Jump to content
Sid Starkiller

So I FINALLY did Silver Snow...Wow...

Recommended Posts

Just now, Lunarly said:

Rhea did lie about Nemesis and crests but, the game never specifies when she told the lie. The library collections mentions Nemesis and how he was supposedly blessed by the goddess but, we don't know when or who wrote the text (even then it isn't reliable since we know the history of crests and Nemesis was made up). Outside of that, the game never mentions that Rhea/Saints made up the lie back in the day to justify the use of crests for the fight against Nemesis. 

Again, from what we know, Rhea did not create the Seiros religion. The religion was created by the public, and considering that Seiros has a large following and that the reason why Enbarr became the capital was because it was the first city that Seiros graced, it isn't too far off to believe it was created by the public. There's no reason for Rhea to fabricate pretend miracles because we know she has power, considering she was able to save Catherine and Jeralt during their near-death experiences. 

Read the library books.

Quote

- 41 Years Before the Founding of the Adrestian Empire -
Saint Seiros appeared in the land of Enbarr, through the many unfathomable miracles she performed, spread light across the land. In doing so, she joined the shattered hearts of the purest people of Fódlan, who went on to form the Holy Church of Seiros. 

She created the entire Church and religion, gathering followers, all to get them to help her get revenge on Nemesis.So yes, there is  when. The when is decades before the war even before, and decades before the Empire was even founded.

Rhea founded the Church and the religion, literally making people believe what she told them to believe. Because she used her powers to fabricate miracles. And Rhea even said that she manipulated history as well. She;s the one that lived through the ages and is the one that is able to control information more than many other people.

Hence why Edelgard's story, which goes over the relative truth of the conflict behind the War of Heroes, is something that only she knows because it was passed down from emperor to emperor. Because the truth is something that cannot otherwise be recorded. We know for a fact that Seteth destroys any books deemed "inappropriate" to the Church. 

4 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

Seiros religion isn't really fake considering it was created by the public and that Seiros and Sothis are real and did perform the miracles that they did. Seiros Religion is more of a shady religion considering the rewriting of what a crest is and that the people are unaware the goddess they worship is actually right there (though it's clear when Rhea says goddess she meant Sothis, and when the followers say goddess they believe it's Seiros).

Also you said Wilhelm made the first move, and then went on to say Rhea started the war. 

Sothis being real does not make the religion true. The progenitor god Sothis that we know is not the Goddess Sothis that people hold faith over. Given that Sothis is preached to exist and protects the people of Fodlan and is the one taht blesses everything, even crops and such. But all of that is a load of BS, because Sothis is dead and has been dead for ages, and only came back after Rhea experimented behind the scenes to try and restore her.

And Wilhelm was a follower of Rhea. He made the move that started the war, but under Rhea's influence. Because once again, by Rhea's own admission, she was driven by revenge and helped create the Empire, all to help oppose Nemesis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Read the library books.

She created the entire Church and religion, gathering followers, all to get them to help her get revenge on Nemesis.So yes, there is  when. The when is decades before the war even before, and decades before the Empire was even founded.

Rhea founded the Church and the religion, literally making people believe what she told them to believe. Because she used her powers to fabricate miracles. And Rhea even said that she manipulated history as well. She;s the one that lived through the ages and is the one that is able to control information more than many other people.

Hence why Edelgard's story, which goes over the relative truth of the conflict behind the War of Heroes, is something that only she knows because it was passed down from emperor to emperor. Because the truth is something that cannot otherwise be recorded. We know for a fact that Seteth destroys any books deemed "inappropriate" to the Church. 

Sothis being real does not make the religion true. The progenitor god Sothis that we know is not the Goddess Sothis that people hold faith over. Given that Sothis is preached to exist and protects the people of Fodlan and is the one taht blesses everything, even crops and such. But all of that is a load of BS, because Sothis is dead and has been dead for ages, and only came back after Rhea experimented behind the scenes to try and restore her.

And Wilhelm was a follower of Rhea. He made the move that started the war, but under Rhea's influence. Because once again, by Rhea's own admission, she was driven by revenge and helped create the Empire, all to help oppose Nemesis. 

  • Library books don't mention anything about the Saints giving their crests to Wilhelm's army to manipulate them to fighting for Rhea. It only mentions how crests were bestowed to the 10 elites/heroes and that their descendants seeked that power. So the part "She made up the lie that Nemesis and his followers were blessed by the goddess, just so that when Rhea and the other Saints bestowed Crests onto people, they can justify why other people have Crests that they would inevitably face. She would manipulate the people into believing that they were facing a righteous war." doesn't hold true
Spoiler
  1. The Book of Seiros, Part II
  2.  
  3. The Creation
  4. In the beginning, amid the great cloudless ocean, Fódlan came to be.
  5. At the end of a long journey, the goddess glimpsed that land and there
  6. alighted. Upon that sacred ground, she breathed life into the world and
  7. created all of the creatures upon it.
  8.  
  9. By the goddess’s hand, plants took root, birds took to the sky,
  10. and animals roamed the land. Last of all, she created humanity.
  11. When the humans wished for power, she granted it. She gifted them
  12. the blessings of the heavens and of the earth. By way of the magical arts,
  13. humanity attained great power, yet unaware that great power portends
  14. great evil.
  15.  
  16. By the grace of the goddess’s divine protection, humanity thrived.
  17. Through her blessings, they grew prosperous and their numbers rose.
  18. Before long they became the most powerful creatures in all of Fódlan.
  19. All was well until darkness descended from the north...a darkness that
  20. devoured the earth, desecrated the heavens, and they threw the world and
  21. its inhabitants into a state of chaos.
  22.  
  23. To face this evil force, the goddess created a new well of power.
  24. She gifted certain chosen individuals with sacred blood, allowing them
  25. to wield mystical weapons, that they may prevail against the darkness.
  26. These souls, buoyed by their divine gifts, conquered the evil ones and
  27. drove them back to the north. They came to be known as Heroes.
  28.  
  29. The Heroes experienced unnaturally long lives, persisting for hundreds
  30. of years. Even after they breathed their last, the power coursing through
  31. their blood remained, leaving an indelible mark upon this world.
  32. This power, passed through bloodlines, came to be known as the Crests.
  33. The mystical weapons they one wielded are now called the Heroes’ Relics.
  34. And so the legend of a new age was born.
  35.  
  36. The descendants of the Heroes sought their ancestor’s power, and thusly
  37. their blood. In time, they amassed Crests, Relics, land, and wealth,
  38. using all to set the land aflame with war. The goddess’s power, intended
  39. to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, all because of the
  40. greed of humanity. The goddess grieved and, heartbroken, hid herself
  41. in the heavens from whence she came…
  • Joining =/= fingding, they are 2 different things. Rhea fostered the religion but never actually started it
  • We don't know the reason behind why Rhea performed the miracles she did, as we only know that she did perform some sort of miracle that had an impact on the people of Enbarr at the time. To say that the only reason Rhea performed her miracles was to manipulate the people is something we don't know to be true. Rhea can be crazy and manipulative but, we know there are times when she actually shows compassion.
  • Rhea mentions she manipulated the history of crests and Nemesis but that's all we really know on the chunks of history she manipulated.
  • Seteth destroys books that depict anything about the Saints, probably to protect the true identities of Flayn and Rhea as seen with the interaction with Claude finding a book that had a picture of the Immaculate One. 
  • Part about Sothis makes sense, forgot about that connection
  • We don't know whether or not Wilhelm was a follower of Rhea because the game never specified this to be the case, and it never mentions that Rhea was the one that influenced Wilhelm into fighting the war for her. For all we know, he could've made certain decisions himself or maybe he had something against Nemesis.
Edited by Lunarly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lunarly said:
  • Library books don't mention anything about the Saints giving their crests to Wilhelm's army to manipulate them to fighting for Rhea. It only mentions how crests were bestowed to the 10 elites/heroes and that their descendants seeked that power. So the part "She made up the lie that Nemesis and his followers were blessed by the goddess, just so that when Rhea and the other Saints bestowed Crests onto people, they can justify why other people have Crests that they would inevitably face. She would manipulate the people into believing that they were facing a righteous war." doesn't hold true

The other Saints were literally confirmed to have worked with Rhea. Rhea literally said that she had gathered any other Nabateans to help her. And we know for a fact that the ancestors of Hresvelg, Aegir, Varley, and Hevring all attained Crests from their Saints, resulting in them having a Crest.

But the fact that she had to bestow Crests, she had to make an excuse to why they would be opposing Nemesis, who also bears a Crest, along with the Relics as well. So she simply says that they were once champions of the Goddess, but were corrupted by the Relics.

It's a great way of turning a fight of personal vendetta into some righteous war.

3 minutes ago, Lunarly said:
  • Joining =/= fingding, they are 2 different things. Rhea fostered and joined in to foster religion but never actually started it

Dude, Saint Seiros. Church of Seiros. You legit think that it's so much of a stretch to go about how she invented the religion? You're trying too hard to defend Rhea here. 

4 minutes ago, Lunarly said:
  • We don't know the reason behind why Rhea performed the miracles she did, as we only know that she did perform some sort of miracle that had an impact on the people of Enbarr at the time. To say that the only reason Rhea performed her miracles was to manipulate the people is something we don't know to be true. Rhea can be crazy and manipulative but, we know there are times when she actually shows compassion.

She literally admits that she clung to her desire for revenge against Nemesis. She was a patient one, at that. She fabricated miracles and be hailed as a saint, all so that she can gather followers and raise and army. Rhea's smart enough to understand that she lacks power by herself to stop Nemesis. So she raises an army.

I don't know why you find it hard to believe that she created a religion and manipulated followers through her deception for the goal of revenge. We literally see in the first scene how she brutally stabs Nemesis to death while talking about the Red Canyon. She was not in this for some righteous goal. 

It wasn't. It was revenge. Pure and simple.

6 minutes ago, Lunarly said:
  • Rhea mentions she manipulated the history of crests and Nemesis but that's all we really know on the chunks of history she manipulated.

And somehow you think that's not enough to put into question how much she has manipulated? Really? She literally created the Church of Seiros, named after herself for crying out loud.

7 minutes ago, Lunarly said:
  • Seteth destroys books that depict anything about the Saints, probably to protect the true identities of Flayn and Rhea as seen with the interaction with Claude finding a book that had a picture of the Immaculate One. 

That's already censorship on itself. For the fact of the matter it, the belief that Rhea made the lie to protect the remaining Nabateans is in itself a lie that fans made up. Because the truth is simpler. She lied to get revenge on Nemesis.This is supported by the game itself where she ADMITS it.

8 minutes ago, Lunarly said:
  • We don't know whether or not Wilhelm was a follower of Rhea because the game never specified this to be the case, and it never mentions that Rhea was the one that influenced Wilhelm into fighting the war for her. For all we know, he could've made certain decisions himself or maybe he had something against Nemesis.

Dude, the game does.

Rhea literally says to Edelgard in Chapter 17 of CF that that Wilhelm saved her and supported her, giving his all to the cause of defeating Nemesis. She's the one that bestowed the Crest of Seiros too. 

You're trying hard to defend Rhea, but the fact is, both religion and war was started only for revenge. Nothing righteous. Nothing noble. It was pure vengeance. 

Rhea ADMITS this. I don't know why you are trying so hard to defend her, when I literally quoted the games itself.

If you want to argue against this, you need to provide actually evidence from the game itself. All you are doing is claiming that there's no proof, despite how I did prove it through quotes, and making what amounts to headcanons of what might be the case. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No reason to get so upset, we're just talking lol.

Anyways

Quote

But the fact that she had to bestow Crests, she had to make an excuse to why they would be opposing Nemesis, who also bears a Crest, along with the Relics as well. So she simply says that they were once champions of the Goddess, but were corrupted by the Relics.

It's a great way of turning a fight of personal vendetta into some righteous war.

Game never even mentions this lol, it is a possible outcome but the game never brings up anything about Rhea manipulating what crests are as an excuse to brainwash Wilhelm's army.

Quote

Dude, Saint Seiros. Church of Seiros. You legit think that it's so much of a stretch to go about how she invented the religion? You're trying too hard to defend Rhea here. 

And somehow you think that's not enough to put into question how much she has manipulated? Really? She literally created the Church of Seiros, named after herself for crying out loud.

Or you know, it was the public that was the one to name to religion itself since they were the true founders.

Quote

 

I don't know why you find it hard to believe that she created a religion and manipulated followers through her deception for the goal of revenge. We literally see in the first scene how she brutally stabs Nemesis to death while talking about the Red Canyon. She was not in this for some righteous goal. 

Never said that Rhea didn't have a personal vendetta and wanted revenge against Nemesis, that was something I never brought up in any of my posts. The game literally tells you 0 on Rhea using miracles as a way to coerce people into creating the Seiros religion and to fight for her, that's entirely headcanon. Besides you make it seem like Nemesis was just some random dude minding his own business and Rhea wanted to kill him for no reason. We don't know much about what happened back then other than the library book that says

"Under the tyranny of ruthless disorder, the people endured a long period of suffering. The vile Nemesis, who proclaimed himself the King of Liberation, delighted in war and bloodshed. Rather than rebelling against his persecution, the people of Fódlan fell to his depths in a mad scramble to attain power through murder and theft."

So it is possible that the public were unhappy with Nemesis being a pseudo ruler at the time

Even then, all we know about what went down is...

"Saint Seiros appeared in the land of Enbarr and, through the many unfathomable miracles she performed, spread light across the land. In doing so, she joined the shattered hearts of the purest people of Fódlan, who went on to form the Holy Church of Seiros."

She performed miracles, people liked it and started a religion for her. That's it.

Quote

Rhea literally says to Edelgard in Chapter 17 of CF that that Wilhelm saved her and supported her, giving his all to the cause of defeating Nemesis. She's the one that bestowed the Crest of Seiros too. 

Didn't catch that in the quote vs. Edelgard, but I mean it could've been a 2 way support system between the 2 which isn't too out of the ordinary. We don't know much about Wilhelm since he could've had his own reasons to take down Nemesis since the library collection explain why Wilhelm wanted to reunify Fodlan.

 

Quote

If you want to argue against this, you need to provide actually evidence from the game itself. All you are doing is claiming that there's no proof, despite how I did prove it through quotes, and making what amounts to headcanons of what might be the case. 

Ok you're using evidence to support your headcanons. Just because it's a possibility doesn't mean it was what actually went down because the game never mentions any of that.

I'm more or less discouraging the use of headcannons as part of an argument, since to me it looks like you're trying to make your headcanons fact because there's supporting evidence. I mean going back to the Seteth and censorship, he burns books to protect Flayn and Rhea is supported by the game with how he interacts with Flayn and Rhea but, we don't know it's true because it doesn't explicitly say so.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lunarly said:

Game never even mentions this lol, it is a possible outcome but the game never brings up anything about Rhea manipulating what crests are as an excuse to brainwash Wilhelm's army.

I dunno who you think you're fooling. Me or yourself.

I remind you once again, Rhea's admission.

Quote

Rhea: I was the only survivor of Zanado, and all I could do was wander across Fodlan clinging to my desperate desire for revenge. I called myself Seiros, fostered the founding of the Empire, and prepared to oppose Nemesis and his followers.

Like, not sure how much you wanna deny Rhea's admission when she admits that she did everything for the sole purpose of revenge.

3 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

Never said that Rhea didn't have a personal vendetta and wanted revenge against Nemesis, that was something I never brought up in any of my posts. The game literally tells you 0 on Rhea using miracles as a way to coerce people into creating the Seiros religion and to fight for her, that's entirely headcanon. Besides you make it seem like Nemesis was just some random dude minding his own business and Rhea wanted to kill him for no reason. We don't know much about what happened back then other than the library book that says

"Under the tyranny of ruthless disorder, the people endured a long period of suffering. The vile Nemesis, who proclaimed himself the King of Liberation, delighted in war and bloodshed. Rather than rebelling against his persecution, the people of Fódlan fell to his depths in a mad scramble to attain power through murder and theft."

So it is possible that the public were unhappy with Nemesis being a pseudo ruler at the time

Even then, all we know about what went down is...

"Saint Seiros appeared in the land of Enbarr and, through the many unfathomable miracles she performed, spread light across the land. In doing so, she joined the shattered hearts of the purest people of Fódlan, who went on to form the Holy Church of Seiros."

She performed miracles, people liked it and started a religion for her. That's it.

Yeah, see, though I'm certainly not gonna say that Nemesis was a good dude, and I do believe that the continent was not a happy place, I certainly won't be saying that Nemesis is the cause of the problems. The guy had an indefinite period of time before Seiros appeared and created the Empire to have conquered Fodlan himself. Yet he didn't. He already had longevity and power. If he was able to rally an entire army to meet Wilhelm's army and keep the fighting going on for 66 long years,, even go on for 7 of those years past his own death, then he could have conquered Fodlan long before that. But he didn't. 

That's the literal fact of the matter. 

Also, really? Rhea appears as Seiros, and uses her powers to fabricate miracles, and is called a "Saint". How exactly is that NOT coercing people and manipulating them to become her followers?

And who is the one that told them of what the goddess was, what the Crest was, and who is the one that is the "Sword of the goddess"? Like, trying to insist that the people made it up and not Rhea is the silliest thing, given that she's the one that acted like some prophet the entire time. 

Prophets being the word of the god, anything Seiros says and claims would be hailed and worshipped by the people as fact. Anything she says, like where Crests came from, what Nemesis was, what Relics are, etc. they would all be things that people would believe because Saint Seiros said it.

Or are you going to claim that the people made up where the Crests came from themselves now?

8 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

Didn't catch that in the quote vs. Edelgard, but I mean it could've been a 2 way support system between the 2 which isn't too out of the ordinary. We don't know much about Wilhelm since he could've had his own reasons to take down Nemesis since the library collection explain why Wilhelm wanted to reunify Fodlan.

Maybe, maybe not. I mean, someone passed down the story about the Relics and the purpose of the war from emperor to emperor somehow. Whether it was Wilhelm or Lycaon, we don't know. But it does not change that Wilhelm acted in what Rhea wanted in the end. She did everything just to start the war against Nemesis. So even if Wilhelm made the attack, it was still something that Rhea's been preparing the people for. 

10 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

Ok you're using evidence to support your headcanons. Just because it's a possibility doesn't mean it was what actually went down because the game never mentions any of that.

I'm more or less discouraging the use of headcannons as part of an argument, since to me it looks like you're trying to make your headcanons fact because there's supporting evidence. I mean going back to the Seteth and censorship, he burns books to protect Flayn and Rhea is supported by the game with how he interacts with Flayn and Rhea but, we don't know it's true because it doesn't explicitly say so.

Unless you can actually prove anything against what I'm saying, you have no ground to stand on. I use actual facts and logic, based on what the game itself presents. Also, Seteth trying to protect Flayn and Rhea ignores how Seteth only started being there around 16 years before the start of the game. So before that, Rhea's been the one destroying things and manipulating things for the past thousand years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Unless you can actually prove anything against what I'm saying, you have no ground to stand on. I use actual facts and logic, based on what the game itself presents.

This is a bit childish. You don't have to agree with the people you're talking to but just dismissing their arguments when they also use "Actual facts and logic" from the game, and look at the quotes in an equally correct way to yours is not okay.

21 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, really? Rhea appears as Seiros, and uses her powers to fabricate miracles, and is called a "Saint". How exactly is that NOT coercing people and manipulating them to become her followers?

She equally could have just started helping people in need because she is actually a good person which is shown many times throughout the game in how she fosters the Almyran and Remire village orphans and in her S support she feels terrible for inadvertently causing the war through the crest system she made, even though she meant to protect and bring order to Fodlan through it but she didn't realize the consequences of her actions at the time. She even questions if she deserves to live after all that has happened to the people, showing she is not a monster. She can't just call herself a saint, people started calling her a Saint after witnessing her miracles. How is that coercing people and manipulating them to become her followers? In the end they chose to worship her and there is no actual proof that Rhea intended to mislead them, rather there is much more to suggest she was just helping people. Yes Rhea hoped that people would rally to her side to help defeat Nemesis and so that also may play a part into her demonstrations of miracles but that doesn't have to be framed in a negative light. From the people's view she came and inspired them, gave them to courage to stand up and fight against Nemesis and brought peace to a time of pain.

After the People started worshiping her Rhea took the opportunity to bring order to Fodlan and established the Church of Serios. You might think that Rhea starts teaching all of the churches beliefs now but remember that the Elites are told to be warriors on Rhea's side in the Church lore, who later fought amongst themselves after their victory. If she started the whole Nemesis and Elites lore in that time, then how would she explain the Elites not actually being on her side. It's much more likely that Rhea brought in the cover up story of Nemesis and the Elites after the war ended, so as to not cause further conflict with the Elites's kin and the followers of the church. She didn't need to make a reason for the people to go against Nemesis because he was a Bandit King who had slaughtered innocents and the people probably lived in fear of him. That is reason enough.

In the end I agree with what you say about Rhea's main motivation just being to strike down Nemesis, it's one of her biggest flaws as a character - she can get too caught up in revenge against Nemesis or sometimes Byleth to think straight about what she is doing. But I don't agree that she was purely manipulating people, she does care about others a great deal and so thought the war was in the people's best interests as well (Which it may or may not have been. We don't know enough about that era to have massive debates about justification when we have barely any details), and her implementing the crest system and the church was not done to spite or enslave humanity but to help and bring peace to the war ravaged world. I would say the Church was mostly successful although of course with the exception of hiding the truth of crests and idolizing them which she comes to realize at the end. But honestly who would have the incredible foresight to know that later down the line their actions would cause all those problems. I don't think any character can realistically be expected to know that and it's another flaw of Rhea's. Ultimately although her actions causes some undesired consequences, Rhea still did what was best for the people and didn't try to manipulate them. She is not a monster.

Edited by SpiceMan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

This is a bit childish. You don't have to agree with the people you're talking to but just dismissing their arguments when they also use "Actual facts and logic" from the game, and look at the quotes in an equally correct way to yours is not okay.

She equally could have just started helping people in need because she is actually a good person which is shown many times throughout the game in how she fosters the Almyran and Remire village orphans and in her S support she feels terrible for inadvertently causing the war through the crest system she made, even though she meant to protect and bring order to Fodlan through it but she didn't realize the consequences of her actions at the time. She even questions if she deserves to live after all that has happened to the people, showing she is not a monster. She can't just call herself a saint, people started calling her a Saint after witnessing her miracles. How is that coercing people and manipulating them to become her followers? In the end they chose to worship her and there is no actual proof that Rhea intended to mislead them, rather there is much more to suggest she was just helping people. Yes Rhea hoped that people would rally to her side to help defeat Nemesis and so that also may play a part into her demonstrations of miracles but that doesn't have to be framed in a negative light. From the people's view she came and inspired them, gave them to courage to stand up and fight against Nemesis and brought peace to a time of pain.

After being the People started worshiping her Rhea took the opportunity to bring order to Fodlan and established the Church of Serios. You might think that Rhea starts teaching all of the churches beliefs now but remember that the Elites are told to be warriors on Rhea's side in the Church lore, who later fought amongst themselves after their victory. If she started the whole Nemesis and Elites lore in that time, then how would she explain the Elites not actually being on her side. It's much more likely that Rhea brought in the cover up story of Nemesis and the Elites after the war ended, so as to not cause further conflict with the Elites's kin and the followers of thew church. She didn't need to make a reason for the people to go against Nemesis because he was a Bandit King who had slaughtered innocents and the people probably lived in fear of him. That is reason enough.

In the end I agree with what you say about Rhea's main motivation just being to strike down Nemesis, it's one of her biggest flaws as a character - she can get too caught up in revenge against Nemesis or sometimes Byleth to think straight about what she is doing. But I don't agree that she was purely manipulating people, she does care about others a great deal and so thought the war was in the people's best interests as well (Which it may or may not have been. We don't know enough about that era to have massive debates about justification when we have barely any details), and her implementing the crest system and the church was not done to spite or enslave humanity but to help and bring peace to the war ravaged world. I would say the Church was mostly successful although of course with the exception of hiding the truth of crests and idolizing them which she comes to realize at the end. But honestly who would have the incredible foresight to know that later down the line their actions would cause all those problems. I don't think any character can realistically be expected to know that and it's another flaw of Rhea's. Ultimately although her actions causes some undesired consequences, Rhea still did what was best for the people and didn't try to manipulate them. She is not a monster.

I question whether we can even blame her for the implementing of the crest system when she was in no way responsible for Nemesis or the Elites. They were the ones that created the crests and relics and put into place a system where by which they were the rulers. Rhea just continued the system, initially to fight against the elites. Why she perpetuated it after the war we can only speculate, the main possibilities being either A) She saw it as a useful way to have powerful pawns B) Murdering or exiling their decedents would lead to further war. Or possibly even C) People with crests are in some way still her people and she felt something for those that continued the lineage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I question whether we can even blame her for the implementing of the crest system when she was in no way responsible for Nemesis or the Elites. They were the ones that created the crests and relics and put into place a system where by which they were the rulers. Rhea just continued the system, initially to fight against the elites. Why she perpetuated it after the war we can only speculate, the main possibilities being either A) She saw it as a useful way to have powerful pawns B) Murdering or exiling their decedents would lead to further war. Or possibly even C) People with crests are in some way still her people and she felt something for those that continued the lineage.

That's true. I never really thought about it that way, that the elites were already in charge and Rhea just continued with it. This why the new dlc should have been set in the past so we can finally have concrete proof of what the hell happened. But there is still the chance we will learn more about it anyway so I'm hopeful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, SpiceMan said:

This is a bit childish. You don't have to agree with the people you're talking to but just dismissing their arguments when they also use "Actual facts and logic" from the game, and look at the quotes in an equally correct way to yours is not okay.

She equally could have just started helping people in need because she is actually a good person which is shown many times throughout the game in how she fosters the Almyran and Remire village orphans and in her S support she feels terrible for inadvertently causing the war through the crest system she made, even though she meant to protect and bring order to Fodlan through it but she didn't realize the consequences of her actions at the time. She even questions if she deserves to live after all that has happened to the people, showing she is not a monster. She can't just call herself a saint, people started calling her a Saint after witnessing her miracles. How is that coercing people and manipulating them to become her followers? In the end they chose to worship her and there is no actual proof that Rhea intended to mislead them, rather there is much more to suggest she was just helping people. Yes Rhea hoped that people would rally to her side to help defeat Nemesis and so that also may play a part into her demonstrations of miracles but that doesn't have to be framed in a negative light. From the people's view she came and inspired them, gave them to courage to stand up and fight against Nemesis and brought peace to a time of pain.

After being the People started worshiping her Rhea took the opportunity to bring order to Fodlan and established the Church of Serios. You might think that Rhea starts teaching all of the churches beliefs now but remember that the Elites are told to be warriors on Rhea's side in the Church lore, who later fought amongst themselves after their victory. If she started the whole Nemesis and Elites lore in that time, then how would she explain the Elites not actually being on her side. It's much more likely that Rhea brought in the cover up story of Nemesis and the Elites after the war ended, so as to not cause further conflict with the Elites's kin and the followers of thew church. She didn't need to make a reason for the people to go against Nemesis because he was a Bandit King who had slaughtered innocents and the people probably lived in fear of him. That is reason enough.

In the end I agree with what you say about Rhea's main motivation just being to strike down Nemesis, it's one of her biggest flaws as a character - she can get too caught up in revenge against Nemesis or sometimes Byleth to think straight about what she is doing. But I don't agree that she was purely manipulating people, she does care about others a great deal and so thought the war was in the people's best interests as well (Which it may or may not have been. We don't know enough about that era to have massive debates about justification when we have barely any details), and her implementing the crest system and the church was not done to spite or enslave humanity but to help and bring peace to the war ravaged world. I would say the Church was mostly successful although of course with the exception of hiding the truth of crests and idolizing them which she comes to realize at the end. But honestly who would have the incredible foresight to know that later down the line their actions would cause all those problems. I don't think any character can realistically be expected to know that and it's another flaw of Rhea's. Ultimately although her actions causes some undesired consequences, Rhea still did what was best for the people and didn't try to manipulate them. She is not a monster.

I dunno. By her own admission, she wanted revenge. And she also confessed how she did deceive her followers as well. In the end, both the Church and the Empire were originally just a means to an end. However, that's just it.

Originally, it was just for the sake of revenge. 

But after that, she then believed that Sothis tasked her with saving humanity, so she tried to make the Church now work a different way. After all, her goal for revenge ended. But she had the misguided belief that the best way to save humanity was to revive Sothis, which again, was more for her own selfish wish to have her mother back than for the benefit of humanity, by her own admission yet again. 

Of course, this made Rhea just turn the Church from something meant to help humanity to just political tool. Based on what Rhea's actions were and what she tried, it got to the point that the Church just became corrupt with politics. Rhea only did what would make the Church look good or would not threaten the Church's power or position. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I dunno who you think you're fooling. Me or yourself.

I remind you once again, Rhea's admission.

She admits to deceiving her followers and abusing her powers in her S-support but, Rhea literally does not mention anything about manipulating Wilhelm's army or the people of Enbarr at the time, you're just using her quote as some sort of correlation factor, referencing the quote below.

"But the fact that she had to bestow Crests, she had to make an excuse to why they would be opposing Nemesis, who also bears a Crest, along with the Relics as well. So she simply says that they were once champions of the Goddess, but were corrupted by the Relics.

It's a great way of turning a fight of personal vendetta into some righteous war."

You're making it sound like she was some sort of mastermind who knew what she was doing the moment she set into Enbarr before the establishment of the religion, and that she was going to coerce and force the people of Enbarr to follow a religion that has not been established yet. We don't know why people I decided to fight for her (there's more than 1 reason other than they were followers) and she never mentions using her made up story on crests as a way to get people to fight for her. If anything it looks more like a cover up story after the war, than propaganda to get people to fight for her. There's very little information on the time period starting when Seiros enters Enbarr, to the time she met Wilhelm, so it's weird how you're pulling all sorts of conclusions on a time period that the game barely talks about.

Quote

 

Like, not sure how much you wanna deny Rhea's admission when she admits that she did everything for the sole purpose of revenge.

 

"Never said that Rhea didn't have a personal vendetta and wanted revenge against Nemesis, that was something I never brought up in any of my posts."

Idk what kinda strawman argument you are trying to pull with this since, again, it is something I did not bring up in any of my posts and have acknowledged that Rhea's involvement in the War of Heroes was a personal reason. 

Quote

Yeah, see, though I'm certainly not gonna say that Nemesis was a good dude, and I do believe that the continent was not a happy place, I certainly won't be saying that Nemesis is the cause of the problems. The guy had an indefinite period of time before Seiros appeared and created the Empire to have conquered Fodlan himself. Yet he didn't. He already had longevity and power. If he was able to rally an entire army to meet Wilhelm's army and keep the fighting going on for 66 long years,, even go on for 7 of those years past his own death, then he could have conquered Fodlan long before that. But he didn't. 

That's the literal fact of the matter. 

There's limited information on Nemesis other than he was a bandit that lead the Red Canyon Massacre with the push of TWISTD and  helped create the relics, and became a king. There's not much to go off why Nemesis chose not to conquer Fodlan despite his power to make any concrete conclusion.

Quote

Also, really? Rhea appears as Seiros, and uses her powers to fabricate miracles, and is called a "Saint". How exactly is that NOT coercing people and manipulating them to become her followers?

Spiceman said it better than what I could've said. But I'm going to add that we don't know anything about that time period or how Rhea acted, we don't know whether she called herself a saint, whether she forced people into calling her a saint, and how Rhea looked like (if she looked like a haggard woman I'm sure people would've had a different reaction, as opposed if present-day Rhea showed up in Enbarr) all we know is that she created some sort of miracle and met Wilhelm (who was able to save Rhea, which implies that she may have been in a predicament at the time)

Quote

And who is the one that told them of what the goddess was, what the Crest was, and who is the one that is the "Sword of the goddess"? Like, trying to insist that the people made it up and not Rhea is the silliest thing, given that she's the one that acted like some prophet the entire time. 

Prophets being the word of the god, anything Seiros says and claims would be hailed and worshipped by the people as fact. Anything she says, like where Crests came from, what Nemesis was, what Relics are, etc. they would all be things that people would believe because Saint Seiros said it.

Or are you going to claim that the people made up where the Crests came from themselves now?

Again not sure why you're trying to strawman here. I said that the Seiros religion was started up by the public that were impacted in some way by the miracles Seiros performed and hailed her as a saint, I never denied Rhea's involvement in fostering the religion to the point it is in during the game. Never even said that the citizens of Enbarr were the ones that created the preachings of the goddess and stories on crests and Nemesis, all I said was... 

"Or you know, it was the public that was the one to name to religion itself since they were the true founders"

Naming and starting up =/= creating the preachings are 2 different things. My argument is that based on the Book of Seiros quote from the library collection, people wanted some form of religion since they saw Seiros performing miracles which gave them some sense of hope during Nemesis's reign. Again, the game barely delves into the beginnings and creation of the Seiros religion to make any concrete conclusion that the sole purpose of Rhea entering Enbarr was to brainwash the citizens with religion.

Quote

Unless you can actually prove anything against what I'm saying, you have no ground to stand on. I use actual facts and logic, based on what the game itself presents. Also, Seteth trying to protect Flayn and Rhea ignores how Seteth only started being there around 16 years before the start of the game.

Believe it or not, people can interpret the game in more than one way. Just because I didn't necessarily use the game the same way you did (even though I did cite the game, whether you want to believe it or not) doesn't make my or your usage of the game more or less irrelevant (or nonexistent like you're trying to put it). It's interesting how you accused me of using a fan theory with Seteth and book burning, yet you literally admitted to using headcanon to bolster your arguments ("All you are doing is claiming that there's no proof, despite how I did prove it through quotes, and making what amounts to headcanons of what might be the case."). Seteth joins the monastery a few years before Byleth joins doesn't have anything to do with this, considering we know he was involved in the War of Heroes and had a connection to Rhea prior. 

Quote

So before that, Rhea's been the one destroying things and manipulating things for the past thousand years.

I mean the knowledge on the "past thousand years" (which is limited to Rhea and the library collection, and in some cases Edelgard) is rather limited to pull such a concrete conclusion like this. 

Edited by Lunarly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

She admits to deceiving her followers and abusing her powers in her S-support but, Rhea literally does not mention anything about manipulating Wilhelm's army or the people of Enbarr at the time, you're just using her quote as some sort of correlation factor. You're making it sound like she was some sort of mastermind who knew what she was doing the moment she set into Enbarr before the establishment of the religion, and that she was going to coerce and force the people of Enbarr to follow a religion that has not been established yet. There's very little information on the time period starting when Seiros enters Enbarr, to the time she met Wilhelm, so it's weird how you're pulling all sorts of conclusions on a time period that the game barely talks about.

"Never said that Rhea didn't have a personal vendetta and wanted revenge against Nemesis, that was something I never brought up in any of my posts."

Idk what kinda strawman argument you are trying to pull with this since, again, it is something I did not bring up in any of my posts and have acknowledged that Rhea's involvement in the War of Heroes was a personal reason. 

There's limited information on Nemesis other than he was a bandit that lead the Red Canyon Massacre and created the relics, and became a king. There's not much to go off why Nemesis chose not to conquer Fodlan despite his power to make any concrete conclusion.

Spiceman said it better than what I could've said. But I'm going to add that we don't know anything about that time period or how Rhea acted, we don't know whether she called herself a saint, whether she forced people into calling her a saint, and how Rhea looked like (if she looked like a haggard woman I'm sure people would've had a different reaction, as opposed if present-day Rhea showed up in Enbarr) all we know is that she created some sort of miracle and met Wilhelm (who was able to save Rhea, which implies that she may have been in a predicament at the time)

Again not sure why you're trying to strawman here. I said that the Seiros religion was started up by the public that were impacted in some way by the miracles Seiros performed and hailed her as a saint, I never denied Rhea's involvement in fostering the religion to the point it is in during the game. Never even said that the citizens of Enbarr were the ones that created the preachings of the goddess and stories on crests and Nemesis, all I said was... 

"Or you know, it was the public that was the one to name to religion itself since they were the true founders"

Naming and starting up =/= creating the preachings are 2 different things. My argument is that based on the Book of Seiros quote from the library collection, people wanted some form of religion since they saw Seiros performing miracles which gave them some sense of hope during Nemesis's reign. Again, the game barely delves into the beginnings and creation of the Seiros religion to make any concrete conclusion that the sole purpose of Rhea entering Enbarr was to brainwash the citizens with religion.

Believe it or not, people can interpret the game in more than one way. Just because I didn't necessarily use the game the same way you did (even though I did cite the game, whether you want to believe it or not) doesn't make my or your usage of the game more or less irrelevant (or nonexistent like you're trying to put it). It's interesting how you accused me of using a fan theory with Seteth and book burning, yet you literally admitted to using headcanon to bolster your arguments ("All you are doing is claiming that there's no proof, despite how I did prove it through quotes, and making what amounts to headcanons of what might be the case."). Seteth joins the monastery a few years before Byleth joins doesn't have anything to do with this, considering we know he was involved in the War of Heroes and had a connection to Rhea prior. 

I mean the knowledge on the "past thousand years" (which is limited to Rhea and the library collection, and in some cases Edelgard) is rather limited to pull such a concrete conclusion like this. 

Really? She literally admits that she deceived her followers, and that she helped with the creation of the Empire and gathering followers to help get the power to oppose Nemesis... and you're still trying to argue things in circles and overall shifting the blame to others? That's basically what I'm noticing in the majority of your arguments, where you just present alternative theories that shifts the blame to other parties and that Rhea didn't manipulate anyone, arguing against what Rhea herself admitted.

I mean, seriously, at this point, what are you going to say next? 

In the end, you didn't, in any way, refute my point. Rhea admitted that she propagated a false history and deceived her followers. And admitted to having been desperate for revenge. 

Also, you originally tried to argue that there's no evidence that Rhea created the religion for the sake of getting revenge on Neemsis. Then you tried to argue that there's no proof when when she lied about Crests, when it's obvious that it'd have to be in the Church of Seiros's own religion, which was created when Seiros appeared in Enbarr. Then you tried to argue semantics in that Rhea didn't start the war cause Wilhelm made the mode in the history books, despite how everything Wilhelm did was according to Rhea's will. 

You've been working pretty much trying to dance around the point quite often. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/16/2020 at 4:14 PM, vanguard333 said:

which isn't in the marketing, that is naturally interpreted to be a secret fourth, non-default route.

It was though, you see clearly Byleth and Edelgard fighting in the trailers. I originally thought the silver snow reunion scene would be near the end game, right before the "death of the flame emperor" cutscene or that they'd be one cutscene/alts of on another. My impression from most of the trailers was that you'd have to work to join her side given the dialogue and theme song playing over the trailers. That said I also thought she'd end up an unwilling church stooge and that the church was evil from the trailers, but that's because I merged the Western church, the Central church, and those who slither as one organization in my head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

It was though, you see clearly Byleth and Edelgard fighting in the trailers. I originally thought the silver snow reunion scene would be near the end game, right before the "death of the flame emperor" cutscene or that they'd be one cutscene/alts of on another. My impression from most of the trailers was that you'd have to work to join her side given the dialogue and theme song playing over the trailers. That said I also thought she'd end up an unwilling church stooge and that the church was evil from the trailers, but that's because I merged the Western church, the Central church, and those who slither as one organization in my head.

Frankly, that was the biggest plot twist. That the Church was not the pure evil that we all expected. Instead, it's an institution with a stagnating doctrine that caused Fodlan to become corrupt. 

Definitely the most morally grey story in the franchise, that's for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/16/2020 at 12:22 AM, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; Solon is really bad. One of the worst parts is that, when he dies, he defiantly insists that Thales will finish what he started. I'm sorry, but Solon didn't start anything, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess that Solon is never mentioned by Thales in part 2 of any of the routes. The game just completely forgets Solon after he is killed.

Verdant Wind/Silver Snow and Crimson Flower bring him up in part 2 iirc.

In the former it's monastery convo from Ignatz trying to piece together what exactly was the purpose of his shenanigans and what he meant about saying he was "a savior of all". In the latter case, Hubert mentions him when explaining to Byleth how he and Kronya once served Lord Arundel before the timeskip.

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Frankly, that was the biggest plot twist. That the Church was not the pure evil that we all expected. Instead, it's an institution with a stagnating doctrine that caused Fodlan to become corrupt. 

Definitely the most morally grey story in the franchise, that's for sure.

Yeah, I liked that as well. Even then, I've heard some people find annoying how little reasons Edelgard's route give you to think the church's actually is an issue other than "Rhea's evil and literally a monster!!!", which in hindsight I find weird mostly because in practice everything shady about the Church begins and ends with the person running the institution in the first place AKA Rhea herself, and the followers end up as "bad guys" mostly by association and loyalty. I do think it's a huge missed opportunity the game never brings up the implications of Rhea and the Inmaculate One being the same person and how many cans of worms that revelation creates in the first place.

In that same sense, it disappoints me how little Silver Snow dwells on the church's flaws (if at all), in particular because Seteth's solo ending outright states he does some reforms to make the church more tolerant and progressive, which at no point is it ever brought up during the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Moltz23 said:

Yeah, I liked that as well. Even then, I've heard some people find annoying how little reasons Edelgard's route give you to think the church's actually is an issue other than "Rhea's evil and literally a monster!!!", which in hindsight I find weird mostly because in practice everything shady about the Church begins and ends with the person running the institution in the first place AKA Rhea herself, and the followers end up as "bad guys" mostly by association and loyalty. I do think it's a huge missed opportunity the game never brings up the implications of Rhea and the Inmaculate One being the same person and how many cans of worms that revelation creates in the first place.

In that same sense, it disappoints me how little Silver Snow dwells on the church's flaws (if at all), in particular because Seteth's solo ending outright states he does some reforms to make the church more tolerant and progressive, which at no point is it ever brought up during the story.

Yeah, seems like unless the Church kicks a puppy, very few seem to really realize the subtle evils behind it. I mean, geez, Lonato rebels with civilians, and we all feel bad, but apparently, people end up defending the Church for it and say that Lonato was all the way in the wrong, despite how he has every legit reason to be angry at Rhea and oppose her. 

Frankly, if you wanna get technical, Lonato is 100% right that Rhea's an infidel. Rhea's religion is a sham. She believes in her mother, the progenitor god Sothis. But the goddess Sothis that Fodlan believes in is not the same Sothis. If you go by the commandments, Lonato acts in accordance to the commandments. But because Rhea knows her religion is fake, she violates every commandment. So Lonato, by the laws of the Church, is justified. While Rhea, on the other hand, is the one that violated the law. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, seems like unless the Church kicks a puppy, very few seem to really realize the subtle evils behind it. I mean, geez, Lonato rebels with civilians, and we all feel bad, but apparently, people end up defending the Church for it and say that Lonato was all the way in the wrong, despite how he has every legit reason to be angry at Rhea and oppose her. 

Frankly, if you wanna get technical, Lonato is 100% right that Rhea's an infidel. Rhea's religion is a sham. She believes in her mother, the progenitor god Sothis. But the goddess Sothis that Fodlan believes in is not the same Sothis. If you go by the commandments, Lonato acts in accordance to the commandments. But because Rhea knows her religion is fake, she violates every commandment. So Lonato, by the laws of the Church, is justified. While Rhea, on the other hand, is the one that violated the law. 

I haven't even finished my first route of the game (Crimson Flower), but I think one of the possible reasons why people don't really realize the subtle evils is that, while there is plenty of discussion about the various decisions, system issues, morality, etc., there's almost no discussions on those matters between people who disagree. 

I was recently informed by a friend that, in the Crimson Flower route, if you have Byleth fight Dimitri, he gives a fairly well-reasoned (as well-reasoned as can be given his emotional state) if a bit surface-layer criticism of Edelgard's actions, and Edelgard's response is basically, "No, you". …That kind-of sums it up; no one ever makes any rebuttal or argument; at least none worthwhile, and what we see are basically speeches and isolated decisions. Don't believe me; think about it. In all of part 1, before you have to choose "side with Edelgard" or "side with the Church", when was there ever any scene of back-and-forth? The scene after defeating the Flame Emperor and before the decision would've been the perfect time for some much-needed back-and-forth, but the closest thing we get to any is that, if you have Edelgard fight Rhea in the next chapter, Rhea yells at her for rebelling, and Edelgard responds that she's only an enemy of the church; not the goddess.

This wouldn't be so bad normally, but a story centered on grey-and-grey morality and nuance needs disagreement; especially if you're trying to highlight a system's flaws or corruption. I mean; I normally am one to detect subtleties in a narrative (though admittedly usually not on the first watch), and while I noticed some of the Church's subtler issues, the way it was handled and presented was still jarring and somewhat confusing to me, even though I understood what was going on. 

 

I wouldn't defend the Church about the Lonato situation; the problem is that the game does. It's made clear that Lonato's a misled pawn of the Western Church, who themselves are implied to be fanatical misled pawns of TWSITD, as their attack on the church is revealed to have been orchestrated by Arundal as part of a deal with Edelgard that gets him the Death Knight in exchange. In Ashe's paralogue, he puts sole blame on the Western Church for Lonato's death. When he finds the information the Western Church had that they apparently used to get Lonato to find for them, Ashe is clearly shaken about it, but he doesn't discuss it, and it is never brought up again. If you recruit Ashe (which I did), he says that he's sided with the Empire because he wants to find out the truth about Lonato's rebellion, and that's it; it just gets dropped after that. The way the game frames everything places sole blame on The Western Church, to the point where the sole thing presented to be the Central Church's doing, is Rhea sentencing those misled Western Church pawns to execution after the failed theft. 

 

59 minutes ago, CyberNinja said:

It was though, you see clearly Byleth and Edelgard fighting in the trailers. I originally thought the silver snow reunion scene would be near the end game, right before the "death of the flame emperor" cutscene or that they'd be one cutscene/alts of on another. My impression from most of the trailers was that you'd have to work to join her side given the dialogue and theme song playing over the trailers. That said I also thought she'd end up an unwilling church stooge and that the church was evil from the trailers, but that's because I merged the Western church, the Central church, and those who slither as one organization in my head.

My bad; yes, that scene was in the trailers. My point was that the trailers place a strong emphasis on "Three Houses, Three Paths" and heavily feature Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude fighting each other as well as their individual perspectives and goals. It strongly paints a picture of "You pick a house, and you go down a path of following that House Leader". 

Because I was unaware that there was going to be a church route, I thought the scene of fighting Edelgard would be a moment in Crimson Flower; a moment where she nearly crosses a line and Byleth has to stop her. Incidentally, there were plans for a similar scenario to what I described, but with Dimitri in Azure Moon, which potentially would've resulted in certain characters abandoning Dimitri, but those plans were dropped. 

Edited by vanguard333

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Spoiler
Quote

 

Really? She literally admits that she deceived her followers, and that she helped with the creation of the Empire and gathering followers to help get the power to oppose Nemesis... and you're still trying to argue things in circles and overall shifting the blame to others? That's basically what I'm noticing in the majority of your arguments, where you just present alternative theories that shifts the blame to other parties and that Rhea didn't manipulate anyone, arguing against what Rhea herself admitted.

I mean, seriously, at this point, what are you going to say next? 

In the end, you didn't, in any way, refute my point. Rhea admitted that she propagated a false history and deceived her followers. And admitted to having been desperate for revenge. 

Also, you originally tried to argue that there's no evidence that Rhea created the religion for the sake of getting revenge on Neemsis. Then you tried to argue that there's no proof when when she lied about Crests, when it's obvious that it'd have to be in the Church of Seiros's own religion, which was created when Seiros appeared in Enbarr. Then you tried to argue semantics in that Rhea didn't start the war cause Wilhelm made the mode in the history books, despite how everything Wilhelm did was according to Rhea's will. 

You've been working pretty much trying to dance around the point quite often. 

 

This will be my last post but, idk why you're trying to strawman. It's hard to debate on a topic when someone else is trying to strawman and use a bunch of extreme conclusions on a topic the game barely touches on as some sort of argument. I've already made it clear that I'm well aware Rhea's involvement in the war was personal (aka revenge against Nemesis) yet you still insist that I keep arguing against this fact and brought it up repeatedly for whatever reason. I literally never mentioned that WIlhelm made the mode in the history books or even wrote them in the library, yet you mention that is something I did when all I pointed out was the primary source of information we have on what happened in the past was through the library. Game mentions Rhea and Wilhelm worked together but we literally no 0 on their relationship dynamic, yet you still insist you know all the answers and that Wilhelm was subservient to Rhea because Rhea said Wilhelm was dedicated to her cause (which can be interpreted multiple different ways, and not just in the way you find to be right). Literally didn't mention anything about how Rhea did 0 manipulation, when I mentioned multiple times that Rhea manipulated history and pointed out her S-Support confession where she admits to deceiving her followers but, you still chose to ignore that. 

Anyways, apologies for derailing the thread, did not want to make another Rhea bad / Edelgard good side story like what some people have done previously.

RE:Lonato, yeah I agree that this was something the game should've expanded upon. The Western Church is similar to how I feel about TWISTD as in they aren't the most well-written or fleshed out villains. Game tends to put the blame on the western church but, we never really get to see the side of the western church and why they are so against Rhea/Central church (I think it had something to do with the power dynamic of the 3 churches but Idr that much). Also I never thought about how they completely dropped Ashe's reasons for joining the Empire, as CF route never brings up Lonato again (except through Ashe's supports if you viewed them late ig) which is a bit of a bummer honestly since his motivation was never explored. Interestingly enough, he ends up finding out more on Lonato's motivations through Catherine who isn't available in CF. 

I also wished that the dark side of the Church was more fleshed out (maybe that'll happen in the Abyss patch since a group of people living  under the monastery intrigues me as to why that even happened in the first place). SS Route imo shouldn't really have brought up the Kingdom or Alliance (which is why I find Alliel chapter very out of place) since they get mentioned once and it's done and just focused that screentime on the church or BE students. Considering BE house has a split path, also would've wanted to see more of Rhea in Part 1 (on a personal interaction level like outside of her giving missions, since there aren't too many of those)? If people will be forced to choose a side, I feel that I would've wanted to see both sides fleshed out more since personally, Edelgard's motivations are fleshed out (at a surface level scale to give the player a push to pick a side) in part 1 while Rhea's motivations requires more digging in part 1. Though I can't really picture a back and forth (akin to Dimitri and Edelgard's back and forth in AM route) with Rhea and Edelgard but it would be interesting to see their ideologies clashing.

Edited by Lunarly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Lunarly said:

I also wished that the dark side of the Church was more fleshed out (maybe that'll happen in the Abyss patch since a group of people living  under the monastery intrigues me as to why that even happened in the first place). SS Route imo shouldn't really have brought up the Kingdom or Alliance (which is why I find Alliel chapter very out of place) since they get mentioned once and it's done and just focused that screentime on the church or BE students. Considering BE house has a split path, also would've wanted to see more of Rhea in Part 1 (on a personal interaction level like outside of her giving missions, since there aren't too many of those)? If people will be forced to choose a side, I feel that I would've wanted to see both sides fleshed out more since personally, Edelgard's motivations are fleshed out (at a surface level scale to give the player a push to pick a side) in part 1 while Rhea's motivations requires more digging in part 1. Though I can't really picture a back and forth (akin to Dimitri and Edelgard's back and forth in AM route) with Rhea and Edelgard but it would be interesting to see their ideologies clashing.

It's not like there weren't opportunities. The Flame Emperor would've been a good way to do so, as they could've had a mission or a scene that involved responding to an act of rebellion against the church that not only is the Flame Emperor responsible for, but is also present for; a moment where the Flame Emperor called out the Church of Seiros for specific acts of corruption that the Flame Emperor is committed to bringing an end to, and one of the Knights of Seiros or even Rhea herself could be the character the Flame Emperor is speaking to. 

Barring that, the moment in chapter 11 before you choose Crimson Flower or Silver Snow would have been a great moment to do so. Both characters are right there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Barring that, the moment in chapter 11 before you choose Crimson Flower or Silver Snow would have been a great moment to do so. Both characters are right there. 

The fact that it's not is almost baffling. I've seen multiple people say they accidentally went down Crimson Flower because that option there is the closest the game comes to presenting an opportunity to say "Hey, let's talk about this guys."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Jotari said:

The fact that it's not is almost baffling. I've seen multiple people say they accidentally went down Crimson Flower because that option there is the closest the game comes to presenting an opportunity to say "Hey, let's talk about this guys."

I agree; it really is almost baffling, but even then, it wasn't really; the option is "Edelgard just revealed herself to be the Flame Emperor whose motives were never made clear and whose actions were very limited and off-screen until now, and Rhea is ordering Byleth to execute her. No discussion. Do you do as Rhea says, or side with Edelgard?" I'm fine with a snap decision so long as there's enough proper buildup to it that I can maintain immersion and think as I would if I were there. 

To quote myself and my initial review of part 1 (Crimson Flower):

Quote

Speaking of the Flame Emperor reveal, the big decision moment that decides whether you side with Edelgard or the Church has to be one of the most disjointed plot events I have ever seen!

So, you've just defeated Edelgard, and Rhea is demanding that she be killed for basically committing acts of rebellion against the church. Okay; I'm invested in this moment; thinking as Byleth, my student I went to that tower with after the ball and whose coronation I attended has just turned on me and turned out to be the Flame Emperor, who I know was working with the people who killed my dad. But she's my student, and nothing about her motivations has so far been stated or made clear. Right now, what I want is answers; I'm screaming for answers; "Why, Edelgard; why?!" I'm desperately wanting to tell Rhea, "She's my student! I will hear her out first." 

But, I'm not allowed to ask for answers; the game is forcing me to decide now, without any information. How am I supposed to decide? I have nothing to go on! All I have is that it turns out that Edelgard has been attacking the church and helping Those Who Slither in the Dark for currently unknown reasons. It is then that I notice that the other students, who were all shocked by Edelgard's seeming betrayal, have not only gone silent, but disappeared entirely. They're not screaming, "Why, Edelgard; why?!" They're not offering their input on the situation. They're not even just standing there looking horrified; they're just not there. They're always there in every other important scene where they're present, but not this one. I just can't tell what's going on! How am I supposed to choose! I experienced three big problems with this:

  • Had I not known already that I need to choose "side with Edelgard" to play the Crimson Flower route, I might have picked the other option; thinking it was the intended route; not the secret route, and I can't imagine that I'm the only one. I can only imagine how many players may have accidently chosen the Church route and thought they were playing Edelgard's route.
  • The fact that I had to think of which route I wanted to go down in order to decide killed my immersion. I couldn't think the way I would in Byleth's position; only as what I wanted to do as the player. This may not sound so bad, but immersion is important for any amount of emotional investment in a story.
  • I was so busy going, "What's going on?!" and not getting any answers that literally every subsequent scene leading into the next chapter were deprived of their emotional resonance for me. All the students choosing to side with Edelgard could've been fantastic, but I spent the whole thing going, "Why are you all giving exposition of where you were when the choice happened? At least now I know." The scene where you stand beside Edelgard as she asks the students if they'll stand with her could've been very moving, and I wanted to be moved, but I was too busy thinking, "Can you please tell me what we're actually doing and why?" When Edelgard personally thanks me for siding with her, that should've been the heartwarming moment that potentially dispelled any lingering doubts about siding with her. Instead, I'm thinking, "Okay... I only sided with you to play this route of the game; I had no idea what was going on."

I just don't understand how this moment was so botched. All I needed was the opportunity to ask Edelgard "why?" or even for Edelgard to give her reasons unprompted, or at least in response to Rhea's angry remarks, and for the students to at least be there. Every other plot-relevant scene has had these so far; why is this, the most important moment in part 1, the exception? 

Side-note: after Rhea explicitly states, "Her rebellious heart cannot be allowed to keep beating", I really wanted to have Byleth say something like, "You mean like how my heart doesn't beat at all because of what you did to me?" That maybe could've been another reason to side with Edelgard if the game had let me say anything like that. 

Everything was all there; it just needed some appropriate buildup to match what a big moment of decision it is, and disagreement would've been perfect for said buildup.

I've seen people compare Three Houses; particularly the Crimson Flower route, to Code Geass. But, as bad as that show was, at least that show had discussion and disagreement; in the first season and pre-Euphemia Incident (the worst TV moment I have ever seen), there was clear back-and-forth, especially between Lelouch and Suzaku over whether internal reform or revolution was the best solution, but also between other characters as well, and these moments of disagreement played a huge role in thoroughly (if almost cartoonishly) exploring just how bad the system was and what the problems with it were. One of my favourite scenes early on was a discussion between Lelouch and Kallen as they witness a Britannian being cruel to a food-stand owner,  and Kallen wants to rush in and protect the guy, but Lelouch points out that he's seen the Britannian come here multiple times and, if she protects the guy that day, then the Britannian may treat him even worse on a day she's not there or something like that. Such a small moment of two characters disagreeing over the moral ramifications of a minor situation that really illustrated both how the two characters approach situations and just how bad the bigger problems are.

I admit that I may have forgotten a few small moments in Three Houses because I play it when I actually can, but I can't recall a single moment in Three Houses that's even remotely similar. The closest I can think of is Hubert and Ferdinand's arguments over what makes a good advisor in their support conversations. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I've seen people compare Three Houses; particularly the Crimson Flower route, to Code Geass. But, as bad as that show was, at least that show had discussion and disagreement; in the first season and pre-Euphemia Incident (the worst TV moment I have ever seen), there was clear back-and-forth, especially between Lelouch and Suzaku over whether internal reform or revolution was the best solution, but also between other characters as well, and these moments of disagreement played a huge role in thoroughly (if almost cartoonishly) exploring just how bad the system was and what the problems with it were. One of my favourite scenes early on was a discussion between Lelouch and Kallen as they witness a Britannian being cruel to a food-stand owner,  and Kallen wants to rush in and protect the guy, but Lelouch points out that he's seen the Britannian come here multiple times and, if she protects the guy that day, then the Britannian may treat him even worse on a day she's not there or something like that. Such a small moment of two characters disagreeing over the moral ramifications of a minor situation that really illustrated both how the two characters approach situations and just how bad the bigger problems are.

I admit that I may have forgotten a few small moments in Three Houses because I play it when I actually can, but I can't recall a single moment in Three Houses that's even remotely similar. The closest I can think of is Hubert and Ferdinand's arguments over what makes a good advisor in their support conversations. 

Edelgard has some subtle moments where she discusses it with Byleth, but the fact that so many people were shocked by the reveal says it was either too subtle or just not enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sid Starkiller said:

Edelgard has some subtle moments where she discusses it with Byleth, but the fact that so many people were shocked by the reveal says it was either too subtle or just not enough.

Huh. I myself was only shocked by the reveal because:

  1. The Flame Emperor seemed too tall to be Edelgard; even ignoring the giant plume on their helmet. It's especially jarring since the Flame Emperor is wearing regular boots while Edelgard is wearing heels. 
  2. I did not expect the Flame Emperor to be someone who easily could've been killed during Kostas' attack that was planned by said Flame Emperor. 

The game is not subtle at all about Edelgard being the Flame Emperor if you pick Black Eagles. The problem is that the Flame Emperor's motives against the Church or goals in general are never even remotely made clear; the most we get is, "I am the Flame Emperor, and I will reshape Fodlan!" because the Flame Emperor is such a non-presence throughout part 1. One of the Flame Emperor's only two interactions with Byleth is to tell Byleth that they weren't involved in the event that happened. Amon in LOK was a better masked-revolutionary antagonist, and I'm including after the twist revealed that he was actually just a bloodbender with daddy issues. 

Besides, my point was that there was never any disagreement; never any debate or discussion between two characters who fundamentally disagree, and that's something that's almost essential for a nuanced story like this. Even Path of Radiance, an overall pretty basic good vs evil story, made sure to have discussion and disagreement when it was time for some nuance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I agree; it really is almost baffling, but even then, it wasn't really; the option is "Edelgard just revealed herself to be the Flame Emperor whose motives were never made clear and whose actions were very limited and off-screen until now, and Rhea is ordering Byleth to execute her. No discussion. Do you do as Rhea says, or side with Edelgard?" I'm fine with a snap decision so long as there's enough proper buildup to it that I can maintain immersion and think as I would if I were there. 

Oh yeah, snap decision makes sense, my point was more that the game had laid so little foundation for basically anything that the Edelgard decision was the closest to actually sitting down and talking that people legitimately mistook it as joining Edelgard, even though the game expressly warns you the decision will change the plot.

27 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

 

I admit that I may have forgotten a few small moments in Three Houses because I play it when I actually can, but I can't recall a single moment in Three Houses that's even remotely similar. The closest I can think of is Hubert and Ferdinand's arguments over what makes a good advisor in their support conversations. 

It;s actually rather impressive how little Dimitri and Edelgard manage to actually say in their meet up before the climactic battle in Azure Moon. It's basically "I want to change the world" "Yes, but your methods!" No discussion on what changes exactly, what regime she plans to replace it with, how the current world is flawed. There aren't even any offers of concessions, nor even threats or ultimatums. For a diplomatic meeting there is a shocking lack of actual diplomacy. Neither of them actually state what they want from this conflict beyond vague platitudes. Really makes me wonder why Edelgard bothered to even show up. Sure she says it's a whim, but like, didn't she want to gain something from the conversation. There isn't even a call for an unconditional surrender.

Edited by Jotari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I agree; it really is almost baffling, but even then, it wasn't really; the option is "Edelgard just revealed herself to be the Flame Emperor whose motives were never made clear and whose actions were very limited and off-screen until now, and Rhea is ordering Byleth to execute her.

The weirdest part about that is the Flame Emperor in the other routes actually bothers to give a reason as to why she's raiding the Holy Tomb in the first place (which differs between each house), while in the Black Eagles route absolutely no explanation is given unless you stick to Silver Snow and talk to Hanneman later. That, and the fact the route doesn't have a build-up scene for the Holy Tomb Ceremony for some reason - which BL and GD do get - makes me wonder if the whole thing could've been a deliberate design choice (and an odd one at that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh yeah, snap decision makes sense, my point was more that the game had laid so little foundation for basically anything that the Edelgard decision was the closest to actually sitting down and talking that people legitimately mistook it as joining Edelgard, even though the game expressly warns you the decision will change the plot.

I think you and I are in complete agreement; the game did not lay enough foundation for the decision moment. I had no idea that people accidentally picked "join Edelgard"; thinking it was, "Can we at least discuss this?" For me, noticing that that there was no, "Can we discuss this?" option or prior discussion-for-the-foundation/buildup killed my immersion. 

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It;s actually rather impressive how little Dimitri and Edelgard manage to actually say in their meet up before the climactic battle in Azure Moon. It's basically "I want to change the world" "Yes, but your methods!" No discussion on what changes exactly, what regime she plans to replace it with, how the current world is flawed. There aren't even any offers of concessions, nor even threats or ultimatums. For a diplomatic meeting there is a shocking lack of actual diplomacy. Neither of them actually state what they want from this conflict beyond vague platitudes. Really makes me wonder why Edelgard bothered to even show up. Sure she says it's a whim, but like, didn't she want to gain something from the conversation. There isn't even a call for an unconditional surrender.

Interesting. I currently plan to play Golden Deer after finishing Crimson Flower, followed by Azure Moon and Silver Snow respectively. Sounds like I'm in for some very weird moments. 

 

1 hour ago, Moltz23 said:

The weirdest part about that is the Flame Emperor in the other routes actually bothers to give a reason as to why she's raiding the Holy Tomb in the first place (which differs between each house), while in the Black Eagles route absolutely no explanation is given unless you stick to Silver Snow and talk to Hanneman later. That, and the fact the route doesn't have a build-up scene for the Holy Tomb Ceremony for some reason - which BL and GD do get - makes me wonder if the whole thing could've been a deliberate design choice (and an odd one at that).

The Crimson Flower route seems to get the short end of the stick for a lot of important things. For another example: where's my cinematic three-way-fight in part 2? I'm going to guess that Silver Snow doesn't have that cutscene or battle either. Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

I haven't seen the Holy Tomb cinematic (as I have yet to play the other routes), so I wonder if it (and Edelgard giving an actual reason for the raid) would've helped. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...