In which FE game were armor knights at their most useful?

[Flere210]

6 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

 

I must disagree- even if an armor knight took 0 damage from all physical attackers, their weakness to mages and effective weapons would be enough to keep their power in check.

Many maps don't have mages or effective weaponry,  and if you put hammers in every map it's Thracia all over again.

6 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

It still seems a bit lame, especially given that there are plenty of bulky units who don't have 4 movement.

Let's just say that i believe in the DOTA 2 kind of balance where everybody gets broken stuff and crippling weaknesses to compensate so everyone need teammatea. I find it much more interesting than trying to make everything "balanced" by equalizing.

[Emperor Hardin]

To answer the question raised in the title, FE11 and FE12 are the best they've been in a mainline title, being the preferred class for an Avatar in the latter. However they are mainly a utility class rather then something you want to be in 24/7. There's also Fates, they're high tier in multiplayer at the very least from what I remember.

On 12/18/2019 at 5:35 AM, Flere210 said:

• Lorenz and Sheena are both rather bad, even if Lorenz when Warped can almost solo Michalis's chapter with Gradvius and the Star and Light -spheres.

Lorenz is actually quite good unlike the other FE1/FE3 armored units, his base stats are strong enough to kill Medeus with the Gradivus, in 0% runs he is the MVP. He is around mid tier.

On 12/18/2019 at 5:35 AM, Flere210 said:

In Thracia armors are almost usefull because if the game did not have 3927927492917538 armorslayers(whose purpose is to be stealed by the player) they would be good at least in indoor maps.

That isn't entirely correct, whilst Dalshin is only useful for the prison escape, Xavier is considered a good unit on tier lists due to the power of his weapon ranks, skills and sheer bulk. For reference, he is the only unit able to use the Hero bow at base and his base stats allow him to ORKO Elf, the most dangerous Dark Warlord/Deadlord.

The hammer isn't that a big of a deal for Xavier as effective damage is lowered in Thracia . 

On 12/18/2019 at 5:35 AM, Flere210 said:

• Billford and Zachariah though are stuck being Generals, which does them little good, although Zachariah has solid bases.

Zachariah has monstrously high HP and good stats, so he has his uses similar to Lorenz without the Gradivus.

Supposedly Billford is very helpful in 0% growth runs thanks to a strategy against the boss, Barabossa. Otherwise he's mainly there for the meme of a 12 movement armor.

On 12/18/2019 at 6:58 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

FE11-12: I seem to recall some maps might occasionally give some use to class-changing into one since class-changing was so easy, for all that these games had reasonably big open maps so you wouldn't want to stay in one often.

That is correct. Many maps encourage tanking, Generals have massive base stats and incredible class growths which also work with few characters having personal growths with very high speed and low defense.

On 12/18/2019 at 5:35 AM, Flere210 said:

And though I'm waiting on Berwick Saga's translation to be finished, I'm aware Derrick the lone true Armor Knight is considered the game's joke unit. Although Daoud and Marcel, who seem Armor-ish, don't fare so badly I think, more so Daoud.

Marcel is an armor in all but name, even having armored movement and animating one. I've heard Marcel isn't among the top units, but he's workable, especially if you capture enemy armored units to take their large shields. He also gets a powerful personal weapon.  Most interestingly Marcel's movement of 3, the same for armored units, automatically becomes 4 after he reaches a certain level.

This could be a very good idea to implement in FE in my opinion.

I've also heard many good things about the armored units in Vestaria and its Gaiden.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Eltosian Kadath]

Hmmm... I think I will go through them in order

FE4 - embarrassingly bad. The only good thing about armors is Arden being needed to get the pursuit ring...

FE5 - things are desperate enough in the Manster escape arc that Dalshin can see some use, and Xavier is one of the best filler units if you get him, but neither are spectacular and hammers are more common than most games.

FE6 - I like triangle attacks, and in a game with terrible accuracy a 100 accurate 100 critical hit is rather appealing, but outside that gimmick they are awful, and with their move you usually need crafty rescue or dancer strats to make it effective.

FE7 - Oswin being a bit ahead of the level curve lets him be rather useful in the early game (of Eliwood/Hector mode), but otherwise fairly meh.

FE8 - I have never felt the need to bother with Gilliam, and General Amelia is literally a joke...

FE9 - With how horse emblem this game is I am penciling in a meh, Taurneo has the benefit of starting with Resolve, but you want to save the Wrath scroll for either Ena or Ike to Wrath Resolve Ashnard.

FE10 - I seem to remember Armors having good stat caps in a game where that matters, but Meg is a joke, and both Brom and Taurneo are both on the lower end of availability, although Gatrie doesn't have that problem. I have never bother with them, but on paper they are solid, if you put in the effort.

FE11 - You can break most of this game with General Wolf/Sedgar, but other than that they are terrible. Being situationally game breakingly good is still probably the high point for armors.

FE12 - I seem to remember a few levels of General on Chris (or possibly others) to shore up their Defense being a great idea, but it isn't a long term class as you want to class change out of it for the speed needed to deal with late-game threats, but it still has some short term use.

FE13 - I seem to remember them being alright, but on the higher difficulties you really need to reach game breaking status, so if we grade them on a curve they come out OKish at best.

FE14 - Legitimately good, they get class skills that benefit their class, those that start with it are great (Effie personal let her get great damage potential, and in Great Knight gets respectable speed and massive strength, and her high single hit damage makes her a great attack stance partner, Benny on the other hand has an excellent supportive personal skill, and his personal growths and bases makes him an amazing general) and the pairup, separate, and transfer mechanics let them mitigate their low movement.

FE15 - Fairly terrible, Lukas is good when compared to villagers, and armors aren't far behind others movement wise until a couple of promotions in, but once they start falling off, they fall off fast and dramatically.

FE16 - Much like FE12 they are a good thing to pass for their bases (jumping up to 12 defense at level 10 for only a little effort is nice on a lot of otherwise squishy units) and the weight -3 skill, but it isn't what you want long term.

 

[eclipse]

Armors need to have better caps, in a way that matters.  RD is an example of this, with Paladin caps being questionable (now if they'd extended it to flying units, it would've been a lot better).

[Emperor Hardin]

I just realized I forgot to cover Hector for some reason. He is another extremely good armored unit, though starting out with normal infantry movement is a major point in his favor.

The movement stat in Fire Emblem is so integral that the series really needs to try to balance armored units to even out this major weakness. Armored units really need a canto of some sort. I've seen provoke, adjacent buffs, defensive skills and such suggested as their canto. And as mentioned before, there needs to be a moment taken from Berwick Saga and Heroes of giving armored units some sort of way to increase their movement even if temporarily.

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

FE4 - embarrassingly bad. The only good thing about armors is Arden being needed to get the pursuit ring...

I just remembered that Hannibal is very good at guarding the player's castle in his recruitment chapter. Too bad that is the only moment in all of FE4 where defending the player's castle is at all used..

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

FE11 - You can break most of this game with General Wolf/Sedgar, but other than that they are terrible. Being situationally game breakingly good is still probably the high point for armors.

They aren't terrible, its just the default armored units outside of Dolph who comes in late, haven't had their growths updated to suit their class.

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

 I seem to remember a few levels of General on Chris (or possibly others) to shore up their Defense being a great idea, but it isn't a long term class as you want to class change out of it for the speed needed to deal with late-game threats, but it still has some short term use.

To be fair, early to mid game is arguably the most difficult part of any Fire Emblem game so being good in that portion is nothing to sneeze at. Outside of that, you are correct that isn't a long term. Still you're never going to get high defense as a Paladin or DracoKnight without RNG Abusing unless you level as an armored class.

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I seem to remember them being alright, but on the higher difficulties you really need to reach game breaking status, so if we grade them on a curve they come out OKish at best.

Naw, they stink there too and they look like crap.

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I seem to remember them being alright, but on the higher difficulties you really need to reach game breaking status, so if we grade them on a curve they come out OKish at best.

They're actually significantly worse then the original NES game.

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Much like FE12 they are a good thing to pass for their bases (jumping up to 12 defense at level 10 for only a little effort is nice on a lot of otherwise squishy units) and the weight -3 skill, but it isn't what you want long term.

Unlike FE11 and FE12, they aren't a good class to level in.

On 12/18/2019 at 5:35 AM, Flere210 said:

Guntz in shining force.

I forgot to ask, does Guntz have low movement and what makes him good?

[Flere210]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I forgot to ask, does Guntz have low movement and what makes him good?

Yes, he has significantly less movement compared to an OP semi-hidden unit.

That said, there are quite a few things going for him:

1)higher stats than usual in a way that don't make him overspecialized

2)ability to ignore terrain in a game whit maps that are 100% terrain(this could be replicated whit things like ledges).

3) there is a move increasing ring that can be traded around

4)plains increase defense by 15% and forests by 30%. This both means high defense is more valuable, and that flyers miss an important bonus and are either very frail or are tanky but deal no damage

5) damage is in general higher, because there is no permadeath. In particular, certain bosses oneshot 90% of your party no matter what, wich makes the one guy that can take an hit from everything valuable.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Flere210

[Emperor Hardin]

9 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Yes, he has significantly less movement compared to an OP semi-hidden unit.

That said, there are quite a few things going for him:

1)higher stats than usual in a way that don't make him overspecialized

2)ability to ignore terrain in a game whit maps that are 100% terrain(this could be replicated whit things like ledges).

3) there is a move increasing ring that can be traded around

4)plains increase defense by 15% and forests by 30%. This both means high defense is more valuable, and that flyers miss an important bonus and are either very frail or are tanky but deal no damage

5) damage is in general higher, because there is no permadeath. In particular, certain bosses oneshot 90% of your party no matter what, wich makes the one guy that can take an hit from everything valuable.

That really reminds me how terrain in Fire Emblem should be an advantage for Armored units, yet instead it is always a disadvantage instead with armored units being unable to cross certain tiles or taking reduced movement, crippling their already low movement down to absurd levels. I can't think of even one time in FE where being an armored unit has provided any terrain advantages and that is bad. The most I can think of is in FE2 all non flying units getting 1 movement in desert chapters meaning all non flying units move at the same pace as armored units. But that still isn't an advantage.

Also the movement ring really should not been removed from Echoes: Shadows of Valentia.

Finally if Berwick Saga still interests you, the only thing Marcel not being an armored unit effects, is his terrain.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Alastor15243]

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That really reminds me how terrain in Fire Emblem should be an advantage for Armored units, yet instead it is always a disadvantage instead with armored units being unable to cross certain tiles or taking reduced movement, crippling their already low movement down to absurd levels. I can't think of even one time in FE where being an armored unit has provided any terrain advantages and that is bad. The most I can think of is in FE2 all non flying units getting 1 movement in desert chapters meaning all non flying units move at the same pace as armored units. But that still isn't an advantage.

In Heroes, funny enough, armor units only have 1 mov instead of 2 or 3, but can cross anything foot units can without penalty. This actually makes them pretty mobile if you give them movement buffs.

[whase]

I had heard Armor Knights in FE11 were broken, but reading this topic I guess I heard wrong. Personally I never use armored units, too slow in both movement and stat, not my style.

Speaking of balancing, here I go talking about my homemade FExDnD crossover again. In my current version I have no classes, instead a character can "buy" ranks in armor and/or shields, think weapon ranks. Armor gives a huge boost in protection and a small boost in critical dodge, but lower movement by 1 and avoid by a lot. Shields give skills like wary fighter and a small boost in both protection and resilience, but cost you a bunch of attack speed. When a character invests in both armor and shields, and they focus their stats in their defenses as well, they can become literal walls, anything that doesn't focus solely on damage output won't leave a dent, except for the minimum 1 damage per hit. (Wary fighter might be a bit too strong at 50% though, might have to fix that.)

After this it's just map design, too many chokepoints and tanks become OP, too many open maps and all enemies will simply ignore and walk past them in favor of juicier targets.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Honestly I find Dalshin and Xavier really useful unless the enemy has an armor effective weapon.

Dalshin is great in carrying through Manster and Xavier has an amazing skill set.

Though I have to admit they are only good because enemies have poor stats in FE5 and generic caps exist, so they even can cap speed without problems.

 

 

[Emperor Hardin]

7 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

In Heroes, funny enough, armor units only have 1 mov instead of 2 or 3, but can cross anything foot units can without penalty. This actually makes them pretty mobile if you give them movement buffs.

The idea of them not being slowed by forests is brilliant and I hope it eventually makes into FE. There are also skills like armored march to increase their movement. 

I'm hoping regular FE implements the armored buffs, but I don't have my hopes up.

4 hours ago, whase said:

I had heard Armor Knights in FE11 were broken, but reading this topic I guess I heard wrong. Personally I never use armored units, too slow in both movement and stat, not my style.

General Wolf and Sedgar are indeed broken due to their personal bases & growths creating an incredibly powerful early game unit when combined with the very high class bases & growths of a General. So your first impression wasn't wrong.

4 hours ago, whase said:

Shields give skills like wary fighter and a small boost in both protection and resilience, but cost you a bunch of attack speed. When a character invests in both armor and shields, and they focus their stats in their defenses as well, they can become literal walls, anything that doesn't focus solely on damage output won't leave a dent, except for the minimum 1 damage per hit. (Wary fighter might be a bit too strong at 50% though, might have to fix that.)

Shields are a thing in Berwick Saga and add defense but are often heavy. Unequipping can increase attack speed. 

There are three types of shields each with more weight and defense then the last.

1. Light Shields: Used by unpromoted cavalry and Wyvern Riders.
2. Medium Shields: Used by the tankier promoted cavalry classes as well as the Axe Guard class.
3. Large Shields: Exclusively used by armored units.

Almost all anti armor weapon is instead anti shield in Berwick Saga. However armored movement, unit type and one anti armor weapon are still a thing.

4 hours ago, Falcom Knight said:

Honestly I find Dalshin and Xavier really useful unless the enemy has an armor effective weapon.

Dalshin is great in carrying through Manster and Xavier has an amazing skill set.

Though I have to admit they are only good because enemies have poor stats in FE5 and generic caps exist, so they even can cap speed without problems.

Dalshin is situationally useful from my experience. Xavier is really good for his skills, powerful base stats and maximum bow ranks in a game where every other unit has terrible bow ranks in a game where weapon exp takes forever to level.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Emperor Hardin

[Book Bro]

I hardly ever use Armour Knights. The only ones I like using are Gatrie, Effie, and Lukas. And for Lukas I see it as a downgrade tbh. Edelgard and Hector are obviously exceptional but that's because they're armoured lords, not normal units.

I guess the best game for them is Fates? Because their movement limitation can be easily remedied with Pair Up and defense is a good stat to have/boost.

[Flere210]

Ignoring terrain was guntz main argument for equipping the mov ring, but i don't think it fits FE armor knight. He was using a steampunk power armor, it make no sense for an heavily armored guy to walk better than unarmored guys in the forest.

[Alexbond]

I almost never use Armored Knights. I have experimented with them 3H in using the DLC movement boosters (Fretters + the shoes that give +2 Mvt) to make a move 7 unit with Canto. Makes them a lot deadlier. It was a bit of a meme because I'd rather stick these buffs on a bishop to keep their healing or dump them on Edelgard for the supermemes. Their res + speed growth keeps them from being real useful on the front as well in my mind. 

In other games they're simply too slow. Like seriously sometimes they're even slower than healers who already feel slow as molasses. 

[Emperor Hardin]

8 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Ignoring terrain was guntz main argument for equipping the mov ring, but i don't think it fits FE armor knight. He was using a steampunk power armor, it make no sense for an heavily armored guy to walk better than unarmored guys in the forest.

I'm aware Gunt is an armadillo in armor fitting in with Shining Force being more fantastical then FE, but armored units traveling well over certain terrain such as forests is no more unrealistic then magic users and priests walking faster in the desert or people not being able to unequip armor.

Heroes even does exactly that, making armored units not slowed in forests unlike infantry.

[vanguard333]

I can only speak for the games that I played (Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn, Shadow Dragon, Awakening, Fates, Echoes, and Three Houses: Crimson Flower).

Of those, I think they were at their most useful in Path of Radiance, simply because there were more maps in which they could shine: the ship chapters, the defence chapters, indoor chapters with lots of chokepoints, etc. Another reason is the Knight Ring, which boosts both defences by 2 and increases speed growth massively; I always give it to one of my armour knights, usually Gatrie, because it means they actually have a speed growth. 

[Slumber]

Radiant Dawn and Conquest have their best showings.

[Flere210]

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'm aware Gunt is an armadillo in armor fitting in with Shining Force being more fantastical then FE, but armored units traveling well over certain terrain such as forests is no more unrealistic then magic users and priests walking faster in the desert or people not being able to unequip armor.

Heroes even does exactly that, making armored units not slowed in forests unlike infantry.

Mages does not exist so they only follow the rules established by the creator. And while unequipping armor is possible, wouldn't it just make them as fast as normal units?

 

Heroes does that because you can't have less movement than 1 and making armors unable to cross forests at all would be both even more unrealistic and far too punishing. I'd rather have them balance armor knight in a way that feel "right" for human tin cans.

[Emperor Hardin]

39 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Mages does not exist so they only follow the rules established by the creator. And while unequipping armor is possible, wouldn't it just make them as fast as normal units?

There is plenty of other ridiculous things too in FE like Wyvern riders using short axes on a giant mount with wings that would get in the way of the rider's axe swinging, bows shooting through walls and armor not being helpful in most situations.

39 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

And while unequipping armor is possible, wouldn't it just make them as fast as normal units?

Exactly and that would be useful in certain situations, especially in games where armored units have terrain they can't cross at all. Say Dalshin is at the 14x escape map and realizes he can't cross over the mountain required for the mission, realistically he would dis-armor as he has to cross or else be left behind. I mean if cavalry can dismount, why not?

Similarly someone like Draug or Gatrie may want to disarmor in a scenario where mobility is more important and defense isn't needed.

39 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Heroes does that because you can't have less movement than 1 and making armors unable to cross forests at all would be both even more unrealistic and far too punishing. I'd rather have them balance armor knight in a way that feel "right" for human tin cans.

In other FE games, armored units are still penalized in terrain like Deserts reducing their already low movement by absurd amounts.

In Heroes, when you use movement increasing skills like armor march, the lack of movement loss for armored units in forests will stick.

Also I'm listening to your balance ideas?

[Flere210]

1)they should bring back the minimum damage of 1 even if the attacker has 5 might and the defendant has 50 defense. While this look like a nerf, it justifies removing other weaknesses, as there is not a risk anymore of the armor becaming unkillable.

2)they should pick 2 at most two weaknesses between low res, low mov, low speed an hammers existing. I would pick low mow and low speed because they make the most sense.

3)they need a way to get Wary Fighter(imo it's better of as an effect on certain shields instead of a class skill, as Armors are not the only ones that may want it), and in general speed should not double your DPS if you have 30 point and the opponent has 26.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 3/5/2020 at 1:13 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

FE10 - I seem to remember Armors having good stat caps in a game where that matters, but Meg is a joke, and both Brom and Taurneo are both on the lower end of availability, although Gatrie doesn't have that problem. I have never bother with them, but on paper they are solid, if you put in the effort.

Brom's availability isn't an issue (II-1,2,E; then III-2 and all subsequent GM chapters), it's just that his stats and weapon ranks suck. Like, he starts with C Axes, whereas Gatrie (a Lance specialist) starts with B Axes, letting him use Boyd's Killer Axe from base. Also Gatrie is actually somewhat fast, Brom is... not.

Tauroneo is good in the few chapters you get him, up through part III.

On 3/5/2020 at 1:13 AM, Eltosian Kadath said:

FE13 - I seem to remember them being alright, but on the higher difficulties you really need to reach game breaking status, so if we grade them on a curve they come out OKish at best.

Armors are nice as defense-boosting statpacks via Pair-Up, if nothing else. Great Knight also gives extra movement. Same in Fates, although there they can perform competently in their own right.

[Eltosian Kadath]

7 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Brom's availability isn't an issue (II-1,2,E; then III-2 and all subsequent GM chapters), it's just that his stats and weapon ranks suck. Like, he starts with C Axes, whereas Gatrie (a Lance specialist) starts with B Axes, letting him use Boyd's Killer Axe from base. Also Gatrie is actually somewhat fast, Brom is... not.

I forgot he joins the Greil Mercenaries so early. For some reason I thought he joined with the rest of Elincia's crew, which is very late into part 3.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Brom's availability isn't an issue (II-1,2,E; then III-2 and all subsequent GM chapters), it's just that his stats and weapon ranks suck. Like, he starts with C Axes, whereas Gatrie (a Lance specialist) starts with B Axes, letting him use Boyd's Killer Axe from base. Also Gatrie is actually somewhat fast, Brom is... not.

You gotta admit, by the time he's gotten to the Mercs, he should have B Axes. Though the real draw of B Axes is the Steel Poleax, given that Radiant Dawn is one of the worst games for killer weapons thanks to enemy luck stats being too high to have crit chances that are even remotely reliable.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Shadow Mir
Typos suck

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Yeah, by the time Gatrie comes, Brom absolutely should have a B in axes by that point. The only thing Gatrie might have over him is speed, but speed really isn't what a Knight focuses on.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

You gotta admit, by the time he's gotten to the Mercs, he should have B Axes. Through the real draw of B Axes is the Steel Poleax, given that Radiant Dawn is one of the worst games for killer weapons thanks to enemy luck stats being too high to have crit chances that are even remotely reliable.

Probably, but it depends on how much you used him in part II. I've definitely had playthroughs where Brom hasn't even hit B-rank by part III (hm, was I trying to train his Sword rank up from E with the Bronze Sword?). I like the Killer Axe, but you are right to say that Steel Poleaccess is even more significant.

25 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Yeah, by the time Gatrie comes, Brom absolutely should have a B in axes by that point. The only thing Gatrie might have over him is speed, but speed really isn't what a Knight focuses on.

Barring intense Brom-favoritism, that's simply false. Let's say you get him up to level 8 in part II (2 levels per chapter). Then, Looking at his averages, he'll have 40.8 HP, 21.4 Strength, 19.4 Skill, 17.8 Speed, and 24.6 Defense. Compare to Gatrie at base, who has 44 HP, 25 Strength, 18 Skill, 20 Speed, and 24 Defense.

Even if you somehow don't use him at all in III-P and III-1, Gatrie will have a significant edge over Brom in HP, Strength, and Speed, with minor deficits in Skill and Defense. Gatrie on Normal mode can, with a few levels, actually double some enemies 60% speed growth baybee), and on Hard Mode it means he's less susceptible to being doubled. Finally, Gatrie has A Lances over Brom's practically-unusable E in Swords.