The Inevitability of War in 3H

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

You know, for someone who desperately wants the Sword of the Creator himself or the wielder on his side so he can manipulate and use them, he makes surprisingly little effort to curry Byleth's favor outside of his own route. And it's not like he doesn't have easy access to Byleth, even if he's tutoring another class.

Let's be real here. This is the case for almost any route. Like, Edelgard basically hints she's obsessed or in love with Byleth even in routes outside her own, but she hardly makes any effort to approach him in the BL and GD routes. 

6 minutes ago, Crysta said:

You know, for someone who desperately wants the Sword of the Creator himself or the wielder on his side so he can manipulate and use them, he makes surprisingly little effort to curry Byleth's favor outside of his own route. And it's not like he doesn't have easy access to Byleth, even if he's tutoring another class.

The question isn't whether he would steal it immediately. The first step is to find it. His quote proved that he clearly had been searching for it. Now that he found it, it's a matter of how he could get the weapon on his side. In the end, the circumstances had it that Byleth got it and is likely the only one that can wield it. So that would mean the best thing would be wanting Byleth on his side. 

We never understand the full context of how he was going about his plan. We're left guessing thanks to Edelgard making the first shot. 

9 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Yes, I know. I have played Verdant Wind three times now. They simply need to remove the Imperial threat to Gloucester for him to jump back to the Alliance side because a) Byleth is the representative of the Church of Seiros and on Claude's side and b) Gloucester wasn't leading that faction because of his love for the Empire and - in spite of all his implied flaws and cooperation with the Empire - his interests lie in the Alliance. He is not truly Edelgard's ally, and if his territory wasn't in immediate danger, I suspect he'd have plenty of problems with her crusade against the Church and her plans to get rid of the caste system.

My point is if it's Claude versus Rhea, he's siding with Rhea, particularly because he's been wanting to topple House Riegan for years and she's not at the political or power disadvantage you think she is if she's alive and pissed off. He'll have a much more compelling reasons to side with Rhea than he did when he sided with Edelgard, and since it's implied that he's the power player in Alliance politics, he may very well take the other Houses who follow his lead with him.

Claude strikes as someone that acts in accordance to adapting to the situation as it evolves. In the story, he's clearly siding against the Empire, since they are the aggressors, and the Knights of Seiros are a power force that could be very beneficial to him. Depending on his plan, he could very well have gone against the Church if it could benefit him. Claude admits himself that he would only help someone if it benefited him. In the routes, he helped Rhea cause he saw it as beneficial. 

19 minutes ago, Crysta said:

This just kind of supports my theory that the politics matter just as much, if not more, than an ancient weapon of immense power. Claude bringing in the Almyrans without any prompting, while fighting the Church, makes it even more likely for the Alliance to splinter because he's bringing in the guys who routinely invade their territory. A Church-sanctioned Byleth isn't there to assuage that fear. I guarantee that's great propaganda fodder for the other side, too.

It overall depends on how he plays his cards. After all, he got the Almyrans in during both Crimson Flower and Verdant Wind and there clearly didn't seem to be any issues from bringing them up. Claude's plan in the most simplistic forms are:

- Unite the Alliance

- Unite all of Fodlan

But how exactly he planned to actually address that never really got explained. 

25 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Yeah probably.

In all seriousness, assassinating Gloucester and covertly supporting the Church rebels may be the safer plan. Then stealing the Sword of the Creator - even without Byleth or the capability of using it - to trigger Rhea into making some wildly unpopular decisions that could make him look like the good guy. 

That's if he could. Count Gloucester was already someone that was running assassination attempts before. Not sure if he wouldn't see attempts on his own life coming. Honestly, Claude no doubt wanted Lorenz to take over sooner or later so that Lorenz would be a good ally to have. 

26 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The Agarthian leadership was probably rotten, in all honesty. That seems to be a running theme here.

Though I think they allude far more to Sothis than Rhea.

Possibly in regards to leadership, but I'm unwilling to believe that they were all bad. 

Given how the slithers are fine with Byleth in CF, and how the slithers never once address Sothis as a beast, despite the hatred, there's an amount of respect for her. But Rhea is someone that has been expressed with utter contempt and hatred. In CF, she was a false goddess and a beast, and in the JP version of Shambhala chapter, Thales mentions that their "most hated" enemy arrived. 

Since we can actually rule out that Byleth is not actually it thanks to CF, it's clear that it's Rhea. Keep in mind that Edelgard hid Rhea away for five years where the slithers could not reach her. 

[omegaxis1]

15 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I do accept the bad aspects of him. My question to you is, if it was immediately revealed after Lambert's death that Arundel was behind it, and a war started over it, would you still blame Dimitri for starting the war? One thing I have been constantly saying is yes, war is inevitable, but this is due to the actions of TWSitD, not the actions of Dimitri or Claude.

Yes. Because this is in accordance to how Edelgard started the war. It's inevitable. 

If Edelgard didn't do something to cause it or declare it, Dimitri and Claude would have done something to do something similar. Dimitri, in his desire for revenge, would have triggered a war if he attacked Arundel. 

16 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Seeing that you ignored that Jeralt did not believe a word of what the Flame Emperor specifically said to him, why do you think people should expect to believe the Flame Emperor in that conversation, especially when that was the moment he found out their identity, and that Edelgard has been constantly lying to everyone?

The difference between how the Flame Emperor is talking to the evil cohorts IN PRIVATE compared to how the Flame Emperor talks to Jeralt is the literally between heaven and earth, dude. 

You are legit going to have the idea that Dimitri listening in secret and hearing the Flame Emperor expose that the ones responsible for the Tragedy was Thales and Kronya, having not yet realized that Dimitri was listening in, and you are saying that it is the same as the case of Remire when the Flame Emperor talks to Jeralt? 

Dude, this is what I mean by the effort of you reaching. This is literal common sense that you are trying to ignore here. 

Dimitri listened on a private conversation, heard the Flame Emperor state that Thales was behind it, and Thales does not, in any way, deny this. 

Dimitri doesn't even blame Edelgard for being involved. No, he blames her solely for being the one behind it all. 

This is fact, no matter how much you wish to deny it.

20 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I have never disagreed with this, however, the Gronder battle is probably not the best place to try to suggest leaning for one side or the other, since Claude outright tries to attack the Blue Lions as well, which most players thinks makes no sense. Nonetheless, it seems you really have tried to deflect the conversation for some reason.

It never makes any sense, but it's legit obvious that the Kingdom was the aggressor of it, given how Claude talks to Byleth. Gameplay function idiocy, it's clearly obvious that Dimitri attacked first.

21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Once again, "feigned neutrality" in this case is trying to make it seem that the Alliance is in one piece, not about which side he chose:

 

21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Nothing about that actually shows that Claude is on one side or the other. It would be the same if there was a war between the US and Mexico, but there were some provinces in Canada who wanted to join the US. Canada wanting to maintain its country and neutral position wouldn't be seen as siding with either of those countries. That means Edelgard was in the wrong to attack the Alliance there since he never attacked first. If he did, then she would be in the right to retaliate (exactly the same with her war against the Church, since she was wrong to attack first).

Dude, it's made clear that Claude is against the Empire and is with the anti-Imperial faction. 

Here're quotes:

Quote

Edelgard: House Riegan stands against the Empire... Therefore, our target is Derdriu, the Aquatic Capital.

Quote

Hubert: As for the Alliance, Houses Gloucester and Ordelia seem predisposed to to capitulate to us. However, due to interference from Houses Riegan and Goneril, we have yet to secure their cooperation. Claude obviously hopes to keep the Alliance whole through diplomacy. But because we have had to focus our efforts against the church until now, our forces have yet to meet his. We have only recently begun to take the fight to Alliance territory.

Quote

Hubert: House Riegan is not only Claude's house, but also the flagship of those who oppose the Empire within the Alliance. If House Riegan falls, the other Alliance lords will be tripping over themselves to join us. That is why we cannot fail to take Derdriu.

Quote

Claude: I daresay Fodlan would be a lot more peaceful without me around. Right, Your Majesty?
Edelgard: It's as you say. So long as you remain here, the faction of the Alliance that is against the Empire will continue to support you.

Claude is the one that stood against the Empire, being part of the anti-Imperial faction, but he does things in so to keep the Alliance together and the other Houses doesn't side with Edelgard. 

27 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Because the only difference is mentioning that Empire transforming and rehabilitating the Church, and that it offered more classes on practical subjects. We do not know what these entail, and neither case points to free education.

Are you for real right now?

Like, is it that hard for you to put two and two together? Why do you think that Hanneman and Manuela's ending has this text change STRICTLY in Crimson Flower and no other? They could have legit left out the practical subjects out and said that the Church was rebuilt by the Empire and that's it. But no, they went in and added in the need to mention practical subjects.

Is it that hard to figure out? 

Or the literal case of how Hubert's lecture question involves how they need to educate the people?

I'm sorry, but trying to act as if these are not connected is foolhardy, especially since Edelgard goes about to abolish nobility. Why is this so hard for you to accept? Facts are facts. I don't know why you are feeling this urge to make it difficult other than the fact that you don't want to accept that Edelgard makes better changes than Dimitri. That's the impression you are starting to give.

[MrPerson0]

13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If Edelgard didn't do something to cause it or declare it, Dimitri and Claude would have done something to do something similar. Dimitri, in his desire for revenge, would have triggered a war if he attacked Arundel. 

Once again, Claude, your points are very flaky on. As for Dimitri,

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You are legit going to have the idea that Dimitri listening in secret and hearing the Flame Emperor expose that the ones responsible for the Tragedy was Thales and Kronya, having not yet realized that Dimitri was listening in, and you are saying that it is the same as the case of Remire when the Flame Emperor talks to Jeralt? 

Right after Edelgard state it, we immediately see them assuming that there are prying ears among them. Also, this doesn't change the fact that, right after this, Dimitri found out who the Flame Emperor was, which literally broke him, because as it turns out, Edelgard has been lying to everyone this whole time. Even though he was wrong in her blame him for blaming Edelgard, because she has betrayed him, along with everyone else, by constantly lying and not telling them about who was truly behind it.

17 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Gameplay function idiocy, it's clearly obvious that Dimitri attacked first.

Unless you are in AM, and they attack you. As I said, no one will try to use this battle to show allegiances because it makes no sense.

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dude, it's made clear that Claude is against the Empire and is with the anti-Imperial faction. 

Thanks for point that out, guess it is true that he is against the Empire. However, this still doesn't mean that he would have been able to attack them because of the split in views.

20 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Like, is it that hard for you to put two and two together?

It is when you are trying to make something out of nothing, especially when the part you have quoted ("with a renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status") to try to push the free education part is exactly the same on all paths.

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Let's be real here. This is the case for almost any route. Like, Edelgard basically hints she's obsessed or in love with Byleth even in routes outside her own, but she hardly makes any effort to approach him in the BL and GD routes. 

The lords in the other routes don't have plans so contingent on the Sword of the Creator, which makes his disinterest in Byleth more glaring because you're contending it is of the cornerstones of his grand plan. Edelgard definitely expresses an interest in acquiring the Sword of the Creator as the Flame Emperor, at the very least, and does approach and make a play for it (you miss all the shots you don't take, after all). Claude doesn't even make the most token effort.

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The question isn't whether he would steal it immediately. The first step is to find it. His quote proved that he clearly had been searching for it. Now that he found it, it's a matter of how he could get the weapon on his side. In the end, the circumstances had it that Byleth got it and is likely the only one that can wield it. So that would mean the best thing would be wanting Byleth on his side.

If only this added up accordingly in every other route, too.

19 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

We never understand the full context of how he was going about his plan. We're left guessing thanks to Edelgard making the first shot. 

Part of the reason why it's easier to deduce what his plan isn't, rather than trying to deduce what it is. And why I'm not readily accepting your theory on what his plan was: there's more working against it than for it. I think it was a tool he wished to acquire, not the absolute key to his success, and there were going to be many more steps he'd have to take in order to succeed.

The way it's being presented here is that Claude thinks if he gets the Sword of the Creator,  because it's such an awesome weapon he also gets a united Alliance, all the Alliance relics, and no one can feasibly stop him unless they're blessed by the goddess like Rhea and Byleth... when apparently all you had to do to seriously incapacitate the previous wielders was to disarm them in a duel and Falcon Punch them or casually blast them off a cliff lol

28 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Claude strikes as someone that acts in accordance to adapting to the situation as it evolves. In the story, he's clearly siding against the Empire, since they are the aggressors, and the Knights of Seiros are a power force that could be very beneficial to him. Depending on his plan, he could very well have gone against the Church if it could benefit him. Claude admits himself that he would only help someone if it benefited him. In the routes, he helped Rhea cause he saw it as beneficial.

It doesn't benefit him if all he does is steal the Sword of the Creator, and doesn't mind the political implications. That puts him at a distinct disadvantage. Hence, I highly doubt it's Plan A. I doubt he's putting the amount of stock in the Sword of the Creator you think he is.

31 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

It overall depends on how he plays his cards. After all, he got the Almyrans in during both Crimson Flower and Verdant Wind and there clearly didn't seem to be any issues from bringing them up. Claude's plan in the most simplistic forms are:

- Unite the Alliance

- Unite all of Fodlan

But how exactly he planned to actually address that never really got explained. 

In your hypothetical, he's playing his cards very poorly.

He got them in Crimson Flower because he suffered presumably grievous losses at Gronder and this was his last shot to end it, so being picky about his methods when all he's got is a Hail Mary is not playing his cards well. You take the shot and deal with the consequences later, at that point.

He brings them in during Verdant Wind because, due to the political capital he and Byleth have acquired due to being the principal anti-Imperial faction AND having the support of the Alliance lords/Church, he can simply afford to. And it's not like there still isn't some WTFing going on when his closeness to Nader is revealed. I doubt Byleth and Claude will have that kind of political capital to expend if its Claude versus Rhea.

38 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's if he could. Count Gloucester was already someone that was running assassination attempts before. Not sure if he wouldn't see attempts on his own life coming. Honestly, Claude no doubt wanted Lorenz to take over sooner or later so that Lorenz would be a good ally to have. 

Even more of a reason to get rid of him if you can't use him yourself. It'd be easier than trying to eliminate a dragon, honestly, and would save him a bigger headache later.

In VW, Gloucester is an ally Claude is confident he can win over. In CF starring Claude, that is likely much more difficult and not worth the effort tbh.

42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Given how the slithers are fine with Byleth in CF, and how the slithers never once address Sothis as a beast, despite the hatred, there's an amount of respect for her. But Rhea is someone that has been expressed with utter contempt and hatred. In CF, she was a false goddess and a beast, and in the JP version of Shambhala chapter, Thales mentions that their "most hated" enemy arrived. 

Since we can actually rule out that Byleth is not actually it thanks to CF, it's clear that it's Rhea. Keep in mind that Edelgard hid Rhea away for five years where the slithers could not reach her. 

Uh they're fine with Byleth because he is working with their ally. As for Sothis I'm... pretty sure they helped Nemesis brutally murder her for power. I don't think they're as deferential to her as you think they are: she was their enemy before Rhea was.

Rhea is the one actively working against them in the current, and the current figurehead of the Church, so it makes sense that they reference her more.

[SigurdVII]

1 hour ago, Crysta said:

Though I think they allude far more to Sothis than Rhea.

They don't. The Agarthans only refer to Sothis twice. Solon when Byleth cuts his way out of Zahras. And Thales when Byleth confronts him in Shambhala. Otherwise whenever they or Edelgard refer to the False Goddess, it's always about Seiros. Thales makes this clear twice. Once in SS/VW in the JP version when he refers to their most hated enemy. And in CF when he talks about how he came to watch humanity finally be remove from the control of the False Goddess. The implication being that Sothis isn't the person they regard as responsible for their situation, but Seiros and the Nabateans. And given how they explicitly blame the Nabateans for stealing their light, there's quite a bit being hinted at rather than what Seiros claims to be the case.

[SigurdVII]

24 minutes ago, Crysta said:

The lords in the other routes don't have plans so contingent on the Sword of the Creator, which makes his disinterest in Byleth more glaring because you're contending it is of the cornerstones of his grand plan. Edelgard definitely expresses an interest in acquiring the Sword of the Creator as the Flame Emperor, at the very least, and does approach and make a play for it (you miss all the shots you don't take, after all). Claude doesn't even make the most token effort.

If only this added up accordingly in every other route, too.

Part of the reason why it's easier to deduce what his plan isn't, rather than trying to deduce what it is. And why I'm not readily accepting your theory on what his plan was: there's more working against it than for it. I think it was a tool he wished to acquire, not the absolute key to his success, and there were going to be many more steps he'd have to take in order to succeed.

The way it's being presented here is that Claude thinks if he gets the Sword of the Creator,  because it's such an awesome weapon he also gets a united Alliance, all the Alliance relics, and no one can feasibly stop him unless they're blessed by the goddess like Rhea and Byleth... when apparently all you had to do to seriously incapacitate the previous wielders was to disarm them in a duel and Falcon Punch them or casually blast them off a cliff lol

It doesn't benefit him if all he does is steal the Sword of the Creator, and doesn't mind the political implications. That puts him at a distinct disadvantage. Hence, I highly doubt it's Plan A. I doubt he's putting the amount of stock in the Sword of the Creator you think he is.

In your hypothetical, he's playing his cards very poorly.

He got them in Crimson Flower because he suffered presumably grievous losses at Gronder and this was his last shot to end it, so being picky about his methods when all he's got is a Hail Mary is not playing his cards well. You take the shot and deal with the consequences later, at that point.

He brings them in during Verdant Wind because, due to the political capital he and Byleth have acquired due to being the principal anti-Imperial faction AND having the support of the Alliance lords/Church, he can simply afford to. And it's not like there still isn't some WTFing going on when his closeness to Nader is revealed. I doubt Byleth and Claude will have that kind of political capital to expend if its Claude versus Rhea.

Even more of a reason to get rid of him if you can't use him yourself. It'd be easier than trying to eliminate a dragon, honestly, and would save him a bigger headache later.

In VW, Gloucester is an ally Claude is confident he can win over. In CF starring Claude, that is likely much more difficult and not worth the effort tbh.

Uh they're fine with Byleth because he is working with their ally. As for Sothis I'm... pretty sure they helped Nemesis brutally murder her for power. I don't think they're as deferential to her as you think they are: she was their enemy before Rhea was.

Rhea is the one actively working against them in the current, and the current figurehead of the Church, so it makes sense that they reference her more.

Point by point.

- Edelgard does in fact rely on the Sword of the Creator. She's the one who refers to it as capable of routing either the Adrestian Empire or the Seiros Knights. While she is prepared to face Byleth if it comes to it, her situation grinds to a halt because Faerghus joins forces with the Seiros Knights to take her on. Byleth is explicitly considered the turning point by her and Claude in the Empire's situation. Not to mention several times when she says only Byleth will be able to take on the Church's true power.

-And the reason why Claude doesn't make the token effort is for the same reason Edelgard doesn't take off her mask outside her own route. They're not not close. Claude already knew Byleth for several months before he acquired the Sword of the Creator. Therefore it was easier for them to become closer to each other (point of fact, in the JP version Claude declares them siblings just before the TS). So it was easier for him to initially try to manipulate Byleth, but then become close to one another. But he doesn't see a way when Byleth rejected him in other routes.

- You're forgetting that as far as Claude knows from the legends, the Sword of the Creator can split mountains. He has no other information otherwise. Just as Omega noted, he doesn't know that the Ten Elites worked for Nemesis rather than vice versa. He's like Edelgard in that as far as he knows, the legends of the Sword being badass are true. And even in the opening movie, we're not left with much reason to doubt that.

 

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, SigurdVII said:

They don't. The Agarthans only refer to Sothis twice. Solon when Byleth cuts his way out of Zahras. And Thales when Byleth confronts him in Shambhala. Otherwise whenever they or Edelgard refer to the False Goddess, it's always about Seiros. Thales makes this clear twice. Once in SS/VW in the JP version when he refers to their most hated enemy. And in CF when he talks about how he came to watch humanity finally be remove from the control of the False Goddess. The implication being that Sothis isn't the person they regard as responsible for their situation, but Seiros and the Nabateans. And given how they explicitly blame the Nabateans for stealing their light, there's quite a bit being hinted at rather than what Seiros claims to be the case.

I'll have to pay more attention to what they actually say re: them in my current VW run, then, but... that seems like a 2:2 ratio even with CF (which I haven't played).

[SigurdVII]

8 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'll have to pay more attention to what they actually say re: them in my current VW run, then, but... that seems like a 2:2 ratio even with CF (which I haven't played).

In case you're interested, this is what Thales doesn't say in the EN version of the Shambhala map.

Thales: その憎き仇が、今、この地に自ら現れた。となれば、我らのなすべきはただ一つ・・・・！

Thales: And now, our most hated enemy has decided to appear on our own land by their own accord. In other words, there is only one thing left that we have to do...!

And for the sake of clarity. The Calamity Star thing is a reference to a series of disaster stars in Chinese astrology Sirius/Sothis is one such star. It's a fancy way of saying Byleth is bad luck for them. But otherwise, the False Goddess thing is exclusive to Seiros. It makes more sense in the JP version where Rhea goes out of her way to much more overtly refer to the Goddess and center herself as her voice. 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by SigurdVII

[omegaxis1]

12 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Once again, Claude, your points are very flaky on. As for Dimitri,

Guy admits to wanting to unite the continent. Please, by all means, tell me how uniting the continent can be handled peacefully. 

13 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Right after Edelgard state it, we immediately see them assuming that there are prying ears among them. Also, this doesn't change the fact that, right after this, Dimitri found out who the Flame Emperor was, which literally broke him, because as it turns out, Edelgard has been lying to everyone this whole time. Even though he was wrong in her blame him for blaming Edelgard, because she has betrayed him, along with everyone else, by constantly lying and not telling them about who was truly behind it.

Really? Where did you get that idea by literally any means? 

Quote

Flame Emperor: There will be no salvation for you and your kind. Those responsible for such gruesome deeds in Duscur and Enbarr.
Thales: All so that you may acquire the strength you need. All for a purpose...
Dimitri: I've got you... Finally...
Choice 1: Wait.
Choice 2: Don't go out there.
Choice 3: Let's keep listening.
Dimitri: If we don't act now, we'll miss our chance!
Flame Emperor: (turning) Hmm...
(Blackout. Sword swipes)

Thales: Hmph. Even if someone has overhead us, there is nothing they can do. There have always been rats in the walls, and there always will be.

Based on this, clearly they didn't know that they were being eavesdropped until Dimitri tried to make a move. Like dude, you're literally trying way too hard here in trying to make excuses. This is not actually accepting Dimitri's faults despite your earlier claim.

Dimitri doesn't make any logical deduction. 

Especially considering the fact that Dimitri cannot put it through his head that Edelgard was freaking 13 at the time the Tragedy took place. But no, she is indeed responsible for the Tragedy.

26 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Unless you are in AM, and they attack you. As I said, no one will try to use this battle to show allegiances because it makes no sense.

Nope. 

Quote

Claude: So, you're actually alive, Teach! It's a shame you aren't on our side. Anyway, isn't the Empire your enemy? Us fighting seems like a waste...

Gameplay AI makes Claude attack you, but literally it's easy to tell that he's calling out how they shouldn't be enemies here at all and it's Byleth the one attacking him. In other words, you are the aggressor still storywise.

31 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Thanks for point that out, guess it is true that he is against the Empire. However, this still doesn't mean that he would have been able to attack them because of the split in views.

By splitting the views, Claude has managed to keep the Alliance together and preventing the Empire from creating any influence. All while making preparing for taking part in the war himself.

Quote

Hubert: Yes. The people of Derdriu have suddenly found it difficult to leave or enter the city. We can safely assume he is preparing for battle, but I am certain his plans extend beyond that as well. Do you not think we should take Derdriu at once?

When you consider how Claude had the Almyrans in, Claude was preparing to launch his own attack. 

Had Edelgard been foolish enough to ignore the Alliance entirely and focus strictly on the Kingdom and Church, Claude would have basically led the Alliance to take one side, and the Almyrans would take the other when the Empire and Kingdom's backs were turned. 

37 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

It is when you are trying to make something out of nothing, especially when the part you have quoted ("with a renewed focus on accepting students regardless of status") to try to push the free education part is exactly the same on all paths.

... No. Not at all. Dude. the free education part is strictly on the "practical subjects". Garreg Mach's Officer Academy is a MILITARY school, meant for the royals and nobility to learn the art of warfare. Remember, the Officers Academy was founded following the first Almyran invasion, to help train people to protect themselves from more invasions. 

But Crimson Flower explicitly now makes the Officers Academy now train people in more practical subjects.

Then we also know that Edelgard seeks to dismantle the nobility system. And Ferdinand suggests creating a free education system. Hubert's lecture question best answer is to educate the people of Fodlan. And finally, Manuela and Hanneman's CF ending states that Garreg Mach has started to teach more practical subjects.

Contrary to your claim, I'm not, in fact, making something out of nothing. I'm merely pointing out the literal dialogue that is done in the game, and how they literally all link up together.

Also, I honestly would not be going around pointing fingers about making something out of nothing, when you literally tried to make claims that Dimitri wanted equality and actually provided social mobility, when you really don't have any dialogue or evidence that supports this, given that I've shown you that his own dialogue proves that he actually does not promote equality and wanting Crests and nobility debunks any belief that he provides any actual social mobility. 

[Crysta]

1 minute ago, SigurdVII said:

Point by point.

- Edelgard does in fact rely on the Sword of the Creator. She's the one who refers to it as capable of routing either the Adrestian Empire or the Seiros Knights. While she is prepared to face Byleth if it comes to it, her situation grinds to a halt because Faerghus joins forces with the Seiros Knights to take her on. Byleth is explicitly considered the turning point by her and Claude in the Empire's situation. Not to mention several times when she says only Byleth will be able to take on the Church's true power.

Her desire for the Sword of Creator, and attempts to get it, are consistent in the other routes.

6 minutes ago, SigurdVII said:

- And the reason why Claude doesn't make the token effort is for the same reason Edelgard doesn't take off her mask outside her own route. They're not not close. Claude already knew Byleth for several months before he acquired the Sword of the Creator. Therefore it was easier for them to become closer to each other (point of fact, in the JP version Claude declares them siblings just before the TS). So it was easier for him to initially try to manipulate Byleth, but then become close to one another. But he doesn't see a way when Byleth rejected him in other routes.

Eh, Claude was closer but not super close to Byleth even when Byleth acquires the SoTC. He's far more forthcoming after Byleth gets it, because of his desire to use him. I don't think he would normally completely discount the opportunity to sway Byleth even if he wasn't his professor and he wasn't as confident about his chances, if he considered the Sword of the Creator/Byleth absolutely paramount to his plans. Those plans are pretty significant to him if he's willing to die for them.

16 minutes ago, SigurdVII said:

- You're forgetting that as far as Claude knows from the legends, the Sword of the Creator can split mountains. He has no other information otherwise. Just as Omega noted, he doesn't know that the Ten Elites worked for Nemesis rather than vice versa. He's like Edelgard in that as far as he knows, the legends of the Sword being badass are true. And even in the opening movie, we're not left with much reason to doubt that.

 

I'm not. I'm skeptical he 100% believes the legends, because he routinely questions everything - unlike Edelgard. He openly wonders how much of the Nemesis versus Seiros mythology is actually true because he is simultaneously intellectually curious but cautious.

[SigurdVII]

1 minute ago, Crysta said:

Her desire for the Sword of Creator, and attempts to get it, are consistent in the other routes.

Eh, Claude was closer but not super close to Byleth even when Byleth acquires the SoTC. He's far more forthcoming after Byleth gets it, because of his desire to use him. I don't think he would normally completely discount the opportunity to sway Byleth even if he wasn't his professor and he wasn't as confident about his chances, if he considered the Sword of the Creator/Byleth absolutely paramount to his plans. Those plans are pretty significant to him if he's willing to die for them.

I'm not. I'm skeptical he 100% believes the legends, because he routinely questions everything - unlike Edelgard. He openly wonders how much of the Nemesis versus Seiros mythology is actually true because he is simultaneously intellectually curious but cautious.

- It's more down to wanting Byleth's help rather than simply that of the Sword, but my point is that in CF Byleth's presence is the tailwind the Empire needed for the war to shift in their favor.

- He knows them well enough that he's willing to make the attempt to try to get close to them. They simply don't have that opportunity in other routes, again for the same reason that while Edelgard may love Byleth in other routes, they're not intimate with one another. Neither are Claude and Byleth outside Golden Deer, that's why he becomes more nakedly desperate in other routes to cling to what little power he has. 

- Being skeptical is great and all, but it doesn't change that the legends are all he has to work from. When he finds alternative information, he jumps on it. But up until then, the only thing he can scrutinize are the contradictions between the Church's canon and the reality as you noted. And seeing as he never has a reason to distrust the Sword of the Creator from watching Byleth in action, why wouldn't he covet its power?The only reason Edelgard even knows not to trust Seiros is because she has information no one outside the Church or the Agarthans do (that the Church is a sham, that Nemesis wasn't a fallen hero, and that the Ten Elites were slaughtered by Seiros.)

[Crysta]

Just now, SigurdVII said:

- It's more down to wanting Byleth's help rather than simply that of the Sword, but my point is that in CF Byleth's presence is the tailwind the Empire needed for the war to shift in their favor.

- He knows them well enough that he's willing to make the attempt to try to get close to them. They simply don't have that opportunity in other routes, again for the same reason that while Edelgard may love Byleth in other routes, they're not intimate with one another. Neither are Claude and Byleth outside Golden Deer, that's why he becomes more nakedly desperate in other routes to cling to what little power he has. 

- Being skeptical is great and all, but it doesn't change that the legends are all he has to work from. When he finds alternative information, he jumps on it. But up until then, the only thing he can scrutinize are the contradictions between the Church's canon and the reality as you noted. And seeing as he never has a reason to distrust the Sword of the Creator from watching Byleth in action, why wouldn't he covet its power?The only reason Edelgard even knows not to trust Seiros is because she has information no one outside the Church or the Agarthans do (that the Church is a sham, that Nemesis wasn't a fallen hero, and that the Ten Elites were slaughtered by Seiros.)

I'm not really debating that part, but again, you don't steamroll the opposition with the Sword in any route. All of the obstacles don't magically fall away under the might of the Sword of the Creator. It's a great tool for war, not a great tool for politicking.

He states that his goal is to find something, or someone, to assist him with his dreams... and he really doesn't need to declare his love for Byleth to at least be friends with him. Nor does Byleth even have to be a friend. He outright asks Edelgard of all people if she would help him if he was willing to become more forthcoming in a random library conversation and he knows she's secretive af. He doesn't need an explicit invitation or perpetual access to feel comfortable attempting to manipulate someone, or ask them for assistance.

He knows Nemesis lost and he's skeptical of the literature surrounding the Goddess and how the Church protrays her. It's something he seeks to test, but funnily enough, I think Byleth using it actually reveals he can't single-handedly change the landscape or wipe out armies with it. When Byleth is helping him with the war effort, he emphasizes the SoTC being a symbol of them being important, but relies much more heavily on Byleth's command and tactics when actually fighting.

And that may be why he doesn't think losing the Sword of the Creator spells the end for his ambitions.

 

 

 

 

 

[SigurdVII]

31 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm not really debating that part, but again, you don't steamroll the opposition with the Sword in any route. All of the obstacles don't magically fall away under the might of the Sword of the Creator. It's a great tool for war, not a great tool for politicking.

He states that his goal is to find something, or someone, to assist him with his dreams... and he really doesn't need to declare his love for Byleth to at least be friends with him. Nor does Byleth even have to be a friend. He outright asks Edelgard of all people if she would help him if he was willing to become more forthcoming in a random library conversation and he knows she's secretive af. He doesn't need an explicit invitation or perpetual access to feel comfortable attempting to manipulate someone, or ask them for assistance.

He knows Nemesis lost and he's skeptical of the literature surrounding the Goddess and how the Church protrays her. It's something he seeks to test, but funnily enough, I think Byleth using it actually reveals he can't single-handedly change the landscape or wipe out armies with it. When Byleth is helping him with the war effort, he emphasizes the SoTC being a symbol of them being important, but relies much more heavily on Byleth's command and tactics when actually fighting.

And that may be why he doesn't think losing the Sword of the Creator spells the end for his ambitions.

 

 

 

 

 

- Which again is down to gameplay mechanics rather than the reality. We see in the very first cutscene that the Sword of the Creator and the Ten Elites' Relics are capable of mass slaughter on their own. The Lance of Ruin alone is Faerghus's national defense program against Sreng. And again, Byleth and the Sword of the Creator are essential to Edelgard's victory in CF, she states this, Claude himself cites Sensei being alive as a big problem for him.

- He wasn't being serious. If you recall the context of the conversation, Edelgard comes to him, and he's more or less making an impossible demand to her (help me and maybe I'll tell you what you want to know). And again the reality is Byleth and Claude are not close in other routes, he may like Byleth, but that simply isn't the same as knowing them. Already having the closeness of being teacher and student is why Claude comes to rely on Byleth. Why Dimitri relies on Byleth. And why Edelgard and Byleth become closer in their respective routes. Without those bonds, Claude doesn't really reach out to him. And again, he changes his perception of Byleth because he views them as close as siblings pre-TS.

- He does, but he's also searching for the power of the Relics in general because of the anomalies surrounding them. You're severely underestimating their power based off of gameplay when the lore and the cutscenes are pretty clear that they're pretty damned powerful. Claude watches Byleth perform a literal miracle cutting his way out of the darkness. How is that not proof positive of its power? The only reason we don't see Byleth and the others use the Relics to the extent that Nemesis and the others did is because they're too powerful to be used without harming other people.

Look at the very first cutscene.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by SigurdVII

[MrPerson0]

59 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Guy admits to wanting to unite the continent. Please, by all means, tell me how uniting the continent can be handled peacefully. 

Are you going to say that he thought he would have to battle the Kingdom or something? Unless he knew that TWSitD or Edelgard were preparing for war, that's likely the initial option he would have had.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Especially considering the fact that Dimitri cannot put it through his head that Edelgard was freaking 13 at the time the Tragedy took place.

Back in medieval times, 13/14 was enough for children to marry, and, enough to allow them to kill/participate in war. I don't think it's farfetched to believe that Edelgard, at that age, could have committed such a thing, especially when, within a year or two or the tragedy, she started to build her army by recruiting the likes of Jeritza and whatnot.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Gameplay AI makes Claude attack you, but literally it's easy to tell that he's calling out how they shouldn't be enemies here at all and it's Byleth the one attacking him.

Which, is why I have been saying that battle doesn't make any sense. He says that whether you go to attack him or whether he goes to attack you.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

When you consider how Claude had the Almyrans in, Claude was preparing to launch his own attack. 

And now, you are referring to omniscient knowledge again. The part you quoted about Hubert even shows that he assumes it would be the case. Since they based it all on an assumption, and apparently not facts, it was still wrong of them to attack the Alliance.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Contrary to your claim, I'm not, in fact, making something out of nothing. I'm merely pointing out the literal dialogue that is done in the game, and how they literally all link up together.

And as I have said, "practical subjects" is way too broad of a term to know what they are talking about, especially since we know that they were teaching such things already (such as dancing, singing, etc.).

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Are you going to say that he thought he would have to battle the Kingdom or something? Unless he knew that TWSitD or Edelgard were preparing for war, that's likely the initial option he would have had.

Let's see now. Wanted the Sword of the Creator, a weapon of great destructive power that can wipe out entire armies... yes. He is someone that isn't dumb enough to not expect some kind of resistance since he's dealing with Fodlan's stupid racist view.

6 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Back in medieval times, 13/14 was enough for children to marry, and, enough to allow them to kill/participate in war. I don't think it's farfetched to believe that Edelgard, at that age, could have committed such a thing, especially when, within a year or two or the tragedy, she started to build her army by recruiting the likes of Jeritza and whatnot.

I'm sorry, you are legit reaching here already. He's literally saying that she's the mastermind. The one that planned and pulled everything. I dunno how you are gonna ignore Dimitri's rants, but Dimitri's logic is bad. 

You might love the guy, but accept it. His logic was dumb, he was idiotic in his detective skills due to his insanity, and he ended up ultimately jumping the gun.

This is fact.

You can try to make excuses as much as you want, but stop being so pushy about it to the point that you are just gonna make yourself look petty as a result.

8 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Which, is why I have been saying that battle doesn't make any sense. He says that whether you go to attack him or whether he goes to attack you.

Because lorewise, you are attacking him. 

8 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

And now, you are referring to omniscient knowledge again. The part you quoted about Hubert even shows that he assumes it would be the case. Since they based it all on an assumption, and apparently not facts, it was still wrong of them to attack the Alliance.

Dude. Hubert and Edelgard aren't idiots. They KNOW the kind of man Claude is. They know that he's got a scheme and know how to keep an eye on things. They are perceptive enough to anticipate how Claude is planning to move. 

And the result is... ding ding ding, they are indeed correct. Claude was definitely scheming and their hunch and observations were right.

This is war dude. Take a look at the art of war a little. Edelgard is actually very good at making strategic and smart moves.

11 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

And as I have said, "practical subjects" is way too broad of a term to know what they are talking about, especially since we know that they were teaching such things already (such as dancing, singing, etc.).

I love how hypocritical you are sounding right now and trying to nitpick this, but as I very much pointed out, you literally tried to preach about Dimitri's path. 

Dancing and singing, huh? Practical subjects being included at what was once a military school. Gee, wonder what it is? And this being in the route where nobility is abolished and there's been talk of an education system. 

Dude. There's reaching. And there is now just grasping at straws. 

At this point, I'm ready to declare that you are just in denial here and now. 

[Crysta]

31 minutes ago, SigurdVII said:

- Which again is down to gameplay mechanics rather than the reality. We see in the very first cutscene that the Sword of the Creator and the Ten Elites' Relics are capable of mass slaughter on their own. 

We also see it being easily deflected by Thales and it doing absolutely nothing to intimidate him when he blasts Byleth off a cliff. It's not just game mechanics. Against someone with knowledge of what they're up against, or someone who can get the jump on the wielder (not particularly hard, apparently), it's easily rendered useless.

Sensei is much more than his sword. Claude doesn't heavily rely on it when it's finally in his corner. Byleth is much more useful to him as a tactician and popular political figurehead, and the latter is clearly more important in securing the support of the Church of Seiros and herding the Alliance lords.

38 minutes ago, SigurdVII said:

And again the reality is Byleth and Claude are not close in other routes, he may like Byleth, but that simply isn't the same as knowing them. Already having the closeness of being teacher and student is why Claude comes to rely on Byleth. Why Dimitri relies on Byleth. And why Edelgard and Byleth become closer in their respective routes. Without those bonds, Claude doesn't really reach out to him. And again, he changes his perception of Byleth because he views them as close as siblings pre-TS.

I'm not sure he fully relies on Byleth even after the time skip. Making no attempt to get to know Byleth after he acquires the Sword of the Creator is... strange, if Byleth is truly the game changer Claude believes he is. He's charming and sociable, and the opportunity is there if he wants it. I don't think he wanted to take it, so he didn't.

And when he does take it? He still holds back. He wants Byleth to trust him as much as he would a sibling, but that doesn't mean it goes both ways. At no point does he fully fess up to being the Almyran crown prince, not even in the S-rank support where he actually downplays it. He doesn't really get into his motivations until his A-rank support. He eventually gives his allies and friends a general overview of what he intends to do when he's finally confronted about Nader, but even then he avoids Lorenz's pointed question by deflecting attention to Cyril, who is understandably annoyed by it. These are friends who are willing to die fighting for him.

58 minutes ago, SigurdVII said:

You're severely underestimating their power based off of gameplay when the lore and the cutscenes are pretty clear that they're pretty damned powerful.

Not once did I cite actual game play mechanics as to why the Sword of the Creator is unimpressive. The actual story doesn't support the mythology, which exaggerates its power as legends are wont to do.

Yes, Nemesis is shown wrecking legions of foes with it in the opening cutscene. That can actually be replicated in game by wrecking units with it at range. 

Is there any point in the story where Byleth is discouraged from using the Sword of the Creator because they fear he may cause too much collateral damage? Or is that the theory we're going with because Nemesis is clearly using it without regard for his own troops in the opening cutscene?

[Hardric62]

8 hours ago, MrPerson0 said:

Back in medieval times, 13/14 was enough for children to marry, and, enough to allow them to kill/participate in war. I don't think it's farfetched to believe that Edelgard, at that age, could have committed such a thing, especially when, within a year or two or the tragedy, she started to build her army by recruiting the likes of Jeritza and whatnot.

 

Except actually looking at medieval history beyond cliches or betrothal made before effective marriage shows that idea is an actual exageration. I suggest you search for the word 'regency' in a dictionnary. Plus another for 'coup' to see what sort of choices a 14 years old would have in an hostile court. Real Life usually waited to see the would-be ruler get close to 20 before they are declared apt to rule, with variations owing to the future ruler's ability, stability of the country, and how 'accomodating' whatever regency in place was. Heck, Dimitri is under a regency himself, and he is far older than 14, and can't get his own army to stop slaughtering people in Duscur in Dedue's paralogue. Why would Edelgard magically have more power than him at same age exactly?

[Silver-Haired Maiden]

I must say I agree with the others here. Because here's the thing, even if the war was inevitable (which it wasn't) and even if it did start due to the actions of someone else, there's a big difference between purposefully starting a war and accidentally starting a war. Edelgard very purposely started a war. Her views and bull-headedness means that she's always going to start a war and someone who is willing to burn a friend alive to trap her enemies, lie to her closest friends about their actual enemies, is never willing to change her approach despite how many people she hurts, and work with TWISTD despite the fact that they're the cause of, not only her pain, but hundreds of others including some that she's very close to like Byleth? (And those are only a few examples off the top of my head) Yeah, she's the villain and that's okay. She's the aggressor here in a way that Dimitri and Claude - by your own theories - wouldn't be.

Also try to refrain from
 

12 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm sorry, you are legit reaching here already.

You can try to make excuses as much as you want, but stop being so pushy about it to the point that you are just gonna make yourself look petty as a result.

I love how hypocritical you are sounding right now and trying to nitpick this, but as I very much pointed out, you literally tried to preach about Dimitri's path.  

Dude. There's reaching. And there is now just grasping at straws. 

At this point, I'm ready to declare that you are just in denial here and now. 

This. All it does is shut down your own arguments and cause the person talking to you to dig their heels in instead of actually discussing things with you.

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I must say I agree with the others here. Because here's the thing, even if the war was inevitable (which it wasn't) and even if it did start due to the actions of someone else, there's a big difference between purposefully starting a war and accidentally starting a war. Edelgard very purposely started a war. Her views and bull-headedness means that she's always going to start a war and someone who is willing to burn a friend alive to trap her enemies, lie to her closest friends about their actual enemies, is never willing to change her approach despite how many people she hurts, and work with TWISTD despite the fact that they're the cause of, not only her pain, but hundreds of others including some that she's very close to like Byleth? (And those are only a few examples off the top of my head) Yeah, she's the villain and that's okay. She's the aggressor here in a way that Dimitri and Claude - by your own theories - wouldn't be.

Edelgard did start the war on purpose. But are you able to even once present evidence that the war could have been averted by any means? Especially with the slithers around for that matter? We've legit seen 2 cases of attempts at peaceful reforms, only to be completely screwed over, in regards to the Insurrection and Tragedy of Duscur. 

Edelgard knew what she was doing and was well aware of how she was going to cost lives. 

Also, in regards to lying to her friends, she's only ever actually lied to them once. Hell, during Chapter 12, she outright admits that she's the Flame Emperor. So more often than not, it lie of omission, rather than an actual direct lie. 

Not to mention, knowing that the slithers are evil and how they are actually someone that will get away and can only be dealt with in the war, do you think that it's wise to actually cut ties with them and let them escape, never to be found and they will only wreck more havoc in the future? 

The term "villain" is extremely loose on her. This entire story is about how there are no absolutes in right and wrong with the characters. Everyone has a story behind them, a perspective that we are to see. The world was very much beyond messed up.

1 hour ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

This. All it does is shut down your own arguments and cause the person talking to you to dig their heels in instead of actually discussing things with you.

You aren't seem to be aware, but I've been having to repeat myself to someone that's outright has been trying to ignore direct evidence and dialogue on several occasions. If anyone made the concept of having a civil discussion pointless, it was the one that had ignored literally every argument I've made that had been backed with actual proof.

[daisy jane]

42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard did start the war on purpose. But are you able to even once present evidence that the war could have been averted by any means? Especially with the slithers around for that matter? We've legit seen 2 cases of attempts at peaceful reforms, only to be completely screwed over, in regards to the Insurrection and Tragedy of Duscur. 

Edelgard knew what she was doing and was well aware of how she was going to cost lives. 

Also, in regards to lying to her friends, she's only ever actually lied to them once. Hell, during Chapter 12, she outright admits that she's the Flame Emperor. So more often than not, it lie of omission, rather than an actual direct lie. 

Not to mention, knowing that the slithers are evil and how they are actually someone that will get away and can only be dealt with in the war, do you think that it's wise to actually cut ties with them and let them escape, never to be found and they will only wreck more havoc in the future? 

The term "villain" is extremely loose on her. This entire story is about how there are no absolutes in right and wrong with the characters. Everyone has a story behind them, a perspective that we are to see. The world was very much beyond messed up.

You aren't seem to be aware, but I've been having to repeat myself to someone that's outright has been trying to ignore direct evidence and dialogue on several occasions. If anyone made the concept of having a civil discussion pointless, it was the one that had ignored literally every argument I've made that had been backed with actual proof.

probably not. but the thing is as the game indicated the Slitherers created Edelgard for their purposes for taking down the church - something that she was very happy to do anyway (where i pointed out - wasn't just because to end Fodlan on dependence on crests and the church but to reclaim all that Adrestia had lost. Ferdinand points out i think it's Field of the Eagle and Lion chapter there are many people in the empire who want reunification. I truthfully can't remember if there's any other indication on the GD side/BL side that this is wanted by anyone in the Kingdom or Alliance - though there is the pro Empire faction, Cornelia + Achron & Lord Lorenz's father)

and i think that's always been my biggest issue. because if this was strictly about ending the Church's reign/dependent on crests, then Edelgard could have had support from both leaders in Fodlan and they all could have come together to end the Church's reign (I'll totally buy that if/when Dimitri found out about Flame Emperor it could have made it a bit more risky and there  is the fact that Edelgard willingly works those who were responsible for a horrendous tragedy to further her gains to what she wants to achieve: Adrestrian supremacy)  the fact that Edelgard's plan to assassinate both Dimitri and Claude lends more to the credence of easy occupation vs. "oh it's just to end the crest/church". 

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, daisy jane said:

probably not. but the thing is as the game indicated the Slitherers created Edelgard for their purposes for taking down the church - something that she was very happy to do anyway (where i pointed out - wasn't just because to end Fodlan on dependence on crests and the church but to reclaim all that Adrestia had lost. Ferdinand points out i think it's Field of the Eagle and Lion chapter there are many people in the empire who want reunification. I truthfully can't remember if there's any other indication on the GD side/BL side that this is wanted by anyone in the Kingdom or Alliance - though there is the pro Empire faction, Cornelia + Achron & Lord Lorenz's father)

and i think that's always been my biggest issue. because if this was strictly about ending the Church's reign/dependent on crests, then Edelgard could have had support from both leaders in Fodlan and they all could have come together to end the Church's reign (I'll totally buy that if/when Dimitri found out about Flame Emperor it could have made it a bit more risky and there  is the fact that Edelgard willingly works those who were responsible for a horrendous tragedy to further her gains to what she wants to achieve: Adrestrian supremacy)  the fact that Edelgard's plan to assassinate both Dimitri and Claude lends more to the credence of easy occupation vs. "oh it's just to end the crest/church". 

Actually, the unification of Fodlan was something that was likely going to happen as a result of declaring war against the Church of Seiros. If you declare war against the institute that holds influence across the continent, you really aren't going to be able to actually avoid coming into conflict with the Kingdom and Alliance. 

Let's consider the Kingdom. The Kingdom has held very strong friendly relations with the Church of Seiros for a long time since Loog gained independence for his nation thanks to the Church allowing him to. It's maintained 400 years of good relations since. The Church has also exuded much influence into the Kingdom during Part 1, even being very much involved with leading the investigation in regards to the Tragedy of Duscur, which they even used as a cover to mask their own political affairs. Not to mention, many nobles follow the Church of Seiros to maintain hold of their own power. 

Also, by Dimitri's own admission, the Crests aren't truly to blame. He believes that people should not stop putting stock into Crests, as without it, the "metaphorical blade would rust" and so on. Claude also doesn't even want to cooperate with Edelgard because he also wants to be the one to rule. He's always going against the Empire in every route. He only offers to work with Edelgard in Verdant Wind, but it's a case where he's mostly in the lead with Byleth. 

Not to mention, Edelgard's desire isn't even just to take out simply the Church or the Crests. She wants to completely dismantle the nobility system entirely, something that is not possible through simple reforms. The entire continent of Fodlan is entrenched in what is now just a corrupt nobility system, with horrible people like Count Gloucester, what was once House Bartels, Count Varley, House Kleiman, and countless other corrupt nobles that have the crest obsessed nature. You think simple peaceful reforms would actually stop the massive amount of corrupt nobles? Even if you get rid of one or two of them now, more is just going to replace. It's easier to just take them all out and make a new system to allow people of real skill and talent get the positions, people who can actually do their job.

Again, saying that Edelgard even truly had a choice in the matter of working with the slithers is very unlikely. The slithers are her abusers, and clearly look down on Edelgard. Case in point, when Solon and Edelgard fought, he made it clear that he would kill her for opposing her. And when Cornelia was killed, Arundel blew up Arianrhod to punish Edelgard, which was done BEFORE he even confronted her to hear her out. That's not the sign of an equal relationship. 

Finally, on your point regarding Edelgard wanted to assassinate Dimitri and Claude... there's quite a few evidence to suggest this is actually false.

1) Edelgard never once told Kostas that the Knights of Seiros were there protecting the students. The Knights of Seiros are always known to be an extremely powerful military force, which Edelgard always praises, even implying its mightier than the Imperial army. Plenty of quotes seem to also indicate this as well. How is a group of bandits going to match up against the Knights of Seiros? 

2) The only reason Claude, Dimitri, and Edelgard as well, got in trouble is strictly because of Claude. The moment that the bandits attacked, Claude ran off, and Dimitri gave chase because he thought Claude was being a decoy, and Edelgard followed cause she knew he was running away. Both of their actions overall caused the bandits to notice and chase after them. Thing is, Edelgard could have actually stayed behind. She had the Knights of Seiros protecting her, Claude and Dimitri didn't. Odds are, they were going to get killed, and she would be good. If anything, her joining with them is making things that much harder on her. 

3) Edelgard never once talks or even cares about Dimitri and Claude surviving and instead talks only about Byleth becoming a professor. She makes no attempts to kill Dimitri or Claude later on either, which would basically contradict her nature in wanting the two dead the entire time.

4) The attack by the bandits scare off the new professor that was to teach in Garreg Mach. Had Byleth not been there, it was indicated that the one to take over was going to be Jeritza, who is actually the Death Knight, Edelgard's subordinate. This makes sense as to why Jeritza is in Garreg Mach for seemingly no reason or purpose, and ultimately doesn't do anything there. 

Here's a reddit post that goes on to detail about the attack during the prologue. 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[boozebender]

On 11/22/2019 at 7:16 PM, omegaxis1 said:

The primary thing is that people that condemn Edelgard as a villain or an antagonist and see her nothing beyond that, they tend to see her as someone that is unjustifiable, or just hate the fact that she started the war in 3H and think that it was totally unnecessary. 

This is completely false. 

It's OK dude you've shown your unending love for Edelgard on Reddit already, please stop. She's a fictional character that happens to be very polarizing, everyone has their own opinion and you cannot force your opinion on people by going "N-no, you're wrong and here's the only one point why!". Also tell your good friend SigurdVII guy to keep his Japanese scripts to his own and don't over-analyzing to the point that your biases makes you blind from seeing other people's perspective.

I actually read this whole wasted thread and only see you ignore the most important point that

• Edelgard clearly knows what she was doing but proceeded to do it anyway.
• TWSitD is the star puppeteer of the Fodlan theater and any atrocious act can be traced back to them.

There are plenty of reasons to love and hate Edelgard, but you seem to push a very specific agenda of "Edelgard is a good girl she dindu nuffin wrong cuz she cute squeak and other people would do it anyway". Criminals who kill other people doesn't justify you killing anyone.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, boozebender said:

It's OK dude you've shown your unending love for Edelgard on Reddit already, please stop. She's a fictional character that happens to be very polarizing, everyone has their own opinion and you cannot force your opinion on people by going "N-no, you're wrong and here's the only one point why!". Also tell your good friend SigurdVII guy to keep his Japanese scripts to his own and don't over-analyzing to the point that your biases makes you blind from seeing other people's perspective.

I actually read this whole wasted thread and only see you ignore the most important point that

• Edelgard clearly knows what she was doing but proceeded to do it anyway.
• TWSitD is the star puppeteer of the Fodlan theater and any atrocious act can be traced back to them.

There are plenty of reasons to love and hate Edelgard, but you seem to push a very specific agenda of "Edelgard is a good girl she dindu nuffin wrong cuz she cute squeak and other people would do it anyway". Criminals who kill other people doesn't justify you killing anyone.

Funny how I don't recall saying that she did nothing wrong. 

[boozebender]

Yep, you've proven my point that anything that can shake your flimsy headcanon will be ignored and instead focus on the most incidental thing to help you produce some dopamine.

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Funny how I don't recall saying that she did nothing wrong. 

And psst, hey, I never say you said that.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, boozebender said:

Yep, you've proven my point that anything that can shake your flimsy headcanon will be ignored and instead focus on the most incidental thing to help you produce some dopamine.

And psst, hey, I never say you said that.

I would beg to differ. 

Quote

 "Edelgard is a good girl she dindu nuffin wrong cuz she cute squeak and other people would do it anyway".

Also, if you wanna go about talking about your two points, I already addressed them. 

27 minutes ago, boozebender said:

I actually read this whole wasted thread and only see you ignore the most important point that

• Edelgard clearly knows what she was doing but proceeded to do it anyway.
• TWSitD is the star puppeteer of the Fodlan theater and any atrocious act can be traced back to them.

To respond to your two points:

• Fodlan is being controlled by an incompetent dragon lady that has lied and fabricated history and a false religious doctrine which she enforces, kills literally anyone that would dare to oppose her, and speaks as if she is the word of god. There are corrupt nobles anywhere that got into power thanks to the Rhea creating a false religion about it that literally gave those with Crests divine right to rule, thus creating the Crest System, and therefore has created a very corrupt society. Basically its own religious texts and tenets ultimately spread a very xenophobic view of everything. And any effort that were needed to make peaceful reforms resulted in the Insurrection of the Seven and the Tragedy of Duscur.
• People always love to blame solely them for everything. First off, the Insurrection of the Seven is something that the slithers helped only at the end after taking Arundel's place, but before that, it was the corrupt nobility that resisted Emperor Ionius IX. The Tragedy of Duscur's regicide would never have been able to be performed if the slithers never had the aid of the corrupt nobles of Faerghus and Patricia. So you only have two heinous acts traced back to them. But did the slithers cause the actual genocide of Duscur? Nope, that was Faerghus being a bunch of racists that like to jump the gun. Did the slithers cause the Crest system? Nope, that was Rhea preaching that the Ten Elites were heroes and the Crests were blessings of the Goddess. And finally, how do you believe that in any route, you could have stopped the slithers or even have dealt a blow against the slithers to begin with, had Edelgard not begrudgingly agreed to work with them? They leave, go back to their base, and suddenly, you can never find them again, and they will cause havoc. Edelgard allowed you the chance to actually fight them. 

Edelgard isn't a good girl that did nothing wrong. She's a human being that made the choices that she felt was for the best, even though she knew that many people would die from her war, but the game itself proves that her war is the only reason things had even changed for the better.