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Equippable Combat Arts Tier List

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15 hours ago, Silly said:

It's usually better to just train one weapon type. The majority of good classes only have one weaponfaire, and you likely only want to equip one prowess skill, so by splitting between two weapons you're losing hit and damage.

My wyvern fleet faces some shaky hit rates against axebreakers, which is a problem when the majority of units have breakers on Maddening. Imo anything past A weapons is too heavy of an investment for not enough return (10 crit + a faire that competes for an ability slot). On the other hand, obtaining B in a second weapon opens up silver weapons + breaker, the latter which can be switched out depending on the enemies on the map. Swords especially don't need their prowess, and lances can makedo without them.

 

EDIT: Do two of the same faire stack for +10 damage? I never really thought about it.

Edited by msterforks

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2 hours ago, msterforks said:

My wyvern fleet faces some shaky hit rates against axebreakers, which is a problem when the majority of units have breakers on Maddening. Imo anything past A weapons is too heavy of an investment for not enough return (10 crit + a faire that competes for an ability slot). On the other hand, obtaining B in a second weapon opens up silver weapons + breaker, the latter which can be switched out depending on the enemies on the map. Swords especially don't need their prowess, and lances can makedo without them.

 

EDIT: Do two of the same faire stack for +10 damage? I never really thought about it.

Prowess is not only for acc, it has avoid. Sword prowess has high avoid. If you're using a lance (let's say WL Set / Ferdie / Sylv) they have room for it. Death blow / alert stance (+) / axe prowess / lance prowess / either breaker depending on map. I usually go for sword breaker, not many lance users out there besides peg knights. Way more sword (assassin's/theives/swordmasters) And these three units will be swift striking so breaker and prowess will be useful. Other WL may not need them if they're using axe only (Edel/Petra/Hilda) since they have darting and no good lance arts

Yes, faires can stack

Edited by Johnzin

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my dudes frozen lance is a pretty bonker combat art, your mages won't be doubling anyway and this combat art outdamages most spells

it also helps that hubert/marianne will have to train their lance rank anyway to get into a cavalry master class and that mages do not need their 3 combat art slots anyway

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9 minutes ago, AxelVDP said:

my dudes frozen lance is a pretty bonker combat art, your mages won't be doubling anyway and this combat art outdamages most spells

it also helps that hubert/marianne will have to train their lance rank anyway to get into a cavalry master class and that mages do not need their 3 combat art slots anyway

I'm not convinced - you have to get in close, which is no bueno for a mage unless you seek to finish something off.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm not convinced - you have to get in close, which is no bueno for a mage unless you seek to finish something off.

Frozen Lance is often the only way your mage can finish off / one round an enemy, you obviously use it only when safe and/or in conjunction with canto. Having your mage in a mounted class can sometimes be more beneficial than keeping it in a standard mage class (talking about mid game without master classes), they keep up with the rest of the army and can provide good support through gambits+canto and repositional combat arts, and can still nuke stuff even harder with Frozen Lance (also they can chip away enemy mages with physical attacks if need be)

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1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

You would use frozen lance or lighting axe on classes whit canto, so you should be able to avoid leaving the mages exposed.

 

50 minutes ago, AxelVDP said:

Frozen Lance is often the only way your mage can finish off / one round an enemy, you obviously use it only when safe and/or in conjunction with canto. Having your mage in a mounted class can sometimes be more beneficial than keeping it in a standard mage class (talking about mid game without master classes), they keep up with the rest of the army and can provide good support through gambits+canto and repositional combat arts, and can still nuke stuff even harder with Frozen Lance (also they can chip away enemy mages with physical attacks if need be)

Problem is, magic combat arts require getting up close and personal, which is about as good an idea as robbing a police station (aka, really stupid) when you're frail. Especially since the stuff that would really warrant them (armors) tend to hit hard. So, long story short, I don't see the sudden hype for a magic attacking option that ain't even safe.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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27 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

Problem is, magic combat arts require getting up close and personal, which is about as good an idea as robbing a police station (aka, really stupid) when you're frail. Especially since the stuff that would really warrant them (armors) tend to hit hard. So, long story short, I don't see the sudden hype for a magic attacking option that ain't even safe.

???? what is it you don't understand in: "Frozen Lance is often the only way your mage can finish off / one round an enemy, you obviously use it only when safe and/or in conjunction with canto", you obviously don't go attacking enemies that can retaliate back, also frozen lance is actually not great on armor dudes, for them it's better to use magic that will double them, I don't have the calc on top of my head but I'm pretty sure you're not going to orko armors with frozen lance due to their high HP, but you definetly can orko other types of enemies like thieves (assuming obviously fiendish blow), a feat which other spells cannot achieve in the midgame

also, higher accuracy than spells, which if you're using dark magic/blizzard (aka: hubert/marianne) is very important (and all the previously listed benefits)

 

I'm not arguing you should turn all your mages into paladins and go around frozen lancing everything, there's obviously a tradeoff in utility when going this route, just saying that this option is heavily underrated and that they outperform basic mages in some situations

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Frozen lance work in tandem with magic weapons. You use frozen lance whit something like a steel or silver lance+ when you need the damage and arrow of indra+(lance are kinda the worst example here, because you don't get a magic lance in every route) when you need safety. 

Frozen lance whit a steel lance+ has 1 less might than Ragnarok and whit a silver lance is above Agnea's arrow. Both whitout counting the dex scaling. 

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1 hour ago, AxelVDP said:

???? what is it you don't understand in: "Frozen Lance is often the only way your mage can finish off / one round an enemy, you obviously use it only when safe and/or in conjunction with canto", you obviously don't go attacking enemies that can retaliate back, also frozen lance is actually not great on armor dudes, for them it's better to use magic that will double them, I don't have the calc on top of my head but I'm pretty sure you're not going to orko armors with frozen lance due to their high HP, but you definetly can orko other types of enemies like thieves (assuming obviously fiendish blow), a feat which other spells cannot achieve in the midgame

also, higher accuracy than spells, which if you're using dark magic/blizzard (aka: hubert/marianne) is very important (and all the previously listed benefits)

 

I'm not arguing you should turn all your mages into paladins and go around frozen lancing everything, there's obviously a tradeoff in utility when going this route, just saying that this option is heavily underrated and that they outperform basic mages in some situations

 

10 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Frozen lance work in tandem with magic weapons. You use frozen lance whit something like a steel or silver lance+ when you need the damage and arrow of indra+(lance are kinda the worst example here, because you don't get a magic lance in every route) when you need safety. 

Frozen lance whit a steel lance+ has 1 less might than Ragnarok and whit a silver lance is above Agnea's arrow. Both whitout counting the dex scaling. 

Well, whatever the case may be, I very, very seldom find magic combat arts to be a better option than spells. And in the case of Lightning Axe, never.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Frozen lance work in tandem with magic weapons. You use frozen lance whit something like a steel or silver lance+ when you need the damage and arrow of indra+(lance are kinda the worst example here, because you don't get a magic lance in every route) when you need safety. 

Frozen lance whit a steel lance+ has 1 less might than Ragnarok and whit a silver lance is above Agnea's arrow. Both whitout counting the dex scaling. 

The thing is, there are better units that can ORKO stuff without exploding when attacked, you’re sending incredibly squishy 4 move mages to the frontline (putting them in Physical Classes pre lv 30 for Canto is a worse idea because you’re sacrificing their useful spell lists to set up for a magic Weapon build).

If you want a Magic nuke then just feed all of your Mag stat boosters to Lysithea and give her Thyrsus, she’s only a few points away from OHKOing most maddening enemies thanks to her already high Mag stat.

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43 minutes ago, Ari Chan said:

The thing is, there are better units that can ORKO stuff without exploding when attacked, you’re sending incredibly squishy 4 move mages to the frontline (putting them in Physical Classes pre lv 30 for Canto is a worse idea because you’re sacrificing their useful spell lists to set up for a magic Weapon build).

If you want a Magic nuke then just feed all of your Mag stat boosters to Lysithea and give her Thyrsus, she’s only a few points away from OHKOing most maddening enemies thanks to her already high Mag stat.

Bold: I seriously doubt that. Looking at this...

https://imgur.com/a/r4bqbRQ

...you need an exorbitant amount of magic for her to one hit anything with her strongest spell (just to put things into perspective, the Assassins require 80 atk to OHKO. Everything else requires much more than that).

Edited by Shadow Mir

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36 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: I seriously doubt that. Looking at this...

https://imgur.com/a/r4bqbRQ

...you need an exorbitant amount of magic for her to one hit anything with her strongest spell (just to put things into perspective, the Assassins require 80 atk to OHKO. Everything else requires much more than that).

I said most maddening enemies not all, and she totally can one shot the Gremory and Swordmaster in the pic with Luna. Gremory Lysithea with at least 50 base mag(easy to achieve without excessive grinding considering mid-late game you can get as many Premium Magic Herbs from gardening as you want) + 8 from Ordelia Battlaion + 6 from Fiendish Blow + 5 from Dark Tomefaire +  2 from the Monk mastery skill + 1 from Luna = 72 effective Mt against all enemies regardless of their res, the map is also filled with mounted units who die horribly to Dark Spikes. That being said you only get 4 Luna uses and I only brought Lysithea up to compare with Magic Combat Art Users who will most likely fail to OHKO almost everything late game.

Edited by Ari Chan

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33 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: I seriously doubt that. Looking at this...

https://imgur.com/a/r4bqbRQ

...you need an exorbitant amount of magic for her to one hit anything with her strongest spell (just to put things into perspective, the Assassins require 80 atk to OHKO. Everything else requires much more than that).

I know a popular choice is to farm speed carrots, but I chose to farm +1 Str and + 1 Mag for LTC. She can often 1hko certain enemies throughout the run, the endgame units are a little bit far from reach unless you grind her but it doesnt remove her usage of 1shotting during the time she can. lets say 45 magic + 6 fiend + 3 magic staff (not thyrus) + 6-8 magic battalion + 18 Hades = 78-80 attack

4 hours ago, AxelVDP said:

???? what is it you don't understand in: "Frozen Lance is often the only way your mage can finish off / one round an enemy, you obviously use it only when safe and/or in conjunction with canto", you obviously don't go attacking enemies that can retaliate back, also frozen lance is actually not great on armor dudes, for them it's better to use magic that will double them, I don't have the calc on top of my head but I'm pretty sure you're not going to orko armors with frozen lance due to their high HP, but you definetly can orko other types of enemies like thieves (assuming obviously fiendish blow), a feat which other spells cannot achieve in the midgame

also, higher accuracy than spells, which if you're using dark magic/blizzard (aka: hubert/marianne) is very important (and all the previously listed benefits)

 

I'm not arguing you should turn all your mages into paladins and go around frozen lancing everything, there's obviously a tradeoff in utility when going this route, just saying that this option is heavily underrated and that they outperform basic mages in some situations

You bring up very important points, often combat arts are used to get that minor damage that can really help out. Especially early to mid game. And its a little different for mages, since their speed wont catch up to double as your front line physical users. So adding that small damage can be useful. I think combat arts that add that little bit of damage is either finish off an enemy (no retaliation) or increase damage to have someone else finish (physical unit who can take the hit), obviously using this combat art for former setting.

Out of my two CF runs, I ran Hubert as a DK in Hard but Dark Bishop as Maddening cause reaching lv 30 by Ch 17, so chose to add + 1 range to magic and Ch 17 and 18 have terrain that hinders mounted, but then again 6 move 4 range unmounted is better than 4 move 5 range. On Marriane case - I am doing GD now, and SS/CF/AM i have never gotten a healer to lv 30, HK seems difficult unless feeding. But thats my playthroughs and not everyones. 


For Hubert/Marriane + Frozen Lance, did you find it useful throughout and did you find the situation more often? I was looking through the posts and it makes sense being useful for these two units, especially early game. Would you consider them on the same level as "Tempest Lance, Heavy Draw, Helm Splitter, Monster Breaker, " C Tier where they are useful to get that damage in early game / mid game. The other variable @Ari chan brought up is that they are 4 move unit for a lot of the game (currently not sold on the pre mount magic before master class), meaning that a little less encountering this situation,

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20 minutes ago, Ari Chan said:

I said most maddening enemies not all, and she totally can one shot the Gremory and Swordmaster in the pic with Luna. Gremory Lysithea with at least 50 base mag(easy to achieve without excessive grinding considering mid-late game you can get as many Premium Magic Herbs from gardening as you want) + 8 from Ordelia Battlaion + 6 from Fiendish Blow + 5 from Dark Tomefaire +  2 from the Monk mastery skill + 1 from Luna = 72 effective Mt against all enemies regardless of their res, the map is also filled with mounted units who die horribly to Dark Spikes. That being said you only get 4 Luna uses and I only brought Lysithea up to compare with Magic Combat Art Users who will most likely fail to OHKO almost everything late game.

Gardening for speed carrots is probably the better option than Premium Magic Herbs, but you get quite a few Spirit Dusts (3-4, I think?) throughout the game, and there really isn't anyone else competing with her for it with healing spells at MAG/3 and whoever is your healer likely having a worse spell list than her.  With just those, it's hard to imagine she doesn't hit 50 base magic.

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1 hour ago, Ari Chan said:

The thing is, there are better units that can ORKO stuff without exploding when attacked, you’re sending incredibly squishy 4 move mages to the frontline (putting them in Physical Classes pre lv 30 for Canto is a worse idea because you’re sacrificing their useful spell lists to set up for a magic Weapon build).

If you want a Magic nuke then just feed all of your Mag stat boosters to Lysithea and give her Thyrsus, she’s only a few points away from OHKOing most maddening enemies thanks to her already high Mag stat.

I would not try that on anything that is not a dark knight, WL Annette, or some other advanced or master class, it's not a particoularly viable earlygame strategy. And you need to learn fiendish blow anyway. 

And magic weapons have much more might than anything else lategame. Blutbang whit beast fang is 23, frozen lance whit a silver lance+ and 30 dex is 25,  Crusher whit dust top everything whit 38 base might whitout factoring anything but would require some hit% boost. Just to put into perspective, whit the setup you used Marianne, assuming 45 mag instead of 50 for different growths, would get 90 might beast fang, just 2 points short of killing swordmasters. However, soul blade can pull that off if she is not res screwed.

Then, she can use rapier+ or armorslayer+  and soulblade for the armors and cavaliers, and grounder whit blutbang for the fliers. The first 2 may be contested by other sword users(if you even use them) but grounder is 100% free. And most of those things are going to be more accurate than dark magic. There is no mounted class whit swordfaire, but she can just chip whit a levin sword + if getting close is too risky, would still hit setup kills easily.

 

The main problem whit magic nuking is that you are limited to 1 thirsus while the tools to make an effective magic weapon build are more widespread. An effective weapon(optional if you get the art), a silver+, a magic weapon and you are fine. 

Lysithea has Luna, Dark spike and Seraphim, so she can actually nuke whit magic, but everyone else has less mag and little to no effective spells. For them the increased might and acess to effective abilities and arts is important because unless you push them to 65 magic they won't kill anything. If you like someone other than lysithea or want to use 2 mages, magic weapons should be considered.

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1 hour ago, Ari Chan said:

I said most maddening enemies not all, and she totally can one shot the Gremory and Swordmaster in the pic with Luna. Gremory Lysithea with at least 50 base mag(easy to achieve without excessive grinding considering mid-late game you can get as many Premium Magic Herbs from gardening as you want) + 8 from Ordelia Battlaion + 6 from Fiendish Blow + 5 from Dark Tomefaire +  2 from the Monk mastery skill + 1 from Luna = 72 effective Mt against all enemies regardless of their res, the map is also filled with mounted units who die horribly to Dark Spikes. That being said you only get 4 Luna uses and I only brought Lysithea up to compare with Magic Combat Art Users who will most likely fail to OHKO almost everything late game.

Luna? Hades? Better pray that 65 base hit doesn't fail you. Ordelia Sorcery Co.? You'd have to go out of your way to recruit Ferdinand, who's one of the harder recruits owing to his B support being locked until after the timeskip, because he's required too. Premium Magic Herbs? Those have the opportunity cost of you not being able to grow Speed Carrots instead. Dark Tomefaire? Have fun trying to reach Dark Knight, which I don't think is worth the hassle. Or getting to S+.

27 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Blutbang whit beast fang is 23

And is locked behind a pain in the ass paralogue, AND requires Umbral Steel, which cannot be farmed easily, to repair. AND has a mere 20 uses.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And is locked behind a pain in the ass paralogue, AND requires Umbral Steel, which cannot be farmed easily, to repair. AND has a mere 20 uses.

Silver Sword+ whit soukblade is more or less equal to it, but i am not sure if stats scaling on art is 30%,25% of something else entirely, so i used the consistent's one. Grounder kinda require blutbang, because a levin sword is too weak, but this is situational enought to not require many repairs i guess.

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1 hour ago, Flores Salicis said:

Gardening for speed carrots is probably the better option than Premium Magic Herbs, but you get quite a few Spirit Dusts (3-4, I think?) throughout the game, and there really isn't anyone else competing with her for it with healing spells at MAG/3 and whoever is your healer likely having a worse spell list than her.  With just those, it's hard to imagine she doesn't hit 50 base magic.

Yea I forgot you can also buy 1 from Anna's Secret shop and I believe you get 2 pre-skip so farming for additional Premium Magic Herbs isn't necessary.

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Luna? Hades? Better pray that 65 base hit doesn't fail you. Ordelia Sorcery Co.? You'd have to go out of your way to recruit Ferdinand, who's one of the harder recruits owing to his B support being locked until after the timeskip, because he's required too. Premium Magic Herbs? Those have the opportunity cost of you not being able to grow Speed Carrots instead. Dark Tomefaire? Have fun trying to reach Dark Knight, which I don't think is worth the hassle. Or getting to S+.

The Macuil Evil Repelling Co. Battalion in the Shop gives 7 Mag and 40 Hit at max rank if accuracy and recruiting Ferdinand are your problem, getting S+ Reason on Lysithea before chapter 17-18 for Dark Tomefaire is not hard thanks to her personal skill, and like Flores said above you get more than enough Spirit Dusts to boost Lysithea's Mag above 50.

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48 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Not that i think about it, does magic staff work whit levin swords and the like? It's not like a magic weapon user is going to equip Thyrsus.

Nope, only Reason and offensive Faith spells benefit from the staff effect (Thyrsus also doesn’t work on Utility spells like Physics, Warp, Rescue)

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I don't have much to add for detailed analysis except to say that I feel the positioning combat arts (particularly Reposition, though Draw Back is good too, and Shove/Smite/Swap are decent enough they I'll equip them over a third offensive combat art) are incredibly potent. They're immensely tactically flexible (they can be used for offensive plays and defensive ones) and incredibly useful on Maddening where you often have many units who die in 1 or 2 combats, allowing characters to take action and then be withdrawn to safety (or, if they have canto, the reposition/etc. can be used before they move for the same effect).

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17 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Not that i think about it, does magic staff work whit levin swords and the like? It's not like a magic weapon user is going to equip Thyrsus.

I’m fairly certain it does. Magic weapons use Magic Atk, and the Magic Staff boosts that stat. It also boosts Combat Arts like Lightning Axe, Frozen Lance, and so on. 

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I still think tempest lance and curved shot should be placed high because how valuable they are in the early game.

Combat arts i disagree being placed high are the more utility focused ones like break shot and encloser. Sure break shot is useful against monsters early but there are so few monsters int he early game it doesn't mean much. Encloser is a curious one, why use encloser when you can just kill them or use a gambit if you really need to stop a person from moving? 

The stat scaling combat arts. I haven't had much experience with them because I thought something like leveling up sword rank on Lysithea for a budding talent sounds terrible. Same thing Hubert getting lances early is a good strategy. Glowing ember haven't gotten to that on my maddening run but sounds great on Dimitri. 

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36 minutes ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

Encloser is a curious one, why use encloser when you can just kill them or use a gambit if you really need to stop a person from moving? 

Because gambits are not that accurate, and only have 1 or 2 uses.

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