About Silver Snow...(Spoilers)

[Timlugia]

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So then Nemesis is fought in both Verdant Wind and Silver Snow and is inexplicably more powerful in Verdant Wind as a final boss? Or Rhea is the final boss in both routes?

Well, maybe Verdant Wind was added later, and took Nemesis level from Silver Snow for it's own?

Considering all shared cutscenes were made for Silver Snow, maybe Verdant Wind was a last minute addition.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 12/14/2019 at 8:57 AM, Jotari said:

I was considering proposing giving them unique classes to match the "real lords". The only issue I have is that I'm not sure what they could be without coming across as a different pain job. Wyvern Lord already covers Seteth pretty well and we already have Barbarossa for giving him bows. The only remaining option would be to give him exclusive access to flying magic which would be a bit of a deviation for him (granted since we're speculating possibilities he could just be a different unit from the outset). A flying armoured unit could be possible too I suppose. Actually that would fit him pretty well.

Regarding Flayne I can't really think of anything that could outsell Greomorie for her. Unless we make her flying Greomorie. Although a variation of Holy Knight that grants White Magic uses X2 instead of Tome Fair might work as well.

These are definitely good!

I would make Seteth's personal class a Wyvern Lord, but with Lancefaire over Axefaire and Charm (ability) rather than the Avo boost. Slightly less speed than the typical Wyvern Lord, but gets a boost to Res and Charm.

Flayn, I would have double down on Faith. White Magic uses x2 and 5 move like Gremory, but also White Tomefaire and Charm (ability). Slightly less magic than Gremory, but boosts to HP and Charm.

Addendum: Class Mastery is the same for both of them, they get the "Saintly Skewer" lance combat art. Costs 4 durability, adds 30% of Charm to damage, is effective against monsters, and casts Fortify after attacking.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[Timlugia]

Flyan could actually be a manakete class (assume they worked out the balance issue)

While Seteth clearly states he could no longer transform, Flyan never denies so (and she was standing next to him when such discussion was going), it's possible Flayn still maintain her ability to transform into a dragon.

[Jotari]

15 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Flyan could actually be a manakete class (assume they worked out the balance issue)

While Seteth clearly states he could no longer transform, Flyan never denies so (and she was standing next to him when such discussion was going), it's possible Flayn still maintain her ability to transform into a dragon.

Or Seteth could just not make that claim and go manakete too. I'm not sure who said it where, (maybe it was this very thread), but having Seteth able to go manakete gives more credance to Edelgard's whole the world is secretly being run by lizard people shtick.

[SpiceMan]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Or Seteth could just not make that claim and go manakete too. I'm not sure who said it where, (maybe it was this very thread), but having Seteth able to go manakete gives more credance to Edelgard's whole the world is secretly being run by lizard people shtick.

Thing about Seteth being able to transform is that realistically he would be the same size as The Wind caller, The Immovable and The Immaculate one. That is not a proper size for a player unit and downgrading his size just to make it realistically usable just would feel stupid when compared to the other saints so I think he should stick with the Lance Wyvern Lord class. 

For Flayn however, you could argue that since she is a lot younger she would have a small transformation and only take up 1 tile like previous games. I think that's reasonable enough and would certainly make Flayn more interesting and viable as a unit.

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, SpiceMan said:

Thing about Seteth being able to transform is that realistically he would be the same size as The Wind caller, The Immovable and The Immaculate one. That is not a proper size for a player unit and downgrading his size just to make it realistically usable just would feel stupid when compared to the other saints so I think he should stick with the Lance Wyvern Lord class. 

For Flayn however, you could argue that since she is a lot younger she would have a small transformation and only take up 1 tile like previous games. I think that's reasonable enough and would certainly make Flayn more interesting and viable as a unit.

I think they could get away with making him a four tile unit if it just seems appropriate to the design. I'm pretty sure the Beast (or whatever he's called, Marianne's ancestor). Plus having a giant enemy to play as would be pretty awesome imo. Though there'd need to be significant downsides to using it (maybe he loses control like the Beast and can potentially attack allies).

Edited December 18, 2019 by Jotari

[DragonFlames]

My biggest problem with Silver Snow is that we were robbed off the Battle of Gronder Field 2 for the Black Eagles, because IntSys couldn't be bothered to program in a 4th faction.
For a battle that was basically at the freaking CENTER of the marketing to only appear in two routes, while another, arguably pointless one (the one where we're like "hey, let's kill more bandits!" a.k.a. Maddening Nightmare Chapter 13) is in three out of four.

Even more "insulting" about this is two things:
1) We don't get a replacement chapter, so both Black Eagle routes are shorter than Blue Lions and Golden Deer for no discernible reason.
2) It takes place off-screen and we are TOLD how epic/cataclysmic it was. I wanted to part of that carnage, damn it!
3) Black Eagles are arguably advertised as the "main" route, even by the game itself, and many people picked them as their first for perhaps this or other reasons. No matter the reason, however, I'm sure many people asked themselves where the heck that cutscene from the trailers was.

I admit that my main reason for this complaint is because I absolutely LOVE that battle. The emotions of actually fighting to kill people you've interacted with five years prior, the contrast between the two preceding cutscenes, the music, the map itself...
I'd even go so far as to say that Gronder Field 2 is my absolute favorite battle in the entire series. And to not have it in Silver Snow was frankly a huge disappointment.

Complaint number two is about the "Rhea is the final boss" thing. It came completely out of nowhere with no prior allusion whatsofreakingever. At least with Nemesis, you get a cutscene of him and his Ten Elites awakening, so you KNOW there is more to come after Thales is killed, AND you get the full backstory on him so you know what to expect. Combined with the intro cutscene of him fighting Seiros, you realize Nemesis was that one guy that flattened an entire army with his Sword of the Creator before Seiros brutally stabbed him, this hypes you up for an epic finale. And boy does it ever deliver, in my opinion. Who knew a bandit as a final boss would be this awesome? Batta the Beast would be proud, I'm sure.
With Rhea, you expect the game to end when she tells Byleth about themselves (leaving out the parts about the true nature of the Zanado Tragedy, which would have been more thematically fitting to include here), but NOPE! Suddenly, she goes berserk, because... because.
That the map is the most frustrating the entire game due to the egregious amounts of monster spam and Rhea herself regenerating her barriers EVERY TIME SHE ATTACKS is just icing on the cake of honest disappointment.

Other than that, I'm fine with the route as a whole, even if it does feel similar to Verdant Wind. Seteth and Flayn make good replacements for the lords, I think, and Byleth is a great silent protagonist, so it's not really their fault that the route falls flat in parts compared to the others.

How would I "fix" it, then? Well... @Jotari already made a great post, so I'm just going to quote it here, since I agree with it fully:

On 12/14/2019 at 8:09 AM, Jotari said:

Oh, I was thinking about making something like this myself but coming from a different direction. Basically I think Silver Snow should have done a complete departure from the other routes and wrapped up Edelgard early because she lost the power of her strike team. Then, instead of her, the main thrust if the plot is driven by Nemesis.

I fucking love Nemesis's design. He looks like a total bad ass and I wish he played...well an actual role in the game. Even in the game the way it is now, I think it would have been way more thematically relevant to swap the Rhea  and Nemesis boss fights. Verdant Wind is about overthrowing the old superstitions, so having it end with Rhead's defeat would work appropriately. While in Silver Snow, the route where you work closest with the Church and thus Rhea, Nemesis would be the most appropriate as he represents all of Rhea's woes and the will of humans to overthrow the children of the gods. It's also the route that's the most Byleth focused (not that I disagree with making Seteth more of a lord), so having the final enemy be the predecessor of Byleth that s/he has to overcome makes sense too.

TL:Dr, making Nemesis the villain of Silver Snow would have made sense within the logic set up in Part 1 and with the themes of the route.

The only addition I'd make is to wrap up Edelgard at Gronder Field and THEN have TWSITD and Nemesis show up when everybody thought Edelgard was the instigator.

Here's how I would explain that Dimitri and perhaps Claude definitely die: Have Dimitri's death happen as it does in Verdant Wind, this time DURING the battle (like, have his AI charge Edelgard and have enemies there that will kill him, like Demonic Beasts or Killer Axe wielding Warmasters with Lancebreaker). You could even script his battle sequences like the very first Xander vs. Ryoma fight in Fates to ensure he definitely croaks before reaching Edelgard.
You could have something similar happen to Claude, where he's shot down by an enemy Sniper that spawns near him. Alternatively, Claude leaves during the battle, going back to Almyra like he does in the other routes.

As for why the Kingdom and the Alliance are fighting you in addition to each other and the Empire? Well, there are multiple ways to go about it:
1) there's fog, so you can't really tell who is who (not in gameplay because Fog of War on that map would be nightmarish)
2) everything is too chaotic to tell friend from foe, thus it's safer to attack anyone not affiliated with your side (this is actually the excuse Claude uses to fight you in Azure Moon, I believe)
3) you have a totally new banner that the others don't recognize, meaning they could realistically assume you're another enemy.
4) since you have the Black Eagles with you, who belong to the Empire originally, they could assume you're some kind of backup for Edelgard.
5) Dimitri went off the deep end, so he'd attack even Church members no problem given the opportunity, creating the aforementioned chaos where it gets hard to tell friend from foe. "KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!" remember?
7) The Alliance isn't an enemy at all and instead they're all Green Units with every questionable perk that comes with being such.
7.5) The Alliance are split between enemy and Green Units, because some of the Alliance is on the Empire's side.

Something like that.

Edited December 18, 2019 by DragonFlames
added some more suggestions

[Moltz23]

Speaking about the second battle at Gronder Field, it has always bugged me how in Silver Snow, the event canonically happens a month earlier than usual.

Like, the route shares the same story beats of Verdant Wind and Azure Moon to a tee, so having SS take a sudden deviation from the status quo without providing an in-universe explanation feels quite baffling (the closest thing we get is a reason for Byleth & co. to avoid the place around that time).

Makes me wonder if at some point during development there was a chapter meant to fill that chronological void which never ended up getting implemented because reasons.

Edit: Someone pointed up to me the game actually skips the month where the Gronder Field battle happens, so...yeah. My bad (I still think SS should've gotten an extra chapter tho).

Edited December 31, 2019 by Moltz23

[daisy jane]

On 12/18/2019 at 3:07 PM, DragonFlames said:

I admit that my main reason for this complaint is because I absolutely LOVE that battle. The emotions of actually fighting to kill people you've interacted with five years prior, the contrast between the two preceding cutscenes, the music, the map itself...
I'd even go so far as to say that Gronder Field 2 is my absolute favorite battle in the entire series. And to not have it in Silver Snow was frankly a huge disappointment.

 

it's my favourite too. and honestly, I don't even play silver snow (or CF) because it's not there.
it's just VW and AM for me. 

[DragonFlames]

2 hours ago, daisy jane said:

it's my favourite too. and honestly, I don't even play silver snow (or CF) because it's not there.
it's just VW and AM for me. 

Exactly. Now that I've seen everything Black Eagles has to offer (including Jeritza on Crimson Flower), I don't have any reason to revisit it, because they don't have my personal highlight. If I want to use any of the characters, I can always recruit them to the other houses (except Hubert and Edelgard, of course), so that's a non-issue as well.

[daisy jane]

1 minute ago, DragonFlames said:

Exactly. Now that I've seen everything Black Eagles has to offer (including Jeritza on Crimson Flower), I don't have any reason to revisit it, because they don't have my personal highlight. If I want to use any of the characters, I can always recruit them to the other houses (except Hubert and Edelgard, of course), so that's a non-issue as well.

 

Yeup. I mean i've done nothing but play this game since it released.right now I am doing a master grind to basically have a "oh i can do whatever i want" build  (or just an optimised "i'm doing this next") and i was like. well i wonder if i should take the time to do CF/SS so i can grind up Hubert and Edelgard (and Petra because as much as Ilike her i don't like her if thismakes sense) and it's always a big. NOPE.  

I don't agree with Edelgard's methods, I feel like i am a nefarious bad person lol when i am in that route, and i don't even get the satisfaction of playing of doing Gronder part 2 (or my second favourite, Reunion at Dawn). it's just a huge let down for me. 

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, daisy jane said:

I don't agree with Edelgard's methods, I feel like i am a nefarious bad person lol when i am in that route, and i don't even get the satisfaction of playing of doing Gronder part 2 (or my second favourite, Reunion at Dawn). it's just a huge let down for me. 

At least that one is still in Silver Snow. But you might as well be playing Verdant Wind instead, because they're practically the same route (minus Gronder Field, of course) with a different final map, a different initial cast, and a different approach to the lore (as in, you learn so much more about the lore in Verdant Wind than you do in Silver Snow).
And Verdant Wind's final battle is leagues better than Silver Snow's.

I admit that the main thing that makes me hesitate to play Crimson Flower is the fact that I'm betraying (and potentially forced to kill off) Seteth and Flayn, who are among my absolute favorite characters in this game. This is especially painful if you get supports with them or do their Paralogue before you side with Edelgard. It's like "thanks for your artifacts, now die!".

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 12/18/2019 at 12:07 PM, DragonFlames said:

My biggest problem with Silver Snow is that we were robbed off the Battle of Gronder Field 2 for the Black Eagles, because IntSys couldn't be bothered to program in a 4th faction.
For a battle that was basically at the freaking CENTER of the marketing to only appear in two routes, while another, arguably pointless one (the one where we're like "hey, let's kill more bandits!" a.k.a. Maddening Nightmare Chapter 13) is in three out of four.

Even more "insulting" about this is two things:
1) We don't get a replacement chapter, so both Black Eagle routes are shorter than Blue Lions and Golden Deer for no discernible reason.
2) It takes place off-screen and we are TOLD how epic/cataclysmic it was. I wanted to part of that carnage, damn it!
3) Black Eagles are arguably advertised as the "main" route, even by the game itself, and many people picked them as their first for perhaps this or other reasons. No matter the reason, however, I'm sure many people asked themselves where the heck that cutscene from the trailers was.

I admit that my main reason for this complaint is because I absolutely LOVE that battle. The emotions of actually fighting to kill people you've interacted with five years prior, the contrast between the two preceding cutscenes, the music, the map itself...
I'd even go so far as to say that Gronder Field 2 is my absolute favorite battle in the entire series. And to not have it in Silver Snow was frankly a huge disappointment.

Complaint number two is about the "Rhea is the final boss" thing. It came completely out of nowhere with no prior allusion whatsofreakingever. At least with Nemesis, you get a cutscene of him and his Ten Elites awakening, so you KNOW there is more to come after Thales is killed, AND you get the full backstory on him so you know what to expect. Combined with the intro cutscene of him fighting Seiros, you realize Nemesis was that one guy that flattened an entire army with his Sword of the Creator before Seiros brutally stabbed him, this hypes you up for an epic finale. And boy does it ever deliver, in my opinion. Who knew a bandit as a final boss would be this awesome? Batta the Beast would be proud, I'm sure.

I agree that Gronder 2 is an absolutely great fight, but I understand why it's not on Silver Snow (and believe me, I don't like giving Silver Snow credit). It's supposed to be about a three-way fight between the houses, an echo of the Battle of Eagle and Lion in Part 1. Turning it into a four-way fight would be weird. Also, there really isn't a good reason for all four to be on different sides... we get away with Dimitri and Claude fighting each other largely due to Dimitri's madness. Dimitri and Claude AND the church all fighting each other? When Claude had just sent troops to the church two chapters previously? I don't buy it.

Disagree about Nemesis; as bad as SS Rhea is as a final boss, Nemesis is pretty comparable. He gets no buildup (there's no suggestion he's alive until his revival cutscene, not even foreshadowing), and his presence is actively nonsensical - both that for some reason he doesn't show up on any other route (even though on SS, all the same triggers for his revival are presumably met) and for the reason that if the slitherers already have some Crest of Flames supersoldier, why go to the trouble of making another in Edelgard especially given how hard a time they seem to have controlling her? I also thought his battle was quite underwhelming, you get some generic JRPG "let's save the world" dialog and then a relatively ho-hum battle that just doesn't feel like much of a final battle to me (the only dialog once you reach the battlefield is a tutorial-esque "careful, we're fighting in a swamp!"). Compared to how great the AM and CF final bosses are as capstones of what you've built towards and fought for in each route (not to mention how much more developed and nuanced those two antagonists are) he makes for a very underwhelming finale.

[daisy jane]

i'm wondering if you did a complete Knights of Serios run on Silver Snow, if the game play would be more enjoyable?

[Moltz23]

34 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

i'm wondering if you did a complete Knights of Serios run on Silver Snow, if the game play would be more enjoyable?

It could be possible, but at the same time it would be a bit cumbersome to pull off since Edelgard leaving with her deployment slot means you lose room to use more people if you're already planning on using the remaining Black Eagles + Seteth as well.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Silver Snow also ironically makes it harder to use two of the Seiros-alligned characters (Catherine and Cyril) due to them not being recruitable until Chapter 12, compared to Azure Moon and Verdant Winds. And of course Gilbert is unavailable entirely.

[paladin21]

On 12/16/2019 at 7:12 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

These are definitely good!

I would make Seteth's personal class a Wyvern Lord, but with Lancefaire over Axefaire and Charm (ability) rather than the Avo boost. Slightly less speed than the typical Wyvern Lord, but gets a boost to Res and Charm.

Flayn, I would have double down on Faith. White Magic uses x2 and 5 move like Gremory, but also White Tomefaire and Charm (ability). Slightly less magic than Gremory, but boosts to HP and Charm.

Addendum: Class Mastery is the same for both of them, they get the "Saintly Skewer" lance combat art. Costs 4 durability, adds 30% of Charm to damage, is effective against monsters, and casts Fortify after attacking.

Fortify as an art is to op. There's a reason why only two characters can use it as a full action and only 2-4 times per map unless a crest triggers.

As for their classes, if say dragon general for Seteth (with skills relying on his statue boosts), and saint for Flayn (basically a boosted bishop, since she's said to have been a healer during the first war).

[Timlugia]

One thing that is very unique to Silver Snow, and probably enough to justified it is the final chapter:

It is the only path showing post war planning and character reconcile/reflect about their lives in the new era.

All other path, including VW ends as soon as war end, but SS had protagonist defeated their enemy (TWIST) first then Rhea attacks unexpectedly when everyone thinks war was over and were preparing the coronation.

As result, we get to see each surviving characters on their post war planning and how they reconcile with their lives. Such as how Felix planned to visit grave of Dimitri, or Petra ready to take her throne and renegotiate with the new Fodlan