So I FINALLY did Silver Snow...Wow...

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I actually think that Dedue would, in order of priority: 1) commit suiced by Edelgard's army, 2) join the agarthans againist Edelgard, 3)Join Edelgard againist the agarthans.

Dimitri definitely told Dedue that Edelgard took part in the tragedy, so from his perspective the situation is: " do i side whit the people that commit the tragedy of Duscur or whit the person that commit the tragedy of Duscur AND killed Dimitri?"

We, the audience, know that Edelgard did nothing, Dimitri and Dedue does not.

I don't think anyone destroyed the Agarthan because i don't think all the Agarthan lives in the same cave and i doubt any lord slaughtered children and noncombatants because they are agarthan. The Slityer will come back regardless of the route imo. Dimitri killed their leaders, wich means they can't do much in his lifetime, but they will recover the fastest.

wich is meaningless because 5 years of war made Fodlan extremely vulnerable to a Dagda invasion..

Verdant Wind confirms that the Slithers are still out there in Claude's ending, and that's the route where you actually do storm their base and kill all their leadership. I don't particularly like that as a plot point, throwing on what sounds like an entire game as a tacked on ending, but it is canon. That they still exist in Blue Lions is all but guaranteed. 

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dimitri actually didn't. Cause despite Verdant Wind having destroyed not only the Shambhala, but also killed more named Agarthans than Dimitri had, and still, in Claude/Byleth's paired ending, it's revealed that the Agarthans not only lived, but had enough power that by working with the Imperial army remnants, nearly overtook Derdriu, despite God-Byleth being a thing, and this after only the course of a few months.

With Jeritza, it's now 100% confirmed that the battle against the Agarthans is one that resulted in the total annihilation of the Agarthans, as Edelgard had them all wiped out.

Endings are always framed as historical chronicles and not a direct relating of fact. Seems just as possible the Agarthans managed to get the upper hand in the shadow war. A lot of the endings of Crimson Flower center around the characters "vanishing from the public eye after electing a successor," which sounds like it could easily could be Slitherers at work.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Jotari

[Flere210]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

With Jeritza, it's now 100% confirmed that the battle against the Agarthans is one that resulted in the total annihilation of the Agarthans, as Edelgard had them all wiped out.

Wich i don't consider golden at all if that include noncombatant and children. Mole people are still people.

Also, i know that Dimitri did not destroy the Slithers, but he declawed them fornthe time being. A full scale genocide of the agarthans is something i don't think happen in any route and i would consider it an horrible thing if it happen, because not all of them plotted to destroy Fodlan. It's actually like the orc baby dilemma now that i think about it.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Flere210

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Wich i don't consider golden at all if that include noncombatant and children. Mole people are still people.

Also, i know that Dimitri did not destroy the Slithers, but he declawed them fornthe time being. A full scale genocide of the Agarthan is something i think don't happen and i would consider it an horrible thing if it happen in any route, because not all of them plotted to destroy Fodlan. It's actually like the orc baby dilemma now that i think about it.

Wow, this is new. Defending the Agarthans. Honestly, it's pretty clear that they are a completely irredeemable bunch. They are pretty much enemies that are consumed with a desire for revenge, like a worse version of Dimitri. If after multiple millennia, they still can't stop hating, there's no saving them. 

So long as they live, they will always plot revenge and destabilize things.

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Endings are always framed as historical chronicles and not a direct relating of fact. Seems just as possible the Agarthans managed to get the upper hand in the shadow war. A lot of the endings of Crimson Flower center around the characters "vanishing from the public eye after electing a successor," which sounds like it could easily could be Slitherers at work.

Not sure where you get that they "vanished from the public eye" from when that's not actually how most endings are framed at all. 

Keep in mind that the battle against the Agarthans is kept a secret from the public eye, as it's meant to be a silent and unseen struggle. So even the case of historic event, its not a case that history would even know of their existence. Hence why Ferdinand's Byleth ending has it written that his battle against the Agarthans is something that is left unwritten for his life.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Wich i don't consider golden at all if that include noncombatant and children. Mole people are still people.

Also, i know that Dimitri did not destroy the Slithers, but he declawed them fornthe time being. A full scale genocide of the agarthans is something i don't think happen in any route and i would consider it an horrible thing if it happen, because not all of them plotted to destroy Fodlan. It's actually like the orc baby dilemma now that i think about it.

Also seems to me it's likely that Edelgard herself is part Agarathan considering her uncle seems to be one and her mother turned to Cornelia for help to arrange the whole Duscur thing. Though it is possible Arundel was a kill and replace OP, though given how much they've manipulated basically every aspect of Edelgard's life, literally giving birth to her doesn't seem off the table either.

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wow, this is new. Defending the Agarthans. Honestly, it's pretty clear that they are a completely irredeemable bunch. They are pretty much enemies that are consumed with a desire for revenge, like a worse version of Dimitri. If after multiple millennia, they still can't stop hating, there's no saving them. 

So long as they live, they will always plot revenge and destabilize things.

Not sure where you get that they "vanished from the public eye" from when that's not actually how most endings are framed at all. 

Keep in mind that the battle against the Agarthans is kept a secret from the public eye, as it's meant to be a silent and unseen struggle. So even the case of historic event, its not a case that history would even know of their existence. Hence why Ferdinand's Byleth ending has it written that his battle against the Agarthans is something that is left unwritten for his life.

Edelgard: As the new Adrestian emperor, Edelgard dedicated her life to reshaping the delicate political structure of Fódlan. With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all. In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye.

Jeritza: After the war for Fódlan, Jeritza threw himself fully into the struggle against those who slither in the dark. Visage masked by the likeness of death itself, he laid waste to his enemies with a scythe that terrified friend and foe alike. When it was all over, he stole away in secret and vanished without a trace. His whereabouts thereafter have been the subject of much conjecture.

Edelgard and Hubert: As the new Adrestian emperor, Edelgard gave all she had to breathe new life into the government of Fódlan. With tireless work, great sacrifice, and her devoted servant Hubert by her side, she instituted new class reforms and helped to ensure the people's independence. Hubert was always close at hand, ready to dispose of unsavory burdens by any means necessary. In their later years, they passed the fruits of her labor on to Edelgard's successor and vanished from the public eye. Though it is said they spent the rest of their lives together, it is unlikely they ever gave voice to the true depth of their affections.

I'm tinfoil hatting it up here as yeah, people just mysteriously vanishing it a rather common (and lazy) trend for Fire Emblem endings. But most other characters don't do it when fighting a shadowy war against people who can kill and replace you.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Jotari

[Jotari]

Sorry double post.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

Edelgard: As the new Adrestian emperor, Edelgard dedicated her life to reshaping the delicate political structure of Fódlan. With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all. In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye.

Jeritza: After the war for Fódlan, Jeritza threw himself fully into the struggle against those who slither in the dark. Visage masked by the likeness of death itself, he laid waste to his enemies with a scythe that terrified friend and foe alike. When it was all over, he stole away in secret and vanished without a trace. His whereabouts thereafter have been the subject of much conjecture.

Edelgard and Hubert: As the new Adrestian emperor, Edelgard gave all she had to breathe new life into the government of Fódlan. With tireless work, great sacrifice, and her devoted servant Hubert by her side, she instituted new class reforms and helped to ensure the people's independence. Hubert was always close at hand, ready to dispose of unsavory burdens by any means necessary. In their later years, they passed the fruits of her labor on to Edelgard's successor and vanished from the public eye. Though it is said they spent the rest of their lives together, it is unlikely they ever gave voice to the true depth of their affections.

I'm tinfoil hatting it up here as yeah, people just mysteriously vanishing it a rather common (and lazy) trend for Fire Emblem endings. But most other characters don't do it when fighting a shadowy war against people who can kill and replace you.

Keep in mind that Edelgard defeats the Agarthans first before the entire successor is chosen and she leaves to live out her life, or what remains of it. Jeritza having the Death Knight persona, and Hubert generally being a person that prefers to be in the shadows, it would make sense for those cases to have them leave the public eye. 

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Keep in mind that Edelgard defeats the Agarthans first before the entire successor is chosen and she leaves to live out her life, or what remains of it. Jeritza having the Death Knight persona, and Hubert generally being a person that prefers to be in the shadows, it would make sense for those cases to have them leave the public eye. 

Sure, that's a possibility. It's also a possibility that the Agarthans won the shadowy war, had a pro Agarthan successor appointed and quietly had Edelgard, Jeritza and Hubert disposed of. Not saying that's what did happen, just that it's a possibility (though I guess I am saying that leaving the ending on a note of "And then a tonne of other stuff happened that you'll never get the full details of" wasn't really the best decision, which is why we're talking about extending it to begin with).

Edited January 14, 2020 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Also seems to me it's likely that Edelgard herself is part Agarathan considering her uncle seems to be one and her mother turned to Cornelia for help to arrange the whole Duscur thing. Though it is possible Arundel was a kill and replace OP, though given how much they've manipulated basically every aspect of Edelgard's life, literally giving birth to her doesn't seem off the table either.

Not really. I mean, it's kind of clear that Arundel was killed and replaced during 1174, as that was the year Arundel not only stopped sending donations to the Church, but also suddenly taking Edelgard back to Adrestia, where Hubert mentions that Arundel teamed up with Aegir to overthrow Ionius. Which then led to Edelgard and her siblings being tortured in experiments.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Sure, that's a possibility. It's also a possibility that the Agarthans won the shadowy war, had a pro Agarthan successor appointed and quietly had Edelgard, Jeritza and Hubert disposed of. Not saying that's what did happen, just that it's a possibility (though I guess I am saying that leaving the ending on a note of "And then a tonne of other stuff happened that you'll never get the full details of" wasn't really the best decision).

That's just reaching to new levels, given how we literally see Jeritza's S support with Byleth that has them storm the Shambhala, and killing the Agarthans. With their ending even stating that the Agarthans are killed. That's the kind of headcanon that I generally hear from people that generally hate Edelgard and her route.

It's not even remotely a possibility. 

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not really. I mean, it's kind of clear that Arundel was killed and replaced during 1174, as that was the year Arundel not only stopped sending donations to the Church, but also suddenly taking Edelgard back to Adrestia, where Hubert mentions that Arundel teamed up with Aegir to overthrow Ionius. Which then led to Edelgard and her siblings being tortured in experiments.

That's just reaching to new levels, given how we literally see Jeritza's S support with Byleth that has them storm the Shambhala, and killing the Agarthans. With their ending even stating that the Agarthans are killed. That's the kind of headcanon that I generally hear from people that generally hate Edelgard and her route.

It's not even remotely a possibility. 

To be fair we do exactly that in Verdant Wind and they're still knocking around.

[Flere210]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wow, this is new. Defending the Agarthans. Honestly, it's pretty clear that they are a completely irredeemable bunch.

I am defending the agarthan CHILDREN that did nothing bad yet. I even mentioned the orc baby dilemma, and for D&D orcs not being chaotic evil is very difficult for a number of reasons. Should we kill children because we are sure they will do bad thing as adults? Most people would say not. I'd say that Edelgard, Dimitri and Rhea would kill the children, Claude and Byleth may not but i am not sure.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To be fair we do exactly that in Verdant Wind and they're still knocking around.

Only difference is that Claude stops thinking that he's beaten them enough and doesn't know anything more about that.

Edelgard isn't like that. She knows more about how dangerous they are and is the one that tries to learn everything she can about them so that she can completely destroy them. Hence why only she can truly destroy them completely. 

It's a way of showing how the form of "morality" the characters have depend on how much you truly can hurt the Agarthans. 

Dimitri tries to be this morally upstanding dude at the end, and never sees the Agarthans. Claude is more morally dubious, and is willing to do some dirty deeds, but still overall never would really go beyond that. Edelgard is someone that will do more morally dubious and wrong things, hence why she's willing to work with them so she can learn how to destroy them. 

Just now, Flere210 said:

I am defending the agarthan CHILDREN that did nothing bad yet. I even mentioned the orc baby dilemma, and for D&D orcs not being chaotic evil is very difficult for a number of reasons. Should we kill children because we are sure they will do bad thing as adults? Most people would say not. I'd say that Edelgard, Dimitri and Rhea would kill the children, Claude and Byleth may not but i am not sure.

That's if there are any children there. The most we got was Kronya, and she's about as sadistic as they come. For all we know, Agarthans aren't born, but created from pods. 

[Etrurian emperor]

8 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

I am defending the agarthan CHILDREN that did nothing bad yet. I even mentioned the orc baby dilemma, and for D&D orcs not being chaotic evil is very difficult for a number of reasons. Should we kill children because we are sure they will do bad thing as adults? Most people would say not. I'd say that Edelgard, Dimitri and Rhea would kill the children, Claude and Byleth may not but i am not sure.

For some reason I can't see little Agarthan children running around in Shambhala nor do I see Thales running a daycare center for kids. We know the Lopt have some kids in their base but I can't picture it with the Agarthans. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[Flere210]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That's if there are any children there. The most we got was Kronya, and she's about as sadistic as they come. For all we know, Agarthans aren't born, but created from pods. 

Fair point, it's possible.

[Geenoble]

2 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

For some reason I can't see little Agarthan children running around in Shambhala nor do I see Thales running a daycare center for kids. 

I mean it was obviously the Agarthan teenagers that came up with the dubstep. 

 

On the topic of Agarthans being alive after routes, the reason why they come back in VW is most likely due to Cornelia escaping, she comes back at the end and gets killed by Claude and the Almyran Army. Edelgard very clearly invades Shambala and kills the Agarthans then and there. Realistically considering Thales would have gathered relics like Freikugel it would have been a big struggle and not some steam roll (would have been cool to have 2 or more extra chapters fighting the Argarthans at their strongest.) but it’s likely that everyone in Shambala apart from the ancient heroes are killed.

both routes end with all of twsitd dying (apart from The VW final boss who probably never gets awakened in CF) just El kills them all at once while Claude leaves them an opportunity on accident but kills them later.

 

AM kills off their Key leaders, meaning it would take them another 500 or so years to regain their strength but they will fight back again, but Byleth, Seteth and potentially even Rhea will still be alive then. SS is like VW but claude and the almyrans can’t help out so rip.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Geenoble said:

I mean it was obviously the Agarthan teenagers that came up with the dubstep. 

 

On the topic of Agarthans being alive after routes, the reason why they come back in VW is most likely due to Cornelia escaping, she comes back at the end and gets killed by Claude and the Almyran Army. Edelgard very clearly invades Shambala and kills the Agarthans then and there. Realistically considering Thales would have gathered relics like Freikugel it would have been a big struggle and not some steam roll (would have been cool to have 2 or more extra chapters fighting the Argarthans at their strongest.) but it’s likely that everyone in Shambala apart from the ancient heroes are killed.

both routes end with all of twsitd dying (apart from The VW final boss who probably never gets awakened in CF) just El kills them all at once while Claude leaves them an opportunity on accident but kills them later.

 

AM kills off their Key leaders, meaning it would take them another 500 or so years to regain their strength but they will fight back again, but Byleth, Seteth and potentially even Rhea will still be alive then. SS is like VW but claude and the almyrans can’t help out so rip.

Actually, there's some thinking that Cornelia is actually Bias, the lady in Shambhala that controls the Titanus, like Cornelia does. Bias is perhaps Cornelia's "Agarthan" form. But the Shabhala is a numbered base, so it's likely that it's not even their actual main HQ.

Not to mention, when you dig into some things, including etymology, it's likely that Thales wasn't the true leader of the Agarthans.

Thales's class is Agastya, which is stated to be a "high-ranking guru" among the slithers. High ranking generally means that there's still a higher rank above that. 

AM only kills off Thales, Solon, Cornelia, and Myson, but there's still Odesse, Chilon, and Pittacus that were not killed (Cornelia might be Bias), the latter two playing a key role in the Shambhala battle, and Odesse leading the Agarthans in the Nemesis battle. If VW has the Agarthans recover and launch an attack in a few months, they are even stronger in AM. 

As for the etymology, the Agarthan "leaders" seem to be named after the Seven Sages of Greece.

So far, we only have 6 of the 7: Thales, Solon, Pittacus, Chilon, Bias, and Myson. 

The last is Cleobulus, who was Thales's father in law or grandfather. 

Also, VW doesn't have Claude kill the remaining ones. The remnants in the ending are that of the Imperial army, but the Agarthans are not the remnants, meaning that they are likely still around. 

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Geenoble said:

I mean it was obviously the Agarthan teenagers that came up with the dubstep. 

 

On the topic of Agarthans being alive after routes, the reason why they come back in VW is most likely due to Cornelia escaping, she comes back at the end and gets killed by Claude and the Almyran Army. Edelgard very clearly invades Shambala and kills the Agarthans then and there. Realistically considering Thales would have gathered relics like Freikugel it would have been a big struggle and not some steam roll (would have been cool to have 2 or more extra chapters fighting the Argarthans at their strongest.) but it’s likely that everyone in Shambala apart from the ancient heroes are killed.

both routes end with all of twsitd dying (apart from The VW final boss who probably never gets awakened in CF) just El kills them all at once while Claude leaves them an opportunity on accident but kills them later.

 

AM kills off their Key leaders, meaning it would take them another 500 or so years to regain their strength but they will fight back again, but Byleth, Seteth and potentially even Rhea will still be alive then. SS is like VW but claude and the almyrans can’t help out so rip.

The fact that they went and did that just makes me lose any respect for the game that would make me believe Edelgard or Claude's ending was a well thought out reasoned event...I still like that they did do that because I freaking love Nemesis's design and it's better than (randomly) fighting Rhea twice, but it does make me respect the narrative less.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

The fact that they went and did that just makes me lose any respect for the game that would make me believe Edelgard or Claude's ending was a well thought out reasoned event...I still like that they did do that because I freaking love Nemesis's design and it's better than (randomly) fighting Rhea twice, but it does make me respect the narrative less.

I get the feeling that collecting the Relics is for the revival of Nemesis and the Elites. 

Which actually makes me think that the CF extension would have had a Nemesis battle, and if you recruit the units and get their Relic, the Agarthans have a replacement, but otherwise, Failnaught, Freikugel, Areadbhar, Crusher, and Rafail Gem are always gonna be with the Elites. Which is interesting, cause if you recruit none of the others, that means that all the Relics would fall into Agarthan hands, apart from the Sword of the Creator, but Nemesis has the Dark Creator Sword instead. 

It's actually rather brilliant in regards to gameplay.

[Geenoble]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The fact that they went and did that just makes me lose any respect for the game that would make me believe Edelgard or Claude's ending was a well thought out reasoned event...I still like that they did do that because I freaking love Nemesis's design and it's better than (randomly) fighting Rhea twice, but it does make me respect the narrative less.

Nemesis has such a kickass design, probably my favourite FE design since Cainheghis, but him re appearing doesn’t make much sense but is cool nonetheless. It also makes for my favourite final map in the game.

 

there was a time that i belived that Solon getting Flayn’s blood was needed, and that her blood revived Nemesis, but there is no evidence stating it to be like that and was probably never intended, as far as we know he wakes up randomly in Vw and not other routes.

The only thing we know for sure is that he was never really dead due to his demi god powers and was probably healing from his injuries in some nabataen sleep similar to Byleth between the TS.

back on topic for SS Nemesis not appearing is the worst on that route, since everything that happens in Vw that could explain his reawakening (same amount of time passes, Flayn’s blood, Javelins of Light attacking Shambala.) happens in SS, whereas at least these don’t happen in other routes. There is no reason for Nemesis not to awaken in SS, and him still being alive makes more sense than Rhea suddenly going insane and all of those church cardinals turning in to beasts.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Geenoble
Spelling

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not just by killing Cornelia, but also by having Hubert investigate the Agarthans, and Jeritza covertly destroying Agarthan bases, as we get a covert mission to destroy an Agarthan base, which actually has the enemies be called "Agarthan". 

We only kill Cornelia because she's fighting for the Kingdom. It's not clear why she doesn't defect, nor try to sabotage the Kingdom; maybe she feared that doing so would cause Kingdom forces to turn on her, and arrest/kill her? If she did defect, I imagine Edelgard would (begrudgingly) let her live.

I haven't played CF since the Wave 3 update - when does Jeritza destroying Agarthan bases happen? And when on CF do we fight Agarthan enemies? Is this referring to his epilogue with Byleth? Because of course, that's not during the war.

11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Trying to say that it could easily backfire ignores that Edelgard's not an idiot and has been preparing herself the entire time.

Neither was Claude, and he loses just two chapters into this route. And neither is Thales. He's been planning his revenge for centuries, presumably, and he almost certainly has a plan to get rid of Edelgard once she wins the war. One will succeed, and it's no given that it will be Edelgard.

11 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Why would you think that? With the Agarthans, you have a chance of exploring their side of the story through a confrontation. If they got advanced science on them, they likely have actual video records about the truth of the past, and learning what the Agarthans are, whether they are actually humans or not, or about why they hate Rhea. We might even learn what happened to Patricia as well. 

What I'll concede is, as far as the Agarthans are concerned - there's potential. Thing is, we don't have enough to go on for me to be sufficiently intrigued. They're a mix of obnoxiously evil and stupid (see - Solon revealing himself as Tomas, and then monologuing his plan, so the players would get it), with no apparent motivation aside from "revenge". If the Agarthans continue to get characterized as they have been already, I don't see them becoming any more sympathetic or interesting. And 8-10 chapters, longer than we spent on the fight to defeat the Alliance, Kingdom, and Church combined, sounds excessive.

IDK, I could see an optional "mini-campaign" maybe working, if it gives lore and good characterization, but it should be no more than 4 chapters.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

We only kill Cornelia because she's fighting for the Kingdom. It's not clear why she doesn't defect, nor try to sabotage the Kingdom; maybe she feared that doing so would cause Kingdom forces to turn on her, and arrest/kill her? If she did defect, I imagine Edelgard would (begrudgingly) let her live.

I haven't played CF since the Wave 3 update - when does Jeritza destroying Agarthan bases happen? And when on CF do we fight Agarthan enemies? Is this referring to his epilogue with Byleth? Because of course, that's not during the war.

Cornelia already deduced that the Edelgard was coming to Arianrhod specifically to kill her, and Arundel also surmised the same thing. Edelgard even made it clear that weakening the Agarthans is beneficial for them as well, so it's clear that Cornelia was always intended to be the target. Also, her defecting wouldn't actually be beneficial to Edelgard, but to the Agarthans. Keep in mind that in the other routes, Cornelia might have allied with Edelgard with the Dukedom, but Cornelia is still the one that controls it, meaning that its actually more under Agarthan control. 

In CF, there's a special Jeritza auxiliary mission where only Byleth and Jeritza goes to fight a secret base in Alliance territory, where the enemies are Agarthans. 

Here's a vid of it.

Spoiler

 

 

5 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Neither was Claude, and he loses just two chapters into this route. And neither is Thales. He's been planning his revenge for centuries, presumably, and he almost certainly has a plan to get rid of Edelgard once she wins the war. One will succeed, and it's no given that it will be Edelgard.

Claude isn't an idiot, but he's not someone that actually delved any deeper to the Agarthans beyond Shambhala, nor was he someone that could have realized the Agarthans' role without Edelgard or Hubert's investigation. 

Also, Arundel and the Agarthans are overall arrogant. Like, nearly to a Gilgamesh level of arrogance. They are cautious enough to hide in the shadows and plot their revenge, but their arrogance and belief they are superior to other people overall is why they ultimately let their guard down to Edelgard and Hubert. Hubert even remarks it himself in his paralogue, where their own arrogance and looking down on them will lead to their own downfall. 

Hence why in the end, Edelgard IS the one that actually succeeds and wipes them all out.

8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

What I'll concede is, as far as the Agarthans are concerned - there's potential. Thing is, we don't have enough to go on for me to be sufficiently intrigued. They're a mix of obnoxiously evil and stupid (see - Solon revealing himself as Tomas, and then monologuing his plan, so the players would get it), with no apparent motivation aside from "revenge". If the Agarthans continue to get characterized as they have been already, I don't see them becoming any more sympathetic or interesting. And 8-10 chapters, longer than we spent on the fight to defeat the Alliance, Kingdom, and Church combined, sounds excessive.

IDK, I could see an optional "mini-campaign" maybe working, if it gives lore and good characterization, but it should be no more than 4 chapters.

Who knows. I'm only giving an estimation, but given that they are the ONLY ones that have ever achieved actual modern forms of tech, I wanna see more of them, and whether they really DID turn against the goddess, or if Rhea pulled a Duma on them. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

44 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Cornelia already deduced that the Edelgard was coming to Arianrhod specifically to kill her, and Arundel also surmised the same thing. Edelgard even made it clear that weakening the Agarthans is beneficial for them as well, so it's clear that Cornelia was always intended to be the target. Also, her defecting wouldn't actually be beneficial to Edelgard, but to the Agarthans. Keep in mind that in the other routes, Cornelia might have allied with Edelgard with the Dukedom, but Cornelia is still the one that controls it, meaning that its actually more under Agarthan control. 

At most, it's a "two birds with one stone" scenario. Edelgard needs to take Arianrhod to defeat the Kingdom/Church alliance, her principal enemy in the war. A defecting Cornelia could actually help Edelgard - say, by giving her the schematics of Arianrhod, letting her control the Titanus guarding it, etc. Thereby minimizing casualties among the Imperial forces, and potentiallyfurther demoralizing the Kingdom. It's unclear what threat a defecting Cornelia presents to Edelgard (aside from belonging to Twistid), and you said yourself that Edelgard won't kill recklessly, even being willing to spare Rhea, her sworn enemy. She wants Cornelia dead, but if she's willing to suffer Arundel live, I don't see why she wouldn't do the same for a defecting Cornelia.

44 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Hence why in the end, Edelgard IS the one that actually succeeds and wipes them all out.

I understand that's how it pans out, my point was that Edelgard had no way of knowing that she would be successful. She took a risk that paid off, but it could have backfired spectacularly. If she assumed she'd beat them, then that's arrogance on her own part (and I would say Edelgard is arrogant, albeit not to the same degree as Twistid).

Spoiler

In CF, there's a special Jeritza auxiliary mission where only Byleth and Jeritza goes to fight a secret base in Alliance territory, where the enemies are Agarthans. 

Interesting, thanks for pointing that out. I will concede, Edelgard took some steps against Those Who Slither during the war. Of course, it's a tightrope act - she needs their support during the war, but wants to keep them weak enough that she can beat them afterwards. As intelligent and determined as Edelgard is, it seems like a minor miracle that she manages to take down all her foes, while preserving her own rule. Not that "beating the odds" is anything new for the series.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Added last paragraph.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

At most, it's a "two birds with one stone" scenario. Edelgard needs to take Arianrhod to defeat the Kingdom/Church alliance, her principal enemy in the war. A defecting Cornelia could actually help Edelgard - say, by giving her the schematics of Arianrhod, letting her control the Titanus guarding it, etc. Thereby minimizing casualties among the Imperial forces, and potentiallyfurther demoralizing the Kingdom. It's unclear what threat a defecting Cornelia presents to Edelgard (aside from belonging to Twistid), and you said yourself that Edelgard won't kill recklessly, even being willing to spare Rhea, her sworn enemy. She wants Cornelia dead, but if she's willing to suffer Arundel live, I don't see why she wouldn't do the same for a defecting Cornelia.

Because unlike Rhea, who sometimes is able to show shreds of some humanity and acts of kindness, the Agarthans lack even that. Cornelia has no acts of kindness. Killing Cornelia means that Cornelia can't know about anything. No info could lead to her, hence why Edelgard even spread false info that they would be heading toward Fhirdiad, when it was actually Arianrhod.

Cornelia defecting would make her try and gain political control over Faerghus, very much as she did in the other routes. Edelgard isn't going to give the Agarthans any sway over the nations so that they become a major threat later on. 

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I understand that's how it pans out, my point was that Edelgard had no way of knowing that she would be successful. She took a risk that paid off, but it could have backfired spectacularly. If she assumed she'd beat them, then that's arrogance on her own part (and I would say Edelgard is arrogant, albeit not to the same degree as Twistid).

Edelgard is not omniscient, nor is she a god. But she understands well enough that with how they work, fighting them from the outside would already fail. But working with them and learning as much information about them is absolutely necessary. Ever hear the phrase, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"? That's basically it. Edelgard needed their power, but she also was well aware that learning about them was the best way to destroy them.

Keep in mind that the only reason that even Dimtiri or Claude could even hurt the Agarthans in the other routes is strictly because of Edelgard and her war. Either the war made the Agarthans fight in the war, allowing them to be damaged, or the Shambhala to be traced, thus allowing it to be stormed. Otherwise, they would be out of sight, out of mind, and constantly a threat. Their greatest weapon is the darkness. 

As Michael Weston said in Burn Notice, it's not the enemies that you see that are scary. It's the ones you don't.

[vanguard333]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm tinfoil hatting it up here as yeah, people just mysteriously vanishing it a rather common (and lazy) trend for Fire Emblem endings. But most other characters don't do it when fighting a shadowy war against people who can kill and replace you.

Exactly. Radiant Dawn wrote that Ike just up and vanished arbitrarily. I wouldn't read too much into it. 

 

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

The fact that they went and did that just makes me lose any respect for the game that would make me believe Edelgard or Claude's ending was a well thought out reasoned event...I still like that they did do that because I freaking love Nemesis's design and it's better than (randomly) fighting Rhea twice, but it does make me respect the narrative less.

10 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Nemesis has such a kickass design, probably my favourite FE design since Cainheghis

Really? I'm just surprised. I'm really not a fan; it's basically Demise from Skyward Sword with a cape and a lot of spikes. And why is he bare-chested? I guess his design would look good if he just had something on his chest and no spikes. 

[Flere210]

To me Nemesis looks only slightly more manacing than a generic bandit boss. Having him job on his very first scene does not help.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I don't really have a strong opinion on Nemesis's design, but I am rather confused that someone would call it their favourite of the final maps. It's a fight against someone you just learned existed barely a chapter ago, in a location which looks like it was designed for a random filler map. I vividly remember getting to the battle for the first time. It was just before dinner time and my wife and I were going to go on a date. I asked her if we could wait until I'd watched the pre-battle cutscene, only to discover that it's... some generic line about "watch out, the swamp is poisonous!" like some earlygame tutorial. We laughed.

Gameplaywise it's okay (Nemesis himself is a decent enough final opponent; I like how different all three final bosses feel) though as far as the rest of the fight is concerned, if you use lots of fliers the terrain works ridiculously in your favour (to a significantly greater degree than even CF's final map, which at least has all those pegasus knights). The Elites are pretty unmemorable opponents (Fire Emblem has done this idea better before, with the Morphs in FE7's final chapter).

On the other hand I really love the final maps of CF and AM. CF has a stunning location, AM's is more standard but makes excellent narrative sense as a choice. And both opponents are built up for the entire story, being two of the most developed and discussion-provoking characters in the game (and series for that matter), and a good antagonist for the views the lords of their respective routes espouse. You know the stakes and understand what both sides are fighting for, it's great.