Edelgard would have been better without her backstory

[CyberNinja]

11 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

I never said her actions didn't make sense. All of what she does is fine for a villain. But CF tries to make her a protagonist and allying with the evil mole men on the basis of misinformation does make that particular route feel questionable because it doesn't feel like anything we're doing is justified.

Because nothing your doing in that route is justified. Edelgard cultivates a cult of personality around misinformation and manipulation. Part of her revealing her past to you is due to the interaction of her crests and yours (another topic) part of it is her emotionally manipulating you. The game has already established that there are bad actors and unreliable narrators, specifically they hedge on leaving the player confused on CF because we don't know how much is Edelgard's own lack of knowledge and how much is her intentionally obfuscating the past to paint a better picture. She is emotionally dependent on Byleth but she also views them as much the same as those "loathsome beasts" she detests, she truly believed that due to Byleth's lineage (aka bloodline) that they would choose their race "Nabatea" over humanity. Hubert's A support also covers this concept that the major topic of discussion is of Byleth's bloodline and well...

Quote

Hubert: That is not the case for inhuman creatures with lifespans well beyond our own. We must fight to preserve what makes us human. You are the one closest to the enemy. I wonder if you will be able to maintain your humanity to the end.

Byleth: If I'm unable to...

• Hubert: Does that mean you know I will do what must be done? You must trust me a great deal.

If that isn't ringing alarm bells I don't know what to say. Again let's look at what Edelgard has to say about Crests and relics in light of this, she insists that they are not gifts of the goddess but creations of Man, she paints a picture of Rhea and dragonkind as schemers jealous of humanities' ingenuity and neglects to mention how relics were made... when Amyr is a weapon made to her specifications. 

It isn't without reason that CF is the route that gives the least amount of information, it isn't an accident that what you are given is wrong. There is a reason that the route highlights that Edelgard is willing to lie to even her friends and closest allies... including you. It is the only route that Claude dies in and the route where you fight the most former friends (Two houses + Knights of Seiros) every single character has them calling out YOU for joining Edelgard. The route doesn't call out Edelgard because the entire route is designed around gaslighting the player into supporting Edelgard despite them being called out for it by every major character, in Azure Moon Dimitir's behavior was the problem, in Crimson Flower YOURS is. 

The route paints Edelgard as the hero defeating the evil Rhea but leaves in some seriously questionable behavior that it doesn't let you call out, these are the red flags that let you know something is wrong. Claude's route shows the lies but you still believe (assuming CF 1st route) she was justified with what she(and you) knew, VW opens you up to Azure Moon where you realize how far Edelgard will go, it destroys the illusion CF created. Silver Snow lets you look at things objectively again, Edelgard will ask you to join but you know better now, if you hesitate or deny her, it doesn't matter you are an enemy now, because you are not her ally your bloodline makes you an enemy.

So no, CF doesn't properly justify itself, it was never meant to. That's the point. If it was your first playthrough you can fall for Edelgard's propaganda, if not you'll see through her lies.

Edelgard is the villain, even in her own route: recall that the endings review the events are all as viewed from a historian's perspective.

[Troykv]

11 minutes ago, MessengerIris said:

From my understanding, OP and my qualm is more to do with TWSITD's involvement in Edelgard's backstory, moreso than her actual backstory. I think her backstory of torture is actually quite well done and puts her actions in a lot of context. But because TWSITD is such a badly written ultimate villain, it makes a lot of Edelgard's action seem misdirected against the church (since most people will end up falling on the crutch that the church upholds some the crest/nobility system). If Edelgard's backstory was more closely tied to her end goal (removal of the nobility/Church), then it wouldn't seem so contradicatory and confusing.

Like I mentioned before, Imperial nobility wants a unified Fodlan -> Insurrection of the Seven -> abducts Edelgard and siblings to create superpowered Emperor to achieve that goal -> Edelgard hates Crests and nobility. Also, a lot of the CF endings should reflect more of a meritocratic society (yes, societies don't change overnight but seriously felt a lot of things didn't even change at the end of CF when people like Bernadetta still are running their respective land). 

The TWSITD are a weird faction, I'm not sure what to feel about them right now (still waiting for the DLC to finish to have a full opinion), but their existence is practically the reason why someone like Nemesis, a charismatic but probably a bit blunt man managed to become the leader of an army that fights against gods. So while I don't exactly like them (other that their quite edgy aesthetics being of my liking), I find a bit hard to remove them from the backstory without having to make some fundamental changes about the backstory of the world.

I personally think the TWSITD are supposed to represent this inherited evil and greed the people of the world have, because they basically gave tools for other people to went nuts (like the whole Nemesis/Sothis thing and the Insurrection actually being Aegir's idea, but Thales and co. took full advantage of the process to do some of their own dirty deeds), the reason Edelgard is like that is because of nobility, but TWSITD is basically the tools these people used to make Edelgard fullfil the desire of those nobles... Destroy Faerghus and Leicester, and conquered them again.. This is probably the reason Edelgard managed to get the help of certain nobles to fulfil her own side of the agenda.

So yeah... TWSITD (at least currently) are basically narrative tools, but hey, tropes aren't bad, just a bit predictable.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Troykv

[Landmaster]

16 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

Because nothing your doing in that route is justified. Edelgard cultivates a cult of personality around misinformation and manipulation. Part of her revealing her past to you is due to the interaction of her crests and yours (another topic) part of it is her emotionally manipulating you. The game has already established that there are bad actors and unreliable narrators, specifically they hedge on leaving the player confused on CF because we don't know how much is Edelgard's own lack of knowledge and how much is her intentionally obfuscating the past to paint a better picture. She is emotionally dependent on Byleth but she also views them as much the same as those "loathsome beasts" she detests, she truly believed that due to Byleth's lineage (aka bloodline) that they would choose their race "Nabatea" over humanity. Hubert's A support also covers this concept that the major topic of discussion is of Byleth's bloodline and well...

If that isn't ringing alarm bells I don't know what to say. Again let's look at what Edelgard has to say about Crests and relics in light of this, she insists that they are not gifts of the goddess but creations of Man, she paints a picture of Rhea and dragonkind as schemers jealous of humanities' ingenuity and neglects to mention how relics were made... when Amyr is a weapon made to her specifications. 

It isn't without reason that CF is the route that gives the least amount of information, it isn't an accident that what you are given is wrong. There is a reason that the route highlights that Edelgard is willing to lie to even her friends and closest allies... including you. It is the only route that Claude dies in and the route where you fight the most former friends (Two houses + Knights of Seiros) every single character has them calling out YOU for joining Edelgard. The route doesn't call out Edelgard because the entire route is designed around gaslighting the player into supporting Edelgard despite them being called out for it by every major character, in Azure Moon Dimitir's behavior was the problem, in Crimson Flower YOURS is. 

The route paints Edelgard as the hero defeating the evil Rhea but leaves in some seriously questionable behavior that it doesn't let you call out, these are the red flags that let you know something is wrong. Claude's route shows the lies but you still believe (assuming CF 1st route) she was justified with what she(and you) knew, VW opens you up to Azure Moon where you realize how far Edelgard will go, it destroys the illusion CF created. Silver Snow lets you look at things objectively again, Edelgard will ask you to join but you know better now, if you hesitate or deny her, it doesn't matter you are an enemy now, because you are not her ally your bloodline makes you an enemy.

So no, CF doesn't properly justify itself, it was never meant to. That's the point. If it was your first playthrough you can fall for Edelgard's propaganda, if not you'll see through her lies.

Edelgard is the villain, even in her own route: recall that the endings review the events are all as viewed from a historian's perspective.

That is all certainly an interesting take considering many people would probably certainly argue against Edelgard being a villain in her own route. I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's in fact very much how I view CF. But I don't think CF isn't trying to justify itself. It seems that the game does want you to believe Edelgard is justified in what she's doing. And it just ends up working very poorly if CF is not your first route.

Not being able to call out Edelgard and have her answer to anything didn't seem like "this is on purpose", it felt like lazy writing.

[Jotari]

48 minutes ago, Crysta said:

 

Nemesis alone can't be responsible for that. 

Why not?

33 minutes ago, Troykv said:

Oh wow, I shouldn't be surprised this conversation ended this way.

I personally Edelgard's backstory works nicely because it creates a motive for driving her motivation. It's hard for someone to see the evil of the world, specially if they're "privileged ones" unless the evil comes after you, and that happened when Aegir, Thales and co. did her horrible deeds. 

Edelgard noticed because of this that the world needs to change, and the death of her family and even more people that had died and will die for similar reasons (basically Crest and Nobility related) drived her to create a future where these actions are never done again, and world without the Church at the center... And of course, a quite crazy dream needs an even crazier plan. She managed to make it work pretty well, despite how dangerous it would look in paper (She managed to defeat the Church and with managed to complete one of her main objectives: remove Rhea's influence from the world, and she can actually won the whole conflict if Byleth doesn't go against her, though, maybe she would have needed Byleth to deal with Thales, to be fair the only character that always wins is Byleth 😛 ).

The problem is that the church had nothing to do with her torture, only tangentially related by existing in the same world. She decides to declare war against the entire world except the people that actually hurt her.

27 minutes ago, Crysta said:

So, just out of curiosity, what would the rest of you put in place after removing the caste system?

Because if it's "I'd establish a democratic republic!", I have some bad news for you...

What news?

[CyberNinja]

2 minutes ago, Landmaster said:

That is all certainly an interesting take considering many people would probably certainly argue against Edelgard being a villain in her own route. I don't disagree with what you're saying, it's in fact very much how I view CF. But I don't think CF isn't trying to justify itself. It seems that the game does want you to believe Edelgard is justified in what she's doing. And it just ends up working very poorly if CF is not your first route.

Not being able to call out Edelgard and have her answer to anything didn't seem like "this is on purpose", it felt like lazy writing.

I think the writers are more self-aware then we give them credit for. A lot of people dislike Edelgard for making Jeralt's death about her, in her supports with Caspar, he'll actually call her out for making everything about her. Its stuff like this that repeats often enough to suggest that there is in fact certain concepts they want you to pick up on.

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

I think the writers are more self-aware then we give them credit for. A lot of people dislike Edelgard for making Jeralt's death about her, in her supports with Caspar, he'll actually call her out for making everything about her. Its stuff like this that repeats often enough to suggest that there is in fact certain concepts they want you to pick up on.

I agree with a lot of what you've said. Crimson Flower is very much playing as the bad guys and I think it does a great job of presenting the conflict as reasonable and unavoidable when it clearly isn't. It actually felt like how I assumr a lot of aggressors in real life view their actions.

[Dark Holy Elf]

24 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

So no, CF doesn't properly justify itself, it was never meant to. That's the point. If it was your first playthrough you can fall for Edelgard's propaganda, if not you'll see through her lies.

Edelgard is the villain, even in her own route: recall that the endings review the events are all as viewed from a historian's perspective.

This is an extremely bad take and borders on outright insulting since a lot of people (including me) don't have CF as our first route and still don't consider Edelgard the villain. If the writers weren't trying to justify CF, they wouldn't have made Rhea such a terrible person (torching her own city, something "villain" Edelgard never does across despite being in a similar situation in three routes) and given CF such a positive ending.

 

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

So it's a question basically anyone who's paid attention has asked upon getting far enough into Three Houses. Why is Edelgard allied with the people who murdered her family and tortured her? The general answer seems to be "She doesn't want to be, but she has to and will fight them eventually." Yet I've just finished Crimson Flower and the Agarthan (seriously why doesn't the game just call them that instead of that horrible descriptor) plot line is left even more open than in the other two routes I've played.

She's allied with them because her goal is to remove the social constructions which she blames, rightly or wrongly, for the suffering she experienced. You'll notice she rarely talks about "my uncle / Duke Aegir must pay for what they did", rather seeing it as a symptom of Fodlan's obsession with crests. I have no trouble believing that someone might act that way, trying to get at the root of the problems instead of going for simple-minded revenge.

Also, not that I'm happy with the Agarthians in any route at all, but I actually thought this route addressed them the most directly, since Hubert seems to be about the only person in the world who realizes how they need to be fought: in a war of espionage, to slowly remove their influence from society. I find that much more satisfying than VW/SS "just go to their house and punch them in the face" (which, as evidenced by the Claude/Byleth ending at least, doesn't actually work anyway).

[Crysta]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Why not?

How do you think a lone bandit would succeed in committing genocide against dragons?

An actual King could try, but both Rhea and Thales seem to agree that he was not that.

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What news?

Ideally in a democratic republic you would elect people on merit more than wealth or clout.

That's not what it usually evolves into, but I don't think Edelgard's aspirations in that regard are much different than how most people would approach it.

On another note, I do find it kind of ironic that Blue Lion fans have the same problem with Edelgard's route that I do with that route lol... but I do know the writers are trying to show the inherent flaws of the feudal system and bloodline rule, even if it just defaults make to the standard Fire Emblem route in the end.

[Troykv]

I think I'll play devil's advocate for the last time in this thread, and simply say.

Edelgard was wrong? About many stuff. But her ideals were born of something that was actually right, her fight may or may not be a justified one, but it was one that definitely had value for a lot of people, because this war allowed many things to happen, that in almost a millenium were unthinkable.

Edelgard may or may not deserve to win the war, but the world needed to change, and isn't going to change in the slow way without someone doing something big first (when someone tried to simply changed stuff about this status quo ended up with their respective countries against them sadly).

It's not an ideal scenario. But the scenario this is the scenario this world lives.

Eliminating some worms isn't going to change the world, is just going to make the work of other members of the system easier; you need to go for the core, the root of the very problem.

Good night.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Troykv

[Landmaster]

21 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

I think the writers are more self-aware then we give them credit for. A lot of people dislike Edelgard for making Jeralt's death about her, in her supports with Caspar, he'll actually call her out for making everything about her. Its stuff like this that repeats often enough to suggest that there is in fact certain concepts they want you to pick up on.

I'm not so sure in this case. Edelgard making everything about her is a part of her personality, yes. But is it literally the writers saying "This is us factually trying to show Edelgard is the overall bad guy"? Given how many people would argue to their deaths that she is the hero of the game, I'm not all that sure.

[omegaxis1]

WOW. I thought Serenes of all places would not be consumed by the utter ignorance and would not actually fall for such foolish antics, and yet, this happens. Just... wow. 

Misinformation? Please, tell me exactly WHAT is actually misinformed. I'll gladly tell you how you are utterly wrong. 

She's a villain? She works better as a villain/antagonist? Total BS.

By that logic, Dimitri is just as much of a great antagonist, alongside Rhea. One is a misguided revenge obsessed short sighted fool. The other is an insane dragon lady that has manipulated and caused Fodlan's society to decay into a suffocating grip.

Also, Edelgard made Jeralt's death about her? Even MORE BS.

She's legit the ONLY one that DIDN'T make it about her.

You wanna know who made Jeralt's death about them? Dimitri. That's the problem with empathy. Why does Byleth, after just having his dad be murdered in front of him, have to listen to Dimitri go on about his dad's death? Dimitri just hijacked into the place with his empathy and made it about him, not Byleth. 

Edelgard was legit the only one that made it about Byleth. Not her, but Byleth. Only Byleth. 

I am disappointed by how ignorant and shortsighted this thread is.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Crysta said:

How do you think a lone bandit would succeed in committing genocide against dragons?

An actual King could try, but both Rhea and Thales seem to agree that he was not that.

Ideally in a democratic republic you would elect people on merit more than wealth or clout.

That's not what it usually evolves into, but I don't think Edelgard's aspirations in that regard are much different than how most people would approach it.

On another note, I do find it kind of ironic that Blue Lion fans have the same problem with Edelgard's route that I do with that route lol... but I do know the writers are trying to show the inherent flaws of the feudal system and bloodline rule, even if it just defaults make to the standard Fire Emblem route in the end.

By stumbling upon some super steroids that makes him into a bad ass conqueror and being very charasmatic and crowd inspiring. Commoners becoming kings has happened before in our own history. It's not common, but it's not unprecedented. And if we're talking about rewriting Agrarians out anyway we can simply change it from bandit to bandit king.

And democracy is still far better than any other system imo.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

And democracy is still far better than any other system imo.

PLease... PLEASE tell me you are seriously NOT actually believing in the BS that Dimtiri created democracy. Please tell me this isn't the case.

If so, I'll be honest here.

That is a load of BS and you are utterly wrong to believe it.

Dimitri doesn't make anything NEAR democracy. It's still a dynast with nobility and hereditary rulership. Not democracy at all.

If ANYTHING, Edelgard's system is legit the only system that comes CLOSEST to a democracy. 

[MessengerIris]

Holy. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the sentiments being shared, there is clearly a better way of expressing it besides coming off so condescending and dismissive about other people’s takes on the events. Telling people to share their idea so you can tell them how wrong they are...And then calling all these people ignorant and not enlightened enough to share your views. I think it’s time for me to leave. It’s not even worth the discussion when it devolves into discussing with people with this sort of attitude. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by MessengerIris

[omegaxis1]

Just now, MessengerIris said:

Holy. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the sentiments being shared, there is clearly a better way of expressing it besides coming off so condescending and dismissive about other people’s takes on the events. Telling people to share their idea so you can tell them how wrong they are...

Perhaps, but the fact that I am witnessing people making such incredibly ignorant and biased remarks, dismissing literally so many traits and actually trying to declare that Edelgard is nothing but a villain and her story is you being the bad guys, I'm sorry, but I have little patience for that. Especially since I expected better on this site. 

When did this place become like reddit of all places? 

[CyberNinja]

2 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This is an extremely bad take

Why

2 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

outright insulting since a lot of people (including me) don't have CF as our first route and still don't consider Edelgard the villain

Weird flex but ok, that's your prerogative to be to be insulted and to not insult you further I'll only leave it as an implication of what I have to think of that. 

7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

CF, they wouldn't have made Rhea such a terrible person (torching her own city, something "villain" Edelgard never does across despite being in a similar situation in three routes)

which they only have Rhea do in this route, when all routes have Edelgard commit the crimes she does in White clouds and 3/4 routes have her as the main antagonist, with her own route still hinting at her darker tendencies. Edelgard still uses her own citizens as human shields, the thief enemies have dialogue showing that her war has left her people in abject poverty and Ferdinand's paralogue shows that the Empire is cracking under unrest as Edelgard allows her nobles and the Agarthans to fully exploit her own people to win the war, a war which was as mentioned avoidable. Edelgard is a villain, you being offended by that doesn't really matter until you give some evidence to the contrary. It's Edelgard's evil actions (assassination, hiring bandits, terrorist attacks) that drive the plot of White clouds, she is the one responsible for the harm, damage, or carnage caused by the war, being the instigator. In a literary and actual sense, she is a villain. Her character, (need for control, imperialism and nationalism) push her to slaughter her former friends and classmates to fulfill the ambitions of the Imperial nobility (reunification) and drive her need to reorganize her government as distinctly totalitarian. It is Edelgard's ambitions, her messiah complex, and controlling nature that causes her to take the actions she does, it is through these distinct character flaws that Edelgard becomes the Villain, and a rather charismatic one at that!.

7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

given CF such a positive ending.

She forms a totalitarian government, rewrites history to destroy any evidence that the Church, Kingdom, or Alliance ever existed (yes Ashe, there was more to take) and in endings where she solves her shortened lifespan (Lysithea) and most others, she never actually steps down. I won't argue on the merits of her choice of governmental system, but I wouldn't say that your stance is without controversy.

[MessengerIris]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Perhaps, but the fact that I am witnessing people making such incredibly ignorant and biased remarks, dismissing literally so many traits and actually trying to declare that Edelgard is nothing but a villain and her story is you being the bad guys, I'm sorry, but I have little patience for that. Especially since I expected better on this site. 

When did this place become like reddit of all places? 

If you have little patience, maybe remove yourself from the situation instead of acting like white knight and adding more fuel to the certain characters fans (whether that be Edelgard or Dimitri or Rhea or whatever) can be overbearing rhetoric that is becoming prevalent? It’s not the end of the world if people do not agree, and it’s not your job to “educate” others either...(which is what your post come off sounding).

Edited November 22, 2019 by MessengerIris

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, CyberNinja said:

which they only have Rhea do in this route, when all routes have Edelgard commit the crimes she does in White clouds and 3/4 routes have her as the main antagonist, with her own route still hinting at her darker tendencies. Edelgard still uses her own citizens as human shields, the thief enemies have dialogue showing that her war has left her people in abject poverty and Ferdinand's paralogue shows that the Empire is cracking under unrest as Edelgard allows her nobles and the Agarthans to fully exploit her own people to win the war, a war which was as mentioned avoidable. Edelgard is a villain, you being offended by that doesn't really matter until you give some evidence to the contrary. It's Edelgard's evil actions (assassination, hiring bandits, terrorist attacks) that drive the plot of White clouds, she is the one responsible for the harm, damage, or carnage caused by the war, being the instigator. In a literary and actual sense, she is a villain. Her character, (need for control, imperialism and nationalism) push her to slaughter her former friends and classmates to fulfill the ambitions of the Imperial nobility (reunification) and drive her need to reorganize her government as distinctly totalitarian. It is Edelgard's ambitions, her messiah complex, and controlling nature that causes her to take the actions she does, it is through these distinct character flaws that Edelgard becomes the Villain, and a rather charismatic one at that!.

Right. Because literally the fact that the slithers and the corrupt nobles want a war, and the Church has falsified history for over a thousand years and has asserted a tyrannical authority to anyone that opposes them, literally using the word of god that Rhea enforces, which is nothing but a false religious doctrine, and Edelgard is the total bad guy here. Really?

2 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

She forms a totalitarian government, rewrites history to destroy any evidence that the Church, Kingdom, or Alliance ever existed (yes Ashe, there was more to take) and in endings where she solves her shortened lifespan (Lysithea) and most others, she never actually steps down. I won't argue on the merits of her choice of governmental system, but I wouldn't say that your stance is without controversy.

Where do you get the idea that she rewrites history to destroy evidence of any such thing? Edelgard creates free education, actual social mobility that allows even commoners to rise in status, worked to ultimately abolish nobility, and actually DOES restore the church. 

Never steps down? Edelgard is legit the ONLY one that actually abdicates the throne after finding a successor. 

Seriously, where are you getting some of your information from?

[CyberNinja]

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And democracy is still far better than any other system imo.

Under what evidence? Under what parameters are be defining "better" as well? I'm assuming you are well informed on the subject and not solely making a proposition based on the assumption of unanimous agreement.

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

PLease... PLEASE tell me you are seriously NOT actually believing in the BS that Dimtiri created democracy. Please tell me this isn't the case.

Well we can agree on that.

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If ANYTHING, Edelgard's system is legit the only system that comes CLOSEST to a democracy. 

Well I suppose they're pretty close in how neither system actually reflects the desires of the population.

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Perhaps, but the fact that I am witnessing people making such incredibly ignorant and biased remarks, dismissing literally so many traits and actually trying to declare that Edelgard is nothing but a villain and her story is you being the bad guys, I'm sorry, but I have little patience for that. Especially since I expected better on this site. 

When did this place become like reddit of all places? 

Around the time you made a proposition without evidence.

[Landmaster]

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Perhaps, but the fact that I am witnessing people making such incredibly ignorant and biased remarks, dismissing literally so many traits and actually trying to declare that Edelgard is nothing but a villain and her story is you being the bad guys, I'm sorry, but I have little patience for that. Especially since I expected better on this site. 

When did this place become like reddit of all places? 

Isn't it ironic since the only Reddit-esque posts in here are yours trying to act like your opinion of Edelgard is the only one and everyone else who doesn't agree with you is somehow "ignorant"

[omegaxis1]

Just now, CyberNinja said:

Around the time you made a proposition without evidence.

Would you like me to provide evidence? Which evidence would you like? 

1 minute ago, Landmaster said:

Isn't it ironic since the only Reddit-esque posts in here are yours trying to act like your opinion of Edelgard is the only one and everyone else who doesn't agree with you is somehow "ignorant"

Would you like me to point out how this thread is? The literal fact that I'm seeing this thread declare that Edelgard is nothing but a villain is exactly how I am reminded of the many arguments I've seen on reddit. 

Perhaps I'm tired, or perhaps a sore subject has been struck. Either way, if you wish for me to express anything in a more civil manner, I would be more than happy to explain many things in Edelgard's defense.

Am I saying that Edelgard is free of all guilt and she did nothing wrong?

Hell no. 

But she is certainly not any of the demonizing terms that has been spouted here. 

[Landmaster]

Just now, omegaxis1 said:

Would you like me to point out how this thread is? The literal fact that I'm seeing this thread declare that Edelgard is nothing but a villain is exactly how I am reminded of the many arguments I've seen on reddit. 

Perhaps I'm tired, or perhaps a sore subject has been struck. Either way, if you wish for me to express anything in a more civil manner, I would be more than happy to explain many things in Edelgard's defense.

Am I saying that Edelgard is free of all guilt and she did nothing wrong?

Hell no. 

But she is certainly not any of the demonizing terms that has been spouted here. 

I read through the thread and see everyone expressing their opinions perfectly fine without saying everything that isn't what they agree with is BS. People are allowed to think Edelgard is the villain since, reminder, she is. You don't get to tell people their opinion is BS and then act like yours is the right one, that isn't how that works.

That IS the type of stuff you see on Reddit. "Edelgard's good, everyone who doesn't see it just isn't big brained enough to comprehend why. Rhea and Dimitri (who have nothing to do with this topic) are worse. And anyone who disagrees is wrong and I will write a thesis paper explaining why you're all wrong." Now that is some Reddit like behavior and I haven't seen anything on that level before you came in guns blazing.

There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion without telling everyone else they're wrong. That's not a discussion.

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, CyberNinja said:

I think the writers are more self-aware then we give them credit for. A lot of people dislike Edelgard for making Jeralt's death about her, in her supports with Caspar, he'll actually call her out for making everything about her. Its stuff like this that repeats often enough to suggest that there is in fact certain concepts they want you to pick up on.

I have a lot more respect for Caspar.  Thanks.

23 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Perhaps, but the fact that I am witnessing people making such incredibly ignorant and biased remarks, dismissing literally so many traits and actually trying to declare that Edelgard is nothing but a villain and her story is you being the bad guys, I'm sorry, but I have little patience for that. Especially since I expected better on this site. 

When did this place become like reddit of all places? 

Maybe you should stop browsing reddit.

Or maybe you should start Actually Discussing instead of pointing fingers.

Or maybe you should get out of this topic.

Regardless, this is unacceptable.

EDIT: Right, my opinion.  Any credibility that Edelgard has as a villain was utterly destroyed by the Agarthians.  I feel that they're so poorly-written that I can't take them seriously, hence why I can't take Edel seriously.

Edited November 22, 2019 by eclipse

[CyberNinja]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Where do you get the idea that she rewrites history to destroy evidence of any such thing?

Original Japanese ending translated since there's some evidence that the context is missing in the official dub. The original suggests that the kingdom and the church disappeared from history with the heavy implication of it being written out of history. Makes sense since the monks that appear around in CF state explicitly of their loss of faith and in other routes of persecution by Edelgard thus we realize the intent was that the church was brought to an end. You have to realize that Edelgard has already been established as a character that the player cannot take for her word, being a known liar in all routes. Even if she states she has nothing against the faith, her railing against Sothis and the gods in all routes including CF implies the opposite. In fact it is the loss of her faith that informs her decisions, she is lashing out because she was not saved.

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard creates free education, actual social mobility that allows even commoners to rise in status

Only if Ferdinand survives the war since his support conversation reveals she actually had no plan to implement any new system to replace the nobility or to facilitate upwards mobility of the classes.

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

WOW. I thought Serenes of all places would not be consumed by the utter ignorance and would not actually fall for such foolish antics, and yet, this happens. Just... wow. 

Misinformation? Please, tell me exactly WHAT is actually misinformed. I'll gladly tell you how you are utterly wrong. 

She's a villain? She works better as a villain/antagonist? Total BS.

By that logic, Dimitri is just as much of a great antagonist, alongside Rhea. One is a misguided revenge obsessed short sighted fool. The other is an insane dragon lady that has manipulated and caused Fodlan's society to decay into a suffocating grip.

Also, Edelgard made Jeralt's death about her? Even MORE BS.

She's legit the ONLY one that DIDN'T make it about her.

You wanna know who made Jeralt's death about them? Dimitri. That's the problem with empathy. Why does Byleth, after just having his dad be murdered in front of him, have to listen to Dimitri go on about his dad's death? Dimitri just hijacked into the place with his empathy and made it about him, not Byleth. 

Edelgard was legit the only one that made it about Byleth. Not her, but Byleth. Only Byleth. 

I am disappointed by how ignorant and shortsighted this thread is.

Dimitri no, I do t think he's a villain. A really weird distraction in Verdent Wind to justify the mirror to the part 1 mock battle, but not a villain. Rhea yes though, I think she is clearly depicted as a villain at several points.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

PLease... PLEASE tell me you are seriously NOT actually believing in the BS that Dimtiri created democracy. Please tell me this isn't the case.

If so, I'll be honest here.

That is a load of BS and you are utterly wrong to believe it.

Dimitri doesn't make anything NEAR democracy. It's still a dynast with nobility and hereditary rulership. Not democracy at all.

If ANYTHING, Edelgard's system is legit the only system that comes CLOSEST to a democracy. 

I haven't played Blue Lions so I have no idea what Dimitri's views are.