Fire Emblem and it's cliches: Do you think FE's plots are 'standard' or 'cliche' or 'boring'?

[Acacia Sgt]

On the Elena and Mist thing, I'd comment that, considering Elena died when Mist was too young, it may seem like a curious coincidence that she too developed quite a balanced state of being. Considering both grew up in quite different environments, and Elena wasn't there to make a long-lasting influence on Mist. So that they seem to be the only non-Herons or related who could ever touch the medallion... it's quite the statistical occurrence if their connection as mother and daughter had nothing to do with it. Just my view on things.

[Hawkwing]

15 hours ago, Ottservia said:

If it were just Falchion, no it wouldn’t change anything but the royal sword does in fact at least prove his nobility and that’s really the main issue with it. In a story about proving the worth of the common man and that birthright doesn’t matter, it really is a bad idea to give your protagonist a weapon only he can wield simply because of his noble bloodline. As for Ike, I can’t speak too much for since I’ve only played 10 chapters of PoR. I don’t know if Ike’s nobility plays a big part in the narrative or not or if it compromises any of the game’s themes or ideas.

I think they were trying to imply that Alm may have been one of Lima's bastards that Mycen happened to adopt with that scene in Echoes. It would help explain why Alm wanted to drop the subject and why Clive was starting to have second thoughts about anointing Alm as leader of the deliverance, especially since it was originally a morale-boosting stunt that relied on Alm being Mycen's grandson. Given how that's not the common interpretation, I think it's safe to say in that regard it mostly failed, and another case of the game going overboard with its foreshadowing.

In the original game, the regal sword was just a weapon that only Alm could wield, without any reason beyond giving the main character a good personal weapon. The game does mention that it was a gift from Rigel a long time ago, that it was stolen by Desaix, and that no normal person can use it, but that's it. Celica didn't even get a personal weapon or spell, although Ragnarok and the Holy Sword came close. 

3 hours ago, Ottservia said:

honestly if you simply change the requirements of the royal sword from “must have royal blood” to “must be pure of heart” or something like that then all of my problems regarding this aspect of the narrative are fixed(there are other way worse aspects of the narrative trust me on that). Because that not only fixes the thematic contractions, it also adds more depth to the other major standing theme of the story which it also completely fails to deliver on.

I do agree that using "a sword that chooses its wielder" would have been a less problematic set-up, if still cliche and opening a different can of worms. It also would have made Celica and Conrads inability to wield the royal sword less glaring, although I understand the gameplay reasons behind. Unlike the easter egg with the Aum staff, where any princess can wield it even if it requires reclassing first, the royal sword is accessible in the middle of the game rather than the end, so trading shenanigans could result in Celica having two personal weapons ahead of schedule. Then there's the business with how the skills would be handled, especially with the existence of ultimate skills, and I imagine IS took the simple solution of locking it to Alm to avoid any headache.

That said, in-universe, the royal sword was a gift from Rigel as a sign of the two nations friendships. Duma linked Valentias Falchion to the Rigel bloodline, and Marth's Falchion could only be used by decedents of Arni (and according to the Valentian accordion, the Ragnarok spell is limited to decedents of Zofia), so it is established that this kind of magic or blacksmithing exists in the world of Archanea. Limiting it to the royal family would also help ensure goodwill among the people who would be making most of the political decisions between the two countries. Meanwhile, having a condition that allows anyone of any status to wield it just because they fulfill the requirement is just asking for some stuck-up noble to be pissed that they can't wield a special sword but some commoner or bandit can just because they're "braver" or "stronger" or what-not, and the repercussions could lead to people viewing the gift as less of a sign of goodwill and more as a cleverly disguised prank/insult, regardless of the original intent. Similarly, a member of the royal family not being able to use a weapon where "only the pure of heart may wield" is the requirement could have some very nasty consequences depending on how others interpret it. Thus, while making the royal sword usable by royals only does hurt the games theme and isn't free from potential scandal (such as the interpretations of a commoner wielding it), from a practical standpoint, it prevents the gift from being misinterpreted as an insult since some random joe can't wield it just because they have a specific virtue that a noble doesn't, and it can only backfire if the wielder uses it for evil purposes, instead of people reacting to the implications of someone being able or unable to use a weapon that only the "pure" or "just" or "strong" can wield.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

In Echoes defense, most of the awkward writing in that regard is an attempt to cover a massive plot hole in the original. Namely why didn't Rudolf just kill Duma himself.

A king killing their nations patron god on the grounds that they went mad, when only a handful of people knew that was the actual case, is asking for a massive rebellion to happen. Even though the religion itself has more or less degraded into a cult by the time the game starts, that didn't prevent the kingdom of Rigel from becoming warlike and twisting Duma's "hardship builds character" message into "strength above all", so a significant amount of the population would still rise up to defend Duma even if their piety waned. Building off that, it would be difficult to find people who would willingly stand up against Duma without reservations, even after learning that he had gone mad, so Rudolf would have few allies if he decided to face the Duma Faithful head on. It would also be wise for the information that Duma is insane not to become public knowledge, which both Rudolf and Jedah do keep hidden. After all, half of Zofia became a criminal empire and the other half saw the entire royal family be nearly eradicated after Grieth and Desaix respectively realized that Mila was too lazy to leave her temple and deal with some very significant issues happening in her country. If Duma being crazy became common knowledge, it would have some very significant consequences that would likely do more damage than good to Valentia. 

There's also the fact that Rudolf aimed to unite the continent of Valentia and combine the teachings of Mila and Duma, as both kingdoms had corrupted their gods messages and followed them to their detriment. A total war were the victor would have to completely conquer the other nation would require either nation to learn the others strengths; Zofia would need discipline and strength to topple the mighty Rigelian empire, while Rigel would have to learn gentleness if they wished to keep a conquered Zofia from rebelling. Alm was a riskier but far more rewarding gamble to ultimately get rid of Duma, but even if Alm died, that wouldn't affect what the total war would accomplish. Rudolf could even still attempt to kill Duma himself after the war ended if Alm fell, although how successful he would have been is up in the air. Even if Rudolf died, it would likely be as the war was coming to a close, so his end goal would still stand; either the continent would be united as a new kingdom with the virtues of both Zofia and Rigel, or it would be torn apart and fall back into disarray if the conquers failed to change.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

If it were irrelevant it wouldn't be there. The difference is Ike rejects nobility while Alm embraces it, not only the nobility they both posses by birthright, but the nobility they earned through their actions.

 

Are you basing this off of some interview or developer discussion? Do you have a link? The only interview I have seen that mention Ike in such terms is careful to qualify this as unique to the games that have come out in the west, which would excluded Gaiden from their consideration, but my research about what was said by the people who made Path of Radiance was not exhaustive, and I could have missed something. Alm and Ike share so many characteristics that it is hard not to see Ike as an attempt to have a character like Alm that doesn't come off as incredibly hypocritical in the ending as @Ottservia has been pointing out.

Even if there are developer interviews saying something to that effect, it could just be for sensationalism to promote Ike back in the day rather than collective amnesia about Gaiden (though given how minimalist a game that is, that's not impossible at all). Ike and Alm both get the Hero class though, I think that's an intended reference in Radiant Dawn. There's a lot they could have called his basic class.

2 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I think they were trying to imply that Alm may have been one of Lima's bastards that Mycen happened to adopt with that scene in Echoes. It would help explain why Alm wanted to drop the subject and why Clive was starting to have second thoughts about anointing Alm as leader of the deliverance, especially since it was originally a morale-boosting stunt that relied on Alm being Mycen's grandson. Given how that's not the common interpretation, I think it's safe to say in that regard it mostly failed, and another case of the game going overboard with its foreshadowing.

In the original game, the regal sword was just a weapon that only Alm could wield, without any reason beyond giving the main character a good personal weapon. The game does mention that it was a gift from Rigel a long time ago, that it was stolen by Desaix, and that no normal person can use it, but that's it. Celica didn't even get a personal weapon or spell, although Ragnarok and the Holy Sword came close. 

I do agree that using "a sword that chooses its wielder" would have been a less problematic set-up, if still cliche and opening a different can of worms. It also would have made Celica and Conrads inability to wield the royal sword less glaring, although I understand the gameplay reasons behind. Unlike the easter egg with the Aum staff, where any princess can wield it even if it requires reclassing first, the royal sword is accessible in the middle of the game rather than the end, so trading shenanigans could result in Celica having two personal weapons ahead of schedule. Then there's the business with how the skills would be handled, especially with the existence of ultimate skills, and I imagine IS took the simple solution of locking it to Alm to avoid any headache.

That said, in-universe, the royal sword was a gift from Rigel as a sign of the two nations friendships. Duma linked Valentias Falchion to the Rigel bloodline, and Marth's Falchion could only be used by decedents of Arni (and according to the Valentian accordion, the Ragnarok spell is limited to decedents of Zofia), so it is established that this kind of magic or blacksmithing exists in the world of Archanea. Limiting it to the royal family would also help ensure goodwill among the people who would be making most of the political decisions between the two countries. Meanwhile, having a condition that allows anyone of any status to wield it just because they fulfill the requirement is just asking for some stuck-up noble to be pissed that they can't wield a special sword but some commoner or bandit can just because they're "braver" or "stronger" or what-not, and the repercussions could lead to people viewing the gift as less of a sign of goodwill and more as a cleverly disguised prank/insult, regardless of the original intent. Similarly, a member of the royal family not being able to use a weapon where "only the pure of heart may wield" is the requirement could have some very nasty consequences depending on how others interpret it. Thus, while making the royal sword usable by royals only does hurt the games theme and isn't free from potential scandal (such as the interpretations of a commoner wielding it), from a practical standpoint, it prevents the gift from being misinterpreted as an insult since some random joe can't wield it just because they have a specific virtue that a noble doesn't, and it can only backfire if the wielder uses it for evil purposes, instead of people reacting to the implications of someone being able or unable to use a weapon that only the "pure" or "just" or "strong" can wield.

A king killing their nations patron god on the grounds that they went mad, when only a handful of people knew that was the actual case, is asking for a massive rebellion to happen. Even though the religion itself has more or less degraded into a cult by the time the game starts, that didn't prevent the kingdom of Rigel from becoming warlike and twisting Duma's "hardship builds character" message into "strength above all", so a significant amount of the population would still rise up to defend Duma even if their piety waned. Building off that, it would be difficult to find people who would willingly stand up against Duma without reservations, even after learning that he had gone mad, so Rudolf would have few allies if he decided to face the Duma Faithful head on. It would also be wise for the information that Duma is insane not to become public knowledge, which both Rudolf and Jedah do keep hidden. After all, half of Zofia became a criminal empire and the other half saw the entire royal family be nearly eradicated after Grieth and Desaix respectively realized that Mila was too lazy to leave her temple and deal with some very significant issues happening in her country. If Duma being crazy became common knowledge, it would have some very significant consequences that would likely do more damage than good to Valentia. 

There's also the fact that Rudolf aimed to unite the continent of Valentia and combine the teachings of Mila and Duma, as both kingdoms had corrupted their gods messages and followed them to their detriment. A total war were the victor would have to completely conquer the other nation would require either nation to learn the others strengths; Zofia would need discipline and strength to topple the mighty Rigelian empire, while Rigel would have to learn gentleness if they wished to keep a conquered Zofia from rebelling. Alm was a riskier but far more rewarding gamble to ultimately get rid of Duma, but even if Alm died, that wouldn't affect what the total war would accomplish. Rudolf could even still attempt to kill Duma himself after the war ended if Alm fell, although how successful he would have been is up in the air. Even if Rudolf died, it would likely be as the war was coming to a close, so his end goal would still stand; either the continent would be united as a new kingdom with the virtues of both Zofia and Rigel, or it would be torn apart and fall back into disarray if the conquers failed to change.

I don't know. A civil war between the Rudolf loyal and the Duma faithful sounds like it'd be a hell of a lot less destructive than full scale war between Rigel and Zofia. That's even assuming there would be a war, considering Rudolf before he is killed can literally walk into Duma's lair just (and I really mean like identically here) as easy as Alm can.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jotari

[Jotari]

Whoops. Posting on mobile led to a double post mistake. Ignore this.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

On 11/28/2019 at 8:10 AM, henrymidfields said:

One of the more noticable cliches that I noticed was how the majority of the plots are Main Lord/protagonist-centric in morality, agency, and success rate. I remember only once which this was flipped over in morality and success rate, which was Sigurd from FE4 who really screwed things up for everyone.

I'm not really sure Sigurd really carries much blame. All he did wrong was getting betrayed and murdered. 

Sure, Granvele is a lot more shady than most lord countries and the nations Sigurd conquered would later be incorporated in an oppressive empire. However Granvele's flaws are mitigated by everyone of Sigurd's enemies being so cartoonishly evil that Sigurd's intervention is justified. Its hard to fault Sigurd for invading Augustria when Chagaal declares wars first and also tries killing Sigurd's friends and his little sister just because he finds it funny. Verdane too invaded first and were keeping an important Granvelle noble prisoner. The fact that those conquered nations would be part of an oppressive empire is a problem solely caused by Sigurd getting betrayed and murdered rather than him being short sighted.  

[Hawkwing]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I don't know. A civil war between the Rudolf loyal and the Duma faithful sounds like it'd be a hell of a lot less destructive than full scale war between Rigel and Zofia. That's even assuming there would be a war, considering Rudolf before he is killed can literally walk into Duma's lair just (and I really mean like identically here) as easy as Alm can.

A. Rudolf waltzing into Duma tower wielding Falchion would raise suspicion with the Duma Faithful soldiers stationed within, and they would not hesitate to strike down their king if he attempted to kill Duma. Even if Rudolf succeeded at shoving Falchion into Duma's skull, it is unlikely that he would be able to get back out alive, and even if he did, he would then have to face the general population who would not take kindly to their king killing their patron deity. While Rudolf accepted that he would likely die in the Zofia-Rigel war, it would be as the final obstacle, when he knew that his plans for uniting the continent were coming to fruition. Entering a potential suicide mission against Duma would likely result in his death even before killing the crazed dragon, and even if he succeed in that regard, there would be several predictable and unpredictable consequences which could make the situation even worse.

Taking Duma out of the picture wouldn't automatically stop Rigel from following a twisted version of Dumas "hardship builds character" message. If anything, the Duma Faithful might interpret the attack as a sign that the royal bloodline of Rigel was no longer worthy of carrying Dumas cause, and attempt to seize even more power, making the whole situation even worse. Rigel is also a land that doesn't have plentiful resources, and in fact was suffering from a famine years before the game started. Depending on its scale, a civil war would result in several long term consequences and losses even after the conflict is resolved. While Zofia would be unlikely to invade their wounded neighbor, the could add several caveats to any aid they provide, stirring yet even more conflict later on (Lima the IV didn't keep his end of the bargain, after all).

TL;DR Rudolf attacking Duma head on would have several consequences regardless of the battles outcome, and would likely result in the problems Rudolf was attempting to resolve getting even worse.

B. Rudolf's plan to unite the continent and shake both nation's out of following their gods teachings to their detriment could be done even without taking Mila and Duma out of the picture. There would be a lot more resistance, sure, but Alm and Celica fight rebellions even after the continent is United, so that is an unavoidable factor. Alm doesn't even need to survive the war for this part of the plan to succeed. Rigel could conquer Zofia and unite the continent, and if they wanted to stay united and keep Zofia from rebelling, they would need to learn and apply their neighbors virtues. Likewise, Zofia would need discipline and strength to win the war. Neither of these scenarios require Alm's participation.

Sure, there would still be two dragons who are probably pissed off over the Divine Accord being broken, but one's crazy and the other lazy. If they attempted to forcibly other renew the previous status quo, other nations would notice, and Valentia isn't the only continent with a god-slaying weapon. And who knows? The one kingdom of Valentia might even get Duma and Mila's blessing.

 

With all that said, it would make for some interesting alternative universe material if Rudolf did fight Duma himself and Alm never participating in the war. Makes me wish Shadows of Valentia got more DLC.

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

A. Rudolf waltzing into Duma tower wielding Falchion would raise suspicion with the Duma Faithful soldiers stationed within, and they would not hesitate to strike down their king if he attempted to kill Duma. Even if Rudolf succeeded at shoving Falchion into Duma's skull, it is unlikely that he would be able to get back out alive, and even if he did, he would then have to face the general population who would not take kindly to their king killing their patron deity. While Rudolf accepted that he would likely die in the Zofia-Rigel war, it would be as the final obstacle, when he knew that his plans for uniting the continent were coming to fruition. Entering a potential suicide mission against Duma would likely result in his death even before killing the crazed dragon, and even if he succeed in that regard, there would be several predictable and unpredictable consequences which could make the situation even worse.

The Duma faithful tried to do exactly that to Alm,  which he handled. The only way this works is if Rudolf is significantly weaker than Alm, which I doubt would be the case if we're looking at a no war scenario (not only would Rudolf have more troops alive, but Alm surely lost a significant amount of his canon forces in taking Rigel in the first place). And the people of Rigel are surely going to be no more accepting of Alm killing their patron deity than Rudolf doing so. All the difficulties of killing Duma and all the consequences of actually doing so apply to both Alm and Rudolf equally in the original Gaiden.

15 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

B. Rudolf's plan to unite the continent and shake both nation's out of following their gods teachings to their detriment could be done even without taking Mila and Duma out of the picture. There would be a lot more resistance, sure, but Alm and Celica fight rebellions even after the continent is United, so that is an unavoidable factor. Alm doesn't even need to survive the war for this part of the plan to succeed. Rigel could conquer Zofia and unite the continent, and if they wanted to stay united and keep Zofia from rebelling, they would need to learn and apply their neighbors virtues. Likewise, Zofia would need discipline and strength to win the war. Neither of these scenarios require Alm's participation.

Thing is, Rudolf could do all of this himself instead of Alm and just not die in the process. And Rudolf evidentlly did want to Duma to be killed. It's literally his last words.

15 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

With all that said, it would make for some interesting alternative universe material if Rudolf did fight Duma himself and Alm never participating in the war. Makes me wish Shadows of Valentia got more DLC.

I would have settled for a DLC campaign featuring the canon confrontation of Rudolf versus Mila (with your army being made up of all the various bosses in the game). That would have been epic, and would have canonized Mila's dragon form beyond an artbook.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ike and Alm both get the Hero class though, I think that's an intended reference in Radiant Dawn. There's a lot they could have called his basic class.

Greil was a Hero in PoR. Ike is also a mercenary, what does the proper Mercenary class promote to usually?

 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I suspect Mist was originally designed to have a much more crucial role in that regard but her story was altered and moved to Micaiah when they decided they'd need to release the intended story as two games.

Or maybe it is a holdover from Beta PoR having Elena be the adopted daughter of Duke Persis? Maybe.

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Greil was a Hero in PoR. Ike is also a mercenary, what does the proper Mercenary class promote to usually?

 

Something that wields axes. Ike's class was also a Ranger in Path of Radiance, not a mercenary. Not sure why they didn't actually make him a mercenary to be honest, considering there's no actual mercenaries in the game and he wields the mercenary weapon, and the Ranger class already existed as a cavalry unit in three previous games. Having his base class be Mercenary and promoting to Hero in Radiant Dawn also would have worked very neatly with established classes in the series, though that probably would have made him feel less special in Radiant Dawn (which honestly wouldn't actually bother me all that much, he did suck a lot of attention away from Micaiah). Alm's base class is also Fighter, the name reserved for Axe units in the series. So having their personal classes sharing names with already established classes they don't resemble is another similarity you can chalk up between them (albeit it's probably unintentional).

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Ike's class was also a Ranger in Path of Radiance, not a mercenary. Not sure why they didn't actually make him a mercenary to be honest, considering there's no actual mercenaries in the game and he wields the mercenary weapon

I'm going to say it's because there is so much emphasis on the Greil Mercenaries. That is the one explanation I can think of, they didn't want to use the class, because you have this group with the class name in its title. Why aren't all the mercenaries of Greil in the mercenary class?

Now, I don't see this problem with any other class, we have plenty of "Knights" groups throughout FE, and despite having a knight class there is no mixup.

 

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

and the Ranger class already existed as a cavalry unit in three previous games.

Only SS, remember, it's Nomad Trooper in Elibe.

And from what I read, Ranger in SS is called Forrest Knight in Japan, the same as Beowolf's promoted class in FE4. FE9 Ranger had a brand new class name in Japan.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[vanguard333]

10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

If it were irrelevant it wouldn't be there. The difference is Ike rejects nobility while Alm embraces it, not only the nobility they both posses by birthright, but the nobility they earned through their actions.

Ike possesses no nobility by birthright; his mother was just a priestess, and even though Greil used to be General Gawain, "That was my name, once, but I threw it away." Greil is a common mercenary and an outlaw, and has been since before Ike was born. Ike can't claim anything. He wouldn't want to, but even if he did, he couldn't. 

The only nobility Ike has is given to him when he's given command of the Crimean Liberation Army, and that was solely because Begnion does not allow its soldiers, even its soldiers on-loan to someone else, to be led by a commoner. And as you said, he gives it up at the end of the game now that he no longer needs it. 

 

10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Are you basing this off of some interview or developer discussion? Do you have a link? The only interview I have seen that mention Ike in such terms is careful to qualify this as unique to the games that have come out in the west, which would excluded Gaiden from their consideration, but my research about what was said by the people who made Path of Radiance was not exhaustive, and I could have missed something. Alm and Ike share so many characteristics that it is hard not to see Ike as an attempt to have a character like Alm that doesn't come off as incredibly hypocritical in the ending as @Ottservia has been pointing out.

My research was a few years back, not exhaustive, and all the links I can find now redirect to sites written in Japanese. Sorry. 

I guess Gaiden (or at least what translations of the script I was able to read) didn't come across as hypocritical to me because there was no Berkut or Ferdinand repeatedly calling Alm a commoner, and no mention that I could find of Mycen having been disgraced or anything like that. So, it didn't come across to me as the story of a commoner; it came across to me as a King Arthur story: the son and heir of a king, raised as the son of a knight (Arthur was the son of King Uther Pendragon, but he was raised to believe he was the son of Sir Ector until the truth was revealed to him. Only Ector and Merlin knew the truth of Arthur's heritage), and no one would call King Arthur's story the story of a commoner. 

When I played Echoes and people like Ferdinand and Berkut kept referring to Alm as a farm boy and a commoner, I was confused, as Alm is supposedly Mycen's grandson. It wasn't until I saw Desaix's memory scene and talked to some random NPCs that I found out about Mycen being kicked out of the king's court and disgraced. Even then, I was thinking, "Does that really make him no longer a knight? He isn't wanted, he isn't living under an alias, have his titles even been revoked?" Also, the game kept undercutting the idea of Alm being a commoner by having everyone talk about how special he is; how there's something about him that makes every girl want him and every guy want to be him. That something is called Alm being a Gary Stu, but it still undercuts the idea of Alm being a relatable commoner hero. Plus, the game does very little other than people calling Alm a commoner to actually frame him as a commoner: the villagers don't treat him like one of them; they treat him as the grandson of a knight. He carries a sword only royalty can use. He has the magic birthmark. People treat him like he's special. etc. 

By contrast, in the few cases where Ike is regarded as anything special, the people are specifically referring to his sword skills or his charisma. For a quick example, compare and contrast these two lines:

Tobin: Alm, I’m gonna level with you… I’ve always hated how you were better than me at everything. Gray told me I should stop trying to compete with you, but damn it… I just couldn’t see how we were in such different places. But I understand it now. You’re meant to lead, and you have the strength and ability to back it up. My job isn’t to be better than you— it’s to be part of your strength. I’m not going to say I like it…but I can definitely accept it. So I just want you to know that I’ll always be there for you.

Ashnard Hah! They plan to cut across Daein? With nothing more than a single regiment at whose core is a tattered band of ragtag mercenaries? Gawain's son leads this rabble, yes? How does he stand up to his father's legacy? (referring to Greil's swordsmanship based on the context)

Black Knight He doesn't. He's just a boy, not yet worthy of his father's name.

Ashnard Hmph. Disappointing.

Black Knight Though his skill with the blade is rough, there is something...uncanny about him. People seem drawn to him. And not just Begnion's apostle, either. He's also gained the trust of the Serenes survivors...and of King Phoenicis as well.

So... yeah; I never saw Alm's story as a commoner story, but an almost-Arthurian hidden royalty story. So, I found Echoes jarring, and the idea of Alm and Ike having the same archetype completely confusing. Everything about Alm as a commoner in Echoes, I attributed to the writers seeming to have conflicting ideas on how they wanted to update Gaiden. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'm going to say it's because there is so much emphasis on the Greil Mercenaries. That is the one explanation I can think of, they didn't want to use the class, because you have this group with the class name in its title. Why aren't all the mercenaries of Greil in the mercenary class?

Now, I don't see this problem with any other class, we have plenty of "Knights" groups throughout FE, and despite having a knight class there is no mixup.

 

Only SS, remember, it's Nomad Trooper in Elibe.

And from what I read, Ranger in SS is called Forrest Knight in Japan, the same as Beowolf's promoted class in FE4. FE9 Ranger had a brand new class name in Japan.

Rangers appear in Genealogy of the Holy War and Thracia 776. Or at least that's what the Fire Emblem wikia calls what we commonly refer to as Forest Knights in the translation. Not sure why they'd do that unless there was some concrete reason to as Forest Knights don't use bows while Sacred Stones rangers do.

EDIT: Ah.  I didn't see your bottom line. If Ike's name does have a different Japanese name to the previous established ranger class then that explains it. Though it's a poor job on the translators imo. I'm sure they could have come up with something similar that's appropriate.

EDIT: EDIT: Although looking at Ike's classes Japanes name, it's literally just called Ranger in English, so I guess they were kind of stuck once they'd already made the decision to localize Forrest Knight as Ranger (so now I guess I shift the blame to the makers of Jugdral for having such a silly class name as Forest Knight).

35 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Ike possesses no nobility by birthright; his mother was just a priestess, and even though Greil used to be General Gawain, "That was my name, once, but I threw it away." Greil is a common mercenary and an outlaw, and has been since before Ike was born. Ike can't claim anything. He wouldn't want to, but even if he did, he couldn't. 

The only nobility Ike has is given to him when he's given command of the Crimean Liberation Army, and that was solely because Begnion does not allow its soldiers, even its soldiers on-loan to someone else, to be led by a commoner. And as you said, he gives it up at the end of the game now that he no longer needs it. 

 

My research was a few years back, not exhaustive, and all the links I can find now redirect to sites written in Japanese. Sorry. 

I guess Gaiden (or at least what translations of the script I was able to read) didn't come across as hypocritical to me because there was no Berkut or Ferdinand repeatedly calling Alm a commoner, and no mention that I could find of Mycen having been disgraced or anything like that. So, it didn't come across to me as the story of a commoner; it came across to me as a King Arthur story: the son and heir of a king, raised as the son of a knight (Arthur was the son of King Uther Pendragon, but he was raised to believe he was the son of Sir Ector until the truth was revealed to him. Only Ector and Merlin knew the truth of Arthur's heritage), and no one would call King Arthur's story the story of a commoner. 

When I played Echoes and people like Ferdinand and Berkut kept referring to Alm as a farm boy and a commoner, I was confused, as Alm is supposedly Mycen's grandson. It wasn't until I saw Desaix's memory scene and talked to some random NPCs that I found out about Mycen being kicked out of the king's court and disgraced. Even then, I was thinking, "Does that really make him no longer a knight? He isn't wanted, he isn't living under an alias, have his titles even been revoked?" Also, the game kept undercutting the idea of Alm being a commoner by having everyone talk about how special he is; how there's something about him that makes every girl want him and every guy want to be him. That something is called Alm being a Gary Stu, but it still undercuts the idea of Alm being a relatable commoner hero. Plus, the game does very little other than people calling Alm a commoner to actually frame him as a commoner: the villagers don't treat him like one of them; they treat him as the grandson of a knight. He carries a sword only royalty can use. He has the magic birthmark. People treat him like he's special. etc. 

By contrast, in the few cases where Ike is regarded as anything special, the people are specifically referring to his sword skills or his charisma. For a quick example, compare and contrast these two lines:

Tobin: Alm, I’m gonna level with you… I’ve always hated how you were better than me at everything. Gray told me I should stop trying to compete with you, but damn it… I just couldn’t see how we were in such different places. But I understand it now. You’re meant to lead, and you have the strength and ability to back it up. My job isn’t to be better than you— it’s to be part of your strength. I’m not going to say I like it…but I can definitely accept it. So I just want you to know that I’ll always be there for you.

Ashnard Hah! They plan to cut across Daein? With nothing more than a single regiment at whose core is a tattered band of ragtag mercenaries? Gawain's son leads this rabble, yes? How does he stand up to his father's legacy? (referring to Greil's swordsmanship based on the context)

Black Knight He doesn't. He's just a boy, not yet worthy of his father's name.

Ashnard Hmph. Disappointing.

Black Knight Though his skill with the blade is rough, there is something...uncanny about him. People seem drawn to him. And not just Begnion's apostle, either. He's also gained the trust of the Serenes survivors...and of King Phoenicis as well.

So... yeah; I never saw Alm's story as a commoner story, but an almost-Arthurian hidden royalty story. So, I found Echoes jarring, and the idea of Alm and Ike having the same archetype completely confusing. Everything about Alm as a commoner in Echoes, I attributed to the writers seeming to have conflicting ideas on how they wanted to update Gaiden. 

Knight is not a noble title. Alm does not get the title of Knight just because his grandfather was one. Alm starts his story in a village instead of a castle and does not get to have the Lord class. King Arthur parallels aren't entirely impossible at all, but Alm is a commoner. You might not think he feels like one, but he is. Like I said before, Shadows of Valentia didn't pull that out of its ass. The game starts in a village. It could have started with Alm being raised in a small fortress like the one Greil owns, but it stars in a bog standard village that Alm had lived in his entire known life.

Also (not that I think it actually matters) I just checked the script, and Mycen being ousted is in the original game.

[upper right]
Man:       Dozer is a blackheart. He secretly had all the children born to the
           royal family killed.
           Sir Mycen, who tried to stop him, was instead charged with the crime
           and driven from the castle.

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Jotari

[vanguard333]

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Also (not that I think it actually matters) I just checked the script, and Mycen being ousted is in the original game.

[upper right]
Man:       Dozer is a blackheart. He secretly had all the children born to the
           royal family killed.
           Sir Mycen, who tried to stop him, was instead charged with the crime
           and driven from the castle.

 

Huh. Thanks. 

[Eltosian Kadath]

53 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

 

The only nobility Ike has is given to him when he's given command of the Crimean Liberation Army, and that was solely because Begnion does not allow its soldiers, even its soldiers on-loan to someone else, to be led by a commoner. And as you said, he gives it up at the end of the game now that he no longer needs it. 

Radiant Dawn makes it very explicit that Ike was made a noble and turned it away

Quote

Mist:
“You know, Ike, if you hadn’t renounced your lordship, we wouldn’t have to run around like this to support ourselves.”

 

 

51 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

"Does that really make him no longer a knight? He isn't wanted, he isn't living under an alias, have his titles even been revoked?"

In the origional Gaiden script Mycen being a general wasn't known to the people of Ram village

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

Quote

Luka:
That infamous General Dozer has finally initiated a coup.
Sofia’s castle has been captured by Dozer’s troops. The king’s been killed as well.
Dozer is a cruel man. Many people are suffering every day.
We formed a liberation force to fight against Dozer, but unfortunately, it’s not going too well.
Because of that, we came to ask General Mycen to lend us his strength.

[Upper left]
Villager:
Ehh, so your old man used to be a general?

 

 

51 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

 

By contrast, in the few cases where Ike is regarded as anything special, the people are specifically referring to his sword skills or his charisma. For a quick example, compare and contrast these two lines:

Sounds alot like how the villagers from Gaiden treat Alm, by praising his sword skills

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

Quote

Cliff:
Me!? … What should I do…
Weeell, all right then, I’ll go with ya.
But if I get in trouble you’ve gotta help me out.
We’re not like you. We’re not good at fighting yet, y’know.

and charisma

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

Quote

Robin:
Alm, you’re our leader, aren’tcha? Of course we’re not gonna let you go alone.
Let’s go take back Sofia’s castle together.

 

One big thing to note is all of the villager treat Alm like he is one of them.

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

Quote

Gray:
Alm, I’m going too.
After all, this village of Rahm is bound to get attacked too at some point.
In that case, let’s go beat up that Dozer or whatever first.

Quote

[Upper right]
Villager:
Hey, Alm. The people of our country are in trouble. Let’s go help everyone out, yeah?

 

[vanguard333]

9 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Radiant Dawn makes it very explicit that Ike was made a noble and turned it away

That is literally what I was referring to: Ike was given a lordship in Path of Radiance specifically so he could lead the Crimean Liberation Army, as the Begnion soldiers on loan to them are not allowed to serve a commoner. He revoked it at the end of Path of Radiance the moment the war was over. My point was that that has nothing to do with him being son of Greil. 

 

9 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

In the origional Gaiden script Mycen being a general wasn't known to the people of Ram village

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

 

 

Sounds alot like how the villagers from Gaiden treat Alm, by praising his sword skills

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

and charisma

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

 

One big thing to note is all of the villager treat Alm like he is one of them.

from Serenes Forest's translation of Gaiden:

 

Okay; clearly either the translation I read was a bad translation, or I didn't read it all that well. 

 

Anyway, I concede a lot of good points that you guys have raised. However, I still feel that Alm's story isn't really framed as a commoner story (or at least, not all that well), and I think my main reason for why is best illustrated by how Alm and Ike respectively are called into action:

Alm is brought into action because Lukas was looking for Mycen, and Alm, being Mycen's supposed grandson, was the next best thing. This frames Alm's call to action as being predicated on his supposed bloodline. 

By contrast, what brings Ike into the conflict is purely that he finds Elincia (well, technically Rhys finds her, but my point remains valid). Soren was studying in the Crimean Capital's library when it came under attack by the Daein army. He fled back to the Greil Mercenaries. They investigated, and they found Elincia. This frames Ike's call to action as being based purely on the decision to investigate; it had nothing to do with bloodline. 

Does that make sense?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

That is literally what I was referring to: Ike was given a lordship in Path of Radiance specifically so he could lead the Crimean Liberation Army, as the Begnion soldiers on loan to them are not allowed to serve a commoner. He revoked it at the end of Path of Radiance the moment the war was over. My point was that that has nothing to do with him being son of Greil. 

 

This interpretation seems slightly off. From the script, as posted on Serenes Forest:

Spoiler

Many of Crimea’s noble houses raised their voices in protest against her rule. Elincia’s desire for a long-lasting peace has driven her to strengthen Crimea’s ties with the laguz nation of Gallia, and to renounce Crimea’s claim to rule over a defeated Daein. Her political moderation is seen as a sign of weakness among her critics. Ike, the young hero who led Crimea to victory in the Mad King’s War, was granted a peerage for his heroism and bravery. The elevation of a common mercenary to the nobility, however, widened the rift between the aristocracy and the queen yet further. Perhaps to avoid becoming mired in these power struggles, Ike renounced his peerage and took his leave of the court. Yet Ike’s actions did little to placate the nobility. They continue to criticize the queen’s every decision, and lay squarely at her feet the blame for all of Crimea’s woes.

The wording of the first bolded line suggests (though it does not state explicitly) that the peerage was granted after the war, and is thereby distinct from the knighting/promotion Ike received from Elincia following chapter 17 of Path of Radiance.

The second bolded line, and the one preceding, strongly suggests that Ike didn't renounce said peerage "immediately", but rather, after having a negative experience amidst the "power struggles". Whether he was in Elincia's court for two weeks, or half a year, we don't really know.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Added link

[vanguard333]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This interpretation seems slightly off. From the script, as posted on Serenes Forest:

  Reveal hidden contents

Many of Crimea’s noble houses raised their voices in protest against her rule. Elincia’s desire for a long-lasting peace has driven her to strengthen Crimea’s ties with the laguz nation of Gallia, and to renounce Crimea’s claim to rule over a defeated Daein. Her political moderation is seen as a sign of weakness among her critics. Ike, the young hero who led Crimea to victory in the Mad King’s War, was granted a peerage for his heroism and bravery. The elevation of a common mercenary to the nobility, however, widened the rift between the aristocracy and the queen yet further. Perhaps to avoid becoming mired in these power struggles, Ike renounced his peerage and took his leave of the court. Yet Ike’s actions did little to placate the nobility. They continue to criticize the queen’s every decision, and lay squarely at her feet the blame for all of Crimea’s woes.

The wording of the first bolded line suggests (though it does not state explicitly) that the peerage was granted after the war, and is thereby distinct from the knighting/promotion Ike received from Elincia following chapter 17 of Path of Radiance.

The second bolded line, and the one preceding, strongly suggests that Ike didn't renounce said peerage "immediately", but rather, after having a negative experience amidst the "power struggles". Whether he was in Elincia's court for two weeks, or half a year, we don't really know.

Yes. However, in the epilogue of Path of Radiance, we have this: 

Sephiran: “None of you can leave Crimea. The new queen will need your strength.”

Ike: “…I suppose that will be the case for a little while, won’t it?”

Sephiran: “…A little while? You are the hero of Crimea, General Ike. If you wish it, no post will be beyond your reach.”

Ike: “I don’t care about any of that. It’s more trouble than it’s worth. And I don’t see the value of being some fancy lord. When the country’s safe, I’m giving up that title and everything and going back to being a simple mercenary.”

(Funny enough; Ike's response causes Sephiran to laugh incredulously, leading Ike to call him rude). 

I will admit that my saying, "as soon as everything was over" was an exaggeration; he still needed to hold onto the title during Crimea's early recovery so they could keep using the Begnion troops that were loaned to them to help in the reconstruction and stuff like that. But my point stands that, once things settled down, he went back to being an ordinary mercenary completely of his own accord. He doesn't want it. 

It does seem to conflict with those lines in Part 2 of Radiant Dawn, and, to be honest, I was a bit confused when I first read that when playing Radiant Dawn for the first time. I assumed it had been a translation error or something like that; that it had been meaning to refer to the lordship he had been given in Path of Radiance, not anything he received after that. Perhaps it means he had been given a position in Elincia's court during the recovery period, but the Crimean Nobles didn't like the idea of a commoner, even a commoner that saved their a**es from Daein, in the court, so Ike did what he was going to do anyway and went back to being a common mercenary. That could explain it. 

Still, that would be title and position he was given for reasons outside his heritage, which was my whole point originally. Nothing he is given is from being Son of Gawain (as he isn't; he's the son of Greil. There is a difference), but for being Hero of the Mad King's War. 

 

22 hours ago, Jotari said:

Knight is not a noble title. Alm does not get the title of Knight just because his grandfather was one. Alm starts his story in a village instead of a castle and does not get to have the Lord class. King Arthur parallels aren't entirely impossible at all, but Alm is a commoner. You might not think he feels like one, but he is. Like I said before, Shadows of Valentia didn't pull that out of its ass. The game starts in a village. It could have started with Alm being raised in a small fortress like the one Greil owns, but it stars in a bog standard village that Alm had lived in his entire known life.

 

Yes; a knight is a title given when one is knighted, and the children of knights are not automatically knights. However, a knight is a class of lower nobility, and the children of knights would be considered part of that lower nobility. 

Yes; Alm does start his story in a village instead of a castle. (Funny enough, typically, so does King Arthur's). I do concede the growing up in a village point. I guess, as I said before in response to @Eltosian Kadath, the reason I don't really see Alm's story as framed as a commoner's story (or at least not framed all that well as a commoner's story) is for a reason that I think is best illustrated by how Alm and Ike respectively are called into the main conflict. To quote myself:

Quote

Alm is brought into action because Lukas was looking for Mycen, and Alm, being Mycen's supposed grandson, was the next best thing. This frames Alm's call to action as being predicated on his supposed bloodline. 

By contrast, what brings Ike into the conflict is purely that he finds Elincia (well, technically Rhys finds her, but my point remains valid). Soren was studying in the Crimean Capital's library when it came under attack by the Daein army. He fled back to the Greil Mercenaries. They investigated, and they found Elincia. This frames Ike's call to action as being based purely on the decision to investigate; it had nothing to do with bloodline. 

Does that make sense?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Perhaps it means he had been given a position in Elincia's court during the recovery period, but the Crimean Nobles didn't like the idea of a commoner, even a commoner that saved their a**es from Daein, in the court, so Ike did what he was going to do anyway and went back to being a common mercenary. That could explain it.

As someone who played RD first, that was my original interpretation. Likely, he served Elincia as he thought she needed him, but was conflicted about wanting to go back to Merc life, and the bad behavior of the nobility ultimately pushed him back out. Still not totally clear whether the "peerage" came from the mid-war promotion, or happened separately off-screen.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Still, that would be title and position he was given for reasons outside his heritage, which was my whole point originally. Nothing he is given is from being Son of Gawain (as he isn't; he's the son of Greil. There is a difference), but for being Hero of the Mad King's War. 

You'll get no sympathy... I mean, argument from me.

[Jotari]

10 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Yes. However, in the epilogue of Path of Radiance, we have this: 

Sephiran: “None of you can leave Crimea. The new queen will need your strength.”

Ike: “…I suppose that will be the case for a little while, won’t it?”

Sephiran: “…A little while? You are the hero of Crimea, General Ike. If you wish it, no post will be beyond your reach.”

Ike: “I don’t care about any of that. It’s more trouble than it’s worth. And I don’t see the value of being some fancy lord. When the country’s safe, I’m giving up that title and everything and going back to being a simple mercenary.”

(Funny enough; Ike's response causes Sephiran to laugh incredulously, leading Ike to call him rude). 

I will admit that my saying, "as soon as everything was over" was an exaggeration; he still needed to hold onto the title during Crimea's early recovery so they could keep using the Begnion troops that were loaned to them to help in the reconstruction and stuff like that. But my point stands that, once things settled down, he went back to being an ordinary mercenary completely of his own accord. He doesn't want it. 

It does seem to conflict with those lines in Part 2 of Radiant Dawn, and, to be honest, I was a bit confused when I first read that when playing Radiant Dawn for the first time. I assumed it had been a translation error or something like that; that it had been meaning to refer to the lordship he had been given in Path of Radiance, not anything he received after that. Perhaps it means he had been given a position in Elincia's court during the recovery period, but the Crimean Nobles didn't like the idea of a commoner, even a commoner that saved their a**es from Daein, in the court, so Ike did what he was going to do anyway and went back to being a common mercenary. That could explain it. 

Still, that would be title and position he was given for reasons outside his heritage, which was my whole point originally. Nothing he is given is from being Son of Gawain (as he isn't; he's the son of Greil. There is a difference), but for being Hero of the Mad King's War. 

 

Yes; a knight is a title given when one is knighted, and the children of knights are not automatically knights. However, a knight is a class of lower nobility, and the children of knights would be considered part of that lower nobility. 

Yes; Alm does start his story in a village instead of a castle. (Funny enough, typically, so does King Arthur's). I do concede the growing up in a village point. I guess, as I said before in response to @Eltosian Kadath, the reason I don't really see Alm's story as framed as a commoner's story (or at least not framed all that well as a commoner's story) is for a reason that I think is best illustrated by how Alm and Ike respectively are called into the main conflict. To quote myself:

Does that make sense?

Well they certainly lean more into the commoner aspect with Ike, even when comparing to Shadows of Valentina. But that doesn't actually change the fact that Alm's raised as a commoner. 

[vanguard333]

Anyway; let's bring the topic back to Fire Emblem tropes and story instead of focusing on Ike vs Alm. 

One thing I find interesting is how Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn created Base Conversations, which really added to the worldbuilding and the story through optional conversations between Ike and other characters (or a conversation that Ike happens to hear). I do think they played a big role, and their absence in post-Tellius FE games was definitely noticeable.

I say Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn created that because I consider them different from just talking to NPCs at different locations in Gaiden/Echoes, especially since those conversations are usually extremely short and rarely go anywhere near as in-depth. They also didn't allow for conversations amongst other characters that Alm/Celica happen to hear. However, they did have the advantage of being able to be more plentiful than base conversations.

Fates had those ancient texts in the My Castle that gave a couple details (like who Corrin's true father is), but ultimately that game's worldbuilding was just atrocious, and there's something about reading ancient texts that just isn't as interesting as multiple characters having a conversation about the subject. Personally, the only time I ever found ancient texts in video games interesting occurred when I had to go out of my way to find them/stumble upon them, like in Breath of the Wild or Pokémon Diamond. 

In an odd way, Three Houses, with the Monastery and library, has all three (or would it be more accurate to say it just has the latter two; I haven't finished Three Houses; not even close), so I'm wondering; which do you guys think it handled the best? Which of the three methods do you think is the best?