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Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar


Would you use this weird thing?  

105 members have voted

  1. 1. Round 1: Holy Knight?

    • Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where I make a Holy Knight.
      71
    • No, I can't see an application or justification for Holy Knight over other classes
      34
  2. 2. Round 2: Battalion Renewal?

    • Yeah, I think I could see myself using this.
      9
    • No, I wouldn't waste an ability slot on this source of healing.
      70


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We're looking at 40 avoid on Dorothea/Byleth, max, and Dorothea doesn't get a white spell list to make it worth it.  Less than half the cast gets an attack spell other than Nosferatu.  At that point, it's better to equip a proper weapon, instead of relying on spell vamp staying power.

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In a serious playthrough no way, I wouldn't use it. But I am considering it as a New Game+ build on Byleth coupled with Alert Stance+ and as many Crest Stones that have "Conserve White Magic Usage as possible". Because even coupled with White Magic avoid, it reaches the problem of if you're tanking many enemies with it, that spell stock will run out rather quickly.

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Well it's certainly better than Miracle and Poison Strike; the arguments about low skill competition for mages apply extra strongly here.

Beyond that, it's not great, but Faith Prowess is a decent filler skill because it empowers Nosferatu, which is a nice option. Depending on specifics it's entirely possible to double armour knights with it, which is a huge heal and ORKO in one. Another use for it is that when you know your mage is going to be doubled and 2HKOed but really want to leave them in range of an enemy, you can have them set Nosferatu if the healing will ward off the 2HKO. Without the Prowess skill, the chance of missing rises, and so does the chance of eating a critical hit yourself, which makes both these strategies much less viable.

It only survives into the lategame if I'm specifically trying to flex a white magic avoid build, which Byleth CAN do but it's far from his/her optimum build. It's also decent if you want to make use of Seraphim. The other faith attacks are basically trash.

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Depends on the unit honestly. For a unit like Lysithea, Marianne or Byleth I could consider it since they have more then Nosferstu, everyone else I wouldn’t consider however. Even on the units I mentioned above, they all have better options of attack then faith anyway. Lysithea and Marianne have better reason lists and Byleth does better with Physical weapons, so it ends up being so I want to have some extra hit and avoid when using sephiran or aura, or do I potentially want a skill slot for something better. I wouldn’t use it.

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Incidentally I attempted Enlightened One nostank Byleth on Chapter 13. Budding talent and all. He could sustain just fine with 50-60 enemy hit rates, but he wasn't coming close to the kill on anybody. Because of his position, enemies filled up two single file lines coming at him through a forest, but the enemy volume was so high that the rest walked around the terrain after my other units who were trying to pick off kills from a safe distance. There were also thieves in the mix, so of course they could pass by as well. For general use I can't imagine the build would fare any better, as there aren't any chapters or objectives I can think of in which you just need to buy time.

I do see some potential for seraphim users, if only to patch up that spell's accuracy a bit for the monster related maps. Monsters don't have high avoid rates to begin with - no prowess skill, doesn't take advantage of terrain bonuses, but effective damage always breaks a barrier. So it's not weird to have your healer pitch in for a full armor break.

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Currently doing a white magic focused Lysthea to be different since I’m on my sixth run but I’m also playing on a lower difficulty so I can just max all the classes to fill in everyone’s new game + skill catalog for higher difficulty shenanigans.

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Yes, if only because mages tend to not have much competition for ability slots.

Nominate Hero and Astra. And I might as well nominate White Magic Avo +20 while I'm at it.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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The most viable option I see with it is Byleth with his budding talent in faith (white magic avo + 20) and only if he gets Aura; nosferatu alone is not worth an entire ability slot. Other than that, it is only semi-worth it on characters that get either Abraxas or Aura, which isn't very many. Overall, its a no from me dawgs

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I was thinking just equipping a non offensive faith skill to avoid tank for healers. +20avo from skill, +20(or so) from spd. But honestly I usually have my healers equip some kind of light weight spell. 

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Nominate Hero and Astra. And I might as well nominate White Magic Avo +20 while I'm at it.

If we are doing Astra we should just do swordmaster just cause Astra is so hated. Honestly we could just do Hero/Swordmaster since they both share the common problem, being inferior to assassin. (Ig hero has worse because its stat modifier is inferior to assassin and swordmaster) 

But yeah I nominate Hero/Swordmaster

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2 hours ago, Sid Starkiller said:

You know, once we finish this thread, we should make another one for suggesting balance fixes. Then we can just go down this list again.

That will be a while.  I like it!

---

Mages tend to have tight skill slots anyway.  I guess there's an argument for monster maps, but most of them are optional (and I have better ways of dealing with them).  Still, not worth building faith ranks solely to make this skill better.

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5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yes, if only because mages tend to not have much competition for ability slots.

Nominate Hero and Astra. And I might as well nominate White Magic Avo +20 while I'm at it.

I actually considered combining White Magic Avo +20 into this round, but then thought it better to just leave a note about its synergy with Faith Prowess. Since Faith Prowess granted more than just avoid and applied to more units than Byleth and Dorothea, I thought it served better as the focus.

3 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

If we are doing Astra we should just do swordmaster just cause Astra is so hated. Honestly we could just do Hero/Swordmaster since they both share the common problem, being inferior to assassin. (Ig hero has worse because its stat modifier is inferior to assassin and swordmaster) 

But yeah I nominate Hero/Swordmaster

As for Astra, I do have Swordmaster on the list already. Though it seems a tricky yes/no question when Catherine comes in the class and the player will presumably keep her there for the class stat boosts and stat growths in the short time it takes to tutor her in axes and bows for other class options. Maybe the question is best framed as "would you use Swordmaster long-term?" Astra can only be used while in the class, so swordmaster seems like the ideal subject to focus on.

Hero I think is plenty different to warrant its own round. It's class mastery is one of few defiant skills people seem to like. B Swords and C axes makes it an easier class to certify into, especially for units like Byleth and Felix. And you get Vantage for free. The class also saw long term use in this guy's LTC. But if the playthrough weren't LTC with so many restrictions he probably would have classed Seteth into something else and grinded out equippable vantage to pull off the same enemy phase build.

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8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yes, if only because mages tend to not have much competition for ability slots.

Nominate Hero and Astra. And I might as well nominate White Magic Avo +20 while I'm at it.

Wjit magic avoid would probably just get similar results to Faith Prowess given that both are essentially asking the question of "Would you make a build dedicated to white magic use?" Aka if you're equipping one then you're probably equipping the other (if it's available to that character).

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Yes to Faith prowess, at least on units who have a chance of fighting with Faith magic. Seraphim users, in particular. Also anyone who's going Bishop, Holy Knight, or Gremory will probably be reaching Faith Prowess Lv. 4. As for midgame, Lv. 3 or even 2 is better than Miracle, at least. Arguably better than HP+5. Honestly I think there's space for Reason and Faith prowess, especially since magic levels don't naturally give a breaker skill.

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Round 10 is the Great Knight class. Here is the strawpoll link. And here are some notes:

  • Great Knight certification "requires" the user to have B+ in Axes, A in Armor, and B+ in riding. This is more skill ranks than what is required by any other class in the game.
  • The only units in the game that have proficiency in all three skill ranks are Ferdinand and Gilbert.
    • Interestingly, Dedue and Raphael seem set up for fortress knight, but have a weakness in Riding, making Great Knight a very costly choice for them.
  • Great Knight's class skills are Canto, Axefaire, and Lancefaire.
    • Great Knight and Paladin are the only classes available for men that have lancefaire as a class skill, so it pairs well with the brave lance and swift strikes combat art that Seteth, Ferdinand, and Sylvain can use.
  • The reward for mastering the Great Knight class is Defiant Defense.
  • Great Knight's growth rates are pretty poor. The paladin and Fortress knight classes have the same modifiers, but Paladin adds +5% Dex, +5% Luck, and +10% Res, while fortress knight provides +10% Def. 
  • Great Knight does have weaknesses to both horse and armor slaying weaponry.
    • Like any mounted class, you may negate your riding weakness by dismounting. It is impossible to negate your armor weakness.
  • As one final point in the paladin's favor, not only does it have 1 point of movement over Great Knight, but a dismounted paladin still has 6 move, while a dismounted Great Knight has just 4.
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Great Knight would be great if you don't want your game to be to easy.

If your playstyle includes moving tanks, or warping tanks to chokepoints. The downside is that using tanks are quite unpopular as sweeping is far more preferred.

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You mean, "that thing I always promote Sylvain into"?

On lower difficulties, it does just fine, but I would stick to one.  Not sure if it's worth the investment in Maddening, but Weight -3 rocks.  Baiting melee things never gets old.  But I can understand why people wouldn't use it.

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I voted yes for Great Knight because I used it on my first time through (CF) with Ferdinand. However I'm not sure I can actually think of a scenario where I'd ever use it again. Even with all of Ferdinand's proficiencies it took so much effort to get him there. I went through Paladin first which meant I also had to train his lances, so that may have slowed things down. However, going through Paladin did help raise his riding rank. If I sent Ferdie through Armored Knight/Fortress Knight that might have been better. 

It might be better for Ferdinand on SS over CF because you get so much more time to train his weapon ranks. Also since you lose Edelgard, your team is going to be exceptionally squishy, and there's more of an argument for sending Ferdie through Armored Knight-->Fortress Knight-->Great Knight for less effort. Ferdie would have to use axes, so you'd lose Swift Strikes. If you want to keep him using a lance I'm not sure that I really see any benefit over Paladin.

Seteth, Ferdinand, and Sylvain will all want to use Swift Strikes on Maddening. Wyvern gives them lots of mobility and Paladin gives them Lancefaire to boost Swift Strikes. The one thing that Great Knight has over Wyvern is Lancefaire, but I'm still not sure I see much benefit over Paladin for any of them. 

You could also make Hilda a Great Knight, which isn't horrible since she has Armor and Axe proficiencies. I just struggle to see why Great Knight for her over other classes.

Gilbert's probably the most likely candidate since he already has B in axes and armor, so if you keep using him as a Fortress Knight you can focus your efforts on raising his riding to B for a shot at the exam. That might be the right answer - it's a decent option for Gilbert because unlike everyone else, it's actually less of an investment to go for Great Knight than Wyvern or another class.

I think the class really suffers in Three Houses compared to other titles primarily due to it being a lot of effort for marginal payoff and because it's a tanky class in an extremely player phase-oriented game

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In the context of Hard, Yeah. Not great but it's basically a less bulky Fortress Knight with more Move, and a Less offensive More bulky Paladin, no need for extremes on Hard so an inbetween works fine.

Maddening is very different. For a unit in offense, Paladin is better in every way apart from baiting, (and against some enemies it's worse since the Paladin may avoid being doubled) and worse it's defensively than Fortress Knight since it has a lower modifier. (It's only by two, but without Quick Riposte that equates to 4 points of extra damage.) So statistically it falls short in comparison to it's most similar classes. The benefit i could see using it over Paladin is maybe you want to sacrifice a tiny bit of offense for a bit more bulk, and  for Knight you want to sacrifice some defense for more mobility. So from here it looks like a middle ground that you might use if your paladin isn't bulky enough or if you can't spare using Reposition on your Fortress Knight it seems decent, but then you have to get into the certifications.

The Beginner Class/Brigand or Cavalier/Paladin/Great Knight and Beginner Class/Brigand or Armor Knight/Fortress Knight/Great Knight are the two class paths most suited to get to Great Knight. Here lies it's biggest issue. Paladins suddenly need to train both Axe and Armor, which they never need to use for any previous classes apart from Brigand. Fortress Knights suddenly need B+ Riding (or at least C to have a good chance of passing) This can end up hampering from their skill experiences in other areas, such as higher Authority, Getting closer to S rank weapons, or Going further in Riding/Armour for Movement +1/Weight -5. The only unit that isn't hurt by this sudden change is Ferdinand, due to his budding talent meaning it won't take him too much longer if he solo focuses Armor. (And of course Gilbert, but that's more because he has Base C riding, But i'll get back to him.) For easily the hardest class to certify into, the reward is less than Steller, when you could easily just stay in your current advanced class for better growths and focus on stats, or for the sudden change in needing Riding/Armor and Axes you could just focus on Solo Brawling/Axes Brawling for War Master, or Flying Axes/ Solo Flying for Wyvern, Two better classes that take the same amount of effort to certify into from Paladin/Fortress Knight.

Gilbert is the exception, due to starting with C riding, B axes and B armour, he can easily get the Great Knight certification to 100% within two chapters. So the question there is whether to use it over Paladin/Fortress. I personally don't think Mixed Bags work on maddening, and would prefer the extra tankiness or extra offense, but if you want a mix of both i guess Gilbert can fill that role for you, even if i like to use him as a dedicated tank.

 

tl;dr No, For what the class does there are generally better options, and even if you do want to use it, it's certification is such a pain with no clear class line going into it.

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