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25 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The entire reason the other nations get involved is cause of the very state of the war and how the other leaders are handling things. 

Yes, like how in CF, she outright invades Alliance, attacking them first, and in the other paths, her group (which includes TWSitD) take over the Kingdom and a part of the Alliance. Edelgard knows that declaring war on the Church means declaring war on its allies. Her actions speak very loudly in this case, and in all paths, she was willing to go to war with the other countries.

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hell, even in CF, he very much proves that his desire for revenge will make him go to war where he joins with the Church of Seiros and drags his nation to the war. 

By your very own logic, if it ever came to light that TWSitD (or at least, Arundel, and thus, the nobility of the Empire), were behind the Tragedy of Duscur (and thus, the murder of the King), that alone would start a war. This all ties back to TWSitD wanting a war, which you keep on ignoring. This wouldn't be Dimitri starting it, since it was them who initially fired first.

31 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

A weapon that is known to be able to wipe out armies and cleave mountains in two.

Do people still believe this is a thing? It's safe to say that those are rumors, and Byleth has never performed such a feat, as far as we seen. If Nemesis was able to do this, I highly doubt that he would need the help of the Ten Elites to even take over all of Fodlan.

51 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Then by that logic, you cannot make any definite statements that Dimitri's reformations are in any way better.

I never did. I simply said that Dimitri never wanted to start a war since he was willing to initially look for peaceful methods to the issues going on. However, once the war was started, he was forced into it, whether it was through Edelgard or her allies.

53 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

However, optimism aside, it does not change that Edelgard creates the most progressive form of changes, having abolished nobility, created free education, separated the church from the state, and also removed the borders herself, overall allowing cultural exchanges to happen. 

In the other paths' endings, the borders were removed as well (due to them taking over Fodlan), and the Empire was already, more or less, separated from the Church (Southern Church rebellion, no one being forced to go to Garreg Mach, etc.).

57 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You're kind of ignoring the context of the conversation. 

The context of the conversation was Miklan and him being disinherited from his house. Dimitri never agreed with this, though he agrees that crests are needed for that house so they can defend their land (this is how nobility in general worked in the past). Without the power of the crests and hero relics, they really don't have the power to be able to fight off the invaders. Dimitri even admits that both sides have good points, and that they should work together on things instead of fighting over it.

Even if it's Edelgard still breaking tradition, she is still personally picking someone to take over, which seems to go against her idea of anyone being able to work for what they want. The same is shown for the positions she gave to her Black Eagles allies after the war. Because of their positions prior to the war (most of them were nobles), they were able to achieve their merit due to their help, and so will their children.

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38 minutes ago, SigurdVII said:

Yes, but not to the extent that the Sword of the Creator is. The Church is in shambles after five years, as opposed to when they're at peak strength in CF. It's more gameplay than anything else that creates the illusion of it not being much more powerful than the average relic. But the Sword is explicitly described by multiple people as being powerful enough to destroy mountains, armies, etc.

Nemesis losing is down to him taking on Seiros who may have been blessed by the Progenitor God too (she mentions having been blessed by Sothis as well and has the same class mastery ability as Byleth's Enlightened One class). It's impossible to deny the power of the Sword of the Creator as being important to Claude when he's shown searching for it at multiple points and straight up says to Byleth he wanted to use their power to his advantage. 

Oh he definitely wants it, but he isn't going to think it's the solution to his all his problems. It's a powerful tool in his arsenal.

Edelgard declaring war and taking out Rhea - and in extension greatly weakening the Church - gives him the opportunity to actually co-opt them for his own uses versus fighting them himself. His grandfather dying in the five year skip puts him in a much better position to influence the political tempest that is the Alliance. Because Edelgard isn't just out to destroy Rhea and the Church and is seeking to consolidate the entire continent means he's fighting a defensive war instead of being the tyrant everyone hates himself, and he's ironically fighting her WITH the Church of Seiros, so he has the devout followers on his side. Byleth being Rhea's appointed successor and attending the Roundtable Conference with him, funnily enough, is what sways the normally bickering Alliance lords to throw their support behind Claude... not the Sword of the Creator.

In fact, I could argue all those strokes of luck make the Sword of Creator unnecessary for everything but defeating Nemesis... and it's already been established that you don't actually need it to defeat him (apparently you need to challenge him to a duel, disarm him, punch him in the face, and stab him repeatedly). Removing any other part of that combination makes things much trickier, and the Sword of the Creator may have more relevance, but... you're really overestimating it's importance. And I don't think Claude himself would.

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Just now, MrPerson0 said:

Yes, like how in CF, she outright invades Alliance, attacking them first, and in the other paths, her group (which includes TWSitD) take over the Kingdom and a part of the Alliance. Edelgard knows that declaring war on the Church means declaring war on its allies. Her actions speak very loudly in this case, and in all paths, she was willing to go to war with the other countries.

Obviously the other nations were going to get involved. Are you legit claiming that the other nations are going to sit around and do nothing? Not to mention, in CF, if Edelgard had not made her attack, Claude would have made his attack with the Almyrans. Unless you are going to condemn Edelgard for stopping the war from escalating to being even worse, with Claude making a sneak attack without any warning, then you don't have a real argument to stand on. 

Not to mention, she specifically states that the Empire was not going to occupy the Alliance when going in to attack Claude.

As for the other routes, obviously. Edelgard can't control the slithers. Odds are she never even knew Cornelia was a slither agent. Given how Arundel and Edelgard spoke in Crimson Flower, clearly Edelgard was never supposed to know this even then. The slithers using Cornelia forced Faerghus into the war, so it was already beyond Edelgard's control by that point, hence why it's even stated in the narration that Edelgard had to work on trying to strength her reign. 

Before spouting that Edelgard's actions speak volumes, the words also have a lot of meanings when you take the time to observe it. Edelgard could have literally have strongarmed Count Gloucester in Crimson Flower as she does in the other routes, but does not. Instead, Claude incites the infighting himself.

6 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

By your very own logic, if it ever came to light that TWSitD (or at least, Arundel, and thus, the nobility of the Empire), were behind the Tragedy of Duscur (and thus, the murder of the King), that alone would start a war. This all ties back to TWSitD wanting a war, which you keep on ignoring. This wouldn't be Dimitri starting it, since it was them who initially fired first.

Yeah, again, you aren't overall countering my point. In the end, Dimitri would want Arundel, a high ranking political figure, to die for the sake of revenge. Whether he exposes it or attacks Arundel, Dimitri is the one that would have triggered a war to happen because of his own actions. 

Trying to say that the slithers wanted a war does not in any way change that Dimitri would have caused one to happen. I don't know why you are trying to overlook or outright ignore this.

9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Do people still believe this is a thing? It's safe to say that those are rumors, and Byleth has never performed such a feat, as far as we seen. If Nemesis was able to do this, I highly doubt that he would need the help of the Ten Elites to even take over all of Fodlan.

Did you miss how things are in the opening scene or what? The literal way of how Nemesis used the Sword of the Creator's destructive power where he was razing armies like they were nothing. If Byleth literally tried to perform the same feat, he would cause a lot of damage and friendly fire. We already KNOW for a fact that the sword is indeed that powerful. Dunno why you're trying to argue against what is factual knowledge. Not to mention that Byleth is even MORE powerful given that he merged with Sothis to have the power of the progenitor god.

Just because Byleth can literally cleave a mountain in two or wipe out entire armies does not mean that Byleth literally wants to do just that. Would basically make Byleth to be a total monster. 

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I never did. I simply said that Dimitri never wanted to start a war since he was willing to initially look for peaceful methods to the issues going on. However, once the war was started, he was forced into it, whether it was through Edelgard or her allies.

Except that's where you are missing the point. Dimitri wanted revenge thanks to the Tragedy of Duscur. He would have triggered a war and caused a lot of problems for the sake of trying to get revenge. 

Trying to say he was forced into it is ignoring the issue. As I said, Dimitri dragged his nation into the war in Crimson Flower the moment he chose to ally himself with Rhea. That was all on him, not Edelgard or even the slithers. Dimitri had a choice, and for the sake of his revenge, he elected to join the war. 

12 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

In the other paths' endings, the borders were removed as well (due to them taking over Fodlan), and the Empire was already, more or less, separated from the Church (Southern Church rebellion, no one being forced to go to Garreg Mach, etc.).

The Empire was not separated from the Church. In fact, a lot of people in the Empire were serious believers and servants of the Church. But in the other routes, the Church still holds political power, whereas in Crimson Flower, the Church has been separated from power, so that it is nothing more than just a religious institution, allowing people to remain believers, but no longer is there anything like a military force or the likes such as the Knights of Seiros, which is something that should be good, since religious institutes should never have a military division. 

23 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

The context of the conversation was Miklan and him being disinherited from his house. Dimitri never agreed with this, though he agrees that crests are needed for that house so they can defend their land (this is how nobility in general worked in the past). Without the power of the crests and hero relics, they really don't have the power to be able to fight off the invaders. Dimitri even admits that both sides have good points, and that they should work together on things instead of fighting over it.

Yeah, which is overall the problem. He doesn't believe that there's anything inherently wrong with nobility, along with bloodlines or Crests, and such. Such a belief already renders any idea that Dimitri wants equality completely moot. If you put stock on Crests, as Dimitri doesn't want such a thing to stop, he's overall still keeping inequality, nor is he promoting social mobility. So guess what, there will still be nobles like Bernie or Jeritza's fathers that would remain in power. 

23 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Even if it's Edelgard still breaking tradition, she is still personally picking someone to take over, which seems to go against her idea of anyone being able to work for what they want. The same is shown for the positions she gave to her Black Eagles allies after the war. Because of their positions prior to the war (most of them were nobles), they were able to achieve their merit due to their help, and so will their children.

I'm sorry, what? 

See, this is an issue I've felt people love to nitpick.

First off, you cannot erase the nobility system overnight or in a few months. This is a system that's been in place for over a thousand years. It's been entrenched for a long time that the idea that you can remove it overnight is by far the biggest BS, hence why the endings state that Edelgard dedicates herself to creating the new system that allows people to be able to rise up through merits.

Not to mention, her friends gaining positions of power, are you kidding me? They earned it. They have had education, skills, and other such ability that they proved themselves capable. You think that she will sack all of them that proved their worth with commoners? That's a good way to run everything to the ground. They had the education and training needed to be able to prove themselves able to actually run things. 

Also, you're trying to claim that choosing a successor is bad? Really? Wanna compare?

Edelgard chooses someone that she knows and can trust will be a strong, effective, and worthy leader to rule Fodlan, by actually knowing the person overall, and that person having proved themselves with their own merits. 

Vs.

A successor will be automatically given the right to rule whether they are worthy to rule or not, simply because they are blood related to a person. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Are you legit claiming that the other nations are going to sit around and do nothing?

No, you made it seem like this by suggesting that Edelgard did nothing for five years in CF until you arrived. I am claiming that Edelgard knew she was waging a continental war, and she knew it was wrong to do that, which I wholeheartedly agree with. However, she excuses it by saying it'll lead to a better life for the future of Fodlan, which she truly has no idea if that would actually happen, which I disagree with.

As for Edelgard not controlling TWSitD, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that she willingly allied with them, even though Hubert made it seem that they could easily have not once the war started.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not to mention, in CF, if Edelgard had not made her attack, Claude would have made his attack with the Almyrans.

But she didn't know about this invasion beforehand. Her attacking Claude outright still puts her in the wrong. You are trying to make it seem that Claude was going to attack her, but you (nor Edelgard) had nothing to base this off of until after the battle with Claude.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Trying to say that the slithers wanted a war does not in any way change that Dimitri would have caused one to happen. I don't know why you are trying to overlook or outright ignore this.

And you seem to have ignored that TWSitD wanted Edelgard and Dimitri to fight and destroy each other in the first place. You are saying that war is inevitable, which no one is disagreeing with, but your suggestion of who the perpetrator is the part where people will disagree with. The blame will always fall on TWSitD for this, not Dimitri, and not Claude.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

But in the other routes, the Church still holds political power, whereas in Crimson Flower, the Church has been separated from power,

In the other routes, the Church was separated from the Empire. They were just persecuting believers and whatnot.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dunno why you're trying to argue against what is factual knowledge.

Because you are trying to latch on to a rumor (SotC is so powerful that it can split mountains) that has no evidence that backs it up. You are trying to make it seem that the SotC has so much power that Claude would use it to rule over Fodlan, which just seems ridiculous. Maybe he would start a war with Rhea if he ended up stealing it (though he probably didn't know where it was in the first place), but managing to take over Fodlan with it seems very farfetched.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Such a belief already renders any idea that Dimitri wants equality completely moot. If you put stock on Crests, as Dimitri doesn't want such a thing to stop, he's overall still keeping inequality, nor is he promoting social mobility.

What about the belief that non-Crest holders could build technology to make them equal to those of crest holders, or make weapons as powerful as the crests over time? Hanneman's goal is known among the students, which is likely what Dimitri kept in mind.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

They have had education, skills, and other such ability

All thanks to most of their upbringing where they were able to afford an expensive education at Garreg Mach. The thing with meritocracy is, it'll always be a cycle if you strictly adhere to it.

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28 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

No, you made it seem like this by suggesting that Edelgard did nothing for five years in CF until you arrived. I am claiming that Edelgard knew she was waging a continental war, and she knew it was wrong to do that, which I wholeheartedly agree with. However, she excuses it by saying it'll lead to a better life for the future of Fodlan, which she truly has no idea if that would actually happen, which I disagree with.

As for Edelgard not controlling TWSitD, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that she willingly allied with them, even though Hubert made it seem that they could easily have not once the war started.

Here's the issue I have with the logic you just said. How does anyone know what is the absolute best choice? Saying that there is a peaceful way to fix things is false. Every peaceful or good change made in every ending is all due to the war. Edelgard believing that her war is the only way to fix this system ended up proving to be right. In every route, whether she won or not, things got better. 

And literally given how I stated that Dimitri and Clause would have caused a war to happen, you are not in any way disproving anything.

Dimitri didn't want to change anything or fix anything for all of part 1 and the majority of part 2. He wanted revenge. Nothing more. Nothing less. His ideals are something he only began to want to put into practice only after he started to heal. 

Saying that you go into war and knowing exactly how things will go is absurd. Edelgard is not a god with clairvoyance. She has to believe that it will get better. That's the only thing she can do, hence why she dedicates her life to it and will die fighting for that cause to the bitter end. 

Also, really? You think it was by any means much of a choice? You take Hubert's words to act like she could have rejected their help, when these are the same people that had risen her to power, and only got as far as she did thanks to them. Solon literally said that he would kill Edelgard for defying them. Arundel blew up Arianrhod to punish Edelgard for killing Cornelia BEFORE he even confronted Edelgard in regards to it. What makes you think that there was actually any real choice involved?

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

But she didn't know about this invasion beforehand. Her attacking Claude outright still puts her in the wrong. You are trying to make it seem that Claude was going to attack her, but you (nor Edelgard) had nothing to base this off of until after the battle with Claude.

You did not, in any way, counter my point. In the end, Edelgard was perfectly right to have struck when she did and prevented the war from escalating worse.

Edelgard is perceptive and smart. She knows Claude is not the type of person that is inciting conflict to keep the Alliance united just because he doesn't want to get involved in the war. Knowing the kind of guy he is, she was not going to let him get any chance to make any attacks on her. And she was right in the end, when Derdriu was shut down, proving that Claude was preparing for an attack. 

14 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

And you seem to have ignored that TWSitD wanted Edelgard and Dimitri to fight and destroy each other in the first place. You are saying that war is inevitable, which no one is disagreeing with, but your suggestion of who the perpetrator is the part where people will disagree with. The blame will always fall on TWSitD for this, not Dimitri, and not Claude.

Really? Are you serious? 

This is the issue. I literally made my point that the war is inevitable cause if Edelgard didn't start one, Claude and Dimitri were perfectly viable in causing one themselves. Whether you want to impose blame on the slithers, guess what? That does not, in any way, change that if Dimitri attacks Arundel, Dimitri starts the war. Then the war is his fault. Plain and simple. 

This is no different from the scenario of how the Laguz Alliance started a war with Begnion because they learned that the Senate was responsible for the Serenes Massacre. They went to war despite knowing that Lehran's Medallion was a thing.

17 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

In the other routes, the Church was separated from the Empire. They were just persecuting believers and whatnot.

No, it wasn't. In fact, the real Arundel was a faithful believer for years and made big donations yearly before 1174, when he got replaced by Thales. 

18 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Because you are trying to latch on to a rumor (SotC is so powerful that it can split mountains) that has no evidence that backs it up. You are trying to make it seem that the SotC has so much power that Claude would use it to rule over Fodlan, which just seems ridiculous. Maybe he would start a war with Rhea if he ended up stealing it (though he probably didn't know where it was in the first place), but managing to take over Fodlan with it seems very farfetched.

It is not a rumor if we know for a fact from what the literal opening scene shows us. The Relics are all absurdly powerful, with the Lance of Ruin being something that has held off the Sreng Invasion singlehandedly. You literally think that the Sword of the Creator, more powerful than all the others, would not be capable of the feats that the legends regard it as? 

Hell, the literal fact that anyone that has Byleth and the Sword of the Creator on their side basically ensure victory kind of speaks volumes in itself.

Like, there's a limit to how much you are willing to ignore what is literal fact. We saw for ourselves that the Sword of the Creator literally does live up to the legends in the very opening scene. So no, your argument is pointless.

21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

No, you made it seem like this by suggesting that Edelgard did nothing for five years in CF until you arrived. I am claiming that Edelgard knew she was waging a continental war, and she knew it was wrong to do that, which I wholeheartedly agree with. However, she excuses it by saying it'll lead to a better life for the future of Fodlan, which she truly has no idea if that would actually happen, which I disagree with.

As for Edelgard not controlling TWSitD, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that she willingly allied with them, even though Hubert made it seem that they could easily have not once the war started.

That's Hanneman, though. Not Dimitri.

And Hanneman's goal is known among the students? I don't recall that being the case. Can you provide with evidence? If I recall, Hanneman only ever tells the point of his research if someone actually asks. Hell, he didn't even tell Edelgard until their A support. 

28 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

All thanks to most of their upbringing where they were able to afford an expensive education at Garreg Mach. The thing with meritocracy is, it'll always be a cycle if you strictly adhere to it.

Yeah, literally why Edelgard and Ferdinand's A support has Ferdinand point out that if the nobility system must go, something has to replace it. Edelgard literally works to remove the nobility system by building something in its place, which is a new education system, one that allows the people in general to have a chance to actually study and rise up to attain their desires. But to create such a thing isn't easy to do, as I literally said before, the nobility system is a deeply entrenched system, so you literally cannot expect any commoners in the current generation to take up roles right now. It's amazing how I've seen plenty of people ignore this so much just to make excuses that Edelgard is wrong.

Also, literally as proof that she does actually make progress in the new education system, Manuela and Hanneman's CF paired ending differs from the others. 

Other Ending:

Quote

After the war, Hanneman and Manuela held a grand wedding ceremony, to which all of their many students were invited. Later, as Garreg Mach came to be restored, the Officers Academy finally reopened, with a renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status. Manuela and Hanneman returned to work as teachers, almost as if nothing had changed, and filled the halls with their banter in the way only married couples can. Their relationship spawned a trend of romances among colleagues at the Officers Academy, but that is an entirely different story.

Crimson Flower Ending:

Quote

After the war, Hanneman and Manuela held a grand wedding ceremony, to which all of their many students were invited. Later, after the church was transformed and rehabilitated under the supervision of the Empire, the Officers Academy finally reopened, with a renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status and offering classes on a wider variety of practical subjects. Hanneman and Manuela returned to work as teachers, almost as if nothing had changed, and filled the halls with their banter in the way only married couples can.

So not only does in every ending, after the war, Garreg Mach now starts to accept students of multiple backgrounds, meaning that the tuition is unlikely to be as high as before, Crimson Flower actually takes it a step further by now teaching more practical subjects, which is literally something that would only be needed if the students there would need said education to rise up in the social ranks. 

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13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It is not a rumor if we know for a fact from what the literal opening scene shows us. The Relics are all absurdly powerful, with the Lance of Ruin being something that has held off the Sreng Invasion singlehandedly. You literally think that the Sword of the Creator, more powerful than all the others, would not be capable of the feats that the legends regard it as? 

Hell, the literal fact that anyone that has Byleth and the Sword of the Creator on their side basically ensure victory kind of speaks volumes in itself.

Like, there's a limit to how much you are willing to ignore what is literal fact. We saw for ourselves that the Sword of the Creator literally does live up to the legends in the very opening scene. So no, your argument is pointless.

Wielding the Sword of the Creator doesn't stop people from opposing you, nor does it make you invincible. The guy who wielded it still needed an army behind him and still died, and there was plenty of opposition.

It is a powerful tool, but not an absolutely necessary one, and you definitely need more if you want to defeat Rhea/the Church. Claude needs to destabilize the latter and acquire actual political power before he attempts to steal the damn thing, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't stop researching and looking for it. Hell, even if he can't use it himself, stealing it is a good way to deprive the Church of it and trigger Rhea - but he needs to be prepared for the consequences of that choice.

It's a big stretch to believe he thinks he just needs the sword and the world will have no choice but to surrender to him.

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1 minute ago, Crysta said:

Wielding the Sword of the Creator doesn't stop people from opposing you, nor does it make you invincible. The guy who wielded it still needed an army behind him and still died, and there was plenty of opposition.

It is a powerful tool, but not an absolutely necessary one, and you definitely need more if you want to defeat Rhea/the Church. Claude needs to destabilize the latter and acquire actual political power before he attempts to steal the damn thing, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't stop researching and looking for it. Hell, even if he can't use it himself, stealing it is a good way to deprive the Church of it and trigger Rhea - but he needs to be prepared for the consequences of that choice.

It's a big stretch to believe he thinks he just needs the sword and the world will have no choice but to surrender to him.

The only reason that Nemesis lost was to Seiros, who apparently had been blessed by Sothis before that. She's the only one that could have beaten him. Not to mention, having Byleth and the Sword of the Creator on his side, and having united the Alliance, Claude would have had, in his mind, all the cards needed to make his move. If the only one that could oppose them was Saint Seiros, whom everyone thinks is dead, exactly who could stop him?

Also consider the other thing. Seiros in the legends had the Ten Elites to help her defeat Nemesis. So it's basically Saint Seiros and Ten Elites with their Relics that stopped Nemesis in the end.

So in this new scenario, Claude has both the Sword of the Creator on his side, and almost half of the Relics other Relics. By that case, Claude has the upper hand. 

 

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9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

How does anyone know what is the absolute best choice? Saying that there is a peaceful way to fix things is false.

Sure, but trying to go to a continental war without caring about the people who are going to suffer over it should be one of the last options you will take, not the first.

Just because you said Dimitri and Claude could start a war doesn't mean that would actually happen. That's just your view.

10 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In the end, Edelgard was perfectly right to have struck when she did and prevented the war from escalating worse.

Because it worked out for her. That doesn't make her in the right to attack Claude in the beginning.

11 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It is not a rumor if we know for a fact from what the literal opening scene shows us.

You literally think that the Sword of the Creator, more powerful than all the others, would not be capable of the feats that the legends regard it as? 

You said that the SotC can split a mountain. The opening scene did not show us this. All it showed us was Nemesis using it to its full advantage, managing to take out multiple soldiers at once. No one is arguing against this, because there are cases of other characters, such as Dimitri, doing the same thing.

Until we are shown that it can actually do such a thing, no, I do not believe that weapon can split apart a mountain.

15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I literally made my point that the war is inevitable cause if Edelgard didn't start one, Claude and Dimitri were perfectly viable in causing one themselves.

Just because you made a statement doesn't actually make it true, especially with the faulty reasoning with Claude. No matter what, TWSitD are the ones who wanted the war, and they got it by instigating it.

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

In fact, the real Arundel was a faithful believer for years and made big donations yearly before 1174, when he got replaced by Thales. 

How is a noble donating to a church mean that there is no separation of church and state? He is doing that on his own time.

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And Hanneman's goal is known among the students? I don't recall that being the case.

I do admit that is headcanon, but it would make sense since he is a renowned crest scholar, and all of his work is likely out there for the public to read (at least in Garreg Mach).

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

So not only does in every ending, after the war, Garreg Mach now starts to accept students of multiple backgrounds, meaning that the tuition is unlikely to be as high as before, Crimson Flower actually takes it a step further by now teaching more practical subjects, which is literally something that would only be needed if the students there would need said education to rise up in the social ranks. 

About the multiple backgrounds, Garreg Mach was already doing this, and even tried to put all students on equal ground. As for the practical subjects, we do not know what those are, especially when Garreg Mach already offered several of them (such as dancing).

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18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The only reason that Nemesis lost was to Seiros, who apparently had been blessed by Sothis before that. She's the only one that could have beaten him. Not to mention, having Byleth and the Sword of the Creator on his side, and having united the Alliance, Claude would have had, in his mind, all the cards needed to make his move. If the only one that could oppose them was Saint Seiros, whom everyone thinks is dead, exactly who could stop him?

I doubt she was actually blessed by her dead mother, honestly. I don't know how solid this premise actually is: it's more that Seiros was the only one capable of going toe-to-toe with him at the time, in an era when we don't have a system of training child soldiers with relic weapons.

He bodies Holst, but the Alliance was caught by surprise and Holst didn't know what the fuck he was up against.

And what timeline are we arguing that Claude has a united Alliance behind him? Because it isn't when he's a teenager at the monastery, and it isn't even the case in VW until the second half, when you take the bridge and Gloucester jumps ship. Who, by the way, covets Claude's position and is a devout follower of the Church of Seiros. Byleth certainly is not Rhea's appointed successor in this situation: he is Nemesis 2.0.

 

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3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Sure, but trying to go to a continental war without caring about the people who are going to suffer over it should be one of the last options you will take, not the first.

Just because you said Dimitri and Claude could start a war doesn't mean that would actually happen. That's just your view.

Right, and you literally have had no way of presenting any proof. 

Edelgard at least acknowledges that people will suffer and knows the consequences, but she believes it will bring about the change that Fodlan needs. And guess what? Her belief was proven right. That is fact, one that you cannot deny is true in any way. 

Could? The only one you can sort of argue as could is Claude. 

Dimitri? He WOULD cause a war.

Once again. 

Crown prince of Faerghus trying to kill the regent of the Empire. Succeed or not, Dimitri's quest for revenge would 100% cause a war to happen.

5 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Because it worked out for her. That doesn't make her in the right to attack Claude in the beginning.

But she's right and proved it. So she is not wrong. 

Does not matter how you wanna spin it. Edelgard's proactive action because she knows the kind of guy Claude is was proven to be the wise and right course of action. And the casualties was kept to a minimum, therefore, more lives was spared as a result.

7 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Just because you made a statement doesn't actually make it true, especially with the faulty reasoning with Claude. No matter what, TWSitD are the ones who wanted the war, and they got it by instigating it.

Right, and exactly what have you proven? All you've been saying is pointing fingers at the slithers and ignoring everything else. Whether Dimitri's quest for revenge was justified because the slithers caused the Tragedy, guess what? Dimitri would have caused the war because he would have sought revenge and attack Arundel. 

I backed by logic up with literal evidence from dialogue in the game, and you have not even been able to do the same thing. At all. 

If you wanna actually have credible arguments, back it up.

9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

How is a noble donating to a church mean that there is no separation of church and state? He is doing that on his own time.

Dude, are you for real? Like, absolutely, there's a point where now you're trying to reach here. 

Not to mention, despite the strained relationship, I wanna point out that the Empire and the Church are still connected, as 120 years before the game, the Southern Church attempted an insurrection, and that ultimately made the Empire reconnect with the Central Church.

Quote

You must know about the Western Church in the Kingdom, and the Eastern Church in the Alliance. But you probably don't know about the Southern Church. It used to exist a long time ago, in Enbarr. About 120 years ago, they had a massive insurrection. The bishop of the Southern Church who participated was exiled by the furious emperor. After that, the Empire reconciled with the Central Church, but relations continued to be strained. That history has probably laid the groundwork for the current antagonism among the Empire's citizens.

Strained and antagonistic relationship, sure. The Church still did remain a part of the Empire. This is proof.

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I do admit that is headcanon, but it would make sense since he is a renowned crest scholar, and all of his work is likely out there for the public to read (at least in Garreg Mach).

Yeah, best to keep the larger headcanons that don't have any evidence behind it. It isn't actually public knowledge over the purpose of his research. Someone would have to ask to know. Hanneman doesn't try to hide it, but he simply doesn't talk about the purpose. One of Hanneman's issue is that he has poor communication skills.

13 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

About the multiple backgrounds, Garreg Mach was already doing this, and even tried to put all students on equal ground. As for the practical subjects, we do not know what those are, especially when Garreg Mach already offered several of them (such as dancing).

Dude, are you legit arguing against the endings that state in text just because it does not go with what you wish? 

The fact is proof. Edelgard's education system is implemented in the newly reformed Garreg Mach, which is to help the new students, regardless of background, to be able to attain the education needed to rise in the ranks. 

Also, the only reason anyone could get into Garreg Mach before is through the recommendation of nobles or just a lot of money. If Garreg Mach's focus in students changed, that means that they aren't actually going for the same regulations as before and thus it isn't the same expensive tuition. 

5 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I doubt she was actually blessed by her dead mother, honestly. I don't know how solid this premise actually is: it's more that Seiros was the only one capable of going toe-to-toe with him at the time, in an era when we don't have a system of training child soldiers with relic weapons.

He bodies Holst, but the Alliance was caught by surprise and Holst didn't know what the fuck he was up against.

And what timeframe are we arguing that Claude has a united Alliance behind him? Because it isn't when he's a teenager at the monastery, and it isn't even the case in VW until the second half, when you take the bridge and Gloucester jumps ship. Who, by the way, covets Claude's position and is a devout follower of the Church of Seiros.

I don't think Rhea was lying when she explained in her supports that Seiros had been blessed by Sothis. This is even proven by the gameplay in how Byleth's "Enlightened One" class mastery skill is "Sacred Power", which is a skill that Rhea actually has herself.

Also, you're missing the point. The legends that Claude knows from the Church of Seiros, since Rhea erased the actual truth, is that Nemesis was solo in the army he led. The Ten Elites were with Saint Seiros. Along with that, the Four Saints.

In other words, Claude having the Alliance Relics and the Sword of the Creator, all by keeping the Alliance unified, so the army with it, means that Claude has the biggest advantage. He doesn't know until literally the end of his route about the Ten Elites being actually on Nemesis's side.

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28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I don't think Rhea was lying when she explained in her supports that Seiros had been blessed by Sothis. This is even proven by the gameplay in how Byleth's "Enlightened One" class mastery skill is "Sacred Power", which is a skill that Rhea actually has herself.

Also, you're missing the point. The legends that Claude knows from the Church of Seiros, since Rhea erased the actual truth, is that Nemesis was solo in the army he led. The Ten Elites were with Saint Seiros. Along with that, the Four Saints.

In other words, Claude having the Alliance Relics and the Sword of the Creator, all by keeping the Alliance unified, so the army with it, means that Claude has the biggest advantage. He doesn't know until literally the end of his route about the Ten Elites being actually on Nemesis's side.

Rhea is not the most reliable narrator and Claude is not someone who accepts the mythology surrounding Nemesis wholesale even in the game dialogue. Even accepting that, Seiros is still around, and there will be Alliance lords who side with her. There is no point where the Alliance is unified under Claude against Rhea/Seiros. It will be Crimson Rose starring Claude/Byleth versus Seiros/Rhea + the Kingdom, the Empire (assuming we're taking Edelgard out of this hypothetical), likely half of his own Alliance. He definitely will not have all of the Alliance relics on his side.

If he manages to kill Rhea/Seiros before he strikes, then he has a much better shot at it. But that doesn't happen even in Crimson Flower.

 

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I want to put in my thoughts - (everything is really great). 

On the subject of Claude - 

I don't think... he would have started a war. Not unless he had to I wager, but he's always been in the... well not the cat-bird seat as it were but most times everything has been him being reactionary. The thing is, while I feel he wanted to destroy the walls etc - he and Dimitri were friend-ish enough in the monastery and DImitri (outside of the revenge/avenging Tragedy of Duscar), was a very open-minded person. So there's really nothing to me that would indicate that during their year Claude wouldn't have sussed out a way to have Dimitri on his side to work with the Alliance/Almyra (etc) and then spread out. Esp. because in Azure Moon once Dimitri regains his senses he wants to help Claude, and Claude entrusts the Alliance to him. 

I do think this 17 angry Claude probably would have. it's very evident that while his parents wanted him to be self-sufficent they also left Claude open to a crap tonne of abuse (which.... is odd  considering his dad his the king. if all of that was targeted at the mom -... sure but to the crown prince of Almyra? i never understood that, but hey i can roll with it). so i do think wanting to get the power, and (in a sense) Leash out would have been something in his mind even when he had no problems killing (when had to) i always feel Claude's first reaction was to just ..incapacitate  and continue to buy himself more time vs just killing/ending things with out a chance of negotiation. 23 year old Claude is more mellow/and meticulous vs. wanting the "tadaa"ness of his actions (even though both are born from "scheming") 

(biggest example  gambit quotes; 17 Claude: my moment has arrived! pull out all the stops! - and he's excited to strike out. 23 year claude: (mellow/thoughtful voice). it's time for a secret scheme.).

 

re: Dimitri. 
I do think  it is still interesting that Byleth is the one who directly impacts Dimitri the most.  
the only reason why the revenge happens is because he finally breaks down when Byleth dies as well. (and the whole plot thing happens). When Byleth choses Edelgard - there's no real push for revenge on Dimitri's part (because the coup never happens). (I'll be dead honest with you. I've played Crimson Flower twice and I end up so bored and not interested. so I legit can be missing stuff). Silver Snow you get more of the Savage Bear Dimitri with no way of stopping him because no one can stop him. 

I do think if Byleth doesn't disappear, she + Rodrigue can talk Dimitri away from doing something completely stupid and maybe try to investigate what happened with Duscar (like Rodrigue and Gilbert figure it out like 2-3 chapters).  - so i do think that is the tipping point. Byleth can't disappear or the Cornelia coup doesn't start. it's both of these factors that causes Dimitri to go savage. (which is why in my headcannon Byleth x Dimitri 😉

 

my thing w/Edelgard. 
well girl always wanted a war and it was always going to happen.  (my thing is and always was, i don't think it was ever really about the crests/elimination of them). it was majorly reclaiming everything that Adrestia as an Imperial empire lost.i think (to garner more respect) she used the crests as her rallying cry partly because it was true (on her end) but everyone (but the Church) could how having it as it was wasn't really working anymore - and that is why if that was only what Edelgard wanted - as much as she had eyes/and ears all over the place, she would have known that  

A both Claude + Dimitri had very little time for the crest system as it was and 
B: both Claude and Dimitri had very little time for the strong lording the weak. 

 

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59 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dimitri? He WOULD cause a war.

All you've been saying is pointing fingers at the slithers and ignoring everything else. Whether Dimitri's quest for revenge was justified because the slithers caused the Tragedy, guess what? Dimitri would have caused the war because he would have sought revenge and attack Arundel. 

I feel like you missed/are ignoring an entire point of the game where TWSitD are behind, well, everything. They are the ones who want a war, and the Tragedy of Duscur is how it was started. If it was immediately found out that TWSitD/the Empire were behind the tragedy in the first place, and a war started from there, Dimitri wouldn't be the cause of that war, TWSitD would be. That extends to how Dimitri would react upon finding out the truth.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Does not matter how you wanna spin it. Edelgard's proactive action because she knows the kind of guy Claude is was proven to be the wise and right course of action. And the casualties was kept to a minimum, therefore, more lives was spared as a result.

You're the one who is trying to spin it, because no matter what, Edelgard attacked first, which was completely unprovoked on Claude's end.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Strained and antagonistic relationship, sure. The Church still did remain a part of the Empire. This is proof.

That is proof of them having relations, not about their laws being based on by the church (which is what Separation of Church and State is always about). For example, Rhea still hangs around to crown the next Emperor, but that was always due to their history with the Church helping their founding.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard's education system is implemented in the newly reformed Garreg Mach, which is to help the new students, regardless of background, to be able to attain the education needed to rise in the ranks. 

If Garreg Mach's focus in students changed, that means that they aren't actually going for the same regulations as before and thus it isn't the same expensive tuition. 

Once again, we do not know what these new studies are, they are just left to our imagination (headcanon).

Nope. They said "renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status", which means they are re-doing the same thing that they did before (accept students with a high amount of tuition).

 

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3 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

I feel like you missed/are ignoring an entire point of the game where TWSitD are behind, well, everything. They are the ones who want a war, and the Tragedy of Duscur is how it was started. If it was immediately found out that TWSitD/the Empire were behind the tragedy in the first place, and a war started from there, Dimitri wouldn't be the cause of that war, TWSitD would be. That extends to how Dimitri would react upon finding out the truth.

Thing is, Dimitri is the one pulling the trigger here. Mole People set up the situation, yes, but it would be him breaking down and going for revenge which would trigger that. The thing is that the Mole People/Rhea tango created a situation where everyone  was approaching a situation where declaring war was becoming the only way forward because peaceful changes had been debunked by coups and assassinations, and uncompromising attitudes.

 

3 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

You're the one who is trying to spin it, because no matter what, Edelgard attacked first, which was completely unprovoked on Claude's end.

Euh, the narrative is all going about 'feigned neutrality' for Claude, that kinda sorta looks like a potential reason.

 

3 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is proof of them having relations, not about their laws being based on by the church (which is what Separation of Church and State is always about). For example, Rhea still hangs around to crown the next Emperor, but that was always due to their history with the Church helping their founding.

Dude, it is a medieval society. Church and Religion are at heart of how the State works, in terms of education, influence on society, and political power. You said it yourself, emperors get Archbishop as 'witness' for their crowning ceremony (and a 1000 years old tradition? Boy you can bet your very soul that sometihng that old carry a hell of a weight). That's pretty much textbook divine right to rule, and echoing RL HRE where the pope was the one crowning the emperor. It's hard to get closer relationships betweeen Church and State than that (and elsewhere... 'Holy' Kingdom, dedicated branchs of the Church... Seriously?)

 

3 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Once again, we do not know what these new studies are, they are just left to our imagination (headcanon).

Nope. They said "renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status", which means they are re-doing the same thing that they did before (accept students with a high amount of tuition).

Well, given the sort of society she wants to build and her supports on the subject, basic logic makes it a quite safe bet.

And that's when I'm sending back the headcanon argument back to your face. Renewed doesn't imply doing the exact same thing, and since the idea is education for all, the high tuition thing would be something rather self-defeating.

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12 hours ago, Crysta said:

Rhea is not the most reliable narrator and Claude is not someone who accepts the mythology surrounding Nemesis wholesale even in the game dialogue. Even accepting that, Seiros is still around, and there will be Alliance lords who side with her. There is no point where the Alliance is unified under Claude against Rhea/Seiros. It will be Crimson Rose starring Claude/Byleth versus Seiros/Rhea + the Kingdom, the Empire (assuming we're taking Edelgard out of this hypothetical), likely half of his own Alliance. He definitely will not have all of the Alliance relics on his side.

If he manages to kill Rhea/Seiros before he strikes, then he has a much better shot at it. But that doesn't happen even in Crimson Flower.

It's not about whether Claude would really accept it so much as that's literally the ONLY source he would have. Rhea doesn't need to narrate or tell anything. Everything Claude researched about the Church and the Relics, particularly about the War of Heroes, everything in regards to it would be that the Ten Elites fought alongside Seiros and the Four Saints, wielding the Relics to defeat Nemesis. 

Also, Claude proves how he is willing to do a lot to cling to power in the Alliance, as he incites infighting himself to prevent the Alliance from splitting in CF, and takes advantage of the more violent infighting in the other routes to still keep the Alliance together. And given how there are plenty of nobles that don't actually like the Church itself, given how there are plenty of nobles that sided with Edelgard on their own, even mentioned by Lorenz's CF dialogue, it's still showing how he has the advantage. 

So if he gets Byleth and the Sword of the Creator on his side, and has the other Alliance Relics, then he's got the biggest advantage to the war and would have the highest power that would force the others to overall comply. 

Of course, what he doesn't realize is the actual truth that Rhea knows. Plus, we know for a fact that Claude does want Rhea dead. He makes it much more clear in the JP version.

11 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

I feel like you missed/are ignoring an entire point of the game where TWSitD are behind, well, everything. They are the ones who want a war, and the Tragedy of Duscur is how it was started. If it was immediately found out that TWSitD/the Empire were behind the tragedy in the first place, and a war started from there, Dimitri wouldn't be the cause of that war, TWSitD would be. That extends to how Dimitri would react upon finding out the truth.

Not really, dude. If anyone is ignoring the other factor, it's the fact that you're ignoring that even if Edelgard did not start the war. Dimitri seeking revenge on Arundel would cause a war. You wanna point at the semantics, it doesn't matter. The point literally stands. Dimitri, in his quest for revenge, would have triggered a war to happen. Like, dude, you're trying a little too hard to pretend that Dimitri starting a war is something that he should not be blamed for by any means, but no. He can. He could choose to not go to war and cause the deaths of countless more people. But he would go to war. 

This is primarily why Dimitri in CF is very big on being a self-righteous hypocrite.

11 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

You're the one who is trying to spin it, because no matter what, Edelgard attacked first, which was completely unprovoked on Claude's end.

Feigned neutrality, stated literally by the narration, bro. Facts are facts, bro. Not sure how much you wanna try to spin it, you aren't winning this argument here by trying to work around.

11 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is proof of them having relations, not about their laws being based on by the church (which is what Separation of Church and State is always about). For example, Rhea still hangs around to crown the next Emperor, but that was always due to their history with the Church helping their founding.

Yeah, no. The fact is, the Church still held political influence. In fact, when Edelgard declared war on the Church, even in Crimson Flower, there was a mass discord that spread among the populace. 

Quote

By making an enemy of the church, disorder is running rampant among the populace. It's quieted down over the last five years though. The well-being of Her Majesty is steadily improving.

And as you said, the archbishop is still the one that has to be there for the next emperor to be coronated officially. This is unnecessary by Edelgard's point given that she intends to go to war with the Church, though she used Byleth's presence as an excuse, so who knows on that. Either way, the Church still held influence in the Empire. 

And once again, you are missing the point. Edelgard overall stripped the Church of all political power, therefore, the Church holds no influences over politics, and no longer is there any military force needed. 

11 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Once again, we do not know what these new studies are, they are just left to our imagination (headcanon).

Nope. They said "renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status", which means they are re-doing the same thing that they did before (accept students with a high amount of tuition).

... Really, dude? You are this much obsessed with trying to argue around it just cause you don't want to admit it that you would start trying to make up as many headcanons as possible? 

Renewed focus does not mean that they are doing the exact same thing again, since it's been stated by NPC and characters alike in routes that the war has made it that the Church has to change, so even how they handle things in the Garreg Mach changes as well. 

Also, keep in mind about something else. 

Garreg Mach is of the Officer's Academy, in other words, a military school. It was built after the very first invasion of Almyra, resulting in Rhea establishing the military school to train people to fight. This is also how people get into becoming knights. This isn't a case where they actually get to receive the education needed to become nobility. Hence why stating that they are now teaching more practical subjects is to actually train them to be able to learn how to move up the social ladder.

I don't know why you are trying to wave off what is literally written there especially since Edelgard and Ferdinand talked about establishing a free education system to replace nobility. 

8 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Dude, it is a medieval society. Church and Religion are at heart of how the State works, in terms of education, influence on society, and political power. You said it yourself, emperors get Archbishop as 'witness' for their crowning ceremony (and a 1000 years old tradition? Boy you can bet your very soul that sometihng that old carry a hell of a weight). That's pretty much textbook divine right to rule, and echoing RL HRE where the pope was the one crowning the emperor. It's hard to get closer relationships betweeen Church and State than that (and elsewhere... 'Holy' Kingdom, dedicated branchs of the Church... Seriously?)

The archbishop also crowns the King of Faerghus too. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

The point literally stands. Dimitri, in his quest for revenge, would have triggered a war to happen. Like, dude, you're trying a little too hard to pretend that Dimitri starting a war is something that he should not be blamed for by any means, but no. He can. He could choose to not go to war and cause the deaths of countless more people. But he would go to war. 

 

10 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Thing is, Dimitri is the one pulling the trigger here.

Are you suggesting that, if Dimitri immediately found out it was TWSitD/the Empire behind the murder of his father (instead of the Duscur people), and started a war over it, it would be Dimitri's fault for the war starting? By that logic, if Dimitri were to kill/attack Arundel (in the current time), and a war came out of that, it would be the Empire's fault for starting a war.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Feigned neutrality, stated literally by the narration, bro. Facts are facts, bro. Not sure how much you wanna try to spin it, you aren't winning this argument here by trying to work around.

The "facade of neutrality" is to try to show that there isn't infighting going on in his country. As far as we know, the Alliance has never attacked the Empire until they had to in retaliation. The Empire has always struck first (outside of VW).

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Renewed focus does not mean that they are doing the exact same thing again,

 

10 hours ago, Hardric62 said:

Renewed doesn't imply doing the exact same thing,

Maybe you need to look up the definition of renew: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/renewed

Renew is always used to repeat something under the same conditions.

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Just now, MrPerson0 said:

Are you suggesting that, if Dimitri immediately found out it was TWSitD/the Empire behind the murder of his father (instead of the Duscur people), and started a war over it, it would be Dimitri's fault for the war starting? By that logic, if Dimitri were to kill/attack Arundel (in the current time), and a war came out of that, it would be the Empire's fault for starting a war.

Yes, it would be Dimitri's fault. As I very much pointed out earlier, guess what happened in Radiant Dawn when the laguz learned that the Begnion Senate was behind the Serenes Massacre? For the sake of revenge/justice, they started a war, despite knowing that Lehran's Medallion could very well endanger all life. They did it anyways. 

Dimitri is shortsighted and straightforward. He was going to try and murder the one that he believed was responsible. The fact that he very easily blamed Edelgard despite hearing the Flame Emperor state in her conversation with Thales and Kronya that they were behind it, Dimitri still blamed Edelgard. So yeah, he isn't exactly the sharpest arrow. Dimitri was going to pull the trigger to starting the war. 

Trying to say that the the slithers are the ones that caused it cause they created the situation does not in any way change the literal fact that Dimitri would have performed an action that would have resulted in war. 

4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

The "facade of neutrality" is to try to show that there isn't infighting going on in his country. As far as we know, the Alliance has never attacked the Empire until they had to in retaliation. The Empire has always struck first (outside of VW).

A neutrality that they know is a facade. The Empire literally is well aware that there are multiple houses that wish to aid the Empire, but Claude took a firm stand as the anti-Imperial faction of the Alliance. Claude overall did take a stance in the war by making himself be against the Empire. Therefore, Edelgard has every right to attack. 

6 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Maybe you need to look up the definition of renew: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/renewed

Renew is always used to repeat something under the same conditions.

Are you missing the point of the entire context of things? You think that nothing changed in Garreg Mach after the war because you think that by the term "renew" means that it strictly focuses on that? Everything went right back the way it was? You realize that in every route, the Church changes, right? Nothing goes back to the way it was, so your logic of trying to say that it stays the same is absurd on so many levels and misses the very point of the ending. 

Not to mention that you're kind of trying to steer things away from the main point, as I've been noticing that you'd tended to do this entire time.

The literal fact and point stands.

Garreg Mach, in accordance to Edelgard's system, became part of the new education system that Edelgard was creating for the purpose of helping people have social mobility. This is fact. 

As Edelgard and Ferdinand's literal A support goes:

Quote

Ferdinand: I would not go so far as to say your way is "wrong." Just that another way might be better. If you insist upon undoing the nobility, then we must build something in its place. We can provide free education for all, and then select the highest-performing students for more intensive training and tutoring. I truly believe that people are products of their environment.
Edelgard: Finding a way to educate the people... Interesting. 

The funny thing is that even a lecture question by Hubert, which also goes about education. 

Quote

The weak-willed care little for how they are governed, but lady Edelgard wishes to open their eyes. How would you achieve this, in her position?

- The only way to help them is to educate them. 

Like, the entire point about wanting people to become more independent and not need gods, and wanting to tear down the nobility system requires people to become more competent. Therefore, the major thing needed is that they need to be better educated. 

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3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

It's not about whether Claude would really accept it so much as that's literally the ONLY source he would have. Rhea doesn't need to narrate or tell anything. Everything Claude researched about the Church and the Relics, particularly about the War of Heroes, everything in regards to it would be that the Ten Elites fought alongside Seiros and the Four Saints, wielding the Relics to defeat Nemesis.

Claude being skeptical of whether or not something is actually true will certainly factor into his plans, particularly if it carries a high degree of risk. Having only Church-sponsored propaganda to draw from - something he is very wary and cognizant of in the story - does not change this, either. Probably the biggest chink in all this theory crafting is that it makes Claude notably dumber and more careless than he actually is, even when he's younger and more cocky. If he does steal it, he's going to absolutely sure it does what he hopes it does, first.

Even when he has Byleth and the Sword of the Creator on his side in VW, he is careful and doesn't think he can just steamroll the other side. He clearly acknowledges the importance of fostering other allies.

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, Claude proves how he is willing to do a lot to cling to power in the Alliance, as he incites infighting himself to prevent the Alliance from splitting in CF, and takes advantage of the more violent infighting in the other routes to still keep the Alliance together. And given how there are plenty of nobles that don't actually like the Church itself, given how there are plenty of nobles that sided with Edelgard on their own, even mentioned by Lorenz's CF dialogue, it's still showing how he has the advantage. 

House Gloucester sides with the Empire in every route out of survival than any ideological commitment to Edelgard and the Empire. That motivation won't be there in the hypothetical you're arguing: Gloucester will have both an ideological reason (devout Church follower) and a self-interest reason (may finally get to be leader of the Alliance) to back Rhea/Seiros against Claude. And the odds in his favor do not look as overwhelming as you think it does.

Also would not assume the Empire will operate the same way as the Alliance, particularly when the game goes out of its way to inform you how little unity the latter typically has. And that even if the narration calls Claude the "adept new leader" of the Alliance, they're not super happy with him "neglecting Alliance territory", and he does not get full commitments from them until they're spoken to by Rhea's chosen successor. It's implied that the territory was split into anti/pro-Imperial factions, implying it was more than just Gloucester. And unlike Gloucester, I'm not sure they're worried about immediate Empire invasion of their territory, or that they actually agree with Edelgard in regard to the Church, so much as angling for more power (lol@Acheron) and siding with the faction most likely to achieve that ends for them. There's nothing to suggest they're doing it because they don't like the Church.

This is why I wished VW was more of a political intrigue route than a copy paste of Silver Snow's beats, but whatever. That is a different complaint.

 

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Of course, what he doesn't realize is the actual truth that Rhea knows. Plus, we know for a fact that Claude does want Rhea dead. He makes it much more clear in the JP version.

I thought it was pretty clear he was flirting with that idea even in the English version, and the game explains why Rhea/the Church is an obstacle in his goal of busting open Fodlan's Throat. Getting rid of Rhea before trying to take over the world reduces the risk involved considerably, instead of royally pissing her off by stealing a fabled relic he isn't entirely sure he can even use or that it does what the stories says it does.

It also makes it abundantly obvious that Claude suspects his interpretation of what he's read isn't 100% true. So expecting him to put so much stock in the mythology of the Sword of the Creator, in a way that spectacularly puts his plans in danger and limits his contingency plans, is not very convincing.

All this aside, I do agree that the Slitherers being the evil manipulative pricks they are does not absolve Dimitri of the responsibility of the decisions he makes as an easily emotionally manipulated leader any more than it absolves Edelgard of her decisions - whose trauma they have a heavy hand in, too.

 

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2 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Claude being skeptical of whether or not something is actually true will certainly factor into his plans, particularly if it carries a high degree of risk. Having only Church-sponsored propaganda to draw from - something he is very wary and cognizant of in the story - does not change this, either. Probably the biggest chink in all this theory crafting is that it makes Claude notably dumber and more careless than he actually is, even when he's younger and more cocky. If he does steal it, he's going to absolutely sure it does what he hopes it does, first.

Even when he has Byleth and the Sword of the Creator on his side in VW, he is careful and doesn't think he can just steamroll the other side. He clearly acknowledges the importance of fostering other allies.

Obviously. Claude isn't that much of an idiot that he wouldn't plan for the idea of things going bad. That's WHY he wants to make sure that the Sword of the Creator is on his side. It's a major power and would be very much beneficial with him. It being against him would definitely put a wrench in his plans. He wants to at least account that he would have the biggest advantages on his side. With teh Alliance united, the Relics, the Sword of the Creator, Byleth, and the Almyrans, he can very well have the advantage and win any conflict if it comes, but he can hope that they won't go to war for it and just surrender. He does admit that he would scheme and use dirty tricks to win a battle before it even begins. 

7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

House Gloucester sides with the Empire in every route out of survival than any ideological commitment to Edelgard and the Empire. That motivation won't be there in the hypothetical you're arguing: Gloucester will have both an ideological reason and a self-interest reason to back Rhea/Seiros against Claude. And the odds in his favor do not look as overwhelming as you think it does.

Also would not assume the Empire will operate the same way as the Alliance, particularly when the game goes out of its way to inform you how little unity the latter typically has. And that even if the narration calls Claude the "adept new leader" of the Alliance, they're not super happy with him "neglecting Alliance territory", and he does not get full commitments from them until they're spoken to by Rhea's chosen successor. It's implied that the territory was split into anti/pro-Imperial factions, implying it was more than just Gloucester. And unlike Gloucester, I'm not sure they're worried about immediate Empire invasion of their territory so much as angling for more power (lol@Acheron).

Gloucester is leading the Imperial faction, but as the narration states, he works to make the appearance that the Alliance is still unified. And as shown in Verdant Wind, he tries to make the attack on the Great Bridge of Myrrdin to get the Imperial army to leave so that Count Gloucester would no longer have to worry about the Empire breathing down his neck. 

Also, there's a reason why Claude used Byleth as a figurehead leader, so that he can use Byleth to keep everyone united. Not to mention, thanks to Byleth lacking in prejudice, there's nothing to prevent anyone from questioning things if Byleth were to approve of Almyrans coming in. Claude overall tends to account for multiple things, though because it's so roundabout, it isn't seen as easily.

11 minutes ago, Crysta said:

This is why I wished VW was more of a political intrigue route than a copy paste of Silver Snow's beats, but whatever. That is a different complaint.

I'm in total agreement with you here. Not to mention that it sacrifices a lot of the theme of Claude's entire journey that it feels out of place, really.

12 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I thought it was pretty clear he was flirting with that idea even in the English version, and the game explains why Rhea/the Church is an obstacle in his goal of busting open Fodlan's Throat. Getting rid of Rhea before trying to take over the world reduces the risk involved considerably, instead of royally pissing her off by stealing a fabled relic he isn't entirely sure he can even use or that it does what the stories says it does.

It also makes it abundantly obvious that Claude suspects his interpretation of what he's read isn't 100% true. So expecting him to put so much stock in the mythology of the Sword of the Creator, in a way that spectacularly puts his plans in danger and limits his contingency plans, is not very convincing.

Wanting Rhea out of the way because she poses a threat is definitely something that would not be easy to perform, especially since he never would have even learned that she was a dragon, so if he ever tried to assassinate her, even in secret, it was going to fail no matter what. 

14 minutes ago, Crysta said:

All this aside, I do agree that the Slitherers being the evil manipulative pricks they are does not absolve Dimitri of the responsibility of the decisions he makes as an easily emotionally manipulated leader any more than it absolves Edelgard of her decisions - whose trauma they have a heavy hand in, too.

It's a very moral grey story. I am unwilling to even believe the idea that the Agarthans were as morally black in the past as Rhea makes it out to be. Given how the slithers seem to downright despise her more than Sothis, it seems more than likely that Rhea is the reason that the Agarthan civilization was destroyed. 

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes, it would be Dimitri's fault.

Once again, with your very same logic, if the Empire declared war for Arundel's death, the blame for the war would lie on the Empire, because, like Dimitri, they want revenge. This is how your argument sounds, and not many would agree with it.

58 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The fact that he very easily blamed Edelgard despite hearing the Flame Emperor state in her conversation with Thales and Kronya that they were behind it, Dimitri still blamed Edelgard. So yeah, he isn't exactly the sharpest arrow.

Uh, Jeralt didn't believe that the Flame Emperor when she said that she had nothing to do with the Remire Village incident either. Are you going to suggest that people should outright believe anything when a criminal says that they didn't commit a crime?

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Trying to say that the the slithers are the ones that caused it cause they created the situation does not in any way change the literal fact that Dimitri would have performed an action that would have resulted in war. 

Once again, TWSitD are the ones who committed the action first. Suggesting that it's Dimitri's fault if he immediately declared war right after his father's death

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Empire literally is well aware that there are multiple houses that wish to aid the Empire, but Claude took a firm stand as the anti-Imperial faction of the Alliance. Claude overall did take a stance in the war by making himself be against the Empire. Therefore, Edelgard has every right to attack. 

No, she didn't have every right to attack, because at the time, the Alliance didn't attack them whatsoever. That's like saying Edelgard had every right to start her war, even though she was the one who triggered it.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Garreg Mach, in accordance to Edelgard's system, became part of the new education system that Edelgard was creating for the purpose of helping people have social mobility. This is fact. 

As Edelgard and Ferdinand's literal A support goes:

I find it interesting how you point out that, in the AM ending, it just states that Dimitri wanted to create a world free from oppression, but we don't know if he actually did it. However, with that support, we know that Edelgard wanted to create a free educational system, but we still don't have concrete evidence if she managed to go through with that.

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2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Once again, with your very same logic, if the Empire declared war for Arundel's death, the blame for the war would lie on the Empire, because, like Dimitri, they want revenge. This is how your argument sounds, and not many would agree with it.

Here's the problem with your logic. You try to overall argue that if Dimitri reveals that Arundel killed Lambert, that would trigger a war still. Problem there is that Dimitri's logic is bad. He doesn't actually run on concrete evidence, but overall circumstantial and illogical jumps in conclusion. This is how he legit jumps to blaming Edelgard for the Tragedy even though she legitimately has way of doing this. 

Dimitri attacks Arundel? Present event and would have all the evidence to mark Dimitri of the crime. Either Dimitri, the crown prince dies, or there will be war. What odds do you believe that Dimitri would be executed for his actions? 

Look, dude, I can tell by your words that you like Dimitri a lot, but there's way too much effort in trying to defend Dimitri here and trying t act like Dimitri won't start a freaking war in his quest for revenge. Like, dude. If you actually do love Dimitri, know how to accept the bad aspects of him. Not like Edelgard fans like myself actually deny that she's done wrong things.

7 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Uh, Jeralt didn't believe that the Flame Emperor when she said that she had nothing to do with the Remire Village incident either. Are you going to suggest that people should outright believe anything when a criminal says that they didn't commit a crime?

... I'm sorry, have you played Blue Lions? If you had, you'd recall that Dimitri was listening in on what was a PRIVATE conversation between the Flame Emperor and the slithers, where she not only tells the slithers to basically go to hell, but also points out how they were responsible for both the Tragedy and Insurrection. And yet, Dimitri still jumped the gun and blamed the Flame Emperor/Edelgard. 

Like, dude. This is just reaching to new levels here.

9 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Once again, TWSitD are the ones who committed the action first. Suggesting that it's Dimitri's fault if he immediately declared war right after his father's death

If he knew and had evidence, and reported it, you can make plenty of justification for the war. But as I pointed out, Dimitri doesn't exactly have the best detective skills.

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

No, she didn't have every right to attack, because at the time, the Alliance didn't attack them whatsoever. That's like saying Edelgard had every right to start her war, even though she was the one who triggered it.

Why not? She made an official declaration of war, sent out manifestos to every lord in the continent to declare their allegiances. 

Also, you know, since you love doing this little trick so much, but your logic, Dimitri was 100% in the wrong to overall want to "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM" in the other routes during Gronder, attacking even the Alliance soldiers, when legit, they oughta be allies against the Empire. So Dimitri basically attacked the Alliance when they didn't actually provoke any need to warrant an attack, you know. 

Seriously, stop trying to circlejerk this entire thing into a "No U" situation. Like, seriously. The neutrality was feigned, Claude took a stance against the Empire and as proven by the overall situation, Edelgard was 100% in the right to have attacked when she did. No matter how you want to slice it, she made the correct judgment. 

The most you can push out is that she made a morally dubious choice. That's it.

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I find it interesting how you point out that, in the AM ending, it just states that Dimitri wanted to create a world free from oppression, but we don't know if he actually did it. However, with that support, we know that Edelgard wanted to create a free educational system, but we still don't have concrete evidence if she managed to go through with that.

I find it interesting how you love to ignore what Manuela and Hanneman's ending literally stated and ignored all the other arguments I pointed out. Seems you don't like to actually acknowledge sound debates, but instead want to believe that your headcanons are the only thing correct.

---

I've been patient with you for a while now, but having the need to repeat myself repeatedly has grown aggravating. If you are seriously going to circlejerk this entire discussion again and again where you refuse to acknowledge any of the points I've been making despite how I've been using literal dialogue and quotes from the game itself that supports what I said (quite a lot), then you are clearly not interested in actually coming to an understanding, in which case, you're wasting everyone's time.

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Probably the problem is the fact Dimitri's belief (uphold the Crests and the nobility as needed) clash with his ideals and desires (stop opression).

Also, about the War; the War is overall in the fault of the Agarthans and the Adrestian Nobility. But the blame would be put in whoever decided to make the first public step.

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Just now, Troykv said:

Also, about the War; the War is overall in the fault of the Agarthans and the Adrestian Nobility. But the blame would be put in whoever decided to make the first public step.

Sure. They wanted the war overall. Edelgard decided to take matters to her own hands in the end. Simply put, the main point of the argument here is that the war is inevitable.

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46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Obviously. Claude isn't that much of an idiot that he wouldn't plan for the idea of things going bad. That's WHY he wants to make sure that the Sword of the Creator is on his side. It's a major power and would be very much beneficial with him. It being against him would definitely put a wrench in his plans. He wants to at least account that he would have the biggest advantages on his side. With teh Alliance united, the Relics, the Sword of the Creator, Byleth, and the Almyrans, he can very well have the advantage and win any conflict if it comes, but he can hope that they won't go to war for it and just surrender. He does admit that he would scheme and use dirty tricks to win a battle before it even begins. 

You know, for someone who desperately wants the Sword of the Creator himself or the wielder on his side so he can manipulate and use them, he makes surprisingly little effort to curry Byleth's favor outside of his own route. And it's not like he doesn't have easy access to Byleth, even if he's tutoring another class.

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Obviously. Claude isn't that much of an idiot that he wouldn't plan for the idea of things going bad. That's WHY he wants to make sure that the Sword of the Creator is on his side.

Stealing the Sword of the Creator would be what triggers the bad things. The Sword of the Creator would undoubtedly be useful to him, but he would know stealing it would be igniting the powder keg. You have not sold me on the idea that using the Sword of the Creator alone to defeat his enemies and become Supreme Ruler is the first and most promising plan he has to defeat Rhea and make his dream a reality, that he would think that's a great plan, and if he could simply acquire or use the Sword of the Creator he would think fracturing the Alliance doesn't matter.

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Gloucester is leading the Imperial faction, but as the narration states, he works to make the appearance that the Alliance is still unified. And as shown in Verdant Wind, he tries to make the attack on the Great Bridge of Myrrdin to get the Imperial army to leave so that Count Gloucester would no longer have to worry about the Empire breathing down his neck.

Yes, I know. I have played Verdant Wind three times now. They simply need to remove the Imperial threat to Gloucester for him to jump back to the Alliance side because a) Byleth is the representative of the Church of Seiros and on Claude's side and b) Gloucester wasn't leading that faction because of his love for the Empire and - in spite of all his implied flaws and cooperation with the Empire - his interests lie in the Alliance. He is not truly Edelgard's ally, and if his territory wasn't in immediate danger, I suspect he'd have plenty of problems with her crusade against the Church and her plans to get rid of the caste system.

My point is if it's Claude versus Rhea, he's siding with Rhea, particularly because he's been wanting to topple House Riegan for years and she's not at the political or power disadvantage you think she is if she's alive and pissed off. He'll have a much more compelling reasons to side with Rhea than he did when he sided with Edelgard, and since it's implied that he's the power player in Alliance politics, he may very well take the other Houses who follow his lead with him.

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, there's a reason why Claude used Byleth as a figurehead leader, so that he can use Byleth to keep everyone united. Not to mention, thanks to Byleth lacking in prejudice, there's nothing to prevent anyone from questioning things if Byleth were to approve of Almyrans coming in. Claude overall tends to account for multiple things, though because it's so roundabout, it isn't seen as easily.

This just kind of supports my theory that the politics matter just as much, if not more, than an ancient weapon of immense power. Claude bringing in the Almyrans without any prompting, while fighting the Church, makes it even more likely for the Alliance to splinter because he's bringing in the guys who routinely invade their territory. A Church-sanctioned Byleth isn't there to assuage that fear. I guarantee that's great propaganda fodder for the other side, too.

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wanting Rhea out of the way because she poses a threat is definitely something that would not be easy to perform, especially since he never would have even learned that she was a dragon, so if he ever tried to assassinate her, even in secret, it was going to fail no matter what. 

Yeah probably.

In all seriousness, assassinating Gloucester and covertly supporting the Church rebels may be the safer plan. Then stealing the Sword of the Creator - even without Byleth or the capability of using it - to trigger Rhea into making some wildly unpopular decisions that could make him look like the good guy. 

46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I am unwilling to even believe the idea that the Agarthans were as morally black in the past as Rhea makes it out to be. Given how the slithers seem to downright despise her more than Sothis, it seems more than likely that Rhea is the reason that the Agarthan civilization was destroyed. 

The Agarthian leadership was probably rotten, in all honesty. That seems to be a running theme here.

Though I think they allude far more to Sothis than Rhea.

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43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If you actually do love Dimitri, know how to accept the bad aspects of him.

I do accept the bad aspects of him. My question to you is, if it was immediately revealed after Lambert's death that Arundel was behind it, and a war started over it, would you still blame Dimitri for starting the war? One thing I have been constantly saying is yes, war is inevitable, but this is due to the actions of TWSitD, not the actions of Dimitri or Claude.

43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If he knew and had evidence, and reported it, you can make plenty of justification for the war. But as I pointed out, Dimitri doesn't exactly have the best detective skills.

You really can't say that. We don't know what he would have done once he pieced more information about Arundel together. What he did with Edelgard is a completely different issue, since he snapped the moment that his crush turned out to be a villain.

43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Like, dude. This is just reaching to new levels here.

Seeing that you ignored that Jeralt did not believe a word of what the Flame Emperor specifically said to him, why do you think people should expect to believe the Flame Emperor in that conversation, especially when that was the moment he found out their identity, and that Edelgard has been constantly lying to everyone?

43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, you know, since you love doing this little trick so much, but your logic, Dimitri was 100% in the wrong to overall want to "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM" in the other routes during Gronder, attacking even the Alliance soldiers, when legit, they oughta be allies against the Empire. So Dimitri basically attacked the Alliance when they didn't actually provoke any need to warrant an attack, you know. 

I have never disagreed with this, however, the Gronder battle is probably not the best place to try to suggest leaning for one side or the other, since Claude outright tries to attack the Blue Lions as well, which most players thinks makes no sense. Nonetheless, it seems you really have tried to deflect the conversation for some reason.

43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The neutrality was feigned, Claude took a stance against the Empire and as proven by the overall situation, Edelgard was 100% in the right to have attacked when she did. No matter how you want to slice it, she made the correct judgment. 

Once again, "feigned neutrality" in this case is trying to make it seem that the Alliance is in one piece, not about which side he chose:

Quote

As leader of the Alliance, Claude maintains a facade of neutrality amidst infighting between those who support and those who oppose the Empire.

Nothing about that actually shows that Claude is on one side or the other. It would be the same if there was a war between the US and Mexico, but there were some provinces in Canada who wanted to join the US. Canada wanting to maintain its country and neutral position wouldn't be seen as siding with either of those countries. That means Edelgard was in the wrong to attack the Alliance there since he never attacked first. If he did, then she would be in the right to retaliate (exactly the same with her war against the Church, since she was wrong to attack first).

43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I find it interesting how you love to ignore what Manuela and Hanneman's ending literally stated and ignored all the other arguments I pointed out.

Because the only difference is mentioning that Empire transforming and rehabilitating the Church, and that it offered more classes on practical subjects. We do not know what these entail, and neither case points to free education.

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