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Sid Starkiller

So I FINALLY did Silver Snow...Wow...

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21 minutes ago, Julian Solo said:

Edelgard remembering Dimitri was written far Better in Azure Moon.

Which is why I still don't believe the "she doesn't remember him" thing was intended by the devs, rather a fan explanation that happens to fill a plot hole. Especially given the designs for their younger versions, it feels like the devs meant for their shared past to happen earlier in their lives, at age 9-ish rather than the 13-ish in the final game, then realized it didn't line up with the timeline of when Edelgard was living in Faerghus, and hastily rewrote it. Her forgetting him would be perfectly reasonable without needing explanation if their time together was literally half her life ago.

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5 minutes ago, Sid Starkiller said:

Which is why I still don't believe the "she doesn't remember him" thing was intended by the devs, rather a fan explanation that happens to fill a plot hole. Especially given the designs for their younger versions, it feels like the devs meant for their shared past to happen earlier in their lives, at age 9-ish rather than the 13-ish in the final game, then realized it didn't line up with the timeline of when Edelgard was living in Faerghus, and hastily rewrote it. Her forgetting him would be perfectly reasonable without needing explanation if their time together was literally half her life ago.

No, even in Black Eagles, Edelgard indicates in JP and EN version that she can't remember the name of the boy she met in Faerghus during the Goddess Tower event. Edelgard not remembering Dimitri makes perfect sense. She spent a long time imprisoned under the castle, and being torturously experimented on and watching her siblings all become crippled, lose their sanity, and die one after another. PTSD of such circumstances does, in fact, causes people to develop memory loss, or memories to become very hazy. The trauma itself is always remembered clearly, but the rest become a blur. 

The scene of Edelgard mourning Dimitri and her remembering him there is the fan speculation, but Edelgard doesn't indicate to actually remember him, but she always did care for Dimitri, so in her heart, Dimitri's death and how she had to put him down is something that she has to take.

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On 1/7/2020 at 4:23 PM, Sid Starkiller said:

She attacks the church first because she believes she needs Slither's help to defeat them. The Adrestian army is large, but when facing the Church's army and Faerghus' army and Leicester's army, she wouldn't stand a chance without Slither. You can see it in the differences between the routes: in non-CF routes, she takes full advantage of the troops and weaponry that Slither has to offer, and is on the verge of victory. In CF, she only uses the bare minimum of their power (hence why the player doesn't get to control any Demonic Beasts or actual Agarthans), and has been stuck in a stalemate for years.

One more reason why I think the CF route could easily have been longer than it was. The Adrestian Empire is up against the Church, Kingdom, and Alliance. Yes, they are divided, but they are still stronger in total than the Empire, the Empire has to fight all three of them regardless, and Edelgard's not using TWSITD nearly as much as she could be. It would still be an underdog fight; just a very different one than the usual. 

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6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

One more reason why I think the CF route could easily have been longer than it was. The Adrestian Empire is up against the Church, Kingdom, and Alliance. Yes, they are divided, but they are still stronger in total than the Empire, the Empire has to fight all three of them regardless, and Edelgard's not using TWSITD nearly as much as she could be. It would still be an underdog fight; just a very different one than the usual. 

I think what helped was the manifestos. It wasn't that the Alliance and Kingdom was against her from the getgo. In fact, through the manifestos, she was able to diplomatically win the support of many nobles in the Kingdom and Alliance, though Claude meddled with the latter, inciting internal conflict to prevent anyone from helping Edelgard. And though Edelgard managed to get part of the western portion of Faerghus, it got to a stalemate, likely from a lack of troops, hinted by her talk with Nader.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think what helped was the manifestos. It wasn't that the Alliance and Kingdom was against her from the getgo. In fact, through the manifestos, she was able to diplomatically win the support of many nobles in the Kingdom and Alliance, though Claude meddled with the latter, inciting internal conflict to prevent anyone from helping Edelgard. And though Edelgard managed to get part of the western portion of Faerghus, it got to a stalemate, likely from a lack of troops, hinted by her talk with Nader.

I guess. I just think that it wouldn't have been unnatural (and in fact would probably have been more interesting) if Crimson Flower was the same length as the other routes; if the Kingdom, Church or Alliance had managed to throw a few more curveballs that made the Empire struggle more, or if we actually got to fight TWSITD, that would've been neat. 

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9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I guess. I just think that it wouldn't have been unnatural (and in fact would probably have been more interesting) if Crimson Flower was the same length as the other routes; if the Kingdom, Church or Alliance had managed to throw a few more curveballs that made the Empire struggle more, or if we actually got to fight TWSITD, that would've been neat. 

I'm hoping for IS to reveal that they'll pull a Xenoblade 2 Torna on 3H and have it that the CF expansion will be a standalone game on its own that can be downloaded into 3H if need be.

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8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I'm hoping for IS to reveal that they'll pull a Xenoblade 2 Torna on 3H and have it that the CF expansion will be a standalone game on its own that can be downloaded into 3H if need be.

I wouldn't mind this for both SS and CF - would give the story more time to develop.  For free, too.

Hell, I wouldn't mind it if it made both SS and CF longer, chapter-wise, than AM or VW.

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15 hours ago, eclipse said:

I wouldn't mind this for both SS and CF - would give the story more time to develop.  For free, too.

Hell, I wouldn't mind it if it made both SS and CF longer, chapter-wise, than AM or VW.

Silver Snow just needs to be redone completely. I would actually have it that Rhea is made as a Julia, someone that loses her memories, and then we just fight forward with her as the "lord" more or less. 

I wanna imagine how Rhea used to be before her trauma. Losing her memories of all trauma would make her have an incredibly different personality, I would say. 

CF should be longer, honestly. If the conflict with the Agarthans is a long one, then it can't extend to just a few chapters. Hence why I imagine there can be half a Fire Emblem game, so 8-10 chapters can be dedicated to destroying them. 

Plus, the expansion can even have bonuses, where depending how you played CF, these bonuses will happen. If you spare Claude, Seteth, and Flayn, as well as defeating Dedue before he transforms, they can all join you in the battle. 

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2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

If you spare Claude, Seteth, and Flayn, as well as defeating Dedue before he transforms, they can all join you in the battle. 

I'm sorry what? There is no way in hell that Seteth Flayn and Dedue would side with Edelgard in any stretch of the imagination. I know you seem to think Edelgard is the best thing since sliced bread and so think that all characters should be down to fight for her no matter how their motives contradict, but these 3 would never join the empire. Seteth and Flayn are a part of the church and literally tell you at every occasion to stop the senseless conflict you are making. I'm assuming you are basing this of Seteth's chapter 15 dialogue where he says he cannot follow rhea on her current course. But one line earlier he also says he cannot follow you on your path either. Also they are Children of the goddess and I don't know if you ever played the game but part of Edelgard's entire mission to is to destroy the children of the goddess. She would never allow them to fight on her side, not that they would ever consider doing so in the first place.

And saying Dedue would join is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Edelgard brutally cuts down Dimitri, the man dedue has devoted his whole life to protecting and you expect Dedue to put that aside and join her? Hell no! It's more likely you would do the exact same thing as in Verdant wind and try to kill her himself. even putting aside obvious loyalties what reason does Dedue have to side with Edelgard. What motives does he share with her that would make him fight the church and the rest of the kingdom instead of killing her for Dimitri - his entire reason to live.

And even saying Claude could join is a stretch. He may agree with her goals but he makes it explicitly in Verdant wind that he does not agree with her actions at all. Hence why he tries to fight against her. If Claude doesn't even join in Blue lions when they are allies, then saying he'd join in Crimson flower after Edelgard invaded his country is ridiculous. Crimson Flower already has enough problems with characters that don't make sense being playable, this ones are just pushing it even further.

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Only reason Dedue would "join" the empire is to kill Edelgard when time is right to avenge Dimitri, like a reversed Fleche.

In reality he is loyal to none but Dimitri alone, as in SS/VW he would not join Byleth even if the two shared the same goal of bringing down Edelgard.

 

As for Children of Goddess, while Edelgard might have considered sparing them in some dialogue,(particular the one in teaching session) the order she gave was clearly to kill them all:

1. If you strike down Seteth/Flayn with anyone but Byleth, including using Edelgard, they would die, implying all other characters were ordered to kill them. Sparing them is solely Byleth defying the order yet due to them being above regular chain of command thus free from court martial.

Also, the game never hint you that you could spare both of them until you battle them as Byleth, so their chance to survive was probably not very high.

2. After Linhardt's paralouge, he beg you not to tell Edelgard about St. Indech, fearing she would kill him if she found out his hiding location. Suggesting even her close circle believes Edelgard is planning to kill all the dragons, even those who do not involve in human politics.

Edited by Timlugia

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3 hours ago, SpiceMan said:

I'm sorry what? There is no way in hell that Seteth Flayn and Dedue would side with Edelgard in any stretch of the imagination. I know you seem to think Edelgard is the best thing since sliced bread and so think that all characters should be down to fight for her no matter how their motives contradict, but these 3 would never join the empire. Seteth and Flayn are a part of the church and literally tell you at every occasion to stop the senseless conflict you are making. I'm assuming you are basing this of Seteth's chapter 15 dialogue where he says he cannot follow rhea on her current course. But one line earlier he also says he cannot follow you on your path either. Also they are Children of the goddess and I don't know if you ever played the game but part of Edelgard's entire mission to is to destroy the children of the goddess. She would never allow them to fight on her side, not that they would ever consider doing so in the first place.

And saying Dedue would join is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Edelgard brutally cuts down Dimitri, the man dedue has devoted his whole life to protecting and you expect Dedue to put that aside and join her? Hell no! It's more likely you would do the exact same thing as in Verdant wind and try to kill her himself. even putting aside obvious loyalties what reason does Dedue have to side with Edelgard. What motives does he share with her that would make him fight the church and the rest of the kingdom instead of killing her for Dimitri - his entire reason to live.

And even saying Claude could join is a stretch. He may agree with her goals but he makes it explicitly in Verdant wind that he does not agree with her actions at all. Hence why he tries to fight against her. If Claude doesn't even join in Blue lions when they are allies, then saying he'd join in Crimson flower after Edelgard invaded his country is ridiculous. Crimson Flower already has enough problems with characters that don't make sense being playable, this ones are just pushing it even further.

I'm sorry what? You're kind of missing a huge point in every side. Also, I do not like the tone you are using, so please lay off on the insults.

Claude already said after being spared that he'll repay the debt to her, so that's already a guarantee that he'll join. Plus, Claude's always been someone that had ideals that was close to Edelgard's. Edelgard herself pointed this out in VW. It's why Claude is able to basically reveal to Edelgard that he's Almyran through summoning the Almyran reinforcements. 

Seteth and Flayn are obviously Children of the Goddess, but for the record, it's not actually if Byleth defeats them, but rather Byleth has to actually get first combat with Flayn. I believe either Seteth or Flayn don't need to be defeated strictly by Byleth, but I have been told by someone that played CF that if Byleth manages to talk to Flayn, then she can be defeated and she'll retreat, along with Seteth. I can reconfirm this later myself, so I'll double check. 

As for joining Edelgard, keep in mind that Edelgard is fighting against the Agarthans, the enemy of both humans and Nabateans. So regardless of their own personal issues with Edelgard, they would not allow for the Agarthans to remain a threat. BTW, Edelgard never has a desire to kill them all. Even Rhea, in Chapter 18, she asked for Rhea's surrender, and in a lecture question, Edelgard asked that if Rhea surrendered, what would they do with her, the answer that she likes is to strip Rhea of her power. In other words, Edelgard has no problems with the Children of the Goddess being alive, just so long as they don't rule over humanity. Edelgard gave Rhea a chance, and Rhea responded by setting Fhirdiad on fire. Rhea gave Edelgard no choice in the end but to kill her once and for all.

Now for Dedue, the Agarthans are also responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur, meaning that obviously, they are the true object of revenge for Dimitri that died in his misguided and foolish beliefs by blaming Edelgard for it. Dedue, being the faithful vassal of Dimitri would want to lay his soul to rest by destroying the enemy that had truly forced him onto this path that led to his own doom. 

8 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

Only reason Dedue would "join" the empire is to kill Edelgard when time is right to avenge Dimitri, like a reversed Fleche.

In reality he is loyal to none but Dimitri alone, as in SS/VW he would not join Byleth even if the two shared the same goal of bringing down Edelgard.

 

As for Children of Goddess, while Edelgard might have considered sparing them in some dialogue,(particular the one in teaching session) the order she gave was clearly to kill them all:

1. If you strike down Seteth/Flayn with anyone but Byleth, including using Edelgard, they would die, implying all other characters were ordered to kill them. Sparing them is solely Byleth defying the order yet due to them being above regular chain of command thus free from court martial.

Also, the game never hint you that you could spare both of them until you battle them as Byleth, so their chance to survive was probably not very high.

2. After Linhardt's paralouge, he beg you not to tell Edelgard about St. Indech, fearing she would kill him if she found out his hiding location. Suggesting even her close circle believes Edelgard is planning to kill all the dragons, even those who do not involve in human politics.

As I said above, the Agarthans are the ones that manipulated Dimitri into opposing Edelgard by instigating the Tragedy of Duscur. 

As for the Children of the Goddess, I already pointed the above as well. Also, they actually DO hint that Byleth is the reason to be able to be spared, when Flayn mentions how she doesn't want to oppose the Professor. 

As for Linhardts paralogue, are you making stuff up now or what? Because what you literally said is an outright lie.

Quote

Linhardt: If we're going now, I do suggest leaving Edelgard and Hubert innocent of our quest. Lake Teutates is a place that concerns the saints of the Church of Seiros. It may become bothersome should the two of them find out...

Nothing about what you said is remotely close to what Linhardt actually says. I get you dislike El, but don't make up lies like that.

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42 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

As for joining Edelgard, keep in mind that Edelgard is fighting against the Agarthans, the enemy of both humans and Nabateans.

Here's the thing, though - Edelgard is fighting for the Agarthans. She may have different reasons, and be bound to them by curcumstance rather than choice, but she's ultimately working toward the same goal as the Agarthans - namely, to dismantle the Church of Seiros. By fighting the war alongside them, she allows them to spread their influence and gain power (see: Arundel collecting Hero's Relics in the Alliance). She plans to take it from them, and does so in the Epilogue, but her gambit could have very easily turned the other way (in which, after uniting the continent, Edelgard and Byleth are assassinated by Those Who Slither, who now have no obstacles to their rule).

 

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

CF should be longer, honestly. If the conflict with the Agarthans is a long one, then it can't extend to just a few chapters. Hence why I imagine there can be half a Fire Emblem game, so 8-10 chapters can be dedicated to destroying them. 

This sounds really... boring, honestly. Those Who Slither are such a poor villain, and one of the strengths of CF is how their antagonists are overall sympathetic. Plus, the climax of Edelgard's journey is finally confronting Dimitri (with the Rhea fight a tense conclusion, but on the "falling action" side), so adding 8 to 10 chapters beyond that would drag the story way beyond its welcome (and if fit before, would prolong the important stuff).

Spoiler

Maybe they could fit two chapters of it in, wherein Arundel betrays Edelgard and takes the throne, so she has to set things right by coming back to Enbarr. Not sure how to make it work best within the narrative, though.

 

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16 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's the thing, though - Edelgard is fighting for the Agarthans. She may have different reasons, and be bound to them by curcumstance rather than choice, but she's ultimately working toward the same goal as the Agarthans - namely, to dismantle the Church of Seiros. By fighting the war alongside them, she allows them to spread their influence and gain power (see: Arundel collecting Hero's Relics in the Alliance). She plans to take it from them, and does so in the Epilogue, but her gambit could have very easily turned the other way (in which, after uniting the continent, Edelgard and Byleth are assassinated by Those Who Slither, who now have no obstacles to their rule).

Not quite. The Agarthans want the genocide and death of the Children of the Goddess, especially Rhea. Edelgard didn't seek their death, and doesn't actually want to kill them. She would prefer to be able to spare them under the condition that they no longer try to meddle into human affairs, given what Rhea had done to Fodlan. Hence why Edelgard tries to get Rhea to surrender peacefully, and why she asks for the possibility of sparing Rhea. Because Edelgard has always been someone that would try to avoid killing if it's an option. 

Also, keep in mind that Edelgard has been undermining them and focused on preventing them from spreading their power.

Not just by killing Cornelia, but also by having Hubert investigate the Agarthans, and Jeritza covertly destroying Agarthan bases, as we get a covert mission to destroy an Agarthan base, which actually has the enemies be called "Agarthan". 

Trying to say that it could easily backfire ignores that Edelgard's not an idiot and has been preparing herself the entire time.

16 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This sounds really... boring, honestly. Those Who Slither are such a poor villain, and one of the strengths of CF is how their antagonists are overall sympathetic. Plus, the climax of Edelgard's journey is finally confronting Dimitri (with the Rhea fight a tense conclusion, but on the "falling action" side), so adding 8 to 10 chapters beyond that would drag the story way beyond its welcome (and if fit before, would prolong the important stuff).

Why would you think that? With the Agarthans, you have a chance of exploring their side of the story through a confrontation. If they got advanced science on them, they likely have actual video records about the truth of the past, and learning what the Agarthans are, whether they are actually humans or not, or about why they hate Rhea. We might even learn what happened to Patricia as well. 

I wouldn't exactly rule out and say that the Agarthans actually having a much more full confrontation would be a drag. 

Edited by omegaxis1

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

As I said above, the Agarthans are the ones that manipulated Dimitri into opposing Edelgard by instigating the Tragedy of Duscur. 

As for Linhardts paralogue, are you making stuff up now or what? Because what you literally said is an outright lie.

Nothing about what you said is remotely close to what Linhardt actually says. I get you dislike El, but don't make up lies like that.

What has Agarthan to do with where Dedue's loyalty lies?

In CF Dimitri and Dedue never learned the truth. You know the truth because you have fourth wall knowledge of both cutscenes and other routes, that isn't going to happen for Dedue.

It's also impossible for Edelgard to reveal it to Dedue, which would require her completely lay open about her secrets and nature of TWISTD, to someone who's basically her enemy. She wouldn't even tell her own Black Eagle friends about TWISTD and had to lie about Javelin of Light. Even she did, there is nothing she could prove it. Dedue isn't going to take her words for truth.

Quote

Linhardt: If we're going now, I do suggest leaving Edelgard and Hubert innocent of our quest. Lake Teutates is a place that concerns the saints of the Church of Seiros. It may become bothersome should the two of them find out...

What do you mean I made up lies?

Why do you think it would be "bothersome" if Edelgard find out about Lake Teutates and Indech? Why do you think Linhardt didn't want them to know?

Your own citation is proving that Linhardt was worrying what Edelgard would do if she found out about Indech.

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2 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

What has Agarthan to do with where Dedue's loyalty lies?

In CF Dimitri and Dedue never learned the truth. You know the truth because you have fourth wall knowledge of both cutscenes and other routes, that isn't going to happen for Dedue.

It's also impossible for Edelgard to reveal it to Dedue, which would require her completely lay open about her secrets and nature of TWISTD, to someone who's basically her enemy. She wouldn't even tell her own Black Eagle friends about TWISTD and had to lie about Javelin of Light. Even she did, there is nothing she could prove it. Dedue isn't going to take her words for truth.

Edelgard and her friends fight the Agarthans. It ain't a solo fight. 

And what's wrong with telling Dedue now that they are going out to confront them? Telling him that the ones that actually orchestrated the death of Lambert, which caused Dimitri's insanity, which caused the genocide of his people, were the Agarthans. So if Dedue really is out to avenge Dimitri's death, the target can be persuaded to know that it's not truly Edelgard, but the Agarthans, since they are the ones that put Dimitri on the path that led to his death. 

Unlike Dimitri, who lacks the common sense to know that a 13 year old girl can't possibly be responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur, Dedue isn't as foolish, just incredibly loyal. Whether he would believe her or not, that's HIS choice. If he is capable of understanding the bigger picture, he would know that Edelgard is not the one that needs to be taken down. Though he would hate her still. 

7 minutes ago, Timlugia said:

What do you mean I made up lies?

Why do you think it would be "bothersome" if Edelgard find out about Lake Teutates and Indech? Why do you think Linhardt didn't want them to know?

Your own citation is proving that Linhardt was worrying what Edelgard would do if she found out about Indech.

No, because nothing about that would mean, "Edelgard would kill Indech". Hell, Linhardt didn't even know about Indech being there or what Indech was.

Edelgard wouldn't kill Indech, for that matter even if she did know, since she's only out to remove dragons from human affairs. But since the story requires Edelgard to never understand Rhea, since the last confrontation is her accusing Rhea of not truly caring for human life, Edelgard and Rhea are never to understand one another. Meeting Indech is basically something that would involve her asking questions and trying to understand the Nabateans and Rhea by extension. 

So yeah, making up lies about Linhardt saying that Edelgard would go on some killing spree. 

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9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Silver Snow just needs to be redone completely. I would actually have it that Rhea is made as a Julia, someone that loses her memories, and then we just fight forward with her as the "lord" more or less. 

I wanna imagine how Rhea used to be before her trauma. Losing her memories of all trauma would make her have an incredibly different personality, I would say. 

CF should be longer, honestly. If the conflict with the Agarthans is a long one, then it can't extend to just a few chapters. Hence why I imagine there can be half a Fire Emblem game, so 8-10 chapters can be dedicated to destroying them.

Not sure how SS would pan out, but it needs its own identity.  Being a cheap VW clone is a huge disservice to the church IMO.

CF would be a lot more interesting if the dark dealings of the church had time to come to light.  It would make Edel's cause a little more sympathetic.  Now throw in the Agarthians (who have decided that it's time to betray Edel), and it could turn into a very interesting three-faction war (much like how the three houses were in the school phase).

9 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Plus, the expansion can even have bonuses, where depending how you played CF, these bonuses will happen. If you spare Claude, Seteth, and Flayn, as well as defeating Dedue before he transforms, they can all join you in the battle. 

Claude - if you spare him, then yeah.

Seteth/Flayn - unless there was some damning evidence against the church (like Rhea knew who they were and wanted to exploit Flayn), this probably wouldn't happen.  Though if they opened up a different version of a chapter or two because they were alive, that would be a nice compromise.

Dedue - The only way this could possibly work is if something ELSE threatened his homeland (like the Slithers), and Dimitri was unable to assist.  Even then, the most I can see is maybe an extra battalion.

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is this one of those let's just turn every 3 houses thread into edelgard good, rhea bad situations?

Anyways not to derail what the thread was intended for, I definitely agree Silver Snow is just lacking overall. VW is basically a carbon copy of SS (vice versa) bar 1 chapter but, VW is more or less carried by Claude's charisma which makes it more interesting in a way. Rhea being another damsel in distress (for the 3rd time in a row) was a big letdown since the game barely gives her much content overall, and the content we get that focuses on Rhea shows her crazy manakete side so we never really get to see the flip side on Rhea until the very end. I don't really mind that there isn't a lord, since I guess Seteth/Flayn take over that role and get more screentime but, I always felt that the BE felt lost without Edelgard being around. Bernedetta, Dorothea, and Linhardt are just kind of there honestly, their reasons for joining the professor is clearly because they wanted to follow Byleth and trust their judgement. Caspar is there to cut his own path in a way by defying the empire, similarly to Petra in a way but after the reunion chapter, they get less and less screentime and they just chime in occasionally in the background. The whole Ferdinand dilemma is also weird since Ferdinand knows his dad is a corrupt noble (moreso after his paralogue) but still gets unhappy that his dad lost his title (which I guess meant that Ferdinand lost his title in a way too). I wished SS focused more on the KoS units and staff if they really wanted a group of people to focus on.

The conversation leading to the final boss fight was also kind of random, mainly because of the 1 month time gap before Rhea decides she's ready to tell the truth and conveniently turns in the Immaculate One for the finale. Route overall just feels lacking. I feel that the final bosses of VW and SS should've switched with each other.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Not sure how SS would pan out, but it needs its own identity.  Being a cheap VW clone is a huge disservice to the church IMO.

CF would be a lot more interesting if the dark dealings of the church had time to come to light.  It would make Edel's cause a little more sympathetic.  Now throw in the Agarthians (who have decided that it's time to betray Edel), and it could turn into a very interesting three-faction war (much like how the three houses were in the school phase).

Actually, it's the other way around. When you get down to it, VW is the clone of SS. That Edelgard scene, the missile and Shambhala scenes, they all seem clear to be about Silver Snow. 

The Church was already showing pretty well of Rhea's extreme and harsh judgments from the getgo. Like, we literally talk about how we killed civilians, and Rhea's all chill. We also see how society is messed up cause of Crests, and how Rhea is trying to silence information that could be damaging. It's quite hypocritical in the end. 

Edelgard's cause was always for the right reasons. Rhea had to go. 

4 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Claude - if you spare him, then yeah.

Seteth/Flayn - unless there was some damning evidence against the church (like Rhea knew who they were and wanted to exploit Flayn), this probably wouldn't happen.  Though if they opened up a different version of a chapter or two because they were alive, that would be a nice compromise.

Dedue - The only way this could possibly work is if something ELSE threatened his homeland (like the Slithers), and Dimitri was unable to assist.  Even then, the most I can see is maybe an extra battalion.

Seteth and Flayn left to be in exile. But given how Seteth knows about the Agarthans, even remarking in SS how the fight from the past is not over, I would say similar case is here. Edelgard has no plans of killing them, so they might be willing to join together for a common cause.

Dedue's case, well, Dimitri ultimately went on the path he was in, along with the genocide of Duscur, was because of the regicide that the Agarthans were responsible for. If Dedue is willing to listen to the reason, then even if he does bear hatred for Edelgard, he would help her destroy the Agarthans and avenge Dimitri, as well as the people that died in the Tragedy. 

It's kind of the case where just as Edelgard was willing to work with the Agarthans to defeat the common enemy, Rhea, now Edelgard has Seteth, Flayn, and Dedue working with her to destroy the common enemy. It's a reflection of how, for the sake of the bigger picture, they put aside their personal feelings aside for the greater good.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard and her friends fight the Agarthans. It ain't a solo fight. 

And what's wrong with telling Dedue now that they are going out to confront them? Telling him that the ones that actually orchestrated the death of Lambert, which caused Dimitri's insanity, which caused the genocide of his people, were the Agarthans. So if Dedue really is out to avenge Dimitri's death, the target can be persuaded to know that it's not truly Edelgard, but the Agarthans, since they are the ones that put Dimitri on the path that led to his death. 

Unlike Dimitri, who lacks the common sense to know that a 13 year old girl can't possibly be responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur, Dedue isn't as foolish, just incredibly loyal. Whether he would believe her or not, that's HIS choice. If he is capable of understanding the bigger picture, he would know that Edelgard is not the one that needs to be taken down. Though he would hate her still. 

If Edelgard wouldn't even tell her own circle about Agarthan, why would she tell Dedue? You are suggesting something so out of her character here.

Dimitri also isn't insane in CF nor he ordered genocide against Duscur. Dimitri was actually the one defending Duscar from accusation.  Just like Edelgard was 13 and couldn't plot the assassination, Dimitri was also 13 and couldn't order a genocide. The Part One made it clear that Dimitri had no political or military power in the Kingdom. In fact Cornelia could have Dimitri arrest and attempted in execution by made out treason already proven Dimitri has no authority in the government. The kingdom was ruled by Duke Rufus of Itha during the war with Duscar, and Dimitri didn't fight his first battle until two years later. If an actual order of massacre was given, it's either Rufus or Kleiman.

And again, what evidence she could produce here for convince Dedue to switch sides? Not even Rhea or Seteth, knows well about Agarthans, yet you think Dedue is suddenly going to believe Edelgard on some never-heard-of boogieman group plotting out everything for past 20 years? Right after she executed Dimitri?

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Edelgard wouldn't kill Indech, for that matter even if she did know, since she's only out to remove dragons from human affairs. But since the story requires Edelgard to never understand Rhea, since the last confrontation is her accusing Rhea of not truly caring for human life, Edelgard and Rhea are never to understand one another. Meeting Indech is basically something that would involve her asking questions and trying to understand the Nabateans and Rhea by extension.

So what human affairs were Flayn involved into? Her ending in all routes explicitly states she didn't get into politics even if she's married to Byleth or other great lords, but remain as a healer.

Yet in the most blind playthrough she would die unless happened to be engaged by anyone but Byleth

If Edelgard was keen to spare her, she would have given the order, or at least the game should give the option like with Lythesia or Claude, no? The fact that she only survives by triggering a hidden condition (which the game didn't hint you) suggests their survival was not a normal occurrence.

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No, because nothing about that would mean, "Edelgard would kill Indech". Hell, Linhardt didn't even know about Indech being there or what Indech was.

Again, why would Linhardt ask you to keep the mission in secret if he wasn't expecting Indect or that harm could befall on him?

It's just a trip to dig out some fancy bow in a lake, no? What the big deal if Edelgard just want to speak to a giant turtle?

 

Another evidence is that if you killed Seteth or Flayn in chapter 15, the paralouge would be unavailable. Why? Probably because Linhardt wouldn't tell you about the lake in the first place to protect Indech.

 

In conclusion, Edelgard never ordered to spare either Seteth or Flayn, despite the later never was involved in government, their survival was solely depends on Byleth. And Linhardt was afraid for Indech should  Edelgard found out, makes me believe Edelgard was keen to kill Children of Goddess she came across to.

Edited by Timlugia

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2 hours ago, Lunarly said:

The conversation leading to the final boss fight was also kind of random, mainly because of the 1 month time gap before Rhea decides she's ready to tell the truth and conveniently turns in the Immaculate One for the finale. Route overall just feels lacking. I feel that the final bosses of VW and SS should've switched with each other.

That only happens if you refuse to talk to Seteth for the whole month, otherwise you can skip it.

 

Also, here's a more realistic Golden Ending than whatever sort of FF @omegaxis1 is writing

 

 

 

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Give me the route where we side with the Agarthans! They ultimately have humanities best interests at heart. Bring on the techno age baby!

8 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Now for Dedue, the Agarthans are also responsible for the Tragedy of Duscur, meaning that obviously, they are the true object of revenge for Dimitri that died in his misguided and foolish beliefs by blaming Edelgard for it. Dedue, being the faithful vassal of Dimitri would want to lay his soul to rest by destroying the enemy that had truly forced him onto this path that led to his own doom. 

Dedue could certainly be motivated to fight the Agarthans in a scenario where he found out about their role in Duscur...but if in the same scenario Edelgard literally killed Dimitri there's no way he'd join her. He would go after the Agarthans single handedly, just like he goes after Edelgard single handedly in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow, despite the fact that in that route his potential allies have never done anything to offend him. Killing Dimitri is not something he'd be able to get over. No matter what, that was still something Edelgard decided to do on her own free will and Dedue has zero reason to forgive her for it. Giving him an extra enemy is not going to make him think a previous enemy is any less evil. The enemy of my enemy is my friend can only go so far.

Edited by Jotari

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5 hours ago, Lunarly said:

is this one of those let's just turn every 3 houses thread into edelgard good, rhea bad situations?

It wasn't my intent, even if that's how I personally feel. I was just so pissed off about the twist I needed to rant a bit. A good rant is healthy once in a while.

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5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

If Edelgard wouldn't even tell her own circle about Agarthan, why would she tell Dedue? You are suggesting something so out of her character here.

Dimitri also isn't insane in CF nor he ordered genocide against Duscur. Dimitri was actually the one defending Duscar from accusation.  Just like Edelgard was 13 and couldn't plot the assassination, Dimitri was also 13 and couldn't order a genocide. The Part One made it clear that Dimitri had no political or military power in the Kingdom. In fact Cornelia could have Dimitri arrest and attempted in execution by made out treason already proven Dimitri has no authority in the government. The kingdom was ruled by Duke Rufus of Itha during the war with Duscar, and Dimitri didn't fight his first battle until two years later. If an actual order of massacre was given, it's either Rufus or Kleiman.

And again, what evidence she could produce here for convince Dedue to switch sides? Not even Rhea or Seteth, knows well about Agarthans, yet you think Dedue is suddenly going to believe Edelgard on some never-heard-of boogieman group plotting out everything for past 20 years? Right after she executed Dimitri?

Dude, once again, they fight the Agarthans at the end. Like, really? You think that her friends aren't gonna take part in the fight against the Agarthans? Hanneman literally talks about how they would no doubt confront them after the war against the Church. And by the time that she is facing the Agarthans, the need to hide the information from Dedue is pointless, so you're actually mixing up circumstances here.

I'm sorry, what? Never ONCE did I say Dimitri ordered the genocide. Where did you get that logic? The Agarthans performed the regicide, which is what caused Faerghus to commit genocide of Duscur. Dude, now this is you lying and making some BS up. Pay attention. And CF Dimitri is STILL an insane Dimitri. Not being a murder hobo like in the other routes isn't Dimitri being sane. He's just not AS insane. He's still someone that was obsessed with the desire for revenge for Edelgard being the one behind the Tragedy of Duscur, and is incapable of reason.

Because they WOULD be fighting the Agarthans in this extended route. If Dedue comes to fight against Edelgard, Edelgard can confront him and tell him, and make it his own choice. Unless you're gonna go and believe that Dedue would side with the Agarthans, which is hysterical. 

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

So what human affairs were Flayn involved into? Her ending in all routes explicitly states she didn't get into politics even if she's married to Byleth or other great lords, but remain as a healer.

Sister of Seteth, who is Rhea's right hand man. Her not being in politics isn't the issue when her brother very much was.

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Yet in the most blind playthrough she would die unless happened to be engaged by anyone but Byleth

You have to have Byleth talk to her in the battle first, where she says that if she survives, they would move into exile. As I said, this was proven by another person that played Crimson Flower. Even confirmed that the main factor is to talk to her with Byleth.

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

If Edelgard was keen to spare her, she would have given the order, or at least the game should give the option like with Lythesia or Claude, no? The fact that she only survives by triggering a hidden condition (which the game didn't hint you) suggests their survival was not a normal occurrence.

The reason Edelgard isn't given the option to spare them is cause the one that they are indebted to is Byleth, not Edelgard. Hence why Byleth needs to be the one that talks to them. Pay attention, dude. They literally say it as such in the chapter, how Flayn wishes not to conflict with Byleth.

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Again, why would Linhardt ask you to keep the mission in secret if he wasn't expecting Indect or that harm could befall on him?

Because Linhardt has legit no clue that Indech was actually living there. What's there is just some legend about a weapon connected to the Saints. Nothing about Indech living there. 

5 hours ago, Timlugia said:

Another evidence is that if you killed Seteth or Flayn in chapter 15, the paralouge would be unavailable. Why? Probably because Linhardt wouldn't tell you about the lake in the first place to protect Indech.

Once again, I cannot believe I am stressing this so much, Linhardt only knows that there's a weapon there, but has absolutely no idea that Indech is living there. 

 

3 hours ago, CyberNinja said:

Also, here's a more realistic Golden Ending than whatever sort of FF @omegaxis1 is writing

Very funny. Is it like the FF of anyone thinking that Dimitri accidentally destroyed the Agarthans? 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Dedue could certainly be motivated to fight the Agarthans in a scenario where he found out about their role in Duscur...but if in the same scenario Edelgard literally killed Dimitri there's no way he'd join her. He would go after the Agarthans single handedly, just like he goes after Edelgard single handedly in Verdant Wind and Silver Snow, despite the fact that in that route his potential allies have never done anything to offend him. Killing Dimitri is not something he'd be able to get over. No matter what, that was still something Edelgard decided to do on her own free will and Dedue has zero reason to forgive her for it. Giving him an extra enemy is not going to make him think a previous enemy is any less evil. The enemy of my enemy is my friend can only go so far.

Probably. Whether he is only a green unit ally or a playable one is debatable. The point is, for the time being, Dedue might be willing to put aside his hatred for Edelgard to defeat the true enemy.

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I actually think that Dedue would, in order of priority: 1) commit suiced by Edelgard's army, 2) join the agarthans againist Edelgard, 3)Join Edelgard againist the agarthans.

Dimitri definitely told Dedue that Edelgard took part in the tragedy, so from his perspective the situation is: " do i side whit the people that commit the tragedy of Duscur or whit the person that commit the tragedy of Duscur AND killed Dimitri?"

We, the audience, know that Edelgard did nothing, Dimitri and Dedue does not.

34 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Very funny. Is it like the FF of anyone thinking that Dimitri accidentally destroyed the Agarthans? 

I don't think anyone destroyed the Agarthan because i don't think all the Agarthan lives in the same cave and i doubt any lord slaughtered children and noncombatants because they are agarthan. The Slithers will come back regardless of the route imo. Dimitri killed their leaders, wich means they can't do much in his lifetime, but they will recover the fastest.

wich is meaningless because 5 years of war made Fodlan extremely vulnerable to a Dagda invasion..

Edited by Flere210

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2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I don't think anyone destroyed the Agarthan because i don't think all the Agarthan lives in the same cave and i doubt any lord slaughtered children and noncombatants because they are agarthan. The Slityer will come back regardless of the route imo. Dimitri killed their leaders, wich means they can't do much in his lifetime, but they will recover the fastest.

Dimitri actually didn't. Cause despite Verdant Wind having destroyed not only the Shambhala, but also killed more named Agarthans than Dimitri had, and still, in Claude/Byleth's paired ending, it's revealed that the Agarthans not only lived, but had enough power that by working with the Imperial army remnants, nearly overtook Derdriu, despite God-Byleth being a thing, and this after only the course of a few months.

With Jeritza, it's now 100% confirmed that the battle against the Agarthans is one that resulted in the total annihilation of the Agarthans, as Edelgard had them all wiped out.

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