 made a good point.

In my experience training two different proficiencies throughout most of the game when you will only ever realistically use one 90% of the time just isn't worth the effort. I tried Mortal Savant Felix by going through a sword user route, and by the time he could use magic it was barely ever worth doing. I also did Mortal Savant Ingrid via mage route, and by the time she got there, she was so good at magic that using a physical weapon never seemed necessary.

In my mind, to fix the class, it either needs to have something really special that no other master class can offer, or needs a better class progression. Tactitian and Grandmaster from Awakening comes to mind here - I remember I used both weapon types frequently in that game when using Robin.

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1 hour ago, Elephantus said:

I feel like to make Mortal Savant work, you'd really need to give the class something unique. @PPPPPPP270 made a good point.

In my experience training two different proficiencies throughout most of the game when you will only ever realistically use one 90% of the time just isn't worth the effort. I tried Mortal Savant Felix by going through a sword user route, and by the time he could use magic it was barely ever worth doing. I also did Mortal Savant Ingrid via mage route, and by the time she got there, she was so good at magic that using a physical weapon never seemed necessary.

In my mind, to fix the class, it either needs to have something really special that no other master class can offer, or needs a better class progression. Tactitian and Grandmaster from Awakening comes to mind here - I remember I used both weapon types frequently in that game when using Robin.

Well like @PPPPPPP270 said -and I'm a bit unhappy that my reality of being the only one to think of it was shattered- but you could simply give them a mastery skill variant of Rhea's "Ancient Dragon Wrath" (Rhea calculates dmg based on the lower of an enemy's Prt or Rst) with a skill that let's them calculate their Attk based on the higher of their Strength or Magic but still doing physical dmg in the case of iron swords and such or magic with spells. Didn't realize it was a skill in heroes though. Ironically it still favors pure str/mag users rather than mix fighters, maybe it could add half the non favored (half magic, in case of iron sword) stat. It'd be essentially a 100% activation rate Ignis in that case.

Edited by CyberNinja
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I think I might re-do it like this:

  • Requirements: Swords A, Reason A, Level 30 (Master Seal)
  • Proficiencies: Swords (+3), Reason (+3)
  • Innate Abilities: Swordfaire, Black Magic Uses x4, Apotrope (cuts all magical damage dealt to the unit in half/final calculation step (stacks with Aegis activation/etc.))
  • Base Stats: HP 32|Str 16|Mag 16|Dex 14|Spd 16|Lck 12|Def 14|Res 20
  • Growth Rate Mods: HP +20%, Str +15%, Mag +15%, Res +15%, Cha +5%
  • In-Class Stat Bonuses: HP +2, Str +3, Mag +3, Spd +2, Res +5
  • Movement: 6, Infantry/Mage-typed (no sand penalty, etc.)
  • Mastery Ability: Warding Blow (unchanged)
  • Mastery Combat Art: Mistwalker (Swords; Mt +5, Hit +20, Crit +0, Rng 1~3, Dur Cost 5; Stops target from moving or using magic for 1 turn)
  • Favored Users: Byleth*, Dorothea, Felix, Ignatz (maybes include Edelgard, Annette, Lorenz, Marianne, and Hanneman)

I'd absolutely expect this unit to carry a Levin Sword+ and use it as their preferred weapon/primary method of offense most of the time.  Their black magic charges are supplementary, for when the character's Levin Sword is about to break or when the side-grade benefits of just casting normally outweigh using it (for example, Wind is far more accurate and lighter, and a Mortal Savant would have a whopping 48 charges of the spell to play with; having 4 Meteor charges is probably reason enough to use the class all by itself, Tomefaire or not; Excalibur has the anti-flier attribute, an enemy Lance-wielder might have Swordbreaker assigned, etc.).  The Spd penalty's gone; that was just a head-scratcher, IMO, not sure why that was there since the class isn't mounted.

The primary role of the class, for me, is being an anti-mage. Apotrope flatly spits in the face of magic attacks, even Luna Λ.  Just certing for MS automatically brings the user's Res up to 20 (25 while in the class), minimum.  It has the highest Res growth modifier of any player class in the game, it still learns Warding Blow as before, and now it also gets the Mistwalker CA, designed to allow the MS to pretty much freeze a foe in place and stop them from casting anything even if the unit using it lacks personal CAs for those purposes (also handy for catching up to something with better mobility, like a Dark/Holy Knight).

Falcon Knight is a decent anti-mage already and more mobile/speedy, that's fact.  But, the non-protag favored users for MS either have a Flying weakness (Dorothea) or are dudes (Felix and Ignatz), and Falcon Knights do not mixed-attack as well as an MS due to the Arrow of Indra being...very, very limited.  Not having any magic access is also a bit of a bummer (MS would still gets the unit's Faith spells if they've bothered with that skill, just like before).

The main thing that bugs me about this alteration to MS is the still-present Black/Dark Magic divide, which screws Lysithea over (Hubert is a very limited-availability unit and would rather be a Dark Knight, anyway).  She has Gremory, though, so I guess it wouldn't be that big of a deal.  I also half-wonder if MS got over-nerfed to compensate for Byleth's Enlightened One mid-development, as admittedly this 'magic swordsman' variant's probably a stronger overall class (then again, Byleth gets EO for free, and TBH that one feels like an Advanced class to me, not Master).

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I just had this idea as a very simple solution:

Mortal Savant uses both magic and strength stats combined to calculate damage on melee attacks. Damage is treated as physical or magical depending on whether the enemy has higher defense or resistance. Your attack will always check against the stat that is lower.

Edit: Oops, I didn't read the thread and saw that my idea has already been said by others before me. The only difference is the additional buff to damage overall by combining strength and magic.

Edited by Vitezen
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You know I just thought of something after reading this thread - Lorenz might actually be decent as a mortal savant since he has hybrid growths and no weakness to swords. Unfortunate that it only comes so late in the game which still makes both him and the class pretty meme

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The best festure of mortal savant is being able to use healing spells while beating people whit a levin sword and swordfaire. In general, i feel magic is only better than magic weapons when Thyrsus is involved, because you can mix and match weapons and arts to maximize damage. Levin sword+ whit wrath strike rival ragnarox, and steel sword + whit hexblade surpass it for example. 

Crit 20 would only marginally help MS imo, the class should just became a EO for everyone and be faith based. This would make it perfect for marianne and a decent option for other people. 

There is little point into sword+reason if levin sword+arts can replace every spell. 

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Mortal Savant needs a top tier combat skill to elevate it.  Most of the candidates for the class have poor spell lists, so the actual magic is worse than just using bows or a levin sword.  The class should be built around utility spells, but none of the characters with utility spells have any reason to use the class. Crit+20 still wouldn't make the class better than warmaster, wyvern lord, or sniper for physical units (or magic weapon wielders).  And it wouldn't make it better than dark knight for magic users. 

Edited by Basileus777
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3 hours ago, BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER said:

You know I just thought of something after reading this thread - Lorenz might actually be decent as a mortal savant since he has hybrid growths and no weakness to swords. Unfortunate that it only comes so late in the game which still makes both him and the class pretty meme

Ingrid or Manuela have a better case with their top tier speed growth and spell lists that favor utility over raw damage.  But even then they're just better off in other classes. 

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I think one of the problems is how difficult it is to get both A Sword and A Reason. Physical classes can't use magic, and magic classes will favor heavily towards magic due to movement/range/frailty issues and Fiendish Blow. There's also no class that supports both Sword and Reason, so the only practical way to make it to Mortal Savant is to heavily tutor in the opposite skill.

I'd like to see the requirements changed to A Reason and C Sword. It seems like magic users get the most out of the class with a Levin Sword+, while physical units would rather spend the extra tutoring time moving towards a flying class instead.

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12 hours ago, Basileus777 said:

Ingrid or Manuela have a better case with their top tier speed growth and spell lists that favor utility over raw damage.  But even then they're just better off in other classes. 

Ya but the problem with that is Ingrid is so much better in a flying class with her strengths in flying and Manuela comes very late to properly train her up in a low turn run.

I also prefer Manuela as a warp user and I think she's actually good because of that despite a lot of folks saying she's bad especially in a BL run where we're not recruiting students from other houses but that's another topic on its own haha

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8 hours ago, msterforks said:

I think one of the problems is how difficult it is to get both A Sword and A Reason.

It's only A Sword / B+ Reason actually, which is the easiest requirement for a master class (granted, still not that easy, as you note). For the most part it's a fairly niche class, since I'd only really recommend it for characters who both have a decent magic list and a reasonable aptitude for swords (preferably with access to a magical sword combat art). Which is, generously, Edelgard, Dorothea, Felix, Ingrid, Lysithea, Marianne, and Manuela

I disagree with the original post though, since I think Holy Knight is definitely more underwhelming still. Not sure who actually wants to go there, as nobody actually wants White Tomefaire besides maaaybe some cracked-out Byleth White Magic Avo Nosferatu build.

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17 hours ago, Basileus777 said:

Ingrid or Manuela have a better case with their top tier speed growth and spell lists that favor utility over raw damage.  But even then they're just better off in other classes. 

Unfortunately, Manuela has a weakness in Reason, and Ingrid is better off as something flying.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's only A Sword / B+ Reason actually, which is the easiest requirement for a master class (granted, still not that easy, as you note). For the most part it's a fairly niche class, since I'd only really recommend it for characters who both have a decent magic list and a reasonable aptitude for swords (preferably with access to a magical sword combat art). Which is, generously, Edelgard, Dorothea, Felix, Ingrid, Lysithea, Marianne, and Manuela

I would strike Felix off that list - he literally only gets two spells, which is NOT "a decent magic list". It doesn't help he's likely coming from Assassin or Swordmaster, which would result in heavy speed losses. Manuela has a weakness in Reason, so she's out too.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Despite Manuela's reason weakness, she comes with Bolting at A, so it's probably worth grinding that out for that alone. Annoying, yes, but doable.

If Holy Knight's White Tomefaire affected healing spells and ranges as well (so effectively acting as a +5 magic mod for said spells), it'd be very nice.

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34 minutes ago, Fire Flower said:

Despite Manuela's reason weakness, she comes with Bolting at A, so it's probably worth grinding that out for that alone. Annoying, yes, but doable.

I can only see that as feasible on NG+ - probably ain't happening otherwise, even if you recruit her as early as you can.

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On non-Crimson Flower there should definitely be enough time to get Manuela to A Reason well before the game ends. There are ~12 chapters to tutor and it thus it only takes 110 WExp per chapter, easily doable even on Maddening and without a Knowledge Gem (it helps that the only other two skills Manuela really needs for this build, Sword and Faith, are ones she works on before joining anyway). CF would make it tougher for sure.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would strike Felix off that list - he literally only gets two spells, which is NOT "a decent magic list". It doesn't help he's likely coming from Assassin or Swordmaster, which would result in heavy speed losses. Manuela has a weakness in Reason, so she's out too.

One of those two spells is Thoron, which helps, and he does get both Recover and Restore. He loses 3 speed coming from Assassin, but gains 2 def / 2 res / 1 HP / 1 str, so it's hardly a straight loss. (Compared to Swordmaster, well, he gains 1 move, I don't think much else need be said.)

That said I agree with you that MS is not a great choice for him anyway. He's a physical unit with strength in bows and no weaknesses for the most dominant physical classes (Wyvern and Bow Knight) so he should probably end up in one of those.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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What is the point to offense hybridity in Three Houses?

Fates I felt had a strong enough blend of high Def and high Res enemies to adequately justify hybridity. But my currently incomplete first time run of 3H on GD Hard Classic (now Chapter 19) hasn't really seen the same mix of enemies that'd make hybridity more useful. Are only magic users good Res enemies? Even Pegasus Knights haven't had high Res I think. If someone is good with magic, then why not just specialize in that?

The unique justification for hybridity I find in this game, is because of limited Magic uses. But that would only be a warranted concern I'd think if you were trying to frequently enemy phase with a unit who happens to be a spellcaster.

Insofar as I understand the magic system, there is no way to prevent AS loss using magic either. So a hybrid unit could be able to double more frequently for higher damage output than if they stuck to magic- provided they had the AS to double with physical weaponry but not spells against the right kinds of foes. Thats really specific. 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Unfortunately, Manuela has a weakness in Reason, and Ingrid is better off as something flying.

Well everyone is better off as something other than Mortal Savant.  Manuela is better off as a flyer too, she's nearly statistically identical to Ingrid.

Mortal Savant only requires B+ reason, so getting Manuela to a high enough reason rank by level 30 to get a decent chance of passing certification isn't that hard.  Though getting Bolting in time for it to be usable is a tall order. 

Edited by Basileus777
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I think that the biggest problem with Mortal Savant is that it just doesn't feel cool to use. I think it's fine if some classes are weaker than others or are objectively bad or even if they're completely unviable on Maddening, but only if they feel cool. Fortress Knight is not a good class, but it can satisfy the fantasy of being an indestructable heavily armoured wall. It's fun to Warp a Fortress Knight into the middle of an enemy formation and watch them all plink off your armour during enemy phase. Dark Mage and Dark Bishop are totally not worth the effort, but draining the life from an enemy and using it to heal yourself really satisfies the fantasy of using forbidden dark magic.

Mortal Savant doesn't offer anything cool or unique; it's just... there. It doesn't do anything that's unique or unusual or stands out in any way. You're decent with a sword (but not as good as a Swordmaster or Assassin) and decent with magic (but not as good as a warlock) and that's about it. I guess there's Warding Blow that's unique, but that has the dual curse of being both weak and boring.

My attempt at making them more interesting would be to give them a sword combat art that lets you cast a spell afterwards (with no chance to trigger a follow-up attack on that spell). This could be balanced as needed by adjusting the underlying power of the combat art (eg, if it were too powerful, just reduce the accuracy of the art or increase the durability cost). I don't think it would be particularly unbalanced, since it would only allow you to hit twice, but it would be situationally useful if you were finishing off two weakened opponents at once or if you were strong enough to score two one hit kills, and it would definitely feel much cooler than the current nothing of a class.

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Biggest issue with MS is that you never, ever want to use swords aside from Levin since Magic is safer and does more damage. Getting an exclusive combat art like Flamberge (user strikes with magical damage twice in SoV) would give MS a reason to use swords and make up for its middling speed. 

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5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Great Knight is the most underwhelming Master class I'd say.

I would say Holy Knight is just as bad, if not worse. It's supposed to be an offensive Faith user, but unfortunately, the offensive Faith spells are few in number and not very good, with Seraphim as the possible exception. It doesn't help matters that it loses White Magic Uses x2, meaning it is an inferior support class relative to Bishop.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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