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Remaster a smash character - Round 06: Kirby


Zapp Branniglenn
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I think a lot about how I'd adjust Smash characters. To make their moves better, to make them represent their series better, aesthetic adjustments, all kinds of stuff. Some of these guys have been in Smash long enough that not many people seem to question how they look or play. Let's get into it. If it were up to you, how would you change these characters? It can be anything: Balance updates, more suitable moves from their games of origin, adjustments to taunts, victory animations, skins and costumes, better sound effects. I'm thinking each round ought to last 48 hours.

Mario 

Spoiler

Gameplay

  • Ditch the Brawl D-air. I don't like the move's look and it serves little purpose compared to his other attacks. Mario spinning is a pretty big staple between spin jumps in SMW or the spin attack in Galaxy, but this move fails to represent either. The drill kick has always been better both as a move and referencing the spin jump, and now that they've taken it away from Dr. Mario, it's ripe for the taking. Give it a light meteor on the final hit because Mario really struggles against gimping vertical recoveries without putting himself at risk. 
  • The Fireball should have physics mirroring the platformer games. It should travel faster, not lose speed and bounce predictably. And also should do more damage than a pitiful 5%. Mario's fireball being so slow has its own advantages and applications but I never feel threatened by it. It's low hitstun can make it safer to tank a hit than block it even. As a more straightforward projectile, fireball will make more sense to low level players, be harder to react to, and help Mario force the approach.
  • F-air has early and late hits that don't meteor, perhaps to punish the player for mis-spacing the move. However, the meteor has become so easy to land by now that I question why these hitboxes still exist at all at this point
  • Change his final smash. It's not referencing anything and is often ineffective. If I had to design one, I'd make it so that Mario tosses his cap offscreen and then the T-Rex from Odyssey comes on stage. He roars, stunning opponents in the immediate vicinity, then stampedes forward in the direction Mario was facing.

Aesthetics

  • Swap out Mario's victory animation where he winds up and punches toward the camera. It's boring enough that I'd take anything else. What comes to mind is Mario's fanfare from picking up a star in Mario 64. Maybe even have a power star as part of the animation. Or give us an animation where Cappy pops off and Mario sort of smiles and scratches his head.
  • Costumes costumes costumes. Mario has so many to potentially draw from and Odyssey has quite a few too. I know Mario has more costumes than any character but really this roster in general needs more fashion.
  • Mario's slip and fall taunt referencing the original Donkey Kong ought to have the appropriate sound effect, or really anything since no sound makes this taunt kind of awkward. Also with taunts being able to be cancelled in Ultimate you're allowed to slow it down a bit or have Mario lie there playing dead until the player moves which I'd think people would love.
  • Make one of Mario's potential blastzone death sounds be the OOF! from Mario 64. I love that sound bite.
  • Make one of Mario's potential Star KO death sounds be "Mamma miaaaaa!"

 

Edited by Glennstavos
Gotta update the title
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This sounds pretty fun, why not?

Agreed with changing the d-air, except I would give him his down-b tornado back of course.

Make his moveset more fire based and maybe give him a hammer for smash attacks to represent Paper Mario, Mario and luigi, and so forth.

I can't think of much for Mario, but that would be a start.

 

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6 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

This sounds pretty fun, why not?

Agreed with changing the d-air, except I would give him his down-b tornado back of course.

Make his moveset more fire based and maybe give him a hammer for smash attacks to represent Paper Mario, Mario and luigi, and so forth.

I can't think of much for Mario, but that would be a start.

 

I'd rather have paper mario as a separate character, it's honestly the only first party character that i really want at this point.

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5 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I'd rather have paper mario as a separate character, it's honestly the only first party character that i really want at this point.

I suppose this could work, but I was speaking in a sense of just remastering Mario's moveset.

His moveset is just very plain, and I think a hammer would remedy that.

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Interesting. Here's what I thought of:

I wouldn't want him to lose FLUDD, but I also would want to see him use Cappy in some of his moves. It might not be a bad idea to replace the cape with throwing Cappy. If Mario really needs an attack that reflects projectiles and spins enemies around, Cappy can do that. Either that, or keep the cape and make Cappy his forward-aerial attack. What do you guys think?

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9 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Interesting. Here's what I thought of:

I wouldn't want him to lose FLUDD, but I also would want to see him use Cappy in some of his moves. It might not be a bad idea to replace the cape with throwing Cappy. If Mario really needs an attack that reflects projectiles and spins enemies around, Cappy can do that. Either that, or keep the cape and make Cappy his forward-aerial attack. What do you guys think?

The only way I would want him to keep fludd is if the hover or rocket nozzle was his recovery. I suppose cappy could work, not big on the idea personally but I don't see why it couldn't work.

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2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

The only way I would want him to keep fludd is if the hover or rocket nozzle was his recovery. I suppose cappy could work, not big on the idea personally but I don't see why it couldn't work.

Oh; I agree; the down special is almost useless. It might be good to replace his up special with hover or rocket nozzle; probably rocket nozzle. 

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On 11/16/2019 at 7:10 AM, Glennstavos said:

And also should do more damage than a pitiful 5%.

Not for such a small fireball, no.

20 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

His moveset is just very plain, and I think a hammer would remedy that.

We already have three other hammer users in the game (Kirby, King Dedede and Ice Climbers), so it's hardly going to make his moveset stand out.

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1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

We already have three other hammer users in the game (Kirby, King Dedede and Ice Climbers), so it's hardly going to make his moveset stand out.

Weak argument, we have how many characters using fists/kicks in attacks? Three isn't alot, also considering Sword wielders, this argument is pretty poor, really. Also, if the dev's do their job right, it's not impossible to make them different.

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Hmmm…sure!

Attacks

  • Make Cappy Side-B (like how Vanguard suggested, but making it a hard press whereas the cape is a tap of Side-B)
  • Have FLUDD be pointed downwards for recovery when in midair
  • Make the ground pound D-Air
  • Change F-Smash to a wind-up lunch (like in one of his victory animations)

Aesthetics

  • Import voice clips from Odyssey
  • Change a victory animation to the iconic flag pole descent
  • Have the Fireball look closer to 3D world, but with Ultimate’s cartoony fire effect
  • Have the Super Jump sound effect be closer to 3D Land/World (aside from the purple coins of course)
  • Have Cappy’s eyes appear during one of his idle animations
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I've noticed that a lot of the Smash 64 vets had more improvised movesets with generic attacks, compared to newcomers in later titles who all got more organic movesets based on material from their own games. Mario's one of the fighters I'd heavily revamp to better match his games. I'm all for making his moveset more hammer-focused; he was using hammers before the Ice Climbers or King Dedede!

Move changes:

  • Nspecial: Hammer Bro
  • Uspecial: Cappy Spin
  • Ftilt: Cappy Toss
  • Fsmash: Hammer
  • Dash: Dive
  • Usmash: Jump Uppercut
  • Dtilt: Sweep Kick
  • Dsmash: Hammer Spin
  • Nair: Spin
  • Fair: Hammer Swing
  • Bair: Reverse Hammer Spin
  • Uair: Overhead Tennis Swing
  • Dair: Ground Pound
  • Fthrow: Super Kick
  • Uthrow: Coin Block
  • Dthrow: Spin Stomp
  • Final Smash: Mega Mario

Yes, that's right, I'd switch the Fireball move out completely. The Fire Flower is a staple item, so I figure it might as well function more like it does in the Mario games; anyone who picks up a Fire Flower can shoot bouncing fireballs with it until it runs out of ammo. Mario's new Nspecial could have him throwing Hammers like when using the Hammer Bro Suit in SMB3.

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Round 2 is Donkey Kong! I mistakenly thought it was Link and so hadn't been brainstorming the ape so somebody else take the initiative. All I immediately think of is that his voice lines should absolutely be swapped with his usual voice in current DKC and various other Mario games. He's sounded like a real life ape for far too long in Smash

 

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For starters, I'd give DK some Barrel moves to better reflect his gameplay. His new Fspecial is the Rocket Barrel from DKCR, which can be angled upward or downward. His new Uspecial is Barrel Cannon, which launches him upward and can be angled to the left or right. And his Dspecial could have him throw barrels, usually wooden but sometimes explosive or steel. His neutral special could become the Coconut Gun, while the Giant Punch could maybe move to the Fsmash. Likewise the Ground Slap could become his Dtilt or Dsmash.

DK can keep the chest beating taunt, but I would replace one of the other two with a quick bongo session. Probably the one where he shakes himself, as rapidly banging the bongos could have a similar feel. His third taunt could become his Banana Get animation from DK64.

  • Nspecial: Coconut Gun
  • Fspecial: Rocket Barrel
  • Uspecial: Barrel Cannon
  • Dspecial: Barrel Throw
  • Fsmash: Giant Punch
  • Utilt: Uppercut
  • Dtilt: Ground Slap
  • STaunt: Banana Get
  • Dtaunt: Bongo Beat
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Replacing moves on characters is difficult to theorize since no doubt a lot of players are attached to those existing moves in some way. However, in my ideal Smash where I have all the time in the world to make such hard decisions, those existing moves I'm trying to replace would probably go to other characters that they would fit for. So Donkey Kong

Spoiler

Gameplay

  • It kind of boggles the mind that his Up B is anything but blasting out of a barrel. I appreciate updates over the years to what used to be a hilariously bad recovery move, but I think the "spin with your limbs out like a helicopter" is generically cartoony enough that it could be anybody's Up B or Side B. I would also add a mini game to the Barrel Blast, where it turns from left to right (if DK is facing right) and the player must aim their way to the ledge with good timing. This not only adds a layer of skill and variety of launch angles to the move, but the time it takes to aim gives their opponent time to judge their intended launch trajectory and intercept.
  • Headbutt also seems like one of those cartoony moves that any character could use and like Spinning Kong I appreciate updates to it (like super armor). But I'd sooner make Side B have DK riding Rambi the Rhino. Gameplay wise it controls just like Wario's Bike complete with jumping off of it. But when used offstage, DK and Rambi fall like a rock which affords almost no recovery distance. I don't think DK ought to have a large suite of recovery options. 
  • Hand Slap is a move I really like both in the air and on the ground. But honestly I'd just replace Dsmash with the grounded Hand Slap and D-air with the aerial Hand Slap. 
    • as for what DK's new Down B ought to be...I don't really know. He's not a character with a wealth of special abilities to draw from. DK throwing a barrel as a projectile feels like a no brainer but I imagine Sakurai refrained from this when he made the barrel an item that any character could throw. We could put his Headbutt here. Since I'm a little sad that his bongos are gone completely, I'd like a move involving them but I can't think of anything that makes sense in terms of gameplay that doesn't sound annoying. Maybe each B press is a beat and an A press is an off beat. Each beat pop grounded opponents into the air while each off beat windboxes airborne opponents toward DK. Then another Down B press ends the move with a big clap with a lot of damage and knockback.
  • Dash attack jump cancelling like in DKC sounds very fun but I'd have to pass since it's such a good combo move already and I wouldn't want people getting dash attacked into a F-air dunk near a ledge and dying. All I would do to this move is have it slip off ledges and platforms since I miss moves that would do that in older smash games.

Aesthetic

  • Replace all of DK's sound clips with his modern voice actor. Being such a lovable guy, he doesn't need to sound like a real life ape.
  • In the current game, DK looks real mad when Giant Punch is fully charged. I like that a lot, but I would prefer if DK simply looked mad if his damage percentage surpasses 100%. They should do more aesthetic changes like that when a character is at high damage.
  • Adjust DK's chest beating taunt with his more adventurous "ooh-hoo-hoo!" he does at the start of a level in modern DKC games. And if DK is above 100% and his expressions naturally become meaner, then it can be his current, mean chest beating taunt.
  • Replace DK's shaking his fur taunt with either bongos, him crouching down and blowing daffodils (complete with a small windbox), or him jumping up with his eyes popping out of his head. Like when he's about to be exploded in the opening scene of DKC1 since I think an expression like that is perfect for screenshots.
  • Replace DK's victory animation where he shakes his hands together above his head with the dance he does when collecting a golden banana in DK 64. Minus him bowing forward, since that looks weird with DK's ape anatomy. I just like characters doing a thumbs up sign.
  • Adjust DK's victory animation where he backflips and poses with him being launched from a barrel in the background, slamming the ground for the freeze frame, and then doing that same flexing pose afterward.

 

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38 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I didn't know balance was supposed to be considered here. Either way, fast characters can do crazy stuff like that, why not DK? I was speaking from a for fun POV really.

You can post a balance patch wishlist if you like. Like I said in the OP, it's however you'd change that character. You don't need to justify every change if you don't want to.

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I believe today should be day 3, for Link? Cause my immediate changes would be:

  • Base his design off the Oraclr games, with an alt based on his Breath of the Wild appearance
  • MAKE. HIM. LEFT. HANDED.
Edited by Perkilator
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Round 3 is Link. Most of what I'd change for this iteration is further representing this particular game of origin.

Spoiler

Gameplay

  • Have F-tilt fire sword beams at 0% damage instead of F-Smash 1. It would play and look more sensibly
  • Change Up B to Revali's Gale. It feels like this Link is only half trying to represent BotW with only his bombs changed. Revali's Gale can also incorporate the paraglider with a stamina mechanic that can be opened and closed like Peach's Parasol, but I wouldn't, personally. The grounded version of the move would also have a hitbox that could kill vertically at very high percents, since Link still deserves a good OoS option that kills in a pinch.
    • As for the grounded version of spin attack, make that his D-Smash and only have it be one, powerful spin. Since I generally agree every iteration should have Spin Attack somewhere in their moveset.
  • When Link perfect parries a projectile, give him the unique ability to reflect it and have the visual of Daruk's Protection display when it happens. I might also limit it to three charges per stock both for canon reasons and because Link's hylian shield is already a reusable answer to projectiles
  • Similarly, when Link perfect Parries a melee attack, have him deflect with his shield in the animation and play the sound and slow down effect from BotW. This is mostly aesthetic but it would have the gameplay consequence of Link facing his attacker if he isn't already.
  • Instead of having to pick up your own arrows, have Link fire three arrows when reaching full charge

Aesthetics

  • Reskinning moves with Champion weapons: Have Link wield Mipha's Trident for D-Air, Scimitar of the Seven for F-Air, the Great Eagle Bow on Neutral B, and boulder breaker for F-Smash. F-Smash should be the only one that requires a significant animation change as Link swings the club horizontally, then spins if the button is pressed again for another swing. And the first swing would deal KO worthy knockback unlike the current version of the move.
  • When it comes to costumes, Link may have the best set in the game. All are taken from Breath of the Wild or referencing a previous game in the Fierce Deity and Skyloft outfits. Really my only critique is that the Skyloft outfit could stand to look more like in its game of origin. I'm also bothered by the green tunic lacking trousers underneath, but hey, that's how it looks in Breath of the Wild so I see why they felt the need.
  • Make it so Link's Jab 3 is a backhanded spin slash like the typical combo finisher in BotW.
  • Replace Link's Up taunt since it's the exact same as one of his victory animations (where it looks cooler). The new taunt will have a cooking pot appear as Link grills various ingredients.
  • Make a victory animation of Link doing a trick while shield surfing. Replace the one where he slashes twice and poses.

 

Edited by Glennstavos
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12 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

DK throwing a barrel as a projectile feels like a no brainer but I imagine Sakurai refrained from this when he made the barrel an item that any character could throw.

To be fair, Mario currently can use Fireballs even though the Fire Flower is an item (that works like a flamethrower, for some reason), Link gets Bombs even though we have the Bob-Omb,  Samus has a Screw Attack special while there is also a Screw Attack item, Fox gets a Blaster even though we have the Ray Gun, Ness gets a bat even though we have the Home Run Bat, Ice Climbers and King Dedede get hammers even though we have the Hammer and Golden Hammer, etc. There's no reason DK can't use barrels as projectiles.

As for Link, I personally would like to see his Smash moveset be a composite of various Links. His costumes could consist of OoT Link, Dark Link, TP Link, Ordon Goatherder, SS Link, Skyloft Trainee, Champion's Tunic, and Hylian Tunic. His sword and shield will change to match the skin he is using; Ordon Goatherder uses the Ordon Sword and Shield, Skyloft Trainee uses the Practice Sword, Hylian Tunic uses the Traveler's Sword and Shield, and the rest use their respective versions of the Master Sword and Hylian Shield.

I'd like to pioneer neutral charge attacks with Link's Spin Attack. Press the button, hold it, then release to unleash the spin. His Uspecial could become Revali's Gale, which would have Link soar high, then pull out the Glider to float slowly down. For that matter, Link could gain use of the Glider similar to how Peach has her hovering double jump. Link should get the Clawshot back, and maybe use the Power Glove in his throws.

  • Uspecial: Revali's Gale
  • Ncharge: Spin Attack
  • Ftilt: Megaton Hammer
  • Fsmash: Biggoron's Sword
  • Dsmash: Biggoron's Sword Spin
  • Fair: Megaton Hammer Swing
  • Grab: Clawshot
  • New Taunt: Link plays the "Secret Found" theme on the Ocarina of Time.

 

Edited by Lord_Brand
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2 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

To be fair, Mario currently can use Fireballs even though the Fire Flower is an item (that works like a flamethrower, for some reason), Link gets Bombs even though we have the Bob-Omb,  Samus has a Screw Attack special while there is also a Screw Attack item, Fox gets a Blaster even though we have the Ray Gun, Ness gets a bat even though we have the Home Run Bat, Ice Climbers and King Decede get hammers even though we have the Hammer and Golden Hammer, etc. There's no reason DK can't use barrels as projectiles.

The vast majority of those are characters using items not from their game of origin and the Fire Flower situation only proves my point about where Sakurai's head may have been at when he put barrels from Donkey Kong in Smash. He doesn't want an item that does precisely what another character's special move does. At least back in Smash 64 when Smash Bros as a concept was still in its infancy. In all of Donkey Kong's stages (except Jungle Japes from Melee) barrels exist to shoot characters around. The existence of that as a mechanic is also probably why he cooked up the Spinning Kong for DK so that he can feel unique.

But whatever the case none of this discussion matters for this thread. If you want Donkey Kong to throw a barrel, that's fine. I just don't.

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DK's barrels wouldn't produce items when broken open. They also couldn't be picked up and thrown by other players. Rolling barrels was DK's original move, hence the prevalence of barrels in the DKC series. But for his neutral special, I'm fine with him using his Coconut Gun from DK64. I'm all for representing as many games in a given fighter's series as possible.

I'm tempted to suggest a Weapon Wheel Dspecial for Link that allows him to switch between the Boomerang, Whip, Bow, Bomb Arrows, Bombs, Remote Bomb, Magic Rod, and Magic Boomerang for his Neutral Special, but I'm concerned that it would disrupt his flow of play. Right now he has a pretty good flow between the Bow, Boomerang, and Bombs. Use one projectile, then follow up with another. Weapon Wheel switching would disrupt that flow. On the other hand, maybe the Boomerang and Bombs can remain in their respective slots, and the Bow can be swapped out for the Pegasus Boots, Mirror Shield, or Megaton Hammer? The Weapon Wheel would then become a Shield Special, much like Inkling's ink tank refill.

  • Bow - Quick long-range projectile.
  • Pegasus Boots - Hold to charge up a dash.
  • Mirror Shield - Reflects projectiles that are energy or magic-based.
  • Megaton Hammer - Powerful close-range weapon that can bury or spike opponents.

 

Edited by Lord_Brand
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Link has a lot of possibilities, so I wont go into too much detail, but I would like him to be able to play his Ocarina, as a taunt.

Fire, Ice, and light arrows would be kind of fun.

Make the spin attack like Melee, a hard single hit that also sends on that downward angle with the sour hit.

Change his boomerang to the Lizafols version from BotW.

Maybe give him the Fire Rod or something as well?

Make his down tilt something else, like the grass cutter from SC2.

 

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