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Rate the routes on difficulty


Alistair
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Disclaimer: I've only managed to beat Hard!Blue Lions and am currently on a Maddening run of the same, so I don't have first hand experience for most of the routes. That being said, I have a rough idea of the other routes, so this is how I would rate the relative difficulty of each route (primarily based on their Part Twos are since Part One is largely the same regardless of which route you take):

Easiest: Blue Lions. Access to gamebreakers Dimitri and Felix along with useful support units like Annette and Mercedes makes a lot of the game more bearable. Also has the largest recruitment pool AND you get Failnaught for some reason (side note, that totally should have been a thing on Crimson Flower. Like, maybe you'd get Failnaught if you kill Claude but you get the Immortal Corps if you spare him. Have that choice mean something in a gameplay context). 

Easy: Golden Deer. Access to Lysithea and their final boss is the only non-monster one in the game so you don't have to worry about breaking barriers. 

Difficult: SS!Black Eagles. You lose access to Edelgard (and to a lesser extent Hubert and Jeritza) but in return you get a lot of the Church of Seiros (including Catherine and Seteth who are pretty solid). 

Most difficult: CF!Black Eagles. Crimson Flower does give you Edelgard and Jeritza but in a game where most of your army is growth-dependent, limiting the amount of chapters caps a lot of unit's effectiveness. Plus, most of the Black Eagles (barring Edelgard and Petra) aren't that good combat-wise. Additionally, that final map is hellish because of the golems and fire terrain making movement difficult for non-fliers and the Immaculate One being a pain to deal with. 

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Well CF at least drops Chapter 13 (aka, the most hellish chapter on Maddening), and from what I saw, Jeritza is outright insane right out of the gate (huge bases, insane class with Counterattack mastery, Scythe of Sariel, and also only male character other than NG+ Byleth to get Darting Blow to become even more insane)

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1 hour ago, Kruggov said:

Well CF at least drops Chapter 13 (aka, the most hellish chapter on Maddening), and from what I saw, Jeritza is outright insane right out of the gate (huge bases, insane class with Counterattack mastery, Scythe of Sariel, and also only male character other than NG+ Byleth to get Darting Blow to become even more insane)

How does Jeritza get Darting Blow?

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I'd say your initial appraisal is about right. I haven't played through all of golden deer yet, but I can already tell that if I just want to check out and just Failnaught my way to more story cutscenes, I could probably do that. I might even do that cause I'd really like to beat verdant wind and post a big extended thoughts on the game here before 2020 in case the discussion dries up.

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So far my BL run on maddening has been immensely easier. Either I know what the mode is like or the Blue Lions class is way more OP than Black Eagles.

Silver Snow has been pretty tough early but once you get past Pallardo the game doesn't have anything harder and unfair as that level. 

Maddening mode's biggest problem is certain classes have huge biases in stats for certain classes. AKA enemy fliers and sword users. Everything else is mostly a pushover except for some war masters you barely see in part 2. Enemy mages are scary in part 1 but end up being the slowest enemy type late game. Same thing with enemy archers but an ever bigger extreme as being a complete joke in part 2. 

If you abuse the explore mechanics like the kitchen and garden. You can easily get a handful of units to double the non problematic enemy types with some speed carrots. That's what really breaks this games's difficulty. 

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I think Verdant Winds is probably the easiest, rather than Azure Moon. Yes, BL has the strongest overall roster (Dimitri, Felix, Mercedes all outstanding as you note), but later on that gap goes away, and on VW you get Immortal Corps (insane batallion/gambit, even better than King of Lions since it's ranged and fliers can use it). And the endgame of AM is nasty, while VW's is the easiest (oh no, a map whose gimmick is a swamp... except the enemy barely uses fliers and you should have a lot of 'em).

I suspect SS is probably tougher than CF. A Catherine who joins in Chapter 12 (along with Seteth) in no way makes up for the loss of Edelgard and now Jeritza. By all accounts Chapter 13 of SS is one of the single toughest things in the game, because you don't get an overpowered lord and gambit to help you out with it. I've also heard SS endgame is nasty on Maddening, but can't confirm.

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Golden Deers on maddening was way easier than Blue Lions for me because not only because of early Lysithea, but also Claude for being best lord after time skip by far.

Brave bow hit and run like in chapter 14 against the nasty pegasus knights is one of the most broken things in maddening.

Also final boss map and boss are really easy, even in maddening.

The final boss does not even have higher HP than in normal strangely.

Early game is a bit harder because Claude is no front unit, but the difference to Blue Lions is less than after time skip between both routes.

Edited by Lysithea
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14 hours ago, PPPPPPP270 said:

Silver Snow has been pretty tough early but once you get past Pallardo the game doesn't have anything harder and unfair as that level. 

 Oh man wait until endgame, final chapter SS on maddening has a legit claim to hardest chapter in the game.

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It depends on what you value, I guess. An easier early game but harder late game is probably overall easier than vice versa if you know what to expect and are good at planning ahead, but it could be more difficult if you haven't planned well for the dramatic spike in endgame difficulty.

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Also, speaking about BL specifically:

BL has the easiest early game due Felix's base offenses and Dedue's base defense. However, the last few chapters are probably "harder" than other routes due to the high number of war masters and magic users (many who have siege tomes).

It is also the route with the best support battalions. However, it has the lowest number of "good" flying battalions, which sort of hurts.

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4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I think Verdant Winds is probably the easiest, rather than Azure Moon. Yes, BL has the strongest overall roster (Dimitri, Felix, Mercedes all outstanding as you note), but later on that gap goes away, and on VW you get Immortal Corps (insane batallion/gambit, even better than King of Lions since it's ranged and fliers can use it). And the endgame of AM is nasty, while VW's is the easiest (oh no, a map whose gimmick is a swamp... except the enemy barely uses fliers and you should have a lot of 'em).

I suspect SS is probably tougher than CF. A Catherine who joins in Chapter 12 (along with Seteth) in no way makes up for the loss of Edelgard and now Jeritza. By all accounts Chapter 13 of SS is one of the single toughest things in the game, because you don't get an overpowered lord and gambit to help you out with it. I've also heard SS endgame is nasty on Maddening, but can't confirm.

I dunno - the Golden Deer honestly has the weakest initial roster, with arguably 3 units that are much worse off than everyone else (Lorenz, Raphael, and maybe Ignatz). That's gotta hurt.

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I would say that BE has the worst starting roster.

GD has Claude, Hilda, and Leonie with fairly good base stats. You have two units with Tempest Lance at base, as well as multiple ways of increasing damage output (Hilda personal, Leonie personal, Lorenz personal after Ch1). You also get access to Rally Strength and Rally Speed after Ch1, since Ignatz and Raphael learn their rallies at D rank.

BE route has Edelgard and Petra with good bases. Ferdinand only has okay bases and is your only unit with Tempest Lance, but his stats are worse than both Leonie and Hilda. You also have no rallies or ways to get more damage out of your units outside of Bernadetta's personal.

Edited by Silly
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2 hours ago, Silly said:

It depends on what you value, I guess. An easier early game but harder late game is probably overall easier than vice versa if you know what to expect and are good at planning ahead, but it could be more difficult if you haven't planned well for the dramatic spike in endgame difficulty.

It's all subjective, but I definitely don't think the earlygame of Maddening is that bad. Chapter 1 is dicey for sure (especially with no Divine Pulse) but after that? I have a hard time somebody would actually get stuck on Chapter 2, which is a relatively simple "bait enemies into your meat-grinder" FE tactics. Whereas we see people getting stuck on later maps like Chapter 13, Gronder 2, and the endgame maps reasonably often.

If the lategame maps in this game are easier than the early ones to you, you probably have a very good grasp of some of the advanced tactics (proper utility gambit use, dodge-tanking, one-turn shenanigans), in which case I refuse to believe that the earlygame would pose much trouble for you either, OR you grind a lot.

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24 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's all subjective, but I definitely don't think the earlygame of Maddening is that bad. Chapter 1 is dicey for sure (especially with no Divine Pulse) but after that? I have a hard time somebody would actually get stuck on Chapter 2, which is a relatively simple "bait enemies into your meat-grinder" FE tactics. Whereas we see people getting stuck on later maps like Chapter 13, Gronder 2, and the endgame maps reasonably often.

If the lategame maps in this game are easier than the early ones to you, you probably have a very good grasp of some of the advanced tactics (proper utility gambit use, dodge-tanking, one-turn shenanigans), in which case I refuse to believe that the earlygame would pose much trouble for you either, OR you grind a lot.

By difficult I mostly mean "difficult to complete in a reasonable timeframe". Playing slower definitely makes early maps a lot easier. But if you want to complete something like Ch 3 or Ch 5 (which is especially horrible) without taking a ton of turns then the maps are really annoying (Ch3 has really poor hitrates if you're playing fast due to the abundance of enemies in forests, whereas Ch5 is just a massive pain). On the other hand, later on in the game you have a bunch of tactics that can possibly be employed for increasing the speed and reliability of finishing maps.

Currently I think that the first 5 chapters on Maddening are the most "difficult", the later post-timeskip chapters (and Ch13 on some routes) are probably next on the list. Earlier post-timeskip chapters next, and then the easiest chapters in Maddening are likely chapters 6-12. Without proper knowledge and preparation though, I can definitely see the second category (later post-timeskip and Ch13) being harder, since enemy stat benchmarks are pretty high and there is a lot of stuff that you need to deal with that you might not be fully equipped to handle easily.

Edited by Silly
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On 11/10/2019 at 11:10 AM, Alistair said:

Disclaimer: I've only managed to beat Hard!Blue Lions and am currently on a Maddening run of the same, so I don't have first hand experience for most of the routes. That being said, I have a rough idea of the other routes, so this is how I would rate the relative difficulty of each route (primarily based on their Part Twos are since Part One is largely the same regardless of which route you take)

This is all barring NG+ right? If so, I'm inclined to agree with all your observations.

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3 hours ago, Silly said:

By difficult I mostly mean "difficult to complete in a reasonable timeframe". Playing slower definitely makes early maps a lot easier. But if you want to complete something like Ch 3 or Ch 5 (which is especially horrible) without taking a ton of turns then the maps are really annoying (Ch3 has really poor hitrates if you're playing fast due to the abundance of enemies in forests, whereas Ch5 is just a massive pain). On the other hand, later on in the game you have a bunch of tactics that can possibly be employed for increasing the speed and reliability of finishing maps.

Fair enough. That said when discussing difficulty I'm fine with assuming a variety of play speeds. Slow, methodical play rips Chapters 2-3 apart, whereas you'll need a far more advanced grasp of the available tactics to to the same to latergame maps whatever your playing speed. With that in mind there's no question to me that I consider the lategame more difficult. But again, subjective.

I agree that the second half (or so) of the pre-timeskip is the easiest overall regardless.

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14 hours ago, Silly said:

I would say that BE has the worst starting roster.

GD has Claude, Hilda, and Leonie with fairly good base stats. You have two units with Tempest Lance at base, as well as multiple ways of increasing damage output (Hilda personal, Leonie personal, Lorenz personal after Ch1). You also get access to Rally Strength and Rally Speed after Ch1, since Ignatz and Raphael learn their rallies at D rank.

BE route has Edelgard and Petra with good bases. Ferdinand only has okay bases and is your only unit with Tempest Lance, but his stats are worse than both Leonie and Hilda. You also have no rallies or ways to get more damage out of your units outside of Bernadetta's personal.

Maybe. But the initial roster of GD desperately needs improvement in the form of recruiting characters from other houses, as I see it (Lorenz is just bad all around, as is Raphael. And I'm not holding my breath on Ignatz turning into something worthwhile either). Only having one male unit worth anything (two if your Byleth is male) is a really shitty position to be in when two of your boosting personals require (and one is only for) male units.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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16 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Maybe. But the initial roster of GD desperately needs improvement in the form of recruiting characters from other houses, as I see it (Lorenz is just bad all around, as is Raphael. And I'm not holding my breath on Ignatz turning into something worthwhile either). Only having one male unit worth anything (two if your Byleth is male) is a really shitty position to be in when two of your boosting personals require (and one is only for) male units.

Lorenz isn't bad at all. He makes for a good mage. He's not Lysithea or Hubert good but he certainly gets the job done. His personal is also solid once you start using battalions, which is what, chapter 2?

Ignatz is a fine unit, pretty standard fare for this game (comparable with Bernadetta and Ashe with Bernadetta having a slight edge thanks to her personal and budding talent). Hit+20 is a great personal on Maddening.

You won't be persuaded re: Raphael so I won't bother explaining (again) how he's not as bad as you say in practice.

xxx

Blue Lions has such a huge early game advantage (the most Tempest Lance users with Ingrid, Dimitri and Sylvain, Rally Strength on Annette, Felix's bases, Dedue) it's folly to say they don't have the best start, especially on Maddening when the stats matter. I'd say if they didn't have one of Felix or Dedue they'd still have the best start - they have enough damage to make up for the former's absence and Sylvain can off-tank a couple hits thanks to his personal (and not getting doubled when using Training Lances). They might be better than the Eagles without either of them but that's hard to quantify (and more importantly only serves to show how bad the Black Eagles' early performance is for optimized play and has nothing to do with the Blue Lions).

Then comes Golden Deer, who have the characters Silly mentioned more than covering for Lysithea's weak start and the lower bases of other units. Claude works differently from the other two lords because of his preference for bows but he's still quite good. Hilda's personal is crazy early and you can do some fucked up shit with Fading Blow and Curved Shot early on while taking advantage of it. Leonie is a decent off-tank thanks to her personal on Maddening, like Sylvain but she's slightly better on Hard since she doubles early. Ignatz always hitting can be useful on Maddening early on and Rally Speed can make some riskier strategies work more often. Lysithea has fat chip until she starts sniping horses/everything that doesn't have a the magic immunity barrier.

The Black Eagles just do not compare. Edelgard and Petra are great at the beginning, yes, and Hubert is comparable to Lysithea, but otherwise their early units are worse versions of other routes. Bernadetta I like a lot because of her personal early on (+5 damage is just good, man) but she has a hard time hitting unlike Ignatz and being better than Ashe is something most students can say...and at least Ashe saves you a few hundred gold on keys if you don't use a Thief or Assassin. Ferdinand doesn't get Lance of Ruin so early on he's a worse Sylvain. I like his personal late but 15 avoid early is not a lot. Caspar has a decent personal for Maddening but he does not have decent bases for it so his main contribution will be "wait next to this enemy so I can hit them please." Not getting early Fading Blow (which again you can make nasty plays with) also hurts. Dorothea is fine, I guess, but until she gets Thoron she's not any better than, say, Annette or Lorenz, and Hubert's early chip is better.

The late game depends too much on how you train your students' ranks and it can go in so many different directions that it's impossible to tell which house has the best students.

In terms of map design and difficulty, the only really hard late Azure Moon chapters are the last two and they aren't really that bad, they just have a lot of siege tomes which is annoying if you listen to bad players and don't use Ward. The final boss's 30 range can be a bit tricky to account for but I find she tends to focus the unit with the lowest defense no matter what (except the first attack which always goes for Dimitri if it can, I think) so you can manage it easily.

CF's final chapter was also pretty easy, though - turns out Raging Storm + Stride is good. The enemies on the sides would be threatening if you needed to go that way at all, but there is no reason to (oh boy a chest on the final map) unless you want unique dialogues with Catherine/Annette. The flier reinforcements are tricky, though, so I'd put this one above Azure Moon's.

I can't speak about late SS/VW yet, but from what I've heard of SS its final map is a wild ride on Maddening. I'll withhold judgment until I've cleared them.

Edited by De Geso
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CF final chapter has a lot of really poor terrain, and fair number problematic enemy Falcon Knights. The terrain can be mitigated by having a good number of flying units, but you will have to have some way of dealing with the Falcon Knights, unless you did a lot of setup and can one-turn the map. The boss itself is mostly a big HP sponge that you can chew through rather quickly with Raging Storm and Brave weapons.

SS final chapter has a really annoying gimmick, in that the majority of enemies have Miracle. However, it is also the easiest map to "accidentally LTC", because the boss starts within 10 tiles of your entire army. It doesn't take much brainpower to realize "hey, I can just use stride and then the majority of my army can dogpile the boss on turn 1". The boss is a slightly stronger version of the CF route's boss. Mostly just a big HP sponge.

BL final chapter has a lot of problematic enemies. There are a lot of mages with long range magic, as well as War Masters that have ridiculous stats. Another really annoying gimmick is that as soon as you enter the boss room, four mages with siege tomes will spawn. These are ambush spawns on Maddening, which is a very big problem. If you deal with all of these and get to the boss, then there shouldn't be much of an issue. Like the other bosses, the BL boss is mostly a big HP sponge that gets wrecked by Brave weapons.

The GD final chapter doesn't really have any super horrible gimmicks besides the abundance of poor terrain. If you have a lot of fliers you should just be able to clear the map while doing typical flier shenanigans (kill an enemy on PP, canto to a location where you can bait 1-2 enemies on EP, repeat next turn). The boss itself is definitely the strongest statistically, and is therefore the most threatening to engage. However, the boss kind of just stands there waiting for you, so you can take your sweet time routing the map and then setting up a kill on him.

Overall, the GD final chapter is probably the easiest because it is the most like a typical map, where you just go around killing stuff until you eventually get to and kill the boss. If you have a lot of fliers then the map gets easier. The SS final chapter can be annoying, but should also be very doable, especially if you can realistically kill the boss in 1 or 2 turns. CF and BL maps are the "hardest" maps, though both have ways of making the map a lot easier. CF endgame is significantly easier if you have a lot of fliers. If you have a lot of ground units then dealing with the Falcon Knights is a nightmare, since they have so much movement advantage over you. BL endgame is significantly easier if you have a strong EP unit with Retribution (either a dodgetank or Vantage/Wrath Dimitri), as that makes dealing with siege tomes infinitely easier. Having some way to reliably ORKO War Masters is also a big plus, as they are actually somewhat problematic if none of your units can ORKO.

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2 hours ago, De Geso said:

You won't be persuaded re: Raphael so I won't bother explaining (again) how he's not as bad as you say in practice.

Because being overspecialized to his extent is not a path to being a good unit. Why can't you see that?! If he had something that made up for being slower than cold molasses, maybe I'd understand, but I struggled to find him useful in freaking hard mode - no way in the seven hells is he going to have a modicum of value on Maddening if he cannot cut it on hard mode.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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Lorenz is pretty good on hard GD. I haven't completed it or tried maddening. His great HP and defensive growths make him a unique frontline mage. Raphael is much worse than Lorenz: Raphael generally does less damage, takes more damage, and is rangelocked unless you train him in bows or give him a hand axe with which he'll likely miss half the time.

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I don't understand the draw of the bad units on a route being slightly better or worse than other bad units. Ideally all of them are being replaced or relegated to a support role anyways.

It doesn't matter whether a unit is the worst or the second worst in the game when regardless of what happens I am probably just going to use them for a few chapters and then stick them on the bench.

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BE route has Edelgard, Petra, and Ferdinand as attractive long-term units. Everyone else is either more of a support unit (or mage) or benchworthy. GD route has Claude, Hilda, and Leonie as good units. Both routes also have Sylvain for free, which puts you at 5 good combat units (including Byleth) already. Add in some support units (healers and someone to carry support gambits such as stride) and you don't even need to add that many cross recruits to round out your team.

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