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Let's revise Final Fantasy VIII's combat system


Jotari
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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

The issue isn't that the system can be broken, its about how crazy easy it is to break.

See: pretty much any other FF game. Which isn't a bad thing by any means, if the player puts in the time to play triple triad to get the cards, it's their right to do what they want with them. I guess I don't understand why, if you played to get them, you shouldn't be able to mod them for things. The great ones are one of a kind for modding unless you do the CC, which isn't the easiest thing to figure out by yourself.

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1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

See: pretty much any other FF game. Which isn't a bad thing by any means, if the player puts in the time to play triple triad to get the cards, it's their right to do what they want with them. I guess I don't understand why, if you played to get them, you shouldn't be able to mod them for things. The great ones are one of a kind for modding unless you do the CC, which isn't the easiest thing to figure out by yourself.

No, not to the extent of Final Fantasy VIII. No other game in the series comes anywhere near close in this regard (at least of what I've played, which is the first ten plus XII).

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

No, not to the extent of Final Fantasy VIII. No other game in the series comes anywhere near close in this regard (at least of what I've played, which is the first ten plus XII).

If you arent abusing Quick Trick in FFX, then you arent playing it right. Of course, it was so unfair, they nerfed it in the international version, which says alot, really.

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10 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

If you arent abusing Quick Trick in FFX, then you arent playing it right. Of course, it was so unfair, they nerfed it in the international version, which says alot, really.

Quick Hit, which is obtained at the end of the game.

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20 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

See: pretty much any other FF game.

not really.

in the original FF 7 you had to work hard in order to get all the lv4 limits, not to mention getting the Mime, Quadra and Knights of the Round materias by rising chocobos.

you had at least 5 characters with multiple-hit limit breaks, plus a summon materia that could be used by anyone else who did not have those kind of limits(and even then you could just lv it up in order to obtain a copy).

the materia builds were way more tactical compared to the Junction system, simply because you had more variety and freedom of choice. plus, you needed to think well about how to approach the Emerald/Ruby weapon, unless you already had all end-game materias leveled up to the max.

 

in FF 8 all you have to do is just craft the ultimate weapons for each character and you're done, exception made for Quistis and Zell due to skill books/items.

the only thing that matters in FF 8 are the limits anyway, since GF are useful only from early to mid game in terms of damage due to them being limited to 1 hit only.

the difference is that the characters who actually can perform multiple hits on limits are only 4, two of wich are time-based, while one requires commands input and another is based on RNG, so it's not even reliable.

all you had to do in FF 8 in order to defeat hard enemies was just to spam limit breaks. no tactics required, just trigger Renzokuken with Squall over and over and that's it.

the Ultima weapon in Ultimecia's castle is probably the worst secret boss in the entire franchise, but not because of how it's setup, rather due to the limits system being broken.

Edited by Fenreir
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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Quick Hit, which is obtained at the end of the game.

Sure, but your argument wasn't how early it was usable, just whether or not it broke the game.

 

2 hours ago, Fenreir said:

not really.

in the original FF 7 you had to work hard in order to get all the lv4 limits, not to mention getting the Mime, Quadra and Knights of the Round materias by rising chocobos.

you had at least 5 characters with multiple-hit limit breaks, plus a summon materia that could be used by anyone else who did not have those kind of limits(and even then you could just lv it up in order to obtain a copy).

the materia builds were way more tactical compared to the Junction system, simply because you had more variety and freedom of choice. plus, you needed to think well about how to approach the Emerald/Ruby weapon, unless you already had all end-game materias leveled up to the max.

 

in FF 8 all you have to do is just craft the ultimate weapons for each character and you're done, exception made for Quistis and Zell due to skill books/items.

the only thing that matters in FF 8 are the limits anyway, since GF are useful only from early to mid game in terms of damage due to them being limited to 1 hit only.

the difference is that the characters who actually can perform multiple hits on limits are only 4, two of wich are time-based, while one requires commands input and another is based on RNG, so it's not even reliable.

all you had to do in FF 8 in order to defeat hard enemies was just to spam limit breaks. no tactics required, just trigger Renzokuken with Squall over and over and that's it.

the Ultima weapon in Ultimecia's castle is probably the worst secret boss in the entire franchise, but not because of how it's setup, rather due to the limits system being broken.

If your logic of something being broken is "create the ultimate weapons.", well, what would be the point of them if they sucked, exactly? I don't want them to be like FF5 Excalibur, where you can't use the thing since most the enemies at that point absorb Holy. Renzokuken actually takes some effort, though. Unlike Quick Trick, FF7 limit breaks, FF9 Dynes, etc. And Irvine's limit break has cost to put out there. Hmm I don't remember the materia system being to complex, for my first playthrough, mind you, I used magic breath and never switched it off, not too tactical for a first run.

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1 hour ago, lightcosmo said:

Sure, but your argument wasn't how early it was usable, just whether or not it broke the game.

 

If your logic of something being broken is "create the ultimate weapons.", well, what would be the point of them if they sucked, exactly? I don't want them to be like FF5 Excalibur, where you can't use the thing since most the enemies at that point absorb Holy. Renzokuken actually takes some effort, though. Unlike Quick Trick, FF7 limit breaks, FF9 Dynes, etc. And Irvine's limit break has cost to put out there. Hmm I don't remember the materia system being to complex, for my first playthrough, mind you, I used magic breath and never switched it off, not too tactical for a first run.

The argument is how easy it is to do. If you play through the entire game before you get powerful stats then you're not actually breaking the game. Just the end game.

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39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The argument is how easy it is to do. If you play through the entire game before you get powerful stats then you're not actually breaking the game. Just the end game.

Why shouldn't after game content be considered? It's no different really.

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2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Why shouldn't after game content be considered? It's no different really.

It's not that after game content shouldn't be considered, it's that everything else should be considered. You're talking 10% fat to full fat.

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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's not that after game content shouldn't be considered, it's that everything else should be considered. You're talking 10% fat to full fat.

Agreed.

It's like all I heard of Freikugel being broken in SMT Nocturne and a physically-oriented main character being the best. That was bad advice, because Freikugel exists for a mere 2% of the game, and it isn't all that strong even. And, the Demi-Fiend from what I played would make far better sense going Vit in the hospital, then Mag until you get about 10-15 points, then you get the Nirvana Magatama for Divine Shot, and at that point you run a dual-cannon build with all your points going into Str. Focus + Divine Shot/Spiral Viper/Deadly Fury/Deathbound on things without weaknesses, and when something has a weakness or is resistant to Phys, you use a spell, Tornado being great in power and availability. Keep a skill slot open for Mind's Eye on Hard. You only pivot to full physical when Freikugel comes at the very top of the final dungeon

To stay on topic for Final Fantasy, Enemy Skills > KotR, because Enemy Skills can carry you for a much bigger slice of the game, and takes less time to obtain/get the good stuff. It does taper off and lose to KotR in the end, but it's a "Jagen" of FF, albeit one with "Stefan-esque" recruitment conditions to get Aqualung, Beta, Trine, White Wind, and Big Guard- the most important spells. 

FFX Summon Rushing is "better" than these both of those things though, in that there is a much higher chance of an average player discovering the strategy and using it. It holds strong as a great way to kill/severely damage bosses from beginning to nearly the end too. 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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With or without limits, you really shouldn't be struggling in FFVIII. I enjoy the game tons, and would prefer to keep things like ST DEF_J, so Im not constantly confused and killing myself, cause how fun would that be?

Edited by lightcosmo
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On 11/25/2019 at 1:03 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Agreed.

It's like all I heard of Freikugel being broken in SMT Nocturne and a physically-oriented main character being the best. That was bad advice, because Freikugel exists for a mere 2% of the game, and it isn't all that strong even. And, the Demi-Fiend from what I played would make far better sense going Vit in the hospital, then Mag until you get about 10-15 points, then you get the Nirvana Magatama for Divine Shot, and at that point you run a dual-cannon build with all your points going into Str. Focus + Divine Shot/Spiral Viper/Deadly Fury/Deathbound on things without weaknesses, and when something has a weakness or is resistant to Phys, you use a spell, Tornado being great in power and availability. Keep a skill slot open for Mind's Eye on Hard. You only pivot to full physical when Freikugel comes at the very top of the final dungeon

To stay on topic for Final Fantasy, Enemy Skills > KotR, because Enemy Skills can carry you for a much bigger slice of the game, and takes less time to obtain/get the good stuff. It does taper off and lose to KotR in the end, but it's a "Jagen" of FF, albeit one with "Stefan-esque" recruitment conditions to get Aqualung, Beta, Trine, White Wind, and Big Guard- the most important spells. 

FFX Summon Rushing is "better" than these both of those things though, in that there is a much higher chance of an average player discovering the strategy and using it. It holds strong as a great way to kill/severely damage bosses from beginning to nearly the end too. 

Yeah if we want to talk broken shit in Nocturne we talk about the shit thats been plaguing SMT series since its inception. The developer's audacity to make elemental weakness even more broken than they already was, opening up 90.000 floodgates of broken strategies, the absurdity of buffs, and specific to Nocturne, the sheer power of dodge buff.

 

In general SMT is in weird postiion where once you understand 2 things the game broke apart and the remaining fun of the games comes from the sheer flexibility the game offers to you to create an unholy abomination you can possible want. That 2 things being the move on from seeing it as a monster collection game that generally reinforces staying with a consistent team when SMT power spikes from changing things up, and counter teaming is extremely stronger(ironically they went back into standard monster collection games in late game lol), and the other is the game deliberately using their shitty UI and lack of information to mess with you

 

On the later a good example is Strange Journey

The audacity to put Zan Ei into a level 10 demon with shitty stats spread, source it at 19, and then puts it into L30 next. You'd think skills like this would be a gimmick, but no its a 200 Base power move for no reason whatsoever, it become 300 if you fulfill the condition which is rigable against bossfigths, and it costs 9 MP per casting

Pound for pound it is THE ultimate Physical skill in the entire game, alvailable at level 10 in essentially 60-70 level game. With only downside being how hilariously full extra they went to hide this fact from the players. The only reason Zan Ei is easilly recognizable in Strange Journey is because Takeminakata, one of the most powerful demon on a very natural progression line of the game happen to have it and even then you'd sometimes thought its Takeminkata that is broken, not Zan Ei.

 

 

Either way theres a difference between "FF8's broken" and some other tamer games "broken". Im not too familiar with other FF's game breaking mess but one issue with 8 is FF8 game breaks is rather mind numbing and puts up a rather tedious gameplay loops to the players, amongst other issues. As one of my friend puts it "why the fuck is this an RPG game that restricts you from using magics, one of the main draws of RPG"

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6 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Either way theres a difference between "FF8's broken" and some other tamer games "broken". Im not too familiar with other FF's game breaking mess but one issue with 8 is FF8 game breaks is rather mind numbing and puts up a rather tedious gameplay loops to the players, amongst other issues. As one of my friend puts it "why the fuck is this an RPG game that restricts you from using magics, one of the main draws of RPG"

To be honest, most games come down to this eventually, since most games have a "best strategy" per se.

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5 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

To be honest, most games come down to this eventually, since most games have a "best strategy" per se.

Most games "best strategy" isn't play fucking pokemon every fucking new ecounter set, staple your button into draw 3 times over, challenge everyone to a 3 minutes of trading card games of which you get 30% chance which you have to proc 8 times(or whatever Triple Triads ended up being summarized at), and you can't use spells. Its ok for games to have the best strategy or a very strong strategy, or even a broken one(because many people does find broken strategies fun) and obviously its better if you provide options that while isn't quite as good is good enough to be relatively strong or unique - Etrian Odyssey for example is notorious for the buff and burst pattern. EOV best strategy revolves around using a class that can multiply their damage by 500%. But even then the class that stabiizes at 150% is fairly good, the 500% class just broke the game.

Do it badly and you have Digimon Cyber Sleuth 1 where proper strategy is Aeroveedramon with multiple copy of Grankuwagamon being able to beat the game with capture only restriction whereas a strats that didn't use similar strategy would need like 10 times longer while going "all out"

They just have to be implemented well enough for the player to actually enjoy using them and in FF8 case its optimization revolves around playing the game in a very counter intutive ways so i don't quite enjoy it

 

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18 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Most games "best strategy" isn't play fucking pokemon every fucking new ecounter set, staple your button into draw 3 times over, challenge everyone to a 3 minutes of trading card games of which you get 30% chance which you have to proc 8 times(or whatever Triple Triads ended up being summarized at), and you can't use spells. Its ok for games to have the best strategy or a very strong strategy, or even a broken one(because many people does find broken strategies fun) and obviously its better if you provide options that while isn't quite as good is good enough to be relatively strong or unique - Etrian Odyssey for example is notorious for the buff and burst pattern. EOV best strategy revolves around using a class that can multiply their damage by 500%. But even then the class that stabiizes at 150% is fairly good, the 500% class just broke the game.

Do it badly and you have Digimon Cyber Sleuth 1 where proper strategy is Aeroveedramon with multiple copy of Grankuwagamon being able to beat the game with capture only restriction whereas a strats that didn't use similar strategy would need like 10 times longer while going "all out"

They just have to be implemented well enough for the player to actually enjoy using them and in FF8 case its optimization revolves around playing the game in a very counter intutive ways so i don't quite enjoy it

 

But people's argument's are that you are using the same strategy over and over. Which I said in most game's case, is the same thing. I think FF8's system is fine, it's got noticeable flaws like the rest of the FF games, sure you could argue some are worse than others, but that comes down to personal opinion and playstyle over anything else.

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