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vanguard333

My Thoughts so far on Three Houses

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Interesting. As I said, I haven't gotten that far in part 2 (please put that stuff in spoilers next time). 

Thales believing Edelgard is beneath him is one reason I suggested the "he overplays his hand by trying to pre-emptively get rid of Byleth, or even just attempt to get rid of Byleth as revenge for Solon"; perhaps that one could work.

However, as for everything you mentioned about Edelgard realizing her dreams in the CF route: her dreams can't happen so long as TWSITD continue to exist. A world without the class division and obsession with crests can't happen so long as TWSITD continue their crest experiments and other twisted magic. In many ways, taking out TWSITD after defeating Rhea and Dimitri could be framed story-wise and thematically as getting rid of the last of the last obstacle: now that the old system's been uprooted, there's just one thing left to topple before the new system can be built.

It could even have Thales walk in and arrogantly clap as he gloats, "I knew you could do it, Edelgard. Just as I hoped, you brought about our salvation from those creatures. Now, there's just one thing left. You die." Thales then tries to kill Edelgard now that she's outlived her usefulness, but Byleth defends her. Thales angrily sneers at Byleth. "You... Kronya should have killed you rather than your father. Killing Edelgard will be nothing personal. But you... this will be for Solon." 

I know, this dialogue is terrible and doesn't really capture Thales' personality very well. 

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Sorry, I wasn't thinking about the spoilers. But thinking more, I guess this kind of exemplifies how Slither is the weakest part of the game's writing.

Spoiler

Everything they've done in the last 1000 years was for the purpose of getting revenge on Seiros for slaughtering them. But beyond that...what do they want? Even the crest experiments were just to make a weapon to use against Seiros. Once she's dead, what will they do?

I'm reminded of Megamind, wherein he finally achieves his dream of defeating Metro Man and conquering Metro City. He never once gave thought to want he would do after that, and within weeks, he's miserable. He's lost all sense of purpose. He has no idea what to do with himself.

With Slither, we as the audience don't know what they want. We get to know every other leader throughout each path. Edelgard wants people not to be ruled by whether or not they have crests. Dimitri wants to put to rest the souls of those who died at Duscur. Claude wants to open Fodlan's borders and end racism. Rhea wants to honor the memory of her people and bring her mother back to life, the one person she feels is fit to lead the world. Slither wants...what? What do they want outside of revenge? That the writers never gave (or probably even thought about) an answer to that question is a real shame.

 

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I think Those Who Slither would work better if

Spoiler

they were a kind of arrogant, amoral trans-humanists. They recognize the power of the Crests, and want to get them into their own people, with the ultimate goal that all Agarthans will have every crest in their bloodstream, thereby maximizing their potential. What they'll use that power for, is up to each of them to decide. But when they turned to horrid crest experimentation, Seiros banished them, forcing them to live underground. Now, they want revenge, on top of becoming as strong as they possibly can.

 

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I would really like to have a DLC or something where Edelgard is forced to face the lies she's been fed her whole life, with no options for stubbornly discounting it. It would be interesting seeing a character like her realize that everything she's based her ideology on was a huge lie and having to face the potential consequences of that. That's why I wanted CF to be longer.

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32 minutes ago, Silver-Haired Maiden said:

I would really like to have a DLC or something where Edelgard is forced to face the lies she's been fed her whole life, with no options for stubbornly discounting it. It would be interesting seeing a character like her realize that everything she's based her ideology on was a huge lie and having to face the potential consequences of that. That's why I wanted CF to be longer.

Even if that ended up happening (and isn't like she only knows lies, in fact most of her information are half truths and actual truths) I don't think Edelgard would just think everything was in vain, after all, the Church was fundamentally flawed, and unlike a human reign, it can't be simply challenged for an Intellectual Revolution.

What mostly she would learn, is that Rhea wasn't that different from her, and she'd understand how Rhea ended up in the position she was, but Edelgard would still believe she had wrong in the world after making the nobility (and crest based).

Her ideology isn't based around a lie, instead is a half truth. The Church did many of these things she talked about (Conquer all of Fodlan, spread a religion that is literally the only one around, create the crest system as a religion, gave legitimacy to the nobility, etc.), but of course, details are the difference.

Edited by Troykv

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On 12/1/2019 at 9:45 AM, Troykv said:

Even if that ended up happening (and isn't like she only knows lies, in fact most of her information are half truths and actual truths) I don't think Edelgard would just think everything was in vain, after all, the Church was fundamentally flawed, and unlike a human reign, it can't be simply challenged for an Intellectual Revolution.

What mostly she would learn, is that Rhea wasn't that different from her, and she'd understand how Rhea ended up in the position she was, but Edelgard would still believe she had wrong in the world after making the nobility (and crest based).

Her ideology isn't based around a lie, instead is a half truth. The Church did many of these things she talked about (Conquer all of Fodlan, spread a religion that is literally the only one around, create the crest system as a religion, gave legitimacy to the nobility, etc.), but of course, details are the difference.

There’s never more then one religion explained to exist in other countries iirc just multiple gods. If Nemesis actually became a king then she didn’t technically make half the nobles. The church didn’t conquer Fodlan Adresia did with Rheas help. The Slithers being orginally human or still being called that by war of heroes seems false to me. Feels like a translation error. There’s no evidence Rhea actually helped break up Adresia either.

Edited by Julian Solo

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42 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

There’s no evidence Rhea actually helped break up Adresia either.

That's at the very least speculation from Edelgard's part, which likely stems from the fact the church willingly supported Fhargus's independence - against the Empire's wishes no less - after the War of Eagle and Lion.

Edited by Moltz23

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Funny enough, regarding Jeralt's death, before the game released, I had actually jokingly predicted that Jeralt would be killed by a shapeshifting antagonist as a refence to Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood:

Quote
On 4/28/2019 at 11:35 AM, TheDreamReturns said:

Maybe Jerry will die fighting the TRUE villain before he can tell anyone who it is or something.

Maybe he'll unravel the conspiracy a quarter of the way into the story, but on his way to the monastery to only to be confronted by a monster with the power of shapeshifting thanks to the particular crest, and it gets the upper hand in the fight by assuming the shape of Byleth's mother. When Byleth finally finds the shapeshifting monster, they fly into a rage and fight the monster one-on-one, and are kept from killing it by the house leaders simply so that Byleth doesn't get consumed by revenge. 

 

Admittedly, I did get every other aspect of Jeralt's death incorrect, though I really, really hoped when I got to the chapter where you fight Kronya that that last sentence would be correct. Though that reminds me of another small issue I have with the story: We know Solon can teleport away. When Byleth escapes that void, Solon realizes that he's screwed... and he decides to go down fighting rather than teleport away? Bear in mind, this is after Thales pointed out to Kronya that they don't want anyone finding out the secret of their bodies. All Solon does by staying is leave behind two corpses for the church to study rather than one. 

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A rule of Fire Emblem plot is that (at least some of) the villains will be able to teleport, but how often or how far they can use this power will be ill-defined, and they will never be able to accomplish half as much with it as they should, including being able to escape from their story-determined final battle.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

A rule of Fire Emblem plot is that (at least some of) the villains will be able to teleport, but how often or how far they can use this power will be ill-defined, and they will never be able to accomplish half as much with it as they should, including being able to escape from their story-determined final battle.

I suppose. I'm just glad that Path of Radiance averted that: only the Black Knight had warp powder, he had to use it sparingly because it drains his strength every time he uses it, and his story-determined final battle is one that he actively wants to take part in and wouldn't just flee from, so it's not that he can't escape, but instead that he doesn't want to. One thing I especially liked about Radiant Dawn was the reveal that he survived because he let Ike win and then got away when Ike was busy escaping the crumbling fortress. 

I wasn't going into Three Houses expecting Path of Radiance-level of attention to detail, but part me always hopes it'll be the case whenever I get a new FE game. 

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5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

A rule of Fire Emblem plot is that (at least some of) the villains will be able to teleport, but how often or how far they can use this power will be ill-defined, and they will never be able to accomplish half as much with it as they should, including being able to escape from their story-determined final battle.

Tired: Boss can't warp, and they only have a conversation with the Lord when getting into combat.

Wired: Boss can warp, and uses it to taunt in the Lord's face before warping back to safety.

Inspired: Boss may or may not be able to warp, but can definitely project their voice as they taunt the main Lord, on turn 1, from across the map.

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Forgot how the meme went haha

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13 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I suppose. I'm just glad that Path of Radiance averted that: only the Black Knight had warp powder, he had to use it sparingly because it drains his strength every time he uses it, and his story-determined final battle is one that he actively wants to take part in and wouldn't just flee from, so it's not that he can't escape, but instead that he doesn't want to. One thing I especially liked about Radiant Dawn was the reveal that he survived because he let Ike win and then got away when Ike was busy escaping the crumbling fortress. 

I wasn't going into Three Houses expecting Path of Radiance-level of attention to detail, but part me always hopes it'll be the case whenever I get a new FE game. 

Yeah, agreed that the Tellius games do a pretty good job with this sort of thing. I think 3H has pretty excellent attention to detail in some places (a lot of its setting and character work), but there are a few places it falls back on unexamined regurgitation of Fire Emblem tropes, and this mainly occurs when it's something related to the slitherers.

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pretty much what i felt. even though i still think Silver moon is the true BE route since that gets a proper transition and movie scenes. crimson flower was short and really jarring to me and how edelgard relied on you so much.

Edited by DivineLion

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5 hours ago, DivineLion said:

pretty much what i felt. even though i still think Silver moon is the true BE route since that gets a proper transition and movie scenes. crimson flower was short and really jarring to me and how edelgard relied on you so much.

I'm only really at the first mission of part 2, but it seems to make sense to me. Claude's thrown the Alliance into disarray to keep Edelgard from taking it without military effort, and invasion would detract from the war effort against Fearghus, that's harbouring the church. From what I've seen/been told by the game's story at this point, harbouring the Church is basically forcing Dimitri to not just go on a rampage. Combine this with Edelgard's greater refusal to use TWSITD in Crimson Flower compared to other routes because of the professor, and it makes sense that she's been stuck in a stalemate. 

I probably would've liked to see the deck be further stacked against Edelgard in some way, such as if Rhea or Seteth (or really just someone who has Dimitri's ear) convinces him to conquer the Alliance in the name of saving it from Adrestia; giving Edelgard one strong opponent rather than two weak opponents. That, or have us at least fight TWSITD after the war's over. Hubert promised me I'd get justice for Jeralt… But I don't think it's unreasonable that Edelgard needs Byleth in the Crimson Flower route. 

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6 hours ago, DivineLion said:

pretty much what i felt. even though i still think Silver moon is the true BE route since that gets a proper transition and movie scenes. crimson flower was short and really jarring to me and how edelgard relied on you so much.

I honestly would be open to the idea SS was more "canon" than CF if it actually comitted to the many ideas it had and if another route didn't outright pick what the path already has but added more content over it and pulled it off 10x better (and while I'll give anyone that Edelgard's death makes more sense in SS, neither that one nor VW gives it a proper buildup compared to how Blue Lions sets up her demise).

From a thematic angle, both Silver Snow and Crimson Flower needed to exist because the game is all about Byleth providing support to their chosen lord and leading them to victory while the others struggle, don't accomplish anything and may even end up dead by the end. To make SS canon in my book and safely remove CF altogether, both Rhea and Edelgard would need to be rewritten to be unquestionably good and a irredemably evil respectively, otherwise it becomes very blatant this idea is never explored at it fullest, in particular because the game is all about multiple paths.

Lastly, from an interface and gameplay standpoint the game doesn't waste any time swapping the Black Eagles's emblem with the one used for the Crest of Flames in the save menu once you get to the timeskip, as if the game is telling you've ended up in a complete different campaign unrelated to your chosen lord. The fact both Blue Lions and Golden Deer get to keep their flag and the Black Eagles don't is a clear indication something is up.

Edited by Moltz23

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On 12/7/2019 at 12:14 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, agreed that the Tellius games do a pretty good job with this sort of thing. I think 3H has pretty excellent attention to detail in some places (a lot of its setting and character work), but there are a few places it falls back on unexamined regurgitation of Fire Emblem tropes, and this mainly occurs when it's something related to the slitherers.

Oh; I agree. Three Houses definitely has some great attention to detail in a number of places. But yeah; TWSITD have been a pretty weak part of the story from what I've seen so far in my playthrough. 

Honestly: a layered story involving political revolution, a masked anti-hero/anti-villain who's the child of an emperor, a school setting, a mysterious green-haired girl who bestows the protagonist certain powers, an interesting setting and characters, and a plot that gradually relies increasingly on plot contrivances and conveniences. Did anyone else get Code Geass flashbacks when playing Three Houses?

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3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh; I agree. Three Houses definitely has some great attention to detail in a number of places. But yeah; TWSITD have been a pretty weak part of the story from what I've seen so far in my playthrough. 

Honestly: a layered story involving political revolution, a masked anti-hero/anti-villain who's the child of an emperor, a school setting, a mysterious green-haired girl who bestows the protagonist certain powers, an interesting setting and characters, and a plot that gradually relies increasingly on plot contrivances and conveniences. Did anyone else get Code Geass flashbacks when playing Three Houses?

So is Suzaku Dimitri or Byleth in this scenario?

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I'm glad the honeymoon period with Three Houses is over and people are beginning to question some of the writing choices.

But it will be difficult to top the train wreck that was Code Geass.

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7 minutes ago, Crysta said:

I'm glad the honeymoon period with Three Houses is over and people are beginning to question some of the writing choices.

Isn't it ironic coming from a Three Houses fan. Not a bad thing though. 

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2 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Isn't it ironic coming from a Three Houses fan. Not a bad thing though. 

Well, criticism doesn't always come from dislike. My professor enjoys my writing, but he still highlights the weak points so I can improve next time. 

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52 minutes ago, Crysta said:

But it will be difficult to top the train wreck that was Code Geass.

Agreed. I first saw the show only a few months ago (I only started watching anime at the beginning of this year). 

Spoiler

The scene where Lelouch accidentally uses his geass on Euphemia has to be the worst scene of anything I have seen in 2019, and think about what a high bar that is! Daenerys torching King's Landing doesn't even come close!

 

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53 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Agreed. I first saw the show only a few months ago (I only started watching anime at the beginning of this year). 

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The scene where Lelouch accidentally uses his geass on Euphemia has to be the worst scene of anything I have seen in 2019, and think about what a high bar that is! Daenerys torching King's Landing doesn't even come close!

 

Is that even more contrived than the blood pact? 

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22 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Is that even more contrived than the blood pact? 

It's difficult to explain whitout spoiler but imo is the worse Diabolus ex Machina to ever plague fiction and the blood pact does not even come close.

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