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What’s your least favorite Smash argument?

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12 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Edit: i forgot that Samus may coubt as an FPS character.

6 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Technically, we have one with Splatoon.

Don't forget Dark Samus that is an enemy exclusive to the FPS Metroid games.

 

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I know this is a little off topic, but I hate that some people literal take leaks as a reliable source of information when it comes to smash. I get it there generally isn't a lot of info on some games. It happens but that doesn't mean people should take it as bible. 

Looking at you game awards, and Grinch leaks that happened in one year of smash ultimate being released.

 

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I wouldn't get too hung up on semantic debates about genre. They say little about the content of a game, and in the game industry are primarily tools for marketing teams to figure out how to sell a game to the maximum amount of people who would be interested in buying it.

And even if we did typify game genres based on their content alone, we run into issues. One time I tried to define what a "collectathon" game was, since I thought "3D Platformer" was too vague. One of my stipulations was: the game's progression collectable (ie. Power Stars in Mario 64, since they let you access more levels and finally the end of the game), must be laid out in a way where you don't need 100% of the required amount to beat the game. So, you need 70 out of 120 power stars to beat Mario 64. If there is any possibility you and I will collect different ones in our playthroughs, it meets the criteria. Well, this resulted in me excluding Mario Sunshine - Mario 64's direct sequel. The reason is that you only need a specific 50 out of 120 shines to unlock the ending. Which 50? The airport strip shine, and first seven "missions" of the game's seven levels. You can't do mission shines out of order (barring a couple unintended glitches), so that means 100% of the shines you need to beat the game will be gotten in every playthrough. Not a collectathon if the remaining 70 don't matter. But my decision to exclude Sunshine met with issues because while I was focused on the content of the game, other people could argue the moment to moment gameplay is still the same as a collectathon game no matter how it's programmed. You can make an argument either way based on only empirical evidence instead of "this game just feels like a collectathon, so I say it is", though I certainly got that response as well.

On the Zelda side. People definitely did call it an RPG, though I recall people doing so around the time of Link to the Past. Because the advent of 3D gaming prompted people to refer to them as "adventure games". In Link to the Past, you name a character, explore dungeons, talk to NPCs, and collect powerful equipment, relics, and magical spells. It's a DnD campaign minus the experience points. Any DnD player will tell you that leveling up is mostly a formality. A game-ified marker of progression more than anything. And Link to the Past certainly has more role playing than the contemporary jrpg - did I mention you can name your character? I guess the moral of the story is that while most genres have become ubiquitous action or action-adventure games, rpgs have actually narrowed in their definition.

Edited by Glennstavos

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2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I assumed based on the fact that you want more JRPG people in smash

You would be incorrect on both counts. I just want more characters I like, whether they be from a platformer, (J)RPG, action/adventure...

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Another argument I've seen thrown around here I don't like is "Sora can't get in without Disney" even though there's hundreds of original material, both in characters and in move lists for Sora's moveset. To give you guys an idea, here's a comparison chart in regards to importance of the main characters to the plot:

 

And if anyone here is still put off by Sora being owned by Disney:

 

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22 minutes ago, Perkilator said:

And if anyone here is still put off by Sora being owned by Disney:

I've never seen anyone say Sora can't be in Smash because of Disney making him ineligible/not a video game character, only that Nintendo and Sakurai would have to negotiate with Disney and they might not be willing/able to do that.

Otherwise...

24 minutes ago, Perkilator said:

Another argument I've seen thrown around here I don't like is "Sora can't get in without Disney" even though there's hundreds of original material, both in characters and in move lists for Sora's moveset. To give you guys an idea, here's a comparison chart in regards to importance of the main characters to the plot:

I mean, sure, Sora could theoretically work in Smash without any Disney involvement...but that's not really Sora at that point. Regardless of how much original material might be in the games compared to Disney, KH is at its core still about being a crossover between Disney and Final Fantasy. The games are all about Sora, Donald, and Goofy traveling to various Disney worlds. That tweet is really misleading and sounds like it's coming from someone who wants Sora in Smash no matter what.

Sora without Disney would basically just be a slightly fancier anime swordsman (it's actually a key!). Would you really be satisfied seeing Sora in Smash without Donald, Goofy, or any other Disney references? Somehow I don't think Sakurai would.

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4 minutes ago, Florete said:

I've never seen anyone say Sora can't be in Smash because of Disney making him ineligible/not a video game character, only that Nintendo and Sakurai would have to negotiate with Disney and they might not be willing/able to do that.

Otherwise...

I mean, sure, Sora could theoretically work in Smash without any Disney involvement...but that's not really Sora at that point. Regardless of how much original material might be in the games compared to Disney, KH is at its core still about being a crossover between Disney and Final Fantasy. The games are all about Sora, Donald, and Goofy traveling to various Disney worlds. That tweet is really misleading and sounds like it's coming from someone who wants Sora in Smash no matter what.

Sora without Disney would basically just be a slightly fancier anime swordsman (it's actually a key!). Would you really be satisfied seeing Sora in Smash without Donald, Goofy, or any other Disney references? Somehow I don't think Sakurai would.

Yes, I would. And I'm not so sure we can all speak for Sakurai on that regard, since we've never heard his opinion on the matter.

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2 minutes ago, Perkilator said:

Yes, I would. And I'm not so sure we can all speak for Sakurai on that regard, since we've never heard his opinion on the matter.

Obviously we can't say for sure, I just don't think he would. It would be like implementing Banjo without Kazooie, or Joker without any personas.

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3 hours ago, Florete said:

Obviously we can't say for sure, I just don't think he would. It would be like implementing Banjo without Kazooie, or Joker without any personas.

Or only one Ice Climber, or Shulk without Dunban and Riki in his final smash. The list can go on. 

 

I really dislike the argument that all FE can ever offer Smash is swordsmen just because a majority of the protagonists are swordsmen. Not only does this ignore the fact that it doesn't have to be a protagonist, as a large number of non-protagonists are in Smash Bros., it also ignores the fact that they could easily chose/have chosen FE protagonists that weren't swordsmen; namely Ephraim, Hector, Micaiah, and now Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude.

It also ignores that some of those swordsmen protagonists also had a second weapon option that could've also been used in addition to their swords: Ike can also use axes in Radiant Dawn, and Chrom and Lucina can use lances in addition to swords. And, for two FE characters in Smash, they do also use their secondary weapon: Robin uses tomes, and Corrin uses his dragonstone. 

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On 12/20/2019 at 5:50 PM, Florete said:

Obviously we can't say for sure, I just don't think he would. It would be like implementing Banjo without Kazooie, or Joker without any personas.

I think I agree with this, he wouldn't "feel like" Sora to me. Not that I want him in, but if he gets included it should be done right, I think.

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On 12/20/2019 at 10:33 PM, vanguard333 said:

they could easily chose/have chosen FE protagonists that weren't swordsmen; namely Ephraim, Hector, Micaiah 

Timing doesn't match up for micaiah, like at all, RD came out during production of brawl not during planning phases, Ike also had a built in moveset unlike ephraim and hector who both had recovery options which were dubious at best. That isn't to say that Ike got in because he was the best choice at the time, he was chosen because sakurai chooses based on the most recent entry for fire emblem (chrom was smash ballot so I'm inclined to not count that as a change in attitude).

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3 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

Timing doesn't match up for micaiah, like at all, RD came out during production of brawl not during planning phases, Ike also had a built in moveset unlike ephraim and hector who both had recovery options which were dubious at best. That isn't to say that Ike got in because he was the best choice at the time, he was chosen because sakurai chooses based on the most recent entry for fire emblem (chrom was smash ballot so I'm inclined to not count that as a change in attitude).

Sure, though is timing really that big a big deal? That's the rule he's followed for Fire Emblem characters, but he doesn't always choose the latest characters. He still could've picked Micaiah for 4 or Ultimate. Unlikely, but he could've, and I would've rather seen Micaiah as DLC than see Roy return as DLC. 

Also, Chrom and Lucina both could've had lances added to their moveset in addition to the Falchion. 

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4 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Also, Chrom and Lucina both could've had lances added to their moveset in addition to the Falchion. 

This wont happen, but is a great idea. 

A minor nitpick, they should have yellow sword trails, why are they blue?

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Just now, lightcosmo said:

This wont happen, but is a great idea. 

A minor nitpick, they should have yellow sword trails, why are they blue?

Thanks.

Ike's fire was red in Brawl instead of blue. Perhaps the sword trails will be fixed in another game. 

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1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

Thanks.

Ike's fire was red in Brawl instead of blue. Perhaps the sword trails will be fixed in another game. 

If Ike swings his sword he has yellow trails since his sword is yellow, makes sense to me. Lucina/Chrom should also have yellow.

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"This character can't be in Smash because they wield a sword! How unoriginal! FENH!"

I've seen so many people spout this foolish argument seemingly everywhere I go. Certian Smash fans have this mentality that if a character wields a sword, they're not viable for Smash because "they're unoriginal" and "they'd play the same as other sword characters". I've legit had someone tell me that Dante from Devil May Cry would be play no different than Cloud or that Yuri Lowell from Tales of Vesperia would be an Ike clone.

It's a load of nonsense, yet so many Smash fans I've run into buy into it. It makes no sense.

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Okay, expanding on my argument in the OP regarding Byleth, here's a post from Smashboards that describes my feelings perfextly:

"I never really understood the idea of all House Leaders from TH being shoved into the same character, the entire point of the game is that you have to pick a side, the only time they ever work together is in the opening map of the game, in the rest of it their relationships range from friendly rivalry to waging war on each other over differing ideologies. It's a particular issue with Edelgard and Dimitri, I don't think there's any way them teaming up could really be justified. To me the whole concept seems forced just for the sake of not having to pick one of the three, and I think it's fair enough to feel that way, but at that point Byleth is just the more logical option.

In general I highly doubt we're ever getting anything like Pokémon Trainer again, it taking the development of three unique characters really isn't ideal, there's little reason to push for it given the concept is already realized within the game, and when we're talking about DLC I'm not sure it's even possible given that the development team is scaled down and they have a very strict schedule to keep up with. On top of that I think Sakurai also views the transformation mechanic as being Pokémon Trainer's thing, it's pretty noteworthy that he kept Zelda/Shiek and Samus/ZSS separate, but still felt the need to combine Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard back together."

This user's words, not mine. Which supports my original point; either include all the House Leaders as separate characters, or include none of them and just use Byleth.

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On 1/4/2020 at 11:02 AM, Perkilator said:

Okay, expanding on my argument in the OP regarding Byleth, here's a post from Smashboards that describes my feelings perfextly:

"I never really understood the idea of all House Leaders from TH being shoved into the same character, the entire point of the game is that you have to pick a side, the only time they ever work together is in the opening map of the game, in the rest of it their relationships range from friendly rivalry to waging war on each other over differing ideologies. It's a particular issue with Edelgard and Dimitri, I don't think there's any way them teaming up could really be justified. To me the whole concept seems forced just for the sake of not having to pick one of the three, and I think it's fair enough to feel that way, but at that point Byleth is just the more logical option.

In general I highly doubt we're ever getting anything like Pokémon Trainer again, it taking the development of three unique characters really isn't ideal, there's little reason to push for it given the concept is already realized within the game, and when we're talking about DLC I'm not sure it's even possible given that the development team is scaled down and they have a very strict schedule to keep up with. On top of that I think Sakurai also views the transformation mechanic as being Pokémon Trainer's thing, it's pretty noteworthy that he kept Zelda/Shiek and Samus/ZSS separate, but still felt the need to combine Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard back together."

This user's words, not mine. Which supports my original point; either include all the House Leaders as separate characters, or include none of them and just use Byleth.

Here's the issue with that: it's Smash Bros. Pokémon Trainer has all three gen-1 starter Pokémon despite that being impossible in the main game. I'm sure there are ways to make a Three Houses Trainer and have it make sense. 

One that I can think of is that the students of the Church of Seiros (so pre-timeskip) have been invited to Smash Bros., and it's up to Byleth to prepare them. Not that great, but I'm sure that someone can come up with a better one, 

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On 12/17/2019 at 4:08 PM, Flere210 said:

Edit: i forgot that Samus may coubt as an FPS character.

Metroid Prime and it's sequels/Other M/Federation Force are officially First Person Adventure games. Also, earlier titles in the series (Metroid, Super, Fusion) are shown from the side view, not in a first-person perspective.

Edited by NinjaMonkey

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7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Pokémon Trainer has all three gen-1 starter Pokémon despite that being impossible in the main game.

Not really. Trading may require more hardware, but it's still a system deliberately built into the game and absolutely required to fully complete the game (without glitches). There's no way beyond hacking to get Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude on the same team (after the prologue).

I do agree with Perkilator, honestly. The idea of a PT-like Byleth setup feels less like something actually interesting and more like people not wanting to fight for just one of the house leaders - or Byleth.

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3 hours ago, Florete said:

Not really. Trading may require more hardware, but it's still a system deliberately built into the game and absolutely required to fully complete the game (without glitches). There's no way beyond hacking to get Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude on the same team (after the prologue).

You dont even need to trade if your playing yellow version, you can get them from in game npcs.

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Byleth the pokemon trainer is people wanting their cake and to eat it too. They are not going to add 4 fire emblem characters, and if they do the fandom will probably riot. The pokemon trainer is a way to make sure their prefered lord get in, because if they are going to pick just one chance are it will be [REDACTED] or Edelgard.

Edited by Flere210

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6 hours ago, Florete said:

Not really. Trading may require more hardware, but it's still a system deliberately built into the game and absolutely required to fully complete the game (without glitches). There's no way beyond hacking to get Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude on the same team (after the prologue).

I don't include trading when I say the main game, as that's going outside the game's world and collecting a Pokémon from a different game. The whole premise of the main-series Pokémon games is that you start by picking 1 of 3 starter Pokémon and, once you've picked, that's it; no way to get the other two without trading with other players. @lightcosmo Yellow is the exception, not the rule.

As for Three Houses, thanks for mentioning the prologue; yet another way to contextualize a PT-like Byleth setup. But it doesn't need that strong of contextualization since this is Smash Bros.

 

6 hours ago, Florete said:

I do agree with Perkilator, honestly. The idea of a PT-like Byleth setup feels less like something actually interesting and more like people not wanting to fight for just one of the house leaders - or Byleth.

And I disagree.

I don't want Byleth in Smash, but that's because he wouldn't provide anything new. Divine Pulse: fancy counter that would either be like Shulk's foresight or Bayonetta's… I can't remember what it's called, Sword of the Creator = Belmont morning-star whip, etc. And, if I had to choose just one house leader, I'd pick Edelgard in a heartbeat. But, I would rather have a Three Houses Trainer setup over just Edelgard; not because it's a compromise, but because I find it more interesting than just one house leader. There's a lot of potential for different unique trade-offs and risk-reward by having all three house leaders and the ability to swap between them. 

@Flere210 What I just said in the paragraph above counters your argument as well. It isn't just "people wanting to have their cake and eat it too"; I simply feel it's the option with the most interesting gameplay potential and that would best represent FE Three Houses. 

Edited by vanguard333

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People complaining about there being so many FE characters bothers me a lot. I wish there was more variety among them, Robin and Corrin feel the most unique. The rest all feel like Marth copies. Well, Ike does stand out too. One move similar to Roy and one Chrom, also the classic counter. I really wish they would've added someone like Hector or Ephraim.

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40 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

@Flere210 What I just said in the paragraph above counters your argument as well. It isn't just "people wanting to have their cake and eat it too"; I simply feel it's the option with the most interesting gameplay potential and that would best represent FE Three Houses. 

It is because you want them to sell you 3 characters at the price of 1. If they were included in the main game it could be a possibility, but in a DLC? No way.

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