Jump to content

LOZ Twilight Princess: Zant and Ganondorf


vanguard333
 Share

Recommended Posts

Recently, I was thinking back on The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess; namely on the plot twist that occurs just before confronting Zant. Spoilers ahead if you haven't played Twilight Princess. 

The reveal that Zant, who up until that point had seemed calm, collected and creepy, is actually little more than a manchild and a minion of Ganondorf, is one that has long been divisive; some believing that Zant should've remained his calm pre-twist self, some believing the twist added depth to a "bland, generic villain", and some taking a middle-road and saying the twist was alright, but it needed more foreshadowing. I myself wasn't sure where I stood on the twist; I probably bounced back and forth between all three opinions. But recently, I remembered something important: Ganondorf, and this led me to realize what I think, looking back, was a big missed opportunity for Twilight Princess. 

For the vast majority of the game, Zant is the one doing all the actions, while Ganondorf goes completely unseen and is only mentioned in the second act; completely lacking any presence. Then, when Zant is confronted, it is revealed that, despite Zant acting under his own ambitions, Ganondorf is the real main villain. As a result, Ganondorf is supposed to be the True Final Boss, but can seem like a Bonus Boss due to his limited involvement and complete lack of presence for the vast majority of the game. I've seen some suggest that Ganondorf should've been left out and pre-twist Zant should've been the sole main villain, but I think that too would have been missing a big opportunity: a Big Bad Duumvirate

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBadDuumvirate

 Basically, imagine if, for Twilight Princess, both Zant and Ganondorf were equally the main villains of the story, and both had roughly equal presence throughout the game. The idea of two villains working together to further each other's goals would've been brand new for the Zelda series and very interesting. 

Based on both Ganondorf's return and the mysterious green hand, it seems that the opportunity for a Big Bad Duumvirate is coming again in BOTW2. 

 

I know I'm mainly talking about a game that released 13 years ago, but what do you think?

Edited by vanguard333
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I know I'm mainly talking about a game that released 13 years ago, but what do you think?

I think that Zant wouldn't work well as a final boss and that the "Hijacked by Ganon" trope is far superior.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it's fair to say Ganondorf was "only hinted at in the second act". He retroactively becomes an agent of the story the very moment he is mentioned, after you clear the fourth (out of eight) dungeons and learn your next objective is to restore the mirror of twilight. From that moment we already know Zant got his power from Ganon after Ganon was banished to the twilight realm. Although the story still focuses on the threat of Zant, it's never a twist that Ganon is still out there and has some working relationship with Zant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I think that Zant wouldn't work well as a final boss and that the "Hijacked by Ganon" trope is far superior.

I never said that Zant would be the final boss. I would still have had it that the Zant fight would happen before the Ganondorf fight. 

In most cases, yes; Hijacked by Ganon is superior. However, Ganon's presence was still felt throughout each game he hijacked except Twilight Princess (and the Oracle games, where he was more of a bonus boss):

  • In A Link to the Past, it's well-established early on that Aghanim is working for Ganon. The twist near the end is that he isn't; he is Ganon (or rather, a piece of Ganon). 
  • In Four Swords Adventures, Ganon's presence is there from the very beginning in the form of Shadow Link, through which he abducts Zelda and the Maidens and tricks Link into freeing Vaati. Since Shadow Link is just a construct created by Ganon, and not actually a character, this counts as Ganon's doing. 

 

33 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I don't think it's fair to say Ganondorf was "only hinted at in the second act". He retroactively becomes an agent of the story the very moment he is mentioned, after you clear the fourth (out of eight) dungeons and learn your next objective is to restore the mirror of twilight. From that moment we already know Zant got his power from Ganon after Ganon was banished to the twilight realm. Although the story still focuses on the threat of Zant, it's never a twist that Ganon is still out there and has some working relationship with Zant.

In retrospect, "only hinted at" was definitely not a good way to phrase my point. But my point still stands: yes, we find out that Zant got his power from Ganondorf. But all of Zant's actions are still the result of his own goals and ambitions; if, for example, Ganondorf had died in the Twilight Realm and Zant retrieved the Triforce of Power from his corpse, the plot would be almost exactly the same for most of the game; the only difference before confronting Zant being the crystal encasing Hyrule Castle. The point I was trying to get across is that Ganondorf completely lacks presence until after Zant is defeated. Does that clear things up?

Edited by vanguard333
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always been fine with the "main villain switch" myself. I do think the idea of both having an active presence throughout the game would have been interesting though. And I already know the perfect opportunity to implement that: You know the brats that get kidnapped at the beginning of the game, kickstarting Link's entire adventure? Ever wondered why? Because I have, and the only conclusion I can come to is "because we needed a reason for Link to go on his adventure". Have Ganondorf be behind that, and give him some kind of motivation. Like, maybe Ilia has the Triforce of Wisdom in this game instead of Zelda, or something like that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recall being pretty negative of the reveal that Zant is actually a little kid who cries and throws temper tantrums. The idea the he's entirely different beneath the mask isn't a terrible idea but the way TP's story handled it was just completely out of the blue. I prefer Hyrule Warriors version of Zant where the two sides of his persona are side by side instead of completely separated. 

Ganon's return isn't something I think worked very well. Great as she is I think Midna is the problem. When we finally meet Ganondorf its for the final confrontation between him and Midna. He's the source of all her woes, he's the one oppressing her people and throughout the entirety of the fight Ganondorf converses with Midna while completely ignoring that Link even exits. It comes off as a little awkward, as if Link just wondered into a story that really isn't his. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't care for the reveal at all. I had really liked Zant up until that point, and Ganondorf has always been too brutish to resonate with me. Plus, you know, Ganondorf's long and storied history of failure means he suffers from Team Rocketism.

 

Zelda could really use more standalone villains with agency of their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Twilight Princess is my favorite game of all time so I might be a little biased, but here goes:

I liked having both villains in the game. I never really cared too much for Zant and only felt threatened by him when he almost killed Midna, so I wasn't exactly bummed out when I started to see signs that Ganondorf had a role to play in the story. The Zant boss fight itself was fun, but it'll never compare to the awesome 4-stage war waged against Ganondorf. I love the story of Twilight Princess for sure, but gameplay is equally as important to me in a Zelda game, and if Ganondorf wasn't in the game, we would have missed out on so much.

So basically, I love the game for what it is, and most attempts to improve it that have been discussed would remove what I stand by as the best final boss/ending to a Zelda game, ever. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a bit too early to tell much about BotW 2, but yeah. Is that mummy Ganondorf going to be the main villain alongside Calamity again? Or a puppet? We don't know, but I'm more interested in the possibility that Zelda will be playable and co op mode. Please just make the AI if you don't have two players not dumb as a box of rocks. Or at least an option to direct it/pick how smart it acts. *shifty glance at Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon*

On TP, Zant and Ganondorf were both fine in their roles, my nitpick is that the twili were a one time show and we never learned more about them. Like, at Twilight Palace, I know those twili were still half cursed, but wouldn't it be great if they could talk to you? Perfect opportunity to drop more info.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Elephantus said:

I've always been fine with the "main villain switch" myself. I do think the idea of both having an active presence throughout the game would have been interesting though. And I already know the perfect opportunity to implement that: You know the brats that get kidnapped at the beginning of the game, kickstarting Link's entire adventure? Ever wondered why? Because I have, and the only conclusion I can come to is "because we needed a reason for Link to go on his adventure". Have Ganondorf be behind that, and give him some kind of motivation. Like, maybe Ilia has the Triforce of Wisdom in this game instead of Zelda, or something like that?

Perhaps. I always figured that they were abducted because of wrong place, wrong time: King Bulblin was assigned to find Ordon Spring so they could send a Shadow Beast to steal Ordon's light, and Link and the kids happened to be there, so they needed to make sure the kids couldn't tell anyone. It doesn't explain why they left Link behind, but it's been a while since I saw that scene and there might be an explanation. 

Personally, I always found it strange that that was how the adventure started. At the start of the game, Ordon Village is preparing for Rusl and Link to deliver the Ordon Sword & Shield to Hyrule Castle. I honestly thought when I first played the game that Link and Rusl would deliver the items to Hyrule Castle, and the invasion of Hyrule would happen then. That could actually have been interesting; Link and Rusl being in Hyrule Castle when Zant takes over. If Link meets Zelda before the invasion & surrender, we would have even more reason to care. Rusl would have an ambiguous fate (it only being revealed when we return to Ordon Village that he survived but got injured), and they can still have the kids get kidnapped; either off-screen in Ordon Village or they insisted on coming with Link to see Hyrule Castle. We could even have Ganon's presence be hinted at early on by having Link see him (in gaseous ball form) over Castle Town; basking in his and Zant's victory. This would also give us contrast right away between idyllic pre-disaster Hyrule and Hyrule under the twilight. 

 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I recall being pretty negative of the reveal that Zant is actually a little kid who cries and throws temper tantrums. The idea the he's entirely different beneath the mask isn't a terrible idea but the way TP's story handled it was just completely out of the blue. I prefer Hyrule Warriors version of Zant where the two sides of his persona are side by side instead of completely separated. 

I haven't played Hyrule Warriors, but that sounds interesting. 

6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Ganon's return isn't something I think worked very well. Great as she is I think Midna is the problem. When we finally meet Ganondorf its for the final confrontation between him and Midna. He's the source of all her woes, he's the one oppressing her people and throughout the entirety of the fight Ganondorf converses with Midna while completely ignoring that Link even exits. It comes off as a little awkward, as if Link just wondered into a story that really isn't his. 

True. Throughout a fair bit of the game, Link is more Midna's agent than a hero saving Hyrule for his own reasons. However, by the end, they are a team. 

Yeah; I found that weird, especially because Ganondorf hasn't been oppressing her people or is the source of any of her woes except her curse still lingering; Zant was the one that did all that; Ganon just used Zant as a way to escape the Twilight Realm. Plus, Ganondorf has never met Midna and doesn't care about the Twilight Realm; why is he referring to her by name or even able to recognize her? That's the part that I found weird; given Ganondorf's involvement, he should be unfamiliar with, and dismissive of, both of them; not just Link. 

 

4 hours ago, Etheus said:

I didn't care for the reveal at all. I had really liked Zant up until that point, and Ganondorf has always been too brutish to resonate with me. Plus, you know, Ganondorf's long and storied history of failure means he suffers from Team Rocketism.

Zelda could really use more standalone villains with agency of their own.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Ganondorf suffers Team Rocketism; especially when one considers how effective he proves to be up until his inevitable defeats. Across multiple games, he's ruled Hyrule for seven years, he's outsmarted Zelda and the Sages at every turn, he outsmarted the King of Hyrule at every turn up until the king beats him to touching the Triforce... he's been quite effective. 

I suppose. Though Zelda has had a number of standalone villains with their own agency: the Nightmares, Majora's Mask, Vaati (in Four Swords and Minish Cap), Bellum, Malladus and Cole, Yuga, and Lady Maud. I agree that it would be nice to see more of them. 

 

2 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

It's a bit too early to tell much about BotW 2, but yeah. Is that mummy Ganondorf going to be the main villain alongside Calamity again? Or a puppet? We don't know, but I'm more interested in the possibility that Zelda will be playable and co op mode. Please just make the AI if you don't have two players not dumb as a box of rocks. Or at least an option to direct it/pick how smart it acts. *shifty glance at Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon*

I'm pretty sure the implication is that Calamity Ganon is just the disembodied and bestial consciousness of Ganon created by releasing that Malice goo from mummy Ganondorf, so they're kind-of one-and-the-same. It would certainly explain Calamity Ganon's attempt to make a new body for itself out of guardian parts. I'm more curious about the weird green hand holding mummy Ganondorf, and whether or not whatever caused that will be a main villain alongside mummy Ganondorf. 

I think that, if Zelda is playable, it'll be like Spirit Tracks where you can swap between controlling each of them and Zelda ultimately acts as Link's companion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I haven't played Hyrule Warriors, but that sounds interesting. 

Zant started as one of the worst characters gameplay-wise in HW, but like Ganondorf, he got seriously improved in updates that carried over into the 3DS and Switch ports. 

HW put a lot of love into Zant, almost every phase of his boss fight is put into his moveset, plus the Phantom Zants. He has a little gimmick where his strong attacks fill a gauge that when activated, causes his helmet to go away for like 15 seconds, during which he can pelt with dark magic bullets, or he can spinnnnnnnnnnnnn!

Personality-wise, from what I remember, he has somewhat regal and somewhat childish arrogance, not so much the Darth Vader-esque coolness he started with in TP. And, the game through presentation and gameplay likes having fun with his crazier side.

 

11 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

On TP, Zant and Ganondorf were both fine in their roles, my nitpick is that the twili were a one time show and we never learned more about them. Like, at Twilight Palace, I know those twili were still half cursed, but wouldn't it be great if they could talk to you? Perfect opportunity to drop more info.

I'd like more of the Twili and Twilight Realm too, it's underexplored as is, though ever visiting it again in Zelda would require some good explain'.

Also, the Twili weren't cursed anymore once you got the Sols/the Master Sword infused with their light.

Twili.png?version=340e4dbce0a24532ae351d

Just the pic I grabbed off of Zelda Wiki for what is presumably a child Twili. Clad in shadows, with the inorganic rune-like designs of the Twili marked upon them, similar hair color to Midna in her Twili form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, the Twili weren't cursed anymore once you got the Sols/the Master Sword infused with their light.

I think they were half cursed, because that kid looks little like Midna and Zant. Midna and Zant wear clothes and look less alien. And they can also speak, whereas the other ones can only moan like they're still in pain.

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd like more of the Twili and Twilight Realm too, it's underexplored as is, though ever visiting it again in Zelda would require some good explain'.

I personally like to imagine a sequel/after story for TP where the magical barriers of sort between the realms are dissolved by the goddesses, because Midna has proved that her people can work with the light dwellers and their prison sentence for trying to take the triforce is up. The mirror used to be the only way in and out, but now anybody can just walk in and back, or through a new portal or something. Midna and Zelda work together to mend relations, but of course there is still racism and prejudice.

But that's also very fanficy and I have learned the hard way that some people do not enjoy that, so I will end it there.

Edited by Dragoncat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Story wise, I liked the fact that Zant wasn't the big boss. The game represents fairly well that Ganondorf is significant, since Arbiter's grounds is majorly in the game for the sake of  making Ganondorf existant, as well as the portal to the twilight realm. Zant has his own agenda, and his actions are generally independent from Ganondorf's.

 

Gameplay wise, I'd just like to say that Zant is my favourite bossfight  in the whole series. (And also my favourite in general.)His fight is super fun, creative and is frequently humorous and brings back the other parts of the game.

The ganon fight was weird because on the Horseback part of the fight, the phantom soldiers he sends at you drop hearts if you hit them with your sword. I started the phase with about nine hearts and finished with full hearts.

 

I think the point of Zant is that he is Midna's antagonist, whereas Ganondorf is mostly Link's.

I haven't played TP for  about six years, so I might not be entirely correct

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dragoncat said:

I think they were half cursed, because that kid looks little like Midna and Zant. Midna and Zant wear clothes and look less alien. And they can also speak, whereas the other ones can only moan like they're still in pain.

I personally like to imagine a sequel/after story for TP where the magical barriers of sort between the realms are dissolved by the goddesses, because Midna has proved that her people can work with the light dwellers and their prison sentence for trying to take the triforce is up. The mirror used to be the only way in and out, but now anybody can just walk in and back, or through a new portal or something. Midna and Zelda work together to mend relations, but of course there is still racism and prejudice.

But that's also very fanficy and I have learned the hard way that some people do not enjoy that, so I will end it there.

Midna and Zant are also of the aristocracy, whereas the ones outside the palace are likely commoners. Furthermore, notice how Midna and Zant are also the only ones with clothes; the rest use shadows to cover their... areas. 

The problem with that is that the Twili literally cannot exist in Hyrule as anything more than a shadow anymore due to how they've adapted to living in the Twilight Realm. Midna only can do so after Zelda's magic, and Zant can only do so after receiving Ganondorf's power. That being said, while Zant was undoubtedly alone in wanting to conquer Hyrule, there probably were Twili who did want to leave. It would make sense if those that did were allowed to returned to Hyrule, enchanted so they can live in Hyrule as solid objects, occupy the desert, and eventually became the Zuna seen in Four Swords Adventures. It would make a lot of sense.

 

59 minutes ago, Benice said:

The ganon fight was weird because on the Horseback part of the fight, the phantom soldiers he sends at you drop hearts if you hit them with your sword. I started the phase with about nine hearts and finished with full hearts.

For me, that one was weird because it seemed like it couldn't decide between being a joust/melee or being a chase. 

Similarly, my issue with the Beast Ganon fight is that he transforms into this massive boar-like monster, and the first thing he does is run away from you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...