Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The class honestly feels like it belongs in the level 20 tier with far lower skill requirements. Looking at the finer details of the class and advantages of the paladin and fortress knight, it definitely feels like an inbetween of the two classes just as it was in previous games. The only remarkable thing it has compared to level 20 classes is two weapon fare skills. I definitely wish the class felt like an evolution of the paladin or fortress knight, since both of those classes can prove surprisingly balanced around optimized, maddening mode play.

I did vote yes, however, as I am genuinely using it for Ferdinand in Maddening. Ferdinand did not turn out well at first. Having gone the noble > soldier > brigand class progression up to level 21, he had just 12 speed before certifying as a paladin which brought him up to 14. 50% speed growth, 4 out of 20 level ups. While noticing his speed screwage I decided his only path to viability lay in treating speed like the dump stat it was and betting everything on swift strikes and obtaining weight -5, which led me to Great Knight. He had his moments, but was still firmly the weak link of the team. He also lacked his good buddy Lorenz for chapters 13-16- something I was not previously aware of happening on SS.

[Jotari]

Why go great Knight when you can go Wyrven Lord, useually more easily too? I've honestly never even made anyone a Great Knight on any playthrough with the exception of throwing Byleth at auxiliary maps in order to unlock all skills. I might make a tank one on a future playthrough purely out of experimentation and not because the class has in anyway enticed me.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Jotari

[Cysx]

Well catastrophic speed not being a huge problem anymore in maddening really helped this class imo, allowing swift strike users more flexibility in whether they contribute on enemy or on player phase, or both, when Paladin tends to work best as a hit and run class from my experience, and fortress knight is fortress knight. So there is merit to its existence, even though it takes work getting to it. On paper, anyway; haven't touched the class outside of hard mode. The training does take away from getting to S+ in lance(or whatever else you're going for) which is doable in a timely fashion for Paladin as a final class, so eventually its PP would suffer for it, but that alone doesn't make the class useless.

Didn't really follow the "meta" for the last two months btw, so apologies in advance if I start saying dumb stuff... moreso than usual at least:p

[Flere210]

The only axe user that may have serious trouble getting in WL is Dedue, wich happens to also have a weakness in riding anyway, so there is little point. Even if you somehow need huge defense for a map, you can bring a fortress knight and Stride/Warp it where it's needed. Forrtress knight has the utility of setting your defense to 17 if you unlocked weight -3 on the way to WL and you need not to go further for a guard adjutant. 

If the requirements weren't so strict, it would be a decent class, but requiring both riding and amor make it something you need to seek on purpose, and there is no point into seeking this when it's harder to reach than WL and both requires axe.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I don't like to dismiss a class just by saying Wyvern Lord is too much better... but really, Wyvern Lord is too much better. GK has marginally more defence (+3 or +5 depending on whether mounted) but even that only translates to situationally more durability since speed is a big deal for not being doubled (no matter what speed you're at, a drop of -6 to -8 speed is going to get more enemies doubling you than before on Maddening; enemies like Warriors and Paladins are a concern in this area in particular), while WL has far more offence and mobility, and is easier to qualify for. Maaybe on Azure Moon (fewer flying batallions) with a character who learns Swift Strikes you could convince me GK has merit, but A in armour is a rough requirement (that's a lot of time that isn't going towards authority, lances, or Move+1). Maybe Seteth since he'd actually like to pick up Smite due to missing out on time in a Beginner class? I dunno. Inclined to vote no, but it's not completely devoid of use.

[Azure the Scale Tipper]

I can only think of making Sylvain, Ferdinand, or Gilbert a Great Knight, and even then I don’t think it is much better of an option than Paladin or Fortress Knight. Is investing so much into axe and armor ranks worth slightly more damage on Swift Strikes for the likes of Sylvain and Ferdinand? Is it worth sacrificing incredible defense for higher movement?

For right now, I’ll say no.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I voted yes on Great Knight, because I see it as largely an upgrade for Fortress Knights. I'm planning to make Gilbert into one on my current BL playthrough (he has the ranks and proficiencies for it). Getting Canto and +3 move is just so good, even at a slight cost to bulk. Previously, I ran Petra through Armor -> Fortress -> Great Knight; kind of a meme build, but fun and surprisingly effective.

First playthrough, though, I had Ferdinand run Cavalier -> Paladin -> Great Knight, and found myself reverting Ferdinand to Paladin. That transition (losing 1 move mounted, 2 dismounted, perpetual armor weakness, lower speed stat) was in no way worth it. Especially when it means raising two ranks (Axe and Armor) you may have not used at all.

Relative to Wyvern Lord, it's definitely worse, although WL is harder to reach for, say, Gilbert. Honestly it may be worse than Wyvern Rider, I'm not sure, although you lose Lancefaire going that way. As for "why not make Gilbert a Paladin?", he's not doubling non-Armors anyway, and Axefaire is better than Terrain Resistance.

How to make Great Knight actually good? Honestly, just give it better stats. I can understand losing speed and resistance, but its Strength stat should far outstrip those of Paladins (for the record, Fortress Knights should get higher strength too). Boosts in Dex and HP would be nice, too. Flying classes should be nerfed as well, making Great Knights a decent option comparatively.

EDIT: Also would relax the requirements slightly, to B+ Armor (rather than A), B+ Riding (unchanged), and B+ Axe OR Lance. This way it's more approachable for Paladins who may have not trained in Axes. Also may be easier for Fortress Knights who don't have a boon in Armor. Finally, the class should give units points in Riding AND Armor, rather than just Armor.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
More potential changes to Great Knight.

[Shadow Mir]

For Gilbert, yes, as he has the ranks to get to it. Otherwise, probably not.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Round 11 is the Wild Abandon combat art, suggested first by @Shadow Mir. Here is the strawpoll link. And here are some notes:

• Wild Abandon applies +10 MT, -30 Hit, and +30 Crit and costs 5 durability.
• The units that unlock Wild Abandon are Petra, Caspar, and Raphael.
  • Looking at the learned combat arts of these characters, there's a fairly average amount of competition. Raph and Caspar will eventually get Healing Focus, and also have Shove. Caspar's Bombard has a total monopoly on the final slot unless you're keen on sticking with Grappler long term. Petra's a bit more open. Assuming Repo is one slot, and Smash takes up another, it's between Wild Abandon and Finesse Blade. I've used both, and had issues with both. Wild Abandon always missing, while Finesse blade just tacking on single digit damage for a unit that doubles most opponents anyway.
• I find myself comparing most axe combat arts to Smash, and Smash tends to win out in any category other than MT, but Wild Abandon's combination of MT and Crit really lets the damage ramp up to a level where the gamble in accuracy may seem worth it.
  • then again, Smash/Killer Axe+ is also +55 crit rate on a much more accurate move, assuming you're willing to pay those repair costs. You only get five shots of that maximum.
• Since accuracy is the biggest issue, a unit using Wild Abandon might want to spec into more hit rate from batallions or even Hit +20. 
  • Caspar gets some automatic help from his personal skill reducing adjacent enemy avoid by 10.
  • The most accurate axe is actually the forged mace at 90 hit.
• Wild abandon is perhaps most effective in monster battles, especially if you can't double. Monsters are very susceptible to crits and have low avoid (since they lack prowess skills and can't take advantage of terrain bonuses). There is no axe natively effective against monsters to pair with this combat art, but when they happen to have a weakness to axes, a wild abandon crit can possibly one shot.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Glennstavos

[Dark Holy Elf]

Probably not. Smash/Helm Splitter combo is just too good.

In particular, Helm Splitter is -3 mt but +30 hit compared to Wild Abandon. Given how powerful Silver Axe+ Helm Splitter already is, it's unlikely that 3 might will make the difference in a KO, while "not having -30 hit" helps in reliability a lot, since you'll be using Wild Abandon with Silver+ or Killer+, both of which have 70 hit. Some axes like iron have more hit, but you aren't going to use this combat art with iron, since the point is power. And there's no point hyping the mace, either, since Helm Splitter also hits weakness on armours, and thus Silver Axe+ Helm Splitter is both more damaging and more accurate than Mace+ Wild Abandon, both against armours and not.

Agreed that maybe, maybe, there's a point in monster-heavy battles, especially for Raphael and Caspar since Petra is almost always doubling monsters.

[Elephantus]

I can see myself trying it for monsters, yes. Not using that skill much otherwise though because it doesn't fit my playstyle. I like to avoid using Divine Pulse whenever I can, so anything that puts me at risk of having to use it is not something I'll use regularly.

Requesting Venin Weapons.

[Vitezen]

Any combat art could conceivably have a situation where you'd consider using it. If there's a time where you may need +10 MT and +30 crit to kill, you will want Wild Abandon.

[Elephantus]

4 minutes ago, Vitezen said:

Any combat art could conceivably have a situation where you'd consider using it. If there's a time where you may need +10 MT and +30 crit to kill, you will want Wild Abandon.

That's fair, but the problem is limited slots - you only get three, and unless you plan ahead each battle, chances are you won't have some of the more niche picks equipped once that rare situation arises.

[eclipse]

Great for monsters.  Also great if you can pin the target down with an offensive battalion first.  Though Caspar with Hit +20 more-or-less makes up for it.

In other words, MAYBE if the battle called for it.  Otherwise, I'd shove something else into that slot.

[Shadow Mir]

No. Axes are inaccurate enough without a massive -30 hit. It doesn't help that two of the units who get it are weak in bows and have a hard time picking up Hit +20.

[Jotari]

I can see the logic in saying it's great for monster battles, but me personally, I like to kit out my units for any battle rather than changing at the start of each map. And thus I have other counters for monsters. Outside of monsters I just can't see the justification in using it. Hit is just way too important in this game, at least on maddening, to be eating a -30% drop on top of the most inaccurate weapons. Maybe if it scored guaranteed criticals I'd consider it, but as it is I don't think I've ever even used this skill in game just because that reduction is so unappealing when there are other options around.

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, Vitezen said:

Any combat art could conceivably have a situation where you'd consider using it. If there's a time where you may need +10 MT and +30 crit to kill, you will want Wild Abandon.

On paper, yes. But in actual practice, I'd have to jump through an insane amount of mental hoops to justify giving Wild Abandon one of my three combat art slots over just about anything else as -30 hit on an axe combat art is just that bad.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Wild Abandon could have a Windsweep effect tacked onto it and I'd still be hesitant to use it. -30 Hit on axes is just that bad.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

+10 Might and +30 Crit sound meaty, but they're deceptive. You have to hit in the first place to crit, so -30 hit means your chance of hitting, and critting, doesn't go up by that much.

Raphael and Caspar will, in most cases, do more damage with a pair of Iron Gauntlets than with Wild Abandon. Especially after getting Strength+2 and Death Blow from class mastery. In theory, WA would be better against high-defense enemies... but most of those are Armors, whom you're better off using Helm Splitter (or Smash!Hammer, or doubling with Mace) against. They probably want Healing Focus, and possibly Shove/Smite, in their arts list anyway.

Petra may have more of a case for it, with easier access to Hit+20 from the Archer class. But even then, she's fast enough to do more damage doubling with the Training Axe, especially after Death Blow. Or she can use a sword, or put on her own pair of Gauntlets, or again go Smash!Hammer or HelmSplitter against armors. As for arts, she'll almost certainly have Curved Shot, and possibly a Sword art and/or Tempest Lance, depending on the direction you take her.

It's a no from me on Wild Abandon.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

12 hours ago, Elephantus said:

Requesting Venin Weapons.

Oh, right, I never added it to the OP. In fact, this round was going to be that. But lately I'd run into an issue where I'd realize there's still some minute detail to research when I'm laying out the notes for a topic. In this case, whether the desert monsters drop venomstones consistently. Can't get the damn map to spawn.

Anyway, looks like I'm the only "yes" on this one. It's just for Petra, since she has nothing in her combat art list worth equipping. Mainly because she doesn't spam combat arts often anyway. Her speed was high enough to avoid doubling in the early game when I put her on a sword instead of axe. So the early game Smashes were Wrath Strike in her case. I've run Repo, Smash, Wild Abandon for mid/late game, and I've certainly used Wild Abandon more than Smash, but I doubt I used it more than a half dozen times and at least one was a miss leading to a divine pulse.

[Flere210]

To patch the hit penalty you can use a more accurate weapon, but Training Axe Wild Abbandon is weaker and less accurate than Silver Axe Smash. Using it whit Mace to hit armors may work, but it's still worse than Hammer Smash. I can see it mayyyybe if you manage a lot of Hitrate on Caspar so you can reach 100% even whit the penalties, but is this build even possible, let alone practical?

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

 

Petra's a bit more open. Assuming Repo is one slot, and Smash takes up another, it's between Wild Abandon and Finesse Blade. I've used both, and had issues with both. Wild Abandon always missing, while Finesse blade just tacking on single digit damage for a unit that doubles most opponents anyway.

Personally, I'd say she would have much better options for combat arts anyway; Wrath Strike, Bane of Monsters, Waning Shot, Tempest Lance...

17 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Wild abandon is perhaps most effective in monster battles, especially if you can't double. Monsters are very susceptible to crits and have low avoid (since they lack prowess skills and can't take advantage of terrain bonuses). There is no axe natively effective against monsters to pair with this combat art, but when they happen to have a weakness to axes, a wild abandon crit can possibly one shot.

Even then, most monsters have Vital Defense, Giant Wings, or even both. The best you could do is use it on the Giant Demonic Beasts, which have practically no evade.

19 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

To patch the hit penalty you can use a more accurate weapon, but Training Axe Wild Abbandon is weaker and less accurate than Silver Axe Smash. Using it whit Mace to hit armors may work, but it's still worse than Hammer Smash. I can see it mayyyybe if you manage a lot of Hitrate on Caspar so you can reach 100% even whit the penalties, but is this build even possible, let alone practical?

Probably not - you'd need him to get to B authority, as the biggest hit boosting battalions are B rank (good luck with that, with his weakness in authority).

[Zapp Branniglenn]

58 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even then, most monsters have Vital Defense, Giant Wings, or even both. The best you could do is use it on the Giant Demonic Beasts, which have practically no evade.

That's true, though those are barrier skills. The general protocol for dealing with monsters, if you're not interested in their ore, eventually becomes one person creates an opening with a gambit, and your brawlers and snipers target that area to knock out health bars in one go. A Wild Abandon crit is just subbing in for that role.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

That's a pretty poor substitute for the likes of Fierce Iron Fist or Hunter's Volley, which will be much more accurate and have guaranteed damage multipliers.

[Shadow Mir]

42 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

That's true, though those are barrier skills. The general protocol for dealing with monsters, if you're not interested in their ore, eventually becomes one person creates an opening with a gambit, and your brawlers and snipers target that area to knock out health bars in one go. A Wild Abandon crit is just subbing in for that role.

Problem is, like stated earlier, I'd find it very hard to consider Wild Abandon over about any other combat art (-30 hit on a combat art that's used by the least accurate weapon type? No thank you. It's not helping anything that two of the people who get it are weak in bows), and I think 5 durability is a lot to use just to whiff and accomplish a fat load of nothing.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Shadow Mir