In which FE game were armor knights at their most useful?

[Mjolnir]

I've recently played FE4, 5, and 16. In all three of those games, armor knights are a joke (I think in 4 they're almost literally a joke considering how ridiculous Arden's official art is). You can certainly use them for fun (I made Flayn as an armor knight for giggles in 3H), but they'll never actually be all that useful imo.

 

I've just started FE6 and thought "oho maybe here I can use them" due to the fact that many maps have choke points where you can in theory plop an armor and actually make use of them. But of course, as the game progresses there's an abundance of enemies with armor slayers. Which unlike horseslayers for knights who can just run away / easily reposition, armorslayers are a pain for armors because it can be difficult to run them away when they pop up.

 

It's been ages since I played FE 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14(Birthright) but IIRC armors were maybe more useful in FE7 and 8 than the others. But I'm not sure since I haven't played them since release and they were my first FE games so I didn't really know what I was doing back then and those games were really easy so you could probably get away with running whatever character you wanted without much penalty.

 

In your opinion, in which FE games have armors had the most utility? Have there been any where they were actually genuinely useful? Have there been any where you really "should" be running armors in order to have an optimal team?

 

Bonus question: what could be done to make armor units "must deploys" in future installments of the game? I love the concept of armor knights and I do sometimes use them in my "just messing around" playthoughs but ime they're just never really good for any kind of optimal playstyle. It'd be nice if we could get a version of them that was.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Mjolnir

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, Mjolnir said:

I've just started FE6 and thought "oho maybe here I can use them" due to the fact that many maps have choke points where you can in theory plop an armor and actually make use of them. But of course, as the game progresses there's an abundance of enemies with armor slayers. Which unlike horseslayers for knights who can just run away / easily reposition, armorslayers are a pain for armors because it can be difficult to run them away when they pop up.

I would say the bigger problem for armors in FE6 is that it's Horse Emblem. The maps are just too big for armors to keep up. That's ignoring the fact that all of the armors are pretty bad, especially Gwendolyn/Wendy.

[Mjolnir]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would say the bigger problem for armors in FE6 is that it's Horse Emblem. The maps are just too big for armors to keep up. That's ignoring the fact that all of the armors are pretty bad, especially Gwendolyn/Wendy.

Yes, this is certainly also a strike against them! But at least in FE6 they could in theory hitch rides with your cavalry to the front lines. I end up doing that with the other infantry quite often. So in theory if they had a use they could just be transported... But that's still a pain and less than optimal though, you are right about that!

 

Compare that to FE4 (which is Horse Emblem on steroids due to the ridiculously gargantuan maps) where they're really just stuck guarding the base because there's no hitching rides there and warp only sends you to an already conquered castle.

 

It's always struck me as odd that they keep including armors without really tweaking them to make them really useful. Useable, sure. Useful, though, just not so much imo...

[BrightBow]

Probably Gaiden, I'd imagine. The lower experience gain and lower growths mean their massive bulk is a lot more valuable then in the remake. And unlike in the remake, Res actually increases by promotion. So Armored Knights aren't any more vulnerable to magic then anyone else.

Of course the bad terrain on Celica's side ensures they are still a tough sell there. Not to mention she also has no access to Warp.

Edited December 18, 2019 by BrightBow

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Mjolnir said:

Yes, this is certainly also a strike against them! But at least in FE6 they could in theory hitch rides with your cavalry to the front lines. I end up doing that with the other infantry quite often. So in theory if they had a use they could just be transported... But that's still a pain and less than optimal though, you are right about that!

The problem is, other than Gwendolyn, who has much more problems than just the game's big maps, the armors are too big to be rescued by most units after promotion, particularly Barth. Of course, that's disregarding the fact that promoting an armor would have a huge opportunity cost, knowing that you'd have to deprive a better unit of a promotion... and THAT brings me to the shortage of promotion items in this game. All this makes me think that Binding Blade is one of the worst games for armors after Genealogy.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[BergelomeuSantos]

Well, as someone who always use Armor Knights (and even have runs dedicated to only armor knights), I can say that..there's no game where a Armor Knight is going to be at least a 'Top 3 Class' (maybe even 10). However, they have some perks in some games that might make you wanting to deploy them anyway. (By the way, I didn't finish FE1/2/3/15 at the moment I'm making this comment)

• In FE5, they're the only ones able to use lances (if promoted) while indoors. 
• FE7 has Oswin. That's about it for the Armor Knights. Oswin's a unit with good bases, high level, high weapon rank, joins early and has somewhat good growths.
• FE10 has somewhat good Generals (not looking at you, Meg) and the provoke skill (which can be used to lure enemies if you want), but the game also has Wyverns. Wyverns have the better movement, higher caps on every category that isn't resistance (yes, they also have a better defense cap), don't have the arrow weakness anymore and the playable ones have some pretty high availability. So..yeah, it's pretty hard to justify the use of the Armor Bois. Enemy Armor's have some pretty good stats (even on speed!), though.
• FE13/FE14? Armor's could be considered good units because of the Pair-Up mechanic (..but so do every other class). They can deliver some huge Defense (and Str?) bonus and get their mobility patched by a higher mobility unit. This allows them to be very useful for some maps, but their use should be considered situacional. And characters like Stahl can do their job pretty well too.

...Actually, I will just stop here. I was supposed to be showing 'good things' about Armors and I already criticized them more than I should.

Edited December 18, 2019 by BergelomeuSantos

[Flere210]

Guntz in shining force.

In Thracia armors are almost usefull because if the game did not have 3927927492917538 armorslayers(whose purpose is to be stealed by the player) they would be good at least in indoor maps.

In Radiant Dawn they are not great but not unusable either, with Tauroneo being the true Jeigan in DB part 3 and Gatrie being fairly decent.

Oswin is good but it's mostly him having good stats and fe7 having laughable speed benchmarks. 

Great knight promotion help them from SS onward but if you want to stick to generals the only one that stand out is Effie. 

To make them better there are many thing to consider:

1) they have 3 different weaknesses(low speed low res, armorslayers existing) for 1 strenght(high defence. They should stop overvaluing defence and give them fair advantages and disadvantages.

2)the map design is almost always based on getting objectives that are far away such as villages, chests, thieves and so on. Having more maps that focus on holding the line or protecting NPCs would be better for them.

3)even if 2 would happen, mobility is still the best stats and should weight heavily on the BST. It's infurieting when you try to reclass a paladin into something else and they lose bst on top of movement and weapon ranks.  I am convinced that they want paladins to be the best class because any attempt of balance has been half assed as hell.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Flere210

[Alastor15243]

If we're counting spinoffs? Heroes. In Fire Emblem Heroes, armors are some of the best units in the game, because the fact that they can't keep up can be made irrelevant, and they have the highest BSTs of any units in the game. Plus, there are a bunch of armor-unique skills that let them turn speed into essentially a dump stat by letting them double no matter how terrible their speed is.

[Shadow Mir]

I would say Fates, because the nerf to dodgetanking means that high concrete durability is more welcome than before.

[Gregster101]

Probably Radiant Dawn or Fates

[Mjolnir]

57 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Probably Gaiden, I'd imagine. The lower experience gain and lower growths mean their massive bulk is a lot more valuable then in the remake. And unlike in the remake, Res actually increases by promotion. So Armored Knights aren't any more vulnerable to magic then anyone else.

Of course the bad terrain on Celica's side ensures they are still a tough sell there. Not to mention she also has no access to Warp.

Oh yeah that sounds like a contender for most useful. TBH I haven't played either 2 or 15 yet but it's already sad to me that they nerfed the rest gain in the remake.

 

57 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem is, other than Gwendolyn, who has much more problems than just the game's big maps, the armors are too big to be rescued by most units after promotion, particularly Barth. Of course, that's disregarding the fact that promoting an armor would have a huge opportunity cost, knowing that you'd have to deprive a better unit of a promotion... and THAT brings me to the shortage of promotion items in this game. All this makes me think that Binding Blade is one of the worst games for armors after Genealogy.

Oh yeah, Wendy is a special kind of bad that is true. Ahhh, I haven't actually promoted any armors (for some odd reason 😉 ) so I didn't realize they got too big to be carted around. Well, yes, that seals it you're right: BB is extremely bad for them.

 

48 minutes ago, BergelomeuSantos said:

Well, as someone who always use Armor Knights (and even have runs dedicated to only armor knights), I can say that..there's no game where a Armor Knight is going to be at least a 'Top 3 Class' (maybe even 10). However, they have some perks in some games that might make you wanting to deploy them anyway. (By the way, I didn't finish FE1/2/3/15 at the moment I'm making this comment)

• In FE5, they're the only ones able to use lances (if promoted) while indoors. 
• FE7 has Oswin. That's about it for the Armor Knights. Oswin's a unit with good bases, high level, high weapon rank, joins early and has somewhat good growths.
• FE10 has somewhat good Generals (not looking at you, Meg) and the provoke skill (which can be used to lure enemies if you want), but the game also has Wyverns. Wyverns have the better movement, higher caps on every category that isn't resistance (yes, they also have a better defense cap), don't have the arrow weakness anymore and the playable ones have some pretty high availability. So..yeah, it's pretty hard to justify the use of the Armor Bois. Enemy Armor's have some pretty good stats (even on speed!), though.
• FE13/FE14? Armor's could be considered good units because of the Pair-Up mechanic (..but so do every other class). They can deliver some huge Defense (and Str?) bonus and get their mobility patched by a higher mobility unit. This allows them to be very useful for some maps, but their use should be considered situacional. And characters like Stahl can do their job pretty well too.

...Actually, I will just stop here. I was supposed to be showing 'good things' about Armors and I already criticized them more than I should.

Ha, all armor knight runs sound fun! I also like using them for fun sometimes, they have a certain charisma to them. But yeah, haha, like you when I try to think of genuine optimal playstyle advantages I also come up short.Agreed on Oswin, but let's be serious if he were any other class with those stats and growths he'd be better. I did use Gaitre in at least one playthrough of FE10 since he's just sort of fun, but again that was not a 'serious' run, but more just for fun. I agree that the  Pair-Up mechanic gives them them some use. I really hope we'll get a game one day where it's optimal to use them, instead of just fun because they add variety.

36 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Guntz in shining force.

In Thracia armors are almost usefull because if the game did not have 3927927492917538 armorslayers(whose purpose is to be stealed by the player) they would be good at least in indoor maps.

In Radiant Dawn they are not great but not unusable either, with Tauroneo being the true Jeigan in DB part 3 and Gatrie being fairly decent.

Oswin is good but it's mostly him having good stats and fe7 having laughable speed benchmarks. 

Great knight promotion help them from SS onward but if you want to stick to generals the only one that stand out is Effie. 

To make them better there are many thing to consider:

1) they have 3 different weaknesses(low speed low res, armorslayers existing) for 1 strenght(high defence. They should stop overvaluing defence and give them fair advantages and disadvantages.

2)the map design is almost always based on getting objectives that are far away such as villages, chests, thieves and so on. Having more maps that focus on holding the line or protecting NPCs would be better for them.

3)even if 2 would happen, mobility is still the best stats and should weight heavily on the BST. It's infurieting when you try to reclass a paladin into something else and they lose bst on top of movement and weapon ranks.  I am convinced that they want paladins to be the best class because any attempt of balance has been half assed as hell.

Excellent points all around! It's interesting to think about their major strengths and weaknesses as you did: 3 major weaknesses vs. 1 major str. It seems like it would be a good think to increase their res to make them into true tanks. Maybe keep the slayer weapons but also integrate a game mechanic that allows the player to steal those weapons with a good enough thief like in 776? It's true that mobility is the best stat. I guess 3H tried to address this downside to armors with Great Knight, but its mobility is still less than other mounted units. Maybe it would make sense to make them as mobile as other mounted units in a future game?

32 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

If we're counting spinoffs? Heroes. In Fire Emblem Heroes, armors are some of the best units in the game, because the fact that they can't keep up can be made irrelevant, and they have the highest BSTs of any units in the game. Plus, there are a bunch of armor-unique skills that let them turn speed into essentially a dump stat by letting them double no matter how terrible their speed is.

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm a bit more interested in opinions in how the mainline series compare to each other. That said, thank you for sharing anyway since it's interesting to learn that Heroes lets them shine. I guess it shows it can be done!

[Dark Holy Elf]

I honestly still find them pretty poor in Heroes, 1 move is just so terrible in a lot of the harder content (yes, I know they can hit 2 with buffs). IMO they got overrated because their high BST was useful for scoring high in arena (and arena was so easy even a terrible team like Draug/Gwendolyn/Sheena could win), but that doesn't really say that much that's good about them as units. I used to think maybe their unique B skills made them comparable to infantry but then infantry started getting better B skills and higher stats too so these days I think armours are definitely the worst movement type again.

Beyond that...

FE4: Joke.

FE6-8: Armours are pretty bad. Oswin is the exception, but he's good because he's Oswin (Level 9 with solid bases at the second chapter), not because he's an armour. Bors is kinda palatable for a while with his monstrous 11 base def, but not great. The other GBA armours are terrible.

FE9: This game made paladins way too tanky on top of them having canto, which renders armours a joke since they don't have a niche.

FE10: Armours are actually pretty solid here since for once they, on aggregate, actually have good non-move stats overall (i.e. their speed isn't trash). Obviously not as good as wyverns, but definitely one of the best showings.

FE11-12: I seem to recall some maps might occasionally give some use to class-changing into one since class-changing was so easy, for all that these games had reasonably big open maps so you wouldn't want to stay in one often.

FE13-14: Pair Up makes armours non-terrible both because they can grant their str/def to another unit and also because they can pair up with a mobile unit such as a flier, let that unit move, then you can switch to the armour to hold a chokepoint and/or deal with a formation of enemies which includes archers. They're once again back to having bad speed though so there's a limit to how much I want to hype them.

FE15: By far the worst of the classes. The other normally problematic classes like archer and sword infantry get perks as the game goes on, armours stay a slow melee 4 move forever.

FE16: Yeah they're pretty terrible here. The game seems to think that giving them a little more def than other classes is worth giving up str/spd/move in a game with no rescue/pair up. At least Armour is a good skill to raise to C though.

[Shadow Mir]

32 minutes ago, Mjolnir said:

I guess 3H tried to address this downside to armors with Great Knight, but its mobility is still less than other mounted units.

The problem is that Great Knight requires Riding and Heavy Armor (and at that, is the only class that needs two non-weapon proficiencies to class into). This makes it rather hard to class into (to put things into perspective, the only units who are strong in both are Ferdinand and Gilbert -  and the former requires several tutoring sessions before Heavy Armor becomes a strength, whilst the latter is only usable on one route).

Edited December 18, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Interdimensional Observer]

Because it hasn't been spoken of yet, FE3 is pretty bad for Armors yet again.

• Draug has earlygame use in both Books 1&2 for his high Def. But his dirt Def growth combined with other units gaining sufficient durability over time meant he wanes as the game progresses.
• Book 2 furthermore has dragon breath negating your Def, making Draug's one good point meaningless. Which is undermined by everyone being able to have good Def via that 40% Def growth boosting Cancer Star Shard.
• Lorenz and Sheena are both rather bad, even if Lorenz when Warped can almost solo Michalis's chapter with Gradvius and the Star and Light -spheres.
• Armor Knights being the only ones to use Gradivus indoors b/c dismounting does little to help Armors. Being locked to nothing but Lances hurts them, because Javelins aren't very useful with their 20 Wt, and the weapon type on the whole being heavier than Swords means Draug can't double for a long while. Book 2 has yet another problem for Lances- no Dragonpikes exist, Archers can shoot Wyverns down, Mages can sling a lot of effective magics, and Swords have Wyrmslayers to slay everything, Draug has no good way of fighting any dragons.

 

TearRing Saga, to contribute on that spiritual FE, did not do a good job with Armors either.

• Norton has a bad start, but promote him ASAP and you'll have a good and mobile Great Knight on outdoors maps.
• Billford and Zachariah though are stuck being Generals, which does them little good, although Zachariah has solid bases.
• Tomas and Hagar exist as Artillerymen, but other than Tomas and Arena grinding, 3 Move means these things are getting nowhere in serious play. Bowlocked means they don't exactly enemy-phase either. The best tank in this game is Rishel and Sunflame I can half-seriously say.

 

And though I'm waiting on Berwick Saga's translation to be finished, I'm aware Derrick the lone true Armor Knight is considered the game's joke unit. Although Daoud and Marcel, who seem Armor-ish, don't fare so badly I think, more so Daoud.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

FE11-12: I seem to recall some maps might occasionally give some use to class-changing into one since class-changing was so easy, for all that these games had reasonably big open maps so you wouldn't want to stay in one often.

And Wolf/Sedgar as Generals doing some chokepointing isn't a bad way to handle the harder difficulties of FE11 if you're going slow. At until the very end when Manaketes start having more than 24 Spd, which is like the third/second to last fight.

As for FE12, I think a dip in General is workable on Hard for parts of the game. And Lunatic makes room for General too, but only in the short-term, its terrible Spd might make very very bad later though.

 

3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

In Thracia armors are almost usefull because if the game did not have 3927927492917538 armorslayers(whose purpose is to be stealed by the player) they would be good at least in indoor maps.

Are you sure IS just wasn't afraid of Dalsin? 😛

I almost think there are as many Hammers as Iron Axes in this game.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

In FE10 mainly because mages - their biggest threat - were nerfed in speed.

Knights became fast and mages slow, so slow that most cannot doubleattack them.

 

 

[Zihark11]

Best Knights were in FE9 and FE 10. i dont really see myself using any outside of those games. Awakening and Fates any character can be good cause of grinding so they dont really count. Gatrie was overall the best while Brom had the highest defense. Taurneao was always a pre promote so he in the long run he was weaker then the rest but still had lots of good uses. Meg i havent used more then 5 times tbh as i just didint like her but what she lack in power makes up for in her other stats in my experience. 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Brom is the best. That's all anyone needs to know, really!

But really as a whole I think I'd have to give it to Awakening. Everyone can be so good there.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

If we're counting the skills they get (cough Wary Fighter cough), then Fates by a landslide. Being undouble-able makes enemy Generals actually tough to take down. Benny likes it too, while Effie rocks due to her personal. Giving defense boosts as a statpack can be nice, too.

They're fairly strong in Radiant Dawn, too, where they're about on-par with mages, speed-wise (well, Brom isn't). Tauroneo is a solid crutch for the Dawn Brigade, and Killer Axe Gatrie is a good unit in his own right. Meg sucks, but she's cute, so it's all good.

Edit: How to make Armors better? If a future game features a lot of debuffs, a la Fates, then Armors should be immune to all enemy-inflicted debuffs, full stop. Take that, Ninja Cave. Keep them slow with low move, though, those are the hallmarks of the class.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Added last paragraph.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Of the game's I've played in recent years, I'd rate armor knight viability something like

• Conquest
• Three Houses
• Radiant Dawn
• Echoes
• FE9
• FE7
• FE8
• FE1 

And I guess in Heroes they're monsters since they have like 20% more stats than horses in a game with no dump stats like Luck or dex.

For Three Houses they're pretty worthless for casual play, but they can still kick ass in maddening mode as evidenced by Mangs' latest episode where in he spams a relic more than he needs to with Hilda and also forgets Retribution when he warps her into the fray. Defense is such a worthwhile stat in that mode, and guard adjutants make for a Wary Fighter lite mixed with a 100% chance miracle. It's also worth mentioning how insane the armor knight's base defense of 12 is for a level 10 character. Even if you never field an armor knight in three houses, a player is likely to still make use of the class in that way.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Glennstavos

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

For Three Houses they're pretty worthless for casual play, but they can still kick ass in maddening mode as evidenced by Mangs' latest episode where in he spams a relic more than he needs to with Hilda and also forgets Retribution when he warps her into the fray. Defense is such a worthwhile stat in that mode, and guard adjutants make for a Wary Fighter lite mixed with a 100% chance miracle. It's also worth mentioning how insane the armor knight's base defense of 12 is for a level 10 character. Even if you never field an armor knight in three houses, a player is likely to still make use of the class in that way.

What's funny is, Armor and the Armor Knight offer you a lot if great things in 3 Houses... except actually being an armor knight on the field. Bumping up to 30 HP and 12 Def through the certification, being a guard adjutant, and getting skills like Weight-3 and Smite, all great. But you can get those things without actually fielding anyone as an armor knight (which means poor movement, speed, and no spells), aside from as an aforementioned adjutant. I appreciate the weird kind of balance there.

[henrymidfields]

Effie in Conquest is actually good, with her ridiculous defense and Wary Fighter. It also helps that generally smaller maps mitigates disadvantages with less movement, Pair Ups give them utility, and Attack Stances allow easier opportunities to feed them needed EXPs.

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/18/2019 at 11:15 AM, Zihark11 said:

Best Knights were in FE9 and FE 10. i dont really see myself using any outside of those games. Awakening and Fates any character can be good cause of grinding so they dont really count. Gatrie was overall the best while Brom had the highest defense. Taurneao was always a pre promote so he in the long run he was weaker then the rest but still had lots of good uses. Meg i havent used more then 5 times tbh as i just didint like her but what she lack in power makes up for in her other stats in my experience. 

Bold:I dunno about that - her high speed is compromised by her shitty cap (she has only a 22 cap in second tier), and she's also lacking in defense, aka the one stat that an armor should specialize in... and that's ignoring that she's underleveled to the point it's not worth it.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[AnonymousSpeed]

I'll throw another hat in the ring for Conquest.

At the very least for Effie, I haven't used Benny yet. Effie has enough strength to deal significant damage despite her not doubling, and the higher quality enemies in this game mean that your fast units aren't always doubling and aren't always doing more damage in two hits than Effie does in one.

Pair Up means she can get to the front faster, and Shield Gauge makes her even more survivable.

She has enough defense to walk out of a swarm of physical enemies with just a few scratches, so even without Wary Fighter she isn't a sitting duck. That said, her resistance is at the right level for her to survive magic attacks without trivializing that drawback.

Conquest also has a lot of chokepoints for armors to hold, the enemies are spread out in such a way that you can control how many physical / magical foes can attack them.
There's a lot of instances where enemies attack you from behind in Conquest, so having a low move unit to hold up the rear and block physical reinforcements from attacking your main group is actually useful.

On 12/18/2019 at 2:03 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Edit: How to make Armors better? If a future game features a lot of debuffs, a la Fates, then Armors should be immune to all enemy-inflicted debuffs, full stop. Take that, Ninja Cave. Keep them slow with low move, though, those are the hallmarks of the class.

I actually quite like this idea.

As we've established with points like this:

On 12/18/2019 at 9:29 AM, Mjolnir said:

Agreed on Oswin, but let's be serious if he were any other class with those stats and growths he'd be better.

There has never been an advantage to being an armored unit, it's only ever been a strict disadvantage. Mounted units get high movement and canto, but armors get...good stats (theoretically). You don't have to be an armored unit to have good stats though.

Immunity to debuffs, or some other advantage which is exclusive to armors*, is what the classes really need.

*- Perhaps a passive field that reduces damage taken by nearby allies, though debuff immunity seems more interesting, less like a personal skill or flat stat boost and more like Canto is, a skill unique to the unit type. Plenty of times in Conquest such an immunity would have been useful.

***

Let's talk about stats for a second.

On 12/18/2019 at 8:35 AM, Flere210 said:

hey should stop overvaluing defence and give them fair advantages and disadvantages.

I'd say armored units undervalue defense in a lot of instances. Bath, a very armor-y armor knight, has 14 base defense and a terribly unimpressive 40% growth rate. He just takes too much damage, even from physical enemies, to be an effective tank.

Low speed, as Shanty Pete's 1st Made said, is part of the design of armor knights and should be kept. Wary Fighter, which just ignores the issue, makes for a fairly lame and inelegant solution.

Armors shouldn't have too much resistance, because then they lack meaningful weaknesses, but enough resistance and HP to survive getting doubled by a mage at least.

[Flere210]

20 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

There has never been an advantage to being an armored unit, it's only ever been a strict disadvantage. Mounted units get high movement and canto, but armors get...good stats (theoretically). You don't have to be an armored unit to have good stats though.

Immunity to debuffs, or some other advantage which is exclusive to armors*, is what the classes really need.

*- Perhaps a passive field that reduces damage taken by nearby allies, though debuff immunity seems more interesting, less like a personal skill or flat stat boost and more like Canto is, a skill unique to the unit type. Plenty of times in Conquest such an immunity would have been useful.

***

Let's talk about stats for a second.

I'd say armored units undervalue defense in a lot of instances. Bath, a very armor-y armor knight, has 14 base defense and a terribly unimpressive 40% growth rate. He just takes too much damage, even from physical enemies, to be an effective tank.

Low speed, as Shanty Pete's 1st Made said, is part of the design of armor knights and should be kept. Wary Fighter, which just ignores the issue, makes for a fairly lame and inelegant solution.

Armors shouldn't have too much resistance, because then they lack meaningful weaknesses, but enough resistance and HP to survive getting doubled by a mage at least.

I say overvalued in the sense that IntSys think 14+40% is already super high because they don't want the unit to reach the "no damage" threshold. They think a point of defense is better than a point of strenght or speed so the bases and growths are lower across the board. Imo this is solved by simply bringing back the minimum of 1 damage from the snes era.

Also, i think there is no problem whit a strictly worse movement type, as long as stats are used to balance movement type, wich is only really done in Heroes(hell, every time i try to reclass a cavalier/paladin to an infranty class i get triggered because the BST fucking drop). Also, i think they should pick one between speed and resistance, because you can't really have higher bst than other classes if 2 of your stats are supposed to be very low. Or you can, but any armor has to have High str,skl,hp,luck, and def to compensate, wich leave little room to diversify them. 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Flere210

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 12/23/2019 at 5:05 PM, Flere210 said:

Imo this is solved by simply bringing back the minimum of 1 damage from the snes era.

 

I must disagree- even if an armor knight took 0 damage from all physical attackers, their weakness to mages and effective weapons would be enough to keep their power in check.

On 12/23/2019 at 5:05 PM, Flere210 said:

Also, i think there is no problem whit a strictly worse movement type, as long as stats are used to balance movement type

It still seems a bit lame, especially given that there are plenty of bulky units who don't have 4 movement.

On 12/23/2019 at 5:05 PM, Flere210 said:

Also, i think they should pick one between speed and resistance, because you can't really have higher bst than other classes if 2 of your stats are supposed to be very low. Or you can, but any armor has to have High str,skl,hp,luck, and def to compensate, wich leave little room to diversify them. 

I wouldn't say they need to have low resistance. Average would be perfectly fine. I don't think they should excel in both physical and magical defense, though.