Enemy Phase Lysithea Maddening NG

[Xylaugheon Daily]

Here is a video showing off my Enemy Phase Lysithea created in New Game. I actually forgotten I was working on this until just the other day when I booted it up. It has been quite a few months. I remember there being a big debate about Lysithea's viability in Maddening due to being the glass cannon she is. I had never had trouble using her regardless, but after people started presenting their arguments, I started running test in game. I was first able to get Lysithea to Reason B by Chapter 4 without her seeing a single round of combat. Now, whether or not you think the effort is worth it is up to you.

I'll always suggest getting into Armored Knight for the 12 defense. She can grab that early enough to make it so she can survive two hits maybe? A lot better than the guaranteed OHKO she's doomed to otherwise. And because you're already there, building up her Axe and Armor Ranks isn't any trouble, allowing for a later switch into Fortress for the 17 defense. If need be, utilize a Bolt Axe. We need a D in Sword and, what, a B in Flying? The skills used are as follows:

Vantage
Wrath
Defiant Crit
Dark Tomefaire
Reason 5

she'll hover around mid 90s for crit, so there is that small window. Furthermore, without investment into her Charm she'll be eaten up by enemy gambits. Still, she has actually been quite useful and I look forward to trying out some other unorthodox builds. I've got a pretty tanky Dedue. He sits in Fortress with Quick Riposte and Alter Stance+ while wielding Sword of Moralta and a Goddess Ring. If you've any suggestions, something you're curious about but don't want to test, let me know and I'll see what I can do!

[Mjolnir]

That's an interesting build, thanks for sharing!

That said, from my experience of being near timeskip in a GD NG Maddening run and having raised Lysithea, it's not strictly necessary. Thrysus' range is so broken she doesn't really need defense since she can just nuke from a safe distance. She's often high on the list of "who gets danced this turn" as well. And with swap and reposition you can often get her out of the way as well. I find her extremely useful in Maddening despite having to take care of her positioning since she's one of the few units that can reliably 1RKO many units.

Still, your build is a creative idea and sounds like a lot of fun to play with. 🙂

 

 

[Xylaugheon Daily]

58 minutes ago, Mjolnir said:

That's an interesting build, thanks for sharing!

That said, from my experience of being near timeskip in a GD NG Maddening run and having raised Lysithea, it's not strictly necessary. Thrysus' range is so broken she doesn't really need defense since she can just nuke from a safe distance. She's often high on the list of "who gets danced this turn" as well. And with swap and reposition you can often get her out of the way as well. I find her extremely useful in Maddening despite having to take care of her positioning since she's one of the few units that can reliably 1RKO many units.

Still, your build is a creative idea and sounds like a lot of fun to play with. 🙂

 

 

I completely agree. I did this as, one, a means to combat the critique of Lysithea not having an Enemy Phase, and b, because I just really enjoy doing off the wall builds, not just to see if they work, but to see how practical they are as well. I was one of the few defending Lysithea as being not only the best magic unit, but also a top unit overall. You wouldn't believe how much of a hot take that was, and probably still is.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

well, your video conveniently has no footage for how you managed to injure Lysithea down to less than 25% health in that maddening mode auxilliary battle. You'll have to find a new enemy each map that doesn't one round her yet also meets that thin HP threshold. That searching can cause a lot of resets. A lucky pavise proc from Thyrsus is rarely enough, but a guard adjutant can certainly do the trick. Picking up Vantage is fairly low investment for Lysithea. But mastering Warrior and Wyvern Lord while also attaining S+ Reason? Woof. That's a lot of grinding. 

For a low investment version of this build, Go vantage, wrath, Battallion wrath Alois for the same 100 crit all the time by equipping him a ~50% health battallion and getting knocked below half HP. Really anybody with Battallion wrath can do the same build before level 30, but Alois is just an easy recruitment all routes have access to. Caspar, Dedue, and Raphael are also good candidates for that build due to similar skill proficiencies and not having a ton of build variety anyway, but unlike Alois might end up with pitiful stats due to rng screwage. Dimitri can also pull off the build without needing to lose health at all since he's the only character that has access to both battallion vantage and battallion wrath, but obviously he doesn't exist in every route. 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Glennstavos

[Shadow Mir]

Sorry, but I think this is way too impractical - this requires mastering Mercenary, Warrior, and Wyvern Lord, all of which require raising skills she's weak in to get into in the first place, especially Wyvern Lord, which requires investment in Axes and Lances. And getting S+ Reason on top of all this???

[Xylaugheon Daily]

9 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

well, your video conveniently has no footage for how you managed to injure Lysithea down to less than 25% health in that maddening mode auxilliary battle. You'll have to find a new enemy each map that doesn't one round her yet also meets that thin HP threshold. That searching can cause a lot of resets. A lucky pavise proc from Thyrsus is rarely enough, but a guard adjutant can certainly do the trick. Picking up Vantage is fairly low investment for Lysithea. But mastering Warrior and Wyvern Lord while also attaining S+ Reason? Woof. That's a lot of grinding. 

For a low investment version of this build, Go vantage, wrath, Battallion wrath Alois for the same 100 crit all the time by equipping him a ~50% health battallion and getting knocked below half HP. Really anybody with Battallion wrath can do the same build before level 30, but Alois is just an easy recruitment all routes have access to. Caspar, Dedue, and Raphael are also good candidates for that build due to similar skill proficiencies and not having a ton of build variety anyway, but unlike Alois might end up with pitiful stats due to rng screwage. Dimitri can also pull off the build without needing to lose health at all since he's the only character that has access to both battallion vantage and battallion wrath, but obviously he doesn't exist in every route. 

 

Oh, yes, it is a very late build. Actually getting her down has been easy thus far. So many Poison Strike archers, and they're perfect for it. Otherwise she can fish out other enemies. Mine is sitting on 22 defense from two level ups and then 3 from items. So, she falls in line pretty nicely most times. But again, this was more proof that it can be done, and within a single run.

[Xylaugheon Daily]

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sorry, but I think this is way too impractical - this requires mastering Mercenary, Warrior, and Wyvern Lord, all of which require raising skills she's weak in to get into in the first place, especially Wyvern Lord, which requires investment in Axes and Lances. And getting S+ Reason on top of all this???

It is a late game build, of course. But the only thing she's missing out on is Warp, not a concern with Linhardt. But I had this goal in mind and went for it. She saw a lot of combat in the beginning thanks to the extra bulk, Bolt Axe was great for her, and it did take quite some grinding. I wouldn't say impractical, as she could easily achieve these things as an adjutant. 

[leesangstar10]

I think being relevant through the whole game is much better than being mediocre/bad most of the game and only good late game. This is way too much investment. I would also like to mention that monsters that have magic/crit barrier, ballistas, meteor/bolting could screw this build, which is very relevant late game.

Edited January 1, 2020 by leesangstar10

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Xylaugheon Daily said:

It is a late game build, of course. But the only thing she's missing out on is Warp, not a concern with Linhardt. But I had this goal in mind and went for it. She saw a lot of combat in the beginning thanks to the extra bulk, Bolt Axe was great for her, and it did take quite some grinding. I wouldn't say impractical, as she could easily achieve these things as an adjutant. 

That's not the only issue - there's the fact that it involves a Defiant ability, which I consider Awesome but Impractical on account of the very thin HP threshold needed for them to be active. Second, you're spreading yourself thin with regard to lesson plans - having to study swords, lances, axes, heavy armour, reason AND flying, of which she has weaknesses in all except the latter two??? I'll admit, Armored Knight qualification is a big help for squishy units in general, but Fortress Knight is too much work for too little profit. And this is on Maddening, where weekly study experience is reduced. What's more, I consider the Bolt Axe way too inaccurate.

[Xylaugheon Daily]

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

I think being relevant through the whole game is much better than being mediocre/bad most of the game and only good late game. This is way too much investment. I would also like to mention that monsters that have magic/crit barrier, ballistas, meteor/bolting could screw this build, which is very relevant late game.

She is relevant the whole game. She is actually a better early unit with the boost in defense, which is easily achieved. The very first step is getting Reason to B, which can be done as early as Chapter 3, though 4 is more likely and requires less enemy hoarding on her part. She's set for nuking. You're never once forced to deployed her for combat in any class but as a caster. And yes, you have to be aware of your enemy. Like you need to on Maddening with every unit. Ive literally done it. And she works fantastic.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's not the only issue - there's the fact that it involves a Defiant ability, which I consider Awesome but Impractical on account of the very thin HP threshold needed for them to be active. Second, you're spreading yourself thin with regard to lesson plans - having to study swords, lances, axes, heavy armour, reason AND flying, of which she has weaknesses in all except the latter two??? I'll admit, Armored Knight qualification is a big help for squishy units in general, but Fortress Knight is too much work for too little profit. And this is on Maddening, where weekly study experience is reduced. What's more, I consider the Bolt Axe way too inaccurate.

Eh, I've had her die maybe five times when getting her in range. I'm currently on Chapter 18 Blue Lions with no issues, though I am fully expecting it to be harder by the last two maps. Lesson plans aren't necessary for her. She's viable with Reason alone. In tandem with auxiliary battles, it isn't a bother at all. I did often get the classes, especially by the end, with about 70%, but you get several attempts a week.

The Fortress Knight is a big investment, but you need A Axes anyway, so you don't need to rank up Armor too much more to make it work. I'm telling you, I did it. It isn't just a concept. I took the time to see if it could happen and how viable it is. Yes, it is a lot of effort, but it isn't taking anything from anyone else. Blue Lions you can't even instruct Dedue or Dimitri for so long that it wasn't even like I had to bench someone else in order to fit in her studies. Bolt Axe isn't necessary, I actually used mine very little.

In general, her Mastermind played a huge role in obtaining everything. I admit other builds with such requirements for others aren't very practicle, of which I've had a few. This was not a failure, and I felt it didn't make her too much a burden. And as I've stated in probably every reply, this was in response to people saying she couldn't be an Enemy Phase Unit, especially on Maddening. I proved my point. Whether you like it enough to use or not isn't my concern.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Xylaugheon Daily

[leesangstar10]

1 hour ago, Xylaugheon Daily said:

She is relevant the whole game. She is actually a better early unit with the boost in defense, which is easily achieved. The very first step is getting Reason to B, which can be done as early as Chapter 3, though 4 is more likely and requires less enemy hoarding on her part. She's set for nuking. You're never once forced to deployed her for combat in any class but as a caster. And yes, you have to be aware of your enemy. Like you need to on Maddening with every unit. Ive literally done it. And she works fantastic.

I dont see how she becomes relevant the whole game. What weapons would she use? She can't use spells in any of the class you listed above and using bolt axe is going to weigh her down a lot, she's going to get doubled by everything because of her piss poor strength, and its going to take a while to even use it(impossible to use early game). Non magic weapons are going to hit like a wet noodle. Additionally you are missing out on fiendish blow so making your early game even worse. I just don't see how in maddening she can really contribute much with these builds.

Ppl mainly make fun of her being a player phase exclusive unit because shes so squishy and how ppl way overrate her. To be fair every mage is a player phase exclusive unit since all of them are so squishy.

[Xylaugheon Daily]

1 hour ago, leesangstar10 said:

I dont see how she becomes relevant the whole game. What weapons would she use? She can't use spells in any of the class you listed above and using bolt axe is going to weigh her down a lot, she's going to get doubled by everything because of her piss poor strength, and its going to take a while to even use it(impossible to use early game). Non magic weapons are going to hit like a wet noodle. Additionally you are missing out on fiendish blow so making your early game even worse. I just don't see how in maddening she can really contribute much with these builds.

Ppl mainly make fun of her being a player phase exclusive unit because shes so squishy and how ppl way overrate her. To be fair every mage is a player phase exclusive unit since all of them are so squishy.

Because you only use those classes as an adjutant and/or auxiliary battles. On maps that it matters, you absolutely run her as a caster. Hence the getting to Reason B so fast.

[Agro]

10 minutes ago, Xylaugheon Daily said:

Because you only use those classes as an adjutant and/or auxiliary battles. On maps that it matters, you absolutely run her as a caster. Hence the getting to Reason B so fast.

So she's an adjutant during those battles, which means... she's not being used?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

2 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

To be fair every mage is a player phase exclusive unit since all of them are so squishy.

*Laughs in Lorenz Hellman Gloucester

But yeah most mages kind of blend together. Until the armor knights arrive, their greatest utility in my maddening experience is healing, warping, rescuing, then chip damage/linked attack bonus if none of those three are applicable. Altogether you could argue they accomplish a lot, but their weaknesses take skill to play around. Not just building a front line, but careful use of gambits will give them much freer movement. Especially early game where the most common opponents are thieves with pass. Lysithea is just so specialized in her stats and skill proficiencies that figuring out her place in maddening takes skill and more than a little luck with those hit rates.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

*Laughs in Lorenz Hellman Gloucester

*laughs at his Master of None tendencies*

Because he probably won't be a frontline mage when he's so slow that everything and their grandma doubles him.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

*laughs at his Master of None tendencies*

Because he probably won't be a frontline mage when he's so slow that everything and their grandma doubles him.

yes yes you've carefully searched every thread for the name "Lorenz" and posted your catch phrase, we know how you feel. I'm not impressed by any mage's performance thus far in maddening. I'm just pointing out Lorenz works on the frontline just fine in maddening since that's what we're actually talking about. Can't really give hard numbers on how well he tanks because enemies would always target Petra (low defense) or Ferdinand (low AS) over him. He has never been doubled, except by the enemies with ludicrous speed like pegasus knights. Lorenz' issues will always be in damage output, since actually having a strength stat mitigates the weight penalties to a point where his AS is typically identical to any other mage in the game. When he joined my party in chapter 7 he could already sling Fire spells at no penalty. He also came with Frozen lance, which made up for lack of ragnarok.

[Xylaugheon Daily]

22 hours ago, Agro said:

So she's an adjutant during those battles, which means... she's not being used?

She is still getting experience in equipped weapon, typing, and class. With the gem and Mastermind, it's actually quite impressive what she can master this way.

 

13 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

*laughs at his Master of None tendencies*

Because he probably won't be a frontline mage when he's so slow that everything and their grandma doubles him.

Sounds like a great candidate for some speed carrots, doesn't it?

 

5 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

yes yes you've carefully searched every thread for the name "Lorenz" and posted your catch phrase, we know how you feel. I'm not impressed by any mage's performance thus far in maddening. I'm just pointing out Lorenz works on the frontline just fine in maddening since that's what we're actually talking about. Can't really give hard numbers on how well he tanks because enemies would always target Petra (low defense) or Ferdinand (low AS) over him. He has never been doubled, except by the enemies with ludicrous speed like pegasus knights. Lorenz' issues will always be in damage output, since actually having a strength stat mitigates the weight penalties to a point where his AS is typically identical to any other mage in the game. When he joined my party in chapter 7 he could already sling Fire spells at no penalty. He also came with Frozen lance, which made up for lack of ragnarok.

I bet if you dedicate resources to him, he would actually be a great frontline caster. I'll play around with that idea next.

[Crysta]

If you dedicate enough resources to anyone, they can be a great frontline caster. It's that kind of game.

But Lorenz isn't slow: he literally shares the same SPD base and growths with most of the other mage units. Those who beat him in that department do so very marginally.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Crysta

[Morswo]

An very interesting build for Lysithea, I will try it in future.

In my 4 NG maddening runs was Lysithea my enemy phase tank, for the late game. She was used to be a swordmaster or a falcon knight, with sword avoid +20..
I used in my runs always a strict plan were the students had to reach skill level at a certain chapter, Lysithea got her S+ in sword during chapter 6, with the help of the priests in mock battles.
With the help of her mastermind skill is she also able to learn the needed skill levels in lance, armor, axe and flying fast. For these skills are the old missions useful, given by Seteth, Felix and the knights, so that the enemies are not able to hurt her, if she has gotten the armored knight class. 
Her strength is a weakness, but with some help is she useful enough to one hit Edelgard on Gronder Field in maddening BL. Lysithea excels with solid speed and high dexterity, so that she can still be efficient in combat, her defense can be easily pushed with the fortress knight class boost. Charm can be with the help of tea times managed.
In the end are there more powerful characters for this role, but I like it to use uncommon builds in maddening. 

Spoiler

With triangle attack is the critical rate at 100% and the chance that Edelgard is able to hit Lysithea 0%, this is an easy win for her.

[Xylaugheon Daily]

On 1/3/2020 at 12:48 AM, Crysta said:

If you dedicate enough resources to anyone, they can be a great frontline caster. It's that kind of game.

But Lorenz isn't slow: he literally shares the same SPD base and growths with most of the other mage units. Those who beat him in that department do so very marginally.

Ah, yes, let my clarify. I believe Lorenz wouldn't need much of an investment compared to the other casters.

10 hours ago, Morswo said:

An very interesting build for Lysithea, I will try it in future.

In my 4 NG maddening runs was Lysithea my enemy phase tank, for the late game. She was used to be a swordmaster or a falcon knight, with sword avoid +20..
I used in my runs always a strict plan were the students had to reach skill level at a certain chapter, Lysithea got her S+ in sword during chapter 6, with the help of the priests in mock battles.
With the help of her mastermind skill is she also able to learn the needed skill levels in lance, armor, axe and flying fast. For these skills are the old missions useful, given by Seteth, Felix and the knights, so that the enemies are not able to hurt her, if she has gotten the armored knight class. 
Her strength is a weakness, but with some help is she useful enough to one hit Edelgard on Gronder Field in maddening BL. Lysithea excels with solid speed and high dexterity, so that she can still be efficient in combat, her defense can be easily pushed with the fortress knight class boost. Charm can be with the help of tea times managed.
In the end are there more powerful characters for this role, but I like it to use uncommon builds in maddening. 

  Reveal hidden contents

With triangle attack is the critical rate at 100% and the chance that Edelgard is able to hit Lysithea 0%, this is an easy win for her.

Someone else who likes to get weird, nice!

[Geenoble]

12 hours ago, Morswo said:

An very interesting build for Lysithea, I will try it in future.

In my 4 NG maddening runs was Lysithea my enemy phase tank, for the late game. She was used to be a swordmaster or a falcon knight, with sword avoid +20..
I used in my runs always a strict plan were the students had to reach skill level at a certain chapter, Lysithea got her S+ in sword during chapter 6, with the help of the priests in mock battles.
With the help of her mastermind skill is she also able to learn the needed skill levels in lance, armor, axe and flying fast. For these skills are the old missions useful, given by Seteth, Felix and the knights, so that the enemies are not able to hurt her, if she has gotten the armored knight class. 
Her strength is a weakness, but with some help is she useful enough to one hit Edelgard on Gronder Field in maddening BL. Lysithea excels with solid speed and high dexterity, so that she can still be efficient in combat, her defense can be easily pushed with the fortress knight class boost. Charm can be with the help of tea times managed.
In the end are there more powerful characters for this role, but I like it to use uncommon builds in maddening. 

  Reveal hidden contents

With triangle attack is the critical rate at 100% and the chance that Edelgard is able to hit Lysithea 0%, this is an easy win for her.

I don’t think farming rusted weapons on priests is a viable or even remotely good strategy, but you are the second person i’ve seen make a physical Lysithea build that works. The other was Chas Aria LLC but his Lysithea got Str Blessed.

[leesangstar10]

On 1/3/2020 at 5:50 PM, Morswo said:

An very interesting build for Lysithea, I will try it in future.

In my 4 NG maddening runs was Lysithea my enemy phase tank, for the late game. She was used to be a swordmaster or a falcon knight, with sword avoid +20..
I used in my runs always a strict plan were the students had to reach skill level at a certain chapter, Lysithea got her S+ in sword during chapter 6, with the help of the priests in mock battles.
With the help of her mastermind skill is she also able to learn the needed skill levels in lance, armor, axe and flying fast. For these skills are the old missions useful, given by Seteth, Felix and the knights, so that the enemies are not able to hurt her, if she has gotten the armored knight class. 
Her strength is a weakness, but with some help is she useful enough to one hit Edelgard on Gronder Field in maddening BL. Lysithea excels with solid speed and high dexterity, so that she can still be efficient in combat, her defense can be easily pushed with the fortress knight class boost. Charm can be with the help of tea times managed.
In the end are there more powerful characters for this role, but I like it to use uncommon builds in maddening. 

  Reveal hidden contents

With triangle attack is the critical rate at 100% and the chance that Edelgard is able to hit Lysithea 0%, this is an easy win for her.

literally anybody with that much investment can be good like that. Sorry but I don't see this as a viable build considering it would have to take at least +500 turns to accomplish this. Her strength is a very big weakness, she caps at 30. Sure its fine if you use levin sword but against late game generals you are going to do nothing. Some help is an understatement. Setting up for a triangle attack requires so much effort and only really useful when going against a boss and all the enemy is dead. Also triangle attack is so bad its a meme. 

On 1/1/2020 at 11:27 PM, Xylaugheon Daily said:

Because you only use those classes as an adjutant and/or auxiliary battles. On maps that it matters, you absolutely run her as a caster. Hence the getting to Reason B so fast.

So basically you have to grind to achieve this build. Hence impossible for most players who play semi efficiently. (I say semi meaning trying to get the lowest turn count as possible but not using LTC strats like warp skip and grind little as possible)

Sure you can do whatever you want in your playthrough, having fun is whats most important. But still most people are not going to achieve these builds in a semi efficient regular playthrough on maddening NG. 

[Xylaugheon Daily]

43 minutes ago, leesangstar10 said:

So basically you have to grind to achieve this build. Hence impossible for most players who play semi efficiently. (I say semi meaning trying to get the lowest turn count as possible but not using LTC strats like warp skip and grind little as possible)

Sure you can do whatever you want in your playthrough, having fun is whats most important. But still most people are not going to achieve these builds in a semi efficient regular playthrough on maddening NG. 

Yo, dawg, it actually doesn't require much grinding at all. But I was never trying to convince anyone to use it, just proving to everyone who said it couldn't be done, that they, were in fact, just really bad at the game.

[Morswo]

14 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

literally anybody with that much investment can be good like that. Sorry but I don't see this as a viable build considering it would have to take at least +500 turns to accomplish this. Her strength is a very big weakness, she caps at 30. Sure its fine if you use levin sword but against late game generals you are going to do nothing. Some help is an understatement. Setting up for a triangle attack requires so much effort and only really useful when going against a boss and all the enemy is dead. Also triangle attack is so bad its a meme. 

So basically you have to grind to achieve this build. Hence impossible for most players who play semi efficiently. (I say semi meaning trying to get the lowest turn count as possible but not using LTC strats like warp skip and grind little as possible)

Sure you can do whatever you want in your playthrough, having fun is whats most important. But still most people are not going to achieve these builds in a semi efficient regular playthrough on maddening NG. 

Jup. Late game generals are no problem, if you use the Rapier as her sword, 35 strength are enough to kill them with this weapon very fast, heck Cornelias map was an easy solo run. 
I love the way you can make everyone everything in this game, I know its not "the best" way and in something like Lunatic+ would it be trash, but maddening isn't so hard.
Triangle attack is just fun to use, soul blade and the dancer combat art are far better to use, it wasn't my point to say that it is something good to use, I thought it is something funny and fitting the topic, since I used this in some maddening NG runs, I did now more than 8 different runs in maddening NG, I've played the game now more than 1000 hours, so I thought about new ways to play it.

[Xenovia]

It doesn't matter is Lolsithea is a glass cannon if you equip her with the Thrysus(sp) staff.  With S rank she has 5 range for magic, plus the fact that Fiendish Blow+2x tomefaire will destroy every single enemy.  Hit +20 is a better skill then Vantage then, to maximize her player phase.  Why waste your time building up her enemy phase when she's arguably the best player phase unit in the game, and probably the best Maddening unit, sue to the high amount of Assassins and Swordmasters.