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Alastor15243

Sorely-needed AI behaviors?

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So, we all know that Fire Emblem AI, most infuriatingly Green Unit AI, can be outrageously stupid at times. Suppose IS really wanted to buckle down and revamp AI behavior so that it looks like, say, Green Units aren't actively trying to die. What sorts of behaviors do you think they should add?

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I just wanted Rodrigue to stay his butt on his little square and not steal exp in Felix's paralogue.

6 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

Trading to spam the Bolting tome and status staves.

Trading with other green units or player units? 

"Kingdom Soldier would like to trade Vulnerary for Bolting."

Yes/No

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Non-suicidal green unit AI sounds nice.

I still hate that paralogue in Awakening with the three villagers.

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FE10 has enemy units attack at 1 range when the player has a 1-2 range weapon equipped, only to get themselves destroyed by a mastery skill, that's not very smart.

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11 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

FE10 has enemy units attack at 1 range when the player has a 1-2 range weapon equipped, only to get themselves destroyed by a mastery skill, that's not very smart.

Meanwhile 1-2 range units in Awakening will always attack your 1-2 range units at 2 range when they can, even if they have counter and would obliterate you if they attacked in melee.

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3 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

"Kingdom Soldier would like to trade Vulnerary for Bolting."

Yes/No

Silly Soldier. You're not a Mage.
 

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

So, we all know that Fire Emblem AI, most infuriatingly Green Unit AI, can be outrageously stupid at times. Suppose IS really wanted to buckle down and revamp AI behavior so that it looks like, say, Green Units aren't actively trying to die. What sorts of behaviors do you think they should add?

Personality traits that carry over to strategies used for auto-battle would be good.

Say for example you've got Olivia, who doesn't like seeing anyone hurt, and you have her holding lots of healing items, but she's near someone who's injured and you've got Auto-Battle on (for whatever reason you might). She could actively prioritise giving that ally a healing item as part of a personality trait then if/when they heal, her behaviour changes to another suitable action that befits her in combat. be that assisting someone by dancing or moving near to someone for a Dual-Guard.

It's just a matter of categorizing auto-battle strategies into personality archetypes and applying that so that the AI can always be interesting in its behaviour. Bonus points to any Archers that behave in a manner befitting ol' 3-13.

 

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6 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

Bonus points to any Archers that behave in a manner befitting ol' 3-13.

The AI committing suicide is not a thing to be commended, nor is it useful in any way.

Edited by NinjaMonkey

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9 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

"Kingdom Soldier would like to trade Vulnerary for Bolting."

Yes/No

That's actually pretty damn awesome! I've thought about this, and that they also do get the dropped items from enemies and give them to you at the end of the map, however if you need that item then be given an option to ask the green unit to deliver the item to you.

An idea could be to be able to mark certain enemies that you either want them to: kill ASAP, enclose an enemy and not kill it, just not kill an enemy, avoid this guy, etc.

Many other conditions would be cool too, an ideal world (for me) would be where you have an option in the options menu where you have a bunch of blocks with AI behaviour and you arrange them according to importance (Healing, healing others, attacking) or on logical "if X then Y, otherwise Z" situations, almost as if like you're programming on Scratch or something, so as to give them your own AI, and a special mode where you could do the same to the enemies though I would also rather they (enemies and greeners) are smart by default obviously for those who cba to spend hours designing the perfect AI.

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To be honest... I have no idea what would constitute an intelligent A.I., barring the fact they'd need to adapt to the circumstances they face and be aware that they are in fact, incredibly vulnerable due to being less durable than your own units will likely be. So you know, charging headlong into the enemy might be a bad idea...

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11 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

Silly Soldier. You're not a Mage.

Maybe he's giving it to his mage buddy.

Quote

An idea could be to be able to mark certain enemies that you either want them to: kill ASAP, enclose an enemy and not kill it, just not kill an enemy, avoid this guy, etc.

@This boi uses Nino That'd be useful! It reminds me of directing the yellow units in Tellius, only with more options.

Edited by Dragoncat

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15 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Meanwhile 1-2 range units in Awakening will always attack your 1-2 range units at 2 range when they can, even if they have counter and would obliterate you if they attacked in melee.

In Awakening, enemy Counter doesn't activate on EP, though, only PP. Unless I'm mis-remembering.

Anyway, green units could fall back/use healing items at low HP. Or maybe, in a game with Rescuing, they could do Rescue-Drop Shenanigans. Honestly would be neat to see enemies employ this stuff too.

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3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In Awakening, enemy Counter doesn't activate on EP, though, only PP. Unless I'm mis-remembering.

You are mis-remembering. That's 50% of what makes Lunatic+ so terrifying.

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5 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

That'd be useful! It reminds me of directing the yellow units in Tellius, only with more options.

That's what I was thinking of lol, but it was really kinda lackluster when it came to options.

I think Green units also have to be fairly powerful, like below your units on average but stronger than the enemies by a very small margin, which is why armor knights are usually the best green units, they survive long enough and take a couple of hits. They should also scale to the enemies if you're playing hard mode for example.

Oh and @Dragoncat, don't forget that in that Yes/No menu you showed it should happen before the green unit moves, otherwise it would just waste their turn.

4 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

That's 50% of what makes Lunatic+ so terrifying.

And also another reason for why that mode, plus or not, is badly designed.

Edited by This boi uses Nino

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23 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

The AI committing suicide is not a thing to be commended, nor is it useful in any way.

I'd say have a few placed around at random. 3-13 earned his fame by being that bit extraordinary so why not have a few more archers like that littered throughout a game. Like one for every 4 chapters past 10 or something like that. Keep the behavioural trait available and maybe only locked to the enemy or something.

11 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

Maybe he's giving it to his mage buddy.

Why not just have mage buddy get it himself? Mage buddy sounds lazy! =o

15 hours ago, The Roger The Paladin said:

To be honest... I have no idea what would constitute an intelligent A.I., barring the fact they'd need to adapt to the circumstances they face and be aware that they are in fact, incredibly vulnerable due to being less durable than your own units will likely be. So you know, charging headlong into the enemy might be a bad idea...

But wouldn't that just get a lot of enemies in the later-game to largely avoid attacking you at all because they could hardly, if at all, do anything to you?

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Speaking of 3-13 archer...

Quote

DragoncatLast Monday at 2:13 PM
Oh my god lol a random green unit swordmaster critted Edelgard and left her with 1 hp so I could send Dimitri after her, and also critted two of the guards which I think were a warrior and a fortress knight, killing them, only to die from a dark mage.
 
AnacybeleLast Monday at 2:13 PM
lol nice.
 
DragoncatLast Monday at 2:13 PM
I think that swordmaster deserves a medal.
 
AnacybeleLast Monday at 2:13 PM
Oh yeah.
 
DragoncatLast Monday at 2:13 PM
Even better: a female.
She should meet the 3-13 archer in RD.
You know that one? He's known for surviving waves of cats and tigers by himself.
Those two's kids would be SUPER GREEN UNITS
 
AnacybeleLast Monday at 2:15 PM
I was wondering why that archer was a meme.
It's been a long time since I last played through RD, so I only vaguely recall him.

I was just before timeskip in Lions and this badass girl strutted her stuff. I later found out she's Catherine's replacement, which explains it.

7 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

Why not just have mage buddy get it himself? Mage buddy sounds lazy! =o

He just wants to stand in one spot and nuke, it's a common strategy.

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3 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

3-13 earned his fame by being that bit extraordinary so why not have a few more archers like that littered throughout a game.

I know he mans a ballista and destroys Laguz but what exactly mades him so revered by the community? And why is he 3-13 archer? it it the number of the map? (I haven't played RD)

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7 hours ago, Light Strategist said:

But wouldn't that just get a lot of enemies in the later-game to largely avoid attacking you at all because they could hardly, if at all, do anything to you?

I more meant for green units on "rescue missions". The ones who stand around or even charge into enemy range infuriate me to no end. For an enemy unit, the suicidal attempts could at least be justified by "they're more afraid of facing their masters than you". For a green unit... they really don't have anything except stupidity/overconfidence to justify charging into dangerous territory. This tendency seems to exist solely to make the protect missions more difficult than they need to be. Look at how the green units on Felix' paralogue in Three Houses, or how Catherine's subordinates in the chapter with Lonato simply charge blindly into range of everything and anything with no regard for safety or strategy. While not difficult to deal with here, it is still insanely stupid from their point of view. Why are the fleeing townsfolk running at the bandits instead of away?  Why are Catherine's (presumably trained) subordinates running into the fog with zero regard for formation, cover etcetera?

If the green units must act like they're idiots, perhaps they should at least have a canonical reason for it. Ironically, one good example of this is the injured Nils in a certain chapter of FE 7 (not giving chapter number because it changes depending on whether it's Eliwood or Hector mode, and the name eludes me). He's passed out, so him not moving away from enemies makes sense.

 

7 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

I was just before timeskip in Lions and this badass girl strutted her stuff. I later found out she's Catherine's replacement, which explains it.

Funny enough the first time I played through, she one shotted Randolph. So definitely of value. Last time I played the map she got done in by Ladislava though.

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5 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I know he mans a ballista and destroys Laguz but what exactly mades him so revered by the community? And why is he 3-13 archer? it it the number of the map? (I haven't played RD)

3-13 is the number of the chapter. Part 3 chapter 13.

He's famous for not only the ballista and laguz killing, but often surviving the chapter even when the enemy reaches him. He's technically a sniper.

Edited by Dragoncat

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11 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

3-13 is the number of the chapter. Part 3 chapter 13.

He's famous for not only the ballista and laguz killing, but often surviving the chapter even when the enemy reaches him. He's technically a sniper.

None of which has ever happened in any of my playthroughs. All I've ever seen him do is go to the top left pit when three laguz spawn there, and then die after getting one shot off. But hey, it's a free kill for Fiona, so I'm not complaining.

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15 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

None of which has ever happened in any of my playthroughs. All I've ever seen him do is go to the top left pit when three laguz spawn there, and then die after getting one shot off. But hey, it's a free kill for Fiona, so I'm not complaining.

Yeah, he doesn't always do it, but he has before for some people.

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22 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

Speaking of 3-13 archer...

I was just before timeskip in Lions and this badass girl strutted her stuff. I later found out she's Catherine's replacement, which explains it.

That part about their kids being legendary makes it even better. Couldn't help but laugh.

22 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

He just wants to stand in one spot and nuke, it's a common strategy.

But that makes high-res units approaching and ending him easier! If not occasionally suicidal in repurcussion but you get my point.

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34 minutes ago, Light Strategist said:

That part about their kids being legendary makes it even better. Couldn't help but laugh.

Glad I could do so.

I also joke about if she was Kingdom Soldier instead of Knight of Seiros, that she could have been Felix's mom. Well I guess she still could. Send her lil boi down there to kick ass and take names with mommy. Although he'll just roll his eyes and act like she's lame and embarrassing him.

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