What’s your least favorite Smash argument?

[Fabulously Olivier]

19 minutes ago, Yexin said:

i hate it when people try to find justifications for their most wanted characters to be dlc by stating that assist trophies and spirits don't deconfirm said characters (looking at you, waluigi fans)

Well, that one is contentious. It's not true that these things deconfirm characters. It's also not false. As far as I know, we don't have word of God on this one, at least as far as spirits go. 

 

My philosophy is just not to make a statement in either direction, as either statement has a 50% chance of making me look like a fool.

2 hours ago, Florete said:

Anyone being a "waste of a slot," especially when it concerns clone characters. Some people just don't realize that if Lucina wasn't in the game, it wouldn't mean [your most wanted] would get in...unless [your most wanted] would work as a Marth clone.

For my part, it isn't a matter of "this character isn't worth the effort," but rather that there is value in a clean and convenient character selection screen, and that value is higher than the very minor playstyle differences that echo fighters provide.

 

This isn't to say that Lucina, Chrom, etc. don't belong or don't deserve to be in. Hell, 3 of my most played characters are echo fighters (Chrom, Richter, and Ken).

 

I just think that these characters, in a future Smash, would all benefit from being alt costumes of the main fighter. If it's good enough for Dragon Quest, it's good enough for Fire Emblem and Castlevania.

 

And in this dlc-heavy world in which we live, this does have benefits. Okay, an Echo fighter takes a tiny fraction of the work involved for a main fighter. But the other truth is that a new Fire Emblem character in a Smash with a perceived 4 FE reps is going to be better received than a new Fire Emblem rep in a Smash with 7 perceived reps, 4 of which are near identical.

[Florete]

2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I just think that these characters, in a future Smash, would all benefit from being alt costumes of the main fighter. If it's good enough for Dragon Quest, it's good enough for Fire Emblem and Castlevania.

Ultimate does sort of have this with the option to combine echoes into the same slot as the base and even decide which one is the main and which is the sub.

[Faellin]

Someone arguing X character is far to niche to be in smash. When they in fact are not, and are quite relavent.

While at the same time they try to argue a character who is even more niche and obscure should take the spot.

[Yexin]

19 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Well, that one is contentious. It's not true that these things deconfirm characters. It's also not false. As far as I know, we don't have word of God on this one, at least as far as spirits go. 

 

My philosophy is just not to make a statement in either direction, as either statement has a 50% chance of making me look like a fool.

i know that, and that's because i hate it when they use that argument like it's objective and 100% true

i personally think that spirits and assist trophies do deconfirm potential dlcs, but i never make it sound like it's the absolute truth

[NSSKG151]

I hate the argument of when someone says their most wanted character 'deserves' to be playable because of whatever arbitrary reasons they come up with. No one 'deserves' to be playable in Smash.

I also hate the idea of 'too many swordfighters in Smash' when there are just as many or more characters fighting with their bare hands. Really, a more sound argument should be 'I don't like how several swordfighters have similar looking movesets'.

[Gregster101]

35 minutes ago, Yexin said:

i know that, and that's because i hate it when they use that argument like it's objective and 100% true

i personally think that spirits and assist trophies do deconfirm potential dlcs, but i never make it sound like it's the absolute truth

I still don't really buy into the whole "spirits deconfirm characters for dlc" thing. At least not base game spirits. Spirits added post launch such as the Resident Evil characters, yeah I think that's deconfirmation. But I still think characters who were spirits in the base game could be added, especially since Mewtwo and Lucas were trophies in Smash 4's base game only to become DLC anyway.

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

I still don't really buy into the whole "spirits deconfirm characters for dlc" thing. At least not base game spirits. Spirits added post launch such as the Resident Evil characters, yeah I think that's deconfirmation. But I still think characters who were spirits in the base game could be added, especially since Mewtwo and Lucas were trophies in Smash 4's base game only to become DLC anyway.

I think the opposite may be true. Base game spirits might deconfirm characters for fighter pass 1, where everything was planned all at once. But does anyone really think a random .jpg is going to stop Sakurai/Nintendo from adding any of these characters in a Fighter Pass 2 now that the scope has been expanded?

Edited December 16, 2019 by Etheus

[Florete]

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I think the opposite may be true. Base game spirits might deconfirm characters for fighter pass 1, where everything was planned all at once. But does anyone really thing a random .jpg is going to stop Sakurai/Nintendo from adding any of these characters in a Fighter Pass 2 now that the scope has been expanded?

This is likely the case.

We should look at it in terms of “cycles.” Smash 4 base game and dlc were separate cycles, so Mewtwo and Lucas were dlc even though they had trophies in the base game. Ultimate base game and fighter pass are very likely the same cycle, but the second wave of dlc is very likely a new cycle, so Ultimate base game won’t effect it.

[Gregster101]

12 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I think the opposite may be true. Base game spirits might deconfirm characters for fighter pass 1, where everything was planned all at once. But does anyone really think a random .jpg is going to stop Sakurai/Nintendo from adding any of these characters in a Fighter Pass 2 now that the scope has been expanded?

Ok Fighter Pass 1 sure, but now that we know that there are more fighters planned beyond that, I wouldn't be suprised if we get a character that was originally a spirit. And same, why should they let a fucking jpeg from Google Images prevent them from adding characters like say Geno, Shantae, or Bandana Dee?

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

Ok Fighter Pass 1 sure, but now that we know that there are more fighters planned beyond that, I wouldn't be suprised if we get a character that was originally a spirit. And same, why should they let a fucking jpeg from Google Images prevent them from adding characters like say Geno, Shantae, or Bandana Dee?

That was literally my exact point. 

 

And of all the spirit characters, the most likely to be reconfirmed (based on Sakurai's own expressed wishes) are Rex & Pyra.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Etheus

[Gregster101]

4 minutes ago, Etheus said:

That was literally my exact point. 

 

And of all the spirit characters, the most likely to be reconfirmed (based on Sakurai's own expressed wishes) are Rex & Pyra.

Rex and Pyra are one of the Spirits I can see being DLC the most due to how much Sakurai wanted to include them but was unable to due to bad timing

[Fire Emblem Fan]

"Too many sword users!" Dude a large, large, LARGE number of video game protagonists use swords as they're primary weapon. We're gonna get a lot of sword users.

"Too many Fire Emblem characters!" Sigh...the FE representation is fine. I'd say it could even get a couple more characters. Cool your jets!

"Assist Trophies/Spirits/Mii Costumes deconfirm characters!" Nah that hasn't been stated or demonstrated anywhere. Until Sakurai says it directly, they do not deconfirm anything.

[Flere210]

7 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

"Too many sword users!" Dude a large, large, LARGE number of video game protagonists use swords as they're primary weapon. We're gonna get a lot of sword users.

"Too many Fire Emblem characters!" Sigh...the FE representation is fine. I'd say it could even get a couple more characters. Cool your jets!

I will quickly adress both point because they stem from the same sources. JRPG may be your favorite genre, but this is not a reason why it should be entitled a larger amount of characters than any other genre in existence. Because as we stand, every single sword user come from a JRPG whit Link coming from something whose genre is ambiguos but it may be JRPG. I am convinced that if the next sword user is something from soul calibur or a western game people won't react too badly. 

While there are differences between the anime pretty boys, those pales in comparisson to: "Italian-american plumber that throw fireballs" "pink ball that eat too much", "Blue hedgehog that gotta go fast" and "bear whit a bird in his backpack" that platformers got.

[vanguard333]

8 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

"Assist Trophies/Spirits/Mii Costumes deconfirm characters!" Nah that hasn't been stated or demonstrated anywhere. Until Sakurai says it directly, they do not deconfirm anything

I'd say assist trophies definitely do, and mii costumes definitely don't. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a BOTW Link outfit, Samus outfit, King K. Rool outfit, etc. 

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

I will quickly adress both point because they stem from the same sources. JRPG may be your favorite genre, but this is not a reason why it should be entitled a larger amount of characters than any other genre in existence. Because as we stand, every single sword user come from a JRPG whit Link coming from something whose genre is ambiguos but it may be JRPG. I am convinced that if the next sword user is something from soul calibur or a western game people won't react too badly. 

The Legend of Zelda's genre isn't ambiguous; it's called action-adventure:

"An action-adventure game can be defined as a game with a mix of elements from an action game and an adventure game, especially crucial elements like puzzles. Action-adventures require many of the same physical skills as action games, but also offer a storyline, numerous characters, an inventory system, dialogue, and other features of adventure games. They are faster-paced than pure adventure games, because they include both physical and conceptual challenges. Action-adventure games normally include a combination of complex story elements, which are displayed for players using audio and video. The story is heavily reliant upon the player character's movement, which triggers story events and thus affects the flow of the game. Some examples of action-adventure games include The Legend of Zelda, God of War, and Tomb Raider series." -- Wikipedia, which I know isn't the best source of information, but it is a good source for sources of information due to the huge amount of citations in each article. 

Admittedly, the article does state that the action-adventure genre is broad in scope with many subgenres, but it also says that where a specific subgenre applies, the game will usually be referred to as being of that subgenre. For instance, it identifies Tomb Raider as a "Platform-Adventure" game. The Legend of Zelda, however, doesn't fall under any such subgenre. 

 

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

I will quickly address both point because they stem from the same sources. JRPG may be your favorite genre, but this is not a reason why it should be entitled a larger amount of characters than any other genre in existence. Because as we stand, every single sword user come from a JRPG

While there are differences between the anime pretty boys, those pales in comparison to: "Italian-american plumber that throw fireballs" "pink ball that eat too much", "Blue hedgehog that gotta go fast" and "bear whit a bird in his backpack" that platformers got.

I think you may have just agreed with him in your attempt to disagree with him. Yes; 3D collect-athon platformers did have a variety of different character designs, but at the core, they were all cartoony characters who specialize in running and jumping because that's a basic part of the genre, like "pretty-boy anime swordsman" is to the JRPG genre. The difference is that, while the JRPG genre has only gotten more popular, 3D platformers have only gotten more archaic and obscure, with the most recent 3 being Yooka-Laylee, A Hat in Time and Mario Odyssey, and the former two are indie games. 

Yes; admittedly, 2D platformers have remained fairly popular, but all of them fall under either the cartoony puncher & kicker who jumps, or the MegaMan/Metroidvania mold when it comes to character design. 

[Flere210]

A game can be many genre at once, such as undertale being both an RPG and a bullet hell. 

That said, molds can be narrow or broad. Cartoony is still a large spectrum and anime is a smaller(but still pretty broad) spectrum whitin it. FPS and JRPG have less diverse protagonist compared to most other genres even if the diverse characters still play similarly to each other. Metroidvania have a woman in an high tech armor that mostly shoot laser and a vampire hunter whit a whip just by looking at where the term came from. 

And while JRPGs are more popular, they are nowhere close to the heights of the SNES or PS1 eras and for example, Crash Nsane Trilogy outsold even Persona 5.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I will quickly adress both point because they stem from the same sources. JRPG may be your favorite genre, but this is not a reason why it should be entitled a larger amount of characters than any other genre in existence. Because as we stand, every single sword user come from a JRPG whit Link coming from something whose genre is ambiguos but it may be JRPG. I am convinced that if the next sword user is something from soul calibur or a western game people won't react too badly. 

While there are differences between the anime pretty boys, those pales in comparisson to: "Italian-american plumber that throw fireballs" "pink ball that eat too much", "Blue hedgehog that gotta go fast" and "bear whit a bird in his backpack" that platformers got.

I'm just trying to figure out how you went on to assume JRPGs were my favorite genre.

[Eltosian Kadath]

 

 

25 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

The Legend of Zelda's genre isn't ambiguous; it's called action-adventure:

"An action-adventure game can be defined as a game with a mix of elements from an action game and an adventure game, especially crucial elements like puzzles. Action-adventures require many of the same physical skills as action games, but also offer a storyline, numerous characters, an inventory system, dialogue, and other features of adventure games. They are faster-paced than pure adventure games, because they include both physical and conceptual challenges. Action-adventure games normally include a combination of complex story elements, which are displayed for players using audio and video. The story is heavily reliant upon the player character's movement, which triggers story events and thus affects the flow of the game. Some examples of action-adventure games include The Legend of Zelda, God of War, and Tomb Raider series." -- Wikipedia, which I know isn't the best source of information, but it is a good source for sources of information due to the huge amount of citations in each article. 

Admittedly, the article does state that the action-adventure genre is broad in scope with many subgenres, but it also says that where a specific subgenre applies, the game will usually be referred to as being of that subgenre. For instance, it identifies Tomb Raider as a "Platform-Adventure" game. The Legend of Zelda, however, doesn't fall under any such subgenre. 

 

Some people have classified the Zelda games as action RPGs, hence the ambiguity. the Action RPG is a subgenre of RPGs that uses real time combat and incorporates action game elements, but outside of Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link, I have always found that designation rather suspect. Better examples of the genre are things like the Mana series (ex. Secret of Mana), the Quintet trilogy (ex. Terranigma), the Ys series (ex Ys 1), or the Tales Series (ex Tales of the Abyss).

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

 

 

Some people have classified the Zelda games as action RPGs, hence the ambiguity. the Action RPG is a subgenre of RPGs that uses real time combat and incorporates action game elements, but outside of Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link, I have always found that designation rather suspect. Better examples of the genre are things like the Mana series (ex. Secret of Mana), the Quintet trilogy (ex. Terranigma), the Ys series (ex Ys 1), or the Tales Series (ex Tales of the Abyss).

Action RPG is also a really poor genre label. 

 

To illustrate, it's used as a common descriptor for both Diablo and Dark Souls and everything inbetween. These two franchises could not have less in common mechanically and philosophically if they tried. They are effectively polar opposites.

[vanguard333]

16 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Some people have classified the Zelda games as action RPGs, hence the ambiguity. the Action RPG is a subgenre of RPGs that uses real time combat and incorporates action game elements, but outside of Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link, I have always found that designation rather suspect. Better examples of the genre are things like the Mana series (ex. Secret of Mana), the Quintet trilogy (ex. Terranigma), the Ys series (ex Ys 1), or the Tales Series (ex Tales of the Abyss).

They are incorrect. The Legend of Zelda definitely is not an RPG. 

 

12 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Action RPG is also a really poor genre label. 

 

To illustrate, it's used as a common descriptor for both Diablo and Dark Souls and everything in-between. These two franchises could not have less in common mechanically and philosophically if they tried. They are effectively polar opposites.

They still share common elements (namely the combination of action and role-playing mechanics) that they fall under the genre. A broad genre label is not necessarily a bad one. 

[Flere210]

30 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I'm just trying to figure out how you went on to assume JRPGs were my favorite genre.

I assumed based on the fact that you want more JRPG people in smash

[Eltosian Kadath]

15 minutes ago, Etheus said:

 

To illustrate, it's used as a common descriptor for both Diablo and Dark Souls and everything inbetween. These two franchises could not have less in common mechanically and philosophically if they tried. They are effectively polar opposites.

The issue there is that people started using it as a subgenre of Western RPGs, when it really should have stayed a subgenre of JRPGs. Western RPGs and JRPGs are also terrible named genre terms as they are very clearly different genre (although both drew inspiration from pen and paper RPGs, simply interpreterd through different cultural lenses), plus games that are easily recognizable as JRPG can come from the west, and games that are recognizable as Western RPGs can come from Japan (Dark Souls itself is a good example of this). Side note, there was an early three parter that Extra Credits did back in the day that does a good job of discussing the differences between those two generes. As a subgenre of Western RPGs, action RPG is almost useless, as turn based combat was never a key element of Western RPGs like it was in JRPGs, which makes it almost redundant.

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

They are incorrect. The Legend of Zelda definitely is not an RPG. 

The Legend of Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link clearly is. One argument I have seen for The Legend of Zelda being an RPG come from seeing the Heart Containers from bosses, and the dungeon equipment drops from minibosses as creative ways of displaying levelups. I have always found this logic rather tenuous and reaching, but it only seemed fair to mention it. Unfortunately this tenuous link, and one actual example, let numerous listicals feel justified in adding every Zelda game under the sun into adventure RPG list, furthering this ambiguity.

[vanguard333]

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The Legend of Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link clearly is. One argument I have seen for The Legend of Zelda being an RPG come from seeing the Heart Containers from bosses, and the dungeon equipment drops from minibosses as creative ways of displaying levelups. I have always found this logic rather tenuous and reaching, but it only seemed fair to mention it. Unfortunately this tenuous link, and one actual example, let numerous listicals feel justified in adding every Zelda game under the sun into adventure RPG list, furthering this ambiguity.

Yes; Zelda 2 is definitely the weird one in the series.

Yeah; that is very much grasping at straws. Well, people may label it as an RPG, but if it has none of the core elements that distinguish RPGs from other genres, it's not an RPG. They may as well call Super Mario Bros. an RPG by labelling green mushrooms as level-ups. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

I have to question why JRPGs aren't "entitled" to more characters. It seems to boil down to you don't like them or don't like their characters. But they happen to a genre that is expanding, rather than contracting. 

 

Platformers, on the other hand... The successful platforming IPs now are the same ones from decades past. We have Mario doing well. In fact, Mario is the only one to consistently do well on NEW (as in not remade) titles. We have remakes of Crash and Spyro doing well. We have Sonic faceplanting into a pile of his own feces (but what else is new?). And aside from that, it's mostly indies. And in terms of classic IP, the genre has actually lost relevant IP, with Megaman being one of Capcom's least developed major IPs, and Castlevania dying almost entirely. We'll probably be getting Crash and/or Spyro in Smash (as we should), but like Sonic, Castlevania, and Megaman, these can be viewed as retro reps.

[Flere210]

6 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I have to question why JRPGs aren't "entitled" to more characters. It seems to boil down to you don't like them or don't like their characters. But they happen to a genre that is expanding, rather than contracting. 

Because the main boxes have been check and there is so many genres that barely got anything or literally got nothing, including large and expanding ones. FPS beingbthe larger one and having good options. Platformers also are in a good place, i just mentioned them as an example of roster that don't feel samey.

Edit: i forgot that Samus may coubt as an FPS character.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Flere210

[Fabulously Olivier]

14 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Because the main boxes have been check and there is so many genres that barely hot anything or literally got nothing, including large and expanding ones. FPS beingbthe larger one and having good options. Platformers also are in a good place, i just mentioned them as an example of roster that don't feel samey.

No, the JRPG bases are not covered. One of the big 3-4 IP (Tales) isn't in. We also have legitimately different, vibrant IP that would be PERFECT for Smash (like Ni No Kuni).

 

Yes, we can use a shooter rep or two. Technically, we have one with Splatoon.

 

It's really that a lot of FPS and TPS reps aren't a good fit for Smash. There's a reason why Halo, Doom, and Overwatch come up almost exclusively. And that's because the other primary IP are all pretty much real world military shooters (CoD/Battlefield/Counterstrike), a game full of literal Nazis (Wolfenstein), licensed IP, dead IP, or are just forgettable guff. I'm sure we'll probably see one or more of Halo, Doom, or Overwatch get a rep. But it's also probably going to be really unsurprising. Maybe we'll get a Destiny or Warframe curveball... who knows?

Edited December 17, 2019 by Etheus