Should past Seasonal Alts get exclusive weapons or at least better refines?

[MilodicMellodi]

It's a well-known thing that in the earlier days of FEH, a lot of seasonal units were given terrible weapons. Some of these weapons have been fixed with their refines (like Bridal!Charlotte's First Bite+, even though she's not technically a Seasonal unit) but others don't even get quality refine upgrades. Blue Egg+ (self-heals 4 HP after combat), Hibiscus Tome+ (grants allies within 2 spaces Atk/Spd+1 during combat), and Refreshing Bow+ (grants unit All+2 if at 100% but self-burns 2 damage after combat) are (in my opinion) among the worst ones, and each of them have refines that don't improve upon them. And we know Intelligent Systems won't alter their refines in any way.

But what if they got exclusive weapons? We already have many seasonal units that have exclusive weapons (even if they don't have refine effects), so it wouldn't be so out there to think that the other seasonals that were gutted and left in the dust should deserve their own. Even minor improvements would do wonders for them.

So my question is this: should Seasonal units start getting their own exclusive weapons, or at least having the possibility of having their refine effects altered? Or should they just be considered bait that'll never see the light of day again? If you think the former, then what kinds of effects do you want for them to have?

Edited December 19, 2019 by MilodicMellodi

[SockPuppet]

They should! Make people wanna pull again

[Humanoid]

Yes but only if we get more than four refines a month. We'd never catch up otherwise.

An alternative would be to add more desirable (or at least interesting) weapons to the inheritable weapons pool, and making them commonly available. I'm talking on the level of Killer (Slaying) weapon availability here. The selection of inheritable at the moment is just so incredibly boring.

[MilodicMellodi]

18 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

Yes but only if we get more than four refines a month. We'd never catch up otherwise.

An alternative would be to add more desirable (or at least interesting) weapons to the inheritable weapons pool, and making them commonly available. I'm talking on the level of Killer (Slaying) weapon availability here. The selection of inheritable at the moment is just so incredibly boring.

Like adding new Seasonal units with weapons having better versions of their downgrade, and giving the past Seasonals the ability to upgrade into those weapons with a reduced cost, just like how Killer upgrades into Slaying? I'm down for that.

Edited December 19, 2019 by MilodicMellodi

[Anacybele]

Heck yeah, I'd totally say yes to this. I AM an avid Summer Freddy user who +10'd him and maxed his flowers! Poor guy could use some more help now. Though if he does get some, he just better not get screwed like his normal self did (just armor effectiveness and freaking Death Blow, what a joke).

[MilodicMellodi]

Here's my first draft ideas for fixes to each weapon. NOTE that I'm only doing seasonals for now; I do realize a lot of non-seasonal weapons (like the first Bridal weapons) were utter crap. I'll get to that another time, but right now I'm focusing on seasonals.
ALSO NOTE that I'm not making these as for what I actually want for them. I would much prefer them getting exclusive weapons. But if they were to get upgrades instead of new weapons, these are what I would want them getting. Or close to, at least.

Blue Egg+/Green Egg+/Carrot Lance+/Carrot Axe+: "Restores 7 HP to unit and allies within 2 spaces after combat."
Essentially Breath of Life, but with a quality of life change. Lets the unit have a supportive role, instead of just having its effect barely help with Fury self-harm.

Refreshing Bow+/Seashell+/Deft Harpoon+/Melon Crusher+: "At start of combat, if unit's HP = 100%, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 during combat." (+Flying effectiveness for Refreshing Bow+, and Dagger 7 for Seashell+.)
There's no reason at all for the self-harm now, and All+2 is pretty mediocre nowadays. I think keeping with the "100% HP" aesthetic is a nice idea, so I decided to have it use that but in return give it a better boost than the Fury effect weapons under that condition. It's pretty much Sealed Falchion, but with the condition being switched.

Tomato Tome+/Sealife Tome+/Hibiscus Tome+/Lilith Floatie+: "Grants unit and allies within 2 spaces Atk/Spd+3 during combat."
They didn't even need much, IS. Those couple extra points each stat would have been amazing as a supportive weapon. Anyhow, I've also decided to add the combat bonus to the unit as well because most good effects nowadays are way better. This way, it can be both supportive and offensive without going overbored.

Candelabra+/Tannenboom!+/Sack-o'-Gifts+/Handbell+: "If foe initiates combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 and neutralizes unit's penalties during combat."
Something of a Bond 4 effect with the boost spread out and not needing to be adjacent to an ally, in return for the effect only lasting for the Enemy Phase. It'd actually make Harsh Command useful again, because HC's usefulness dies during the Enemy Phase when the foes' Chills and Ploys activate; it'd let you HC during the Player Phase to make use of the foe's debuffs, while the Enemy Phase could care less about being debuffed.

Kadomatsu+/Hagoita+: Grants unit and allies within 2 spaces Def/Res+3 during combat."
I didn't include Kagami Mochi+ because it's fine as-is; Killer/Slaying effects are seriously underrated. For the other two, though, making them like what I put for the Nohrian Summer upgrades is perfect for them.

Shell Lance+/Beach Banner+/Cocobow+: "If unit initiates combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 during combat and neutralizes unit's penalties during combat." (+Flying effectiveness for Cocobow+.)
I feel like I'm going to edit this later, but I feel like having these have a Player Phase version of the Winter's Envoy weapon effects isn't a bad idea. Not only are the weapon types different (Winter's Envoy's weapons are the three tome colors and the axe, while these are lance, axe, and bow; while the axe gets a choice, each unit can only hold one weapon during battle anyhow), but the "only works in one phase" bit balances it out just like the others. You can choose to have a Bond 4 skill, or you can go with one of these weapons and only have that effect during the Player Phase.
It'd pretty much be for builds that prioritize having strong Player Phases. Having the ability to not care about debuffs when you're initiating, and not having to awkwardly position your units so your Bond 4 skills would activate, would let a lot of units do strategies they otherwise wouldn't dream of doing. And the drawback of not having that during the Enemy Phase would also make you have to think of your positioning, so it wouldn't actually be busted.

Edited December 19, 2019 by MilodicMellodi

[Javi Blizz]

They should, as long as they get a new powers banner to appear again. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'm going to say no. A strong no. Not until all of the regular units have theirs (which is never going to happen, because they keep releasing new heroes without personal weapons.)

[Usana]

Since many of the seasonal weapons share effects if they take up a slot in the refinements all the characters with that effect should count as only one slot. And of course they should probably get a refine during their season that way the new power banner isn't flooded(in fact it would be down a unit) and their banner could just be 'X: Now with New Power', or something like that. It would effectively net us a couple more refines on those months then we otherwise get at the cost of a single non-alt/seasonal not getting a refine that month that otherwise would.

The tradeoff might be worth it to bring new interest in the older seasonals. In addition if these weapons aren't turned into true personals, but rather strong inheritables, then we get to beef up the inheritable pool a bit more too.

[Endriu]

They definitely deserve upgrades. I mean we are getting reruns each year and each year those units are getting weaker and less interesting.

[Jakkun]

For sure! I don't think its right that seasonals more or less need broken prfs out the gate (for example, Halloween Myrrh or the recent Christmas units) to avoid being powercrept months down the line, but the facts don't lie. If I say, really liked Spring Chrom and +10'd him when his banner first dropped, it's pretty crappy that he has a hard time stacking up against a +0 Hilda, or even Echidna who recently demoted and can be merged up by just about anyone. Giving Spring Chrom a "Carrot Axe++" that could be a 16 mt, souped up Carrot Axe with an extra effect via the refinery would go a long way to keeping those old seasonals relevant.

Powercreep is inevitable, but Seasonals probably have it the worst of all units since there's nearly nothing over the horizon for them. From what I noticed, the few prf-less seasonals that still hold up well mostly have unique movement/weapon type niches (specifically ranged armors) or were just blessed with solid enough stats to excel at their role (Summer Ursula comes to mind).

[Roflolxp54]

Would be cool for sure. The biggest problem is that it doesn't fix the seasonals' inherent availability issue (outside of grail seasonals). Like aside from players pulling for their favorites, seasonal Prfs would do nothing and would just be more borederline dead content that remains outside of the average player's reach. Like sure, they may have a super cool Prf one day, but later on down the line, unless the Prf has very strong support utility (ie. massive in-combat buffs for allies), it'll inevitably get powercreeped by something that's more available year-round.

[Faellin]

As long as they don't get in the way of older non seasonals getting refines. Like have said seasonals get refines in seperate waves, I don't see why they shouldn't be eligible for them. Year 1 seasonals honestly kinda suck these days (With a few exceptions)

[Lightcosmo]

5 hours ago, Jakkun said:

For sure! I don't think its right that seasonals more or less need broken prfs out the gate (for example, Halloween Myrrh or the recent Christmas units) to avoid being powercrept months down the line, but the facts don't lie. If I say, really liked Spring Chrom and +10'd him when his banner first dropped, it's pretty crappy that he has a hard time stacking up against a +0 Hilda, or even Echidna who recently demoted and can be merged up by just about anyone. Giving Spring Chrom a "Carrot Axe++" that could be a 16 mt, souped up Carrot Axe with an extra effect via the refinery would go a long way to keeping those old seasonals relevant.

Powercreep is inevitable, but Seasonals probably have it the worst of all units since there's nearly nothing over the horizon for them. From what I noticed, the few prf-less seasonals that still hold up well mostly have unique movement/weapon type niches (specifically ranged armors) or were just blessed with solid enough stats to excel at their role (Summer Ursula comes to mind).

This is how I feel about it as well. I'm 100% in for them getting better weapons.

[Ice Dragon]

There are really 2 ways to look at this. One is that the units are becoming obsolete. The other is that the weapons are becoming obsolete.

Old seasonal units without an exclusive weapon have the worst possible position in the game in regards to powercreep. As they have no exclusive weapon to set them apart from other units, all that is unique about them is their stat spread and class. These units are therefore always at risk of becoming completely obsolete by newer units with strictly better stat spreads, though it will at least take longer for this to happen for units with rare classes. The only way to fix this issue using frameworks that already exist in the game is to implement exclusive weapons for these units.

Weapons becoming obsolete is less of an issue since the area is pretty much intended to be volatile. However, these weapons are in part intended to be novelty weapons and I would argue that old inheritable seasonal weapons from before the developers really knew what they were doing with balance should be made more in line with later weapons. Personally, it would be nice to simply have their base effects be completely retconned without need to refine them (since they already have refines).

 

As for my personal thoughts on what I'd like to see,

I'm fine with old seasonal units getting new exclusive weapons as long as it doesn't slow down the rate that standard units get refines and new exclusive weapons.

I'm fine with old seasonal units not getting new exclusive weapons if they simply drop old seasonal units to the 4-star pool for banners within their season. For example, instead of repeating the Spring 2017 again, they could add Spring Chrom, Spring Lucina, Spring Xander, and Spring Camilla to the 4-star pool on the Spring 2018 and Spring 2019 rerun banners and the Spring 2020 new character banner.

I would like the old seasonal weapons to have their base effects retconned to be more in line with more recent weapons. At the bare minimum, the could be implemented as a new unique refine for the weapon, but I'd rather just have the new base effect built into the existing weapon skill. It would be nice if the developers would just stop being allergic to changing existing skill effects.

 

22 hours ago, MilodicMellodi said:

I didn't include Kagami Mochi+ because it's fine as-is; Killer/Slaying effects are seriously underrated.

I'm not sure how the effect is underrated when pretty much every build theorist considers the effect to be top tier.

The reason why Kagami Mochi is "fine as is" is not because the effect is underrated. It's because the weapon is identical to Barb Shuriken.

[Hilda]

i think they could accelerate weapon refines in general. Not everyone wants to refine all the weapons. 12 Weapon refines on every major update is a good number and refining the old seasonal unit weapons would be nice too for the 2017 seasonal units going on forward.

[MilodicMellodi]

37 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not sure how the effect is underrated when pretty much every build theorist considers the effect to be top tier.

The reason why Kagami Mochi is "fine as is" is not because the effect is underrated. It's because the weapon is identical to Barb Shuriken.

I think so too. However, back before I left the Gamepress discord (permanently, and proud of finally leaving it), most of them on the server always said that Barb Shuriken/Kagami Mochi weren't that great when compared with the likes of Bottled Juice and Broadleaf Fan.

Edited December 20, 2019 by MilodicMellodi

[Holla99]

Considering my main unit is Spring Chrom (he iscurrently +5 and I'd love to +10 him at some point) who was part of the very first seasonal banner after launch I really hope they give a slight upgrade to the really old weapons. I love him so much but his original weapon is super meh. Even just a small Hp increase for the after combat healing would be fine. It would only benefit IS as it would make more people want to pull for the older seasonals again. I think the best way to do it is to start when each corresponding season rolls around with the year one units and give them all slight weapon improvements (don't really need to change their effects just need to make them a little stronger is all).

So for example this Spring, Spring Camilla, Xander, Lucina and Chrom's weapons could go from "heals 4HP  after combat if unit attacked" to something like: Heals 8HP after combat if unit attacked or heals 4HP per attack unit makes. Something along those lines. Nothing gamebreaking but just a little boost to make their weapons go from trash to ok/decent.

I honestly highly doubt this will happen but I would gladly welcome it. I definitely have some fave seasonal units from year one I rarely use due to bad weapons (looking at you +3 Summer Elise who's weapon only grants Atk/Spd+1 to allies within two spaces). Oh well. Only time will tell.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Holla99

[Jakkun]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm fine with old seasonal units not getting new exclusive weapons if they simply drop old seasonal units to the 4-star pool for banners within their season. For example, instead of repeating the Spring 2017 again, they could add Spring Chrom, Spring Lucina, Spring Xander, and Spring Camilla to the 4-star pool on the Spring 2018 and Spring 2019 rerun banners and the Spring 2020 new character banner.

This is a really good suggestion and something I also had in mind. I think one of the biggest issues is that the old seasonals are still considered by IS to be premium 5 star units that are worth spending 100+ orbs for a single copy. I don't see anyone mad that New Year's Corrin or Laegjarn aren't super OP units (though Corrin could use a refine too tbh) and it's probably because they aren't clogging the 5 star pool on seasonal banners. Anyone could save up the grails and guarantee themselves a +10 Valentine's Eliwood down the line if they so wish. Even though grail acquisition is a tedious process all on its own, and I wish they gave us more of them. Whereas those that want a Summer Xander have to shell out the most premium currency in the game and risk getting screwed over by pitybreakers and the like. Rates somehow even worse than just pulling for the current year's seasonal banner, since the entire 5 star pool is active during rerun banners, meaning even more chances to get screwed by a unit you don't want. All for a unit that doesn't have nearly as much value in terms of fodder or stats nowadays compared to even some demote units.

If IS really wants old prf-less seasonals to stay bad, this is probably the best way they could go about it. If they were to put them in the 4 star pool for their respective banners, I would like them to make them 4 star focus units, sorta like that old fodder banner that they never did again, albeit with lower rates. Something like this would work:

• 3% for 5★ focus units
• 3% for 5★ units
• 5% for 4★ focus units
• 53% for 4★ units
• 36% for 3★ units

That way someone who really wants to merge up their Spring Chrom or Xander doesn't have to wade through as much crap as someone who wants to merge up...Spring Tharja or idk whatever waifubait powercreep they put out in 2020. I am aware that i'm probably asking for too much and IS wouldn't care enough to change up the summon pool like this. Still a thought tho.

[Baldrick]

I'd also be in favour of making old seasonal units "cheaper", and I think it's the best solution if you want to "fix" their problems.

The appeal of seasonals is unusual costumes and weapons, which has nothing to do with how strong they are. Only an absolutely busted refine would make any of them candidates for competitive modes (unless they already were), and they're still perfectly usable in non-competitive modes even without a prf weapon.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Baldrick

[Landmaster]

How is Bride Charlotte not Seasonal? She's definitely Seasonal~

Anyway, sure, why not? Hibiscus Tome is pretty worthless with only a +1 increase~ A real Drive would be much more valuable~

[MilodicMellodi]

1 hour ago, Landmaster said:

How is Bride Charlotte not Seasonal? She's definitely Seasonal~

Anyway, sure, why not? Hibiscus Tome is pretty worthless with only a +1 increase~ A real Drive would be much more valuable~

Bridal banners aren't really considered seasonal (even though they act like them, and are as rare as them). Seasonal units are considered to be based off of major holidays (New Year's Day, Valentine's Day, Halloween) or based off of the seasons (Spring, Summer, Winter).

I wish IS considered the Bridal units as seasonal units too.

[Landmaster]

43 minutes ago, MilodicMellodi said:

Bridal banners aren't really considered seasonal (even though they act like them, and are as rare as them). Seasonal units are considered to be based off of major holidays (New Year's Day, Valentine's Day, Halloween) or based off of the seasons (Spring, Summer, Winter).

I wish IS considered the Bridal units as seasonal units too.

I'm pretty sure all Special Heroes are Seasonal whether they are based on Holidays or not~

[Zeo]

I'm actually going to say no do this based on the principle that now you have a whole new set (and a rather large one) of characters that all need new prfs. Am I against Spring Chrom getting a better weapon? Of course not. But do I want him to get one before the likes of Xander, Camus or Laslow or any staff unit? Absolutely not. This is a topic of discussion I'd be open to revisit after every normal pool Gen 1 unit (and some Gen 2s) gets their prf and at no point until then. In fact, it would probably irritate me if Special Heroes started getting prfs before older units that I'm sure certain people consider their favorites or have invested heavily in.

[Humanoid]

The reason seasonals get lesser treatment now is that because of their low availability, not many people stand to benefit from existing ones being improved. If availability was increased, say from every seasonal being available as off-focus on any other seasonal banner, then any reason for non-seasonals to get favouritism would be gone and I'd just as happily invest in them as I would in any other unit.