Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Pavise is... frustrating. You have to go through a bad class to get it, its activation is random, and it doesn't have a huge impact on the high-defense classes that get it, most of the time. When it does activate, though, it feels pretty good - and Fortress Knight can definitely be mastered by Guard adjutants. I've used it on NG+, but by the time you get it, you'd rather have other skills (Prowess, Breaker, Death Blow, Weight-3, even some raw stat boosters are better). Ultimately, I'm gonna say no to Pavise.

How would I change Pavise? Simple, really - it activates 100% of the time on enemy phase, but reduces damage received (from melee weapons) by 30% of user's Dex, rounded down (with a floor of 1 damage received). This way, it's a decent defensive tool that you can plan around. If you face an enemy with Pavise, its effect can show up in the combat forecast. Aegis would work similarly, but with Bows and Spells.

[eclipse]

So, let's take a look at how to get to Fortress Knight:

You'll need axes and armor.  Axe classes go from Commoner/Noble to Fighter to Brigand/Knight to Fortress Knight.  Knight will help with the armor ranks, while Brigand means faster axe rank.  The notable abilities you'll get along the way are HP +5, Str +2, Death/Armored Blow (let's go with Death Blow), Weight -3, and Axe Prowess 3/Lancebreaker.  Pavise doesn't outdo a single one of those those, so the answer is no.

[lenticular]

Another problem with pavise is that it triggers off dexterity, and most of the best candidates to go into Fortress Knight have pretty terrible dexterity. Raphael, Dedue, Alois, Gilbert and Balthus would be my first choices for a Fortress Knight and of them only Gilbert makes it out of "bad" and up to "mediocre" for his dex bases and growths, so pavise just isn't going to trigger very often most of them time.

[iavasechui]

Awkward on new game real nice to have on new game +

Real nice on the relics it come on.

Edited February 21, 2020 by iavasechui

[SnowFire]

No, but with one proviso.  I believe Nintendo has said that DLC Wave 4 will be the last set and we won't see a long ongoing set of new DLC like Awakening and Fates had.  Let's say that's wrong and 3H releases some proper postgame content balanced around levels 40-60, similar to Awakening's DLC paralogues and DLC challenge maps that were balanced around L40+.  Pavise is a skill that gets linearly better the more often you can activate it, so if Ultimate Power Wars DLC Pack 7 is released some day with level 60 units with 50+ Dex running around, then let's talk; Pavise & Aegis start looking a lot more tempting.  (If 3H gets the equivalent of some of Awakening's skills like Rightful King, say on a relic, it'd get even more interesting.)  Otherwise, just keep the simple but effective HP +5 on instead if you want more tankiness.

[Femboy Advance SP]

I say absolutely yes.    I would never say no to edelgard having a little extra bulk.    I know most people don't like doing this but mastery skills can be achieved in a single auxiliary battle which is what I always do for skills I want for classes that I'm not a fan of. 

[Licoriceallsorts]

I've never made a Fortress knight, or any heavily armoured class. Don't see the use for them'. Mages can annihilate them. Ferdinand is always my Holy Knight; for me it seems to fit his personality. 

[Shadow Mir]

Honestly, I find Pavise irritating - it doesn’t do much for the units that are likely to go to Fortress Knight, and most of them either aren’t likely to care about physical damage or don’t have good dexterity. While some relics have it, they need the appropriate crest, which limits how useful the effect can be; only Felix, Mercedes, Lorenz, Lysithea and Yuri can use it on non-NG+ runs. I dunno...

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Round 22 is the Lord class. Here is the strawpoll link, and here are some notes:

• The Lord class is exclusive to Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude. Its class masteries are the Resistance +2 ability and Subdue combat art. 
  • The Lord class also has Charm as a class skill, providing +3 damage to adjacent allies at all times.
  • Subdue can be used in any class and leaves the target at 1 HP while adding +20 to hit. It's ideal usage is to setup kill experience for another unit, or for doing a little micro-grinding of skill ranks on an enemy by keeping them alive a bit longer.
• The Lord "requires" D+ and C authority to certify into. All of its potential users have a strength in both proficiencies, and a starting sword rank of E+. If I recall correctly they need only one additional rank in Swords just for a chance at certifying as a Lord.
• The Lord class provides bonus authority experience with each round of combat which is pretty unique until post-time skip unique classes become available. It's also worth mention that all three Lords have some high end sword combat arts, making the Lord a good choice of class if the player is going for those as well.

[Silent Mercenary]

Lord gets a Yes from me because Subdue gets a Yes. I like skills that help set up finishes by weaker units or squeeze in a bit more EXP, and Subdue does that in the best form in the series yet, as an optional combat art not tied to a specific weapon (SoV's lord weapons), an always active skill (Elincia's Mercy), or an always active weapon effect (Takumi's Shinai/Niles's Bow). I use it often when the lord doesn't have something more important to do, specially on bosses or monsters I want to set up for someone I'm training. It has disadvantages in being a sword art (not the lord main weapon types) on the contested combat art spots.

However, lord is just a disappointing class, mostly because its skill level bonuses only tie to Dimitri's unique class progression. Edelgard and Claude should have had Axe and Bow focuses or sub-focuses, because they have other classes they'd rather be in for their mastery skills, specially Brigand. Even an infantry-focused Dimitri would rather struggle with an Axe rank for Brigand and/or increase his riding for the eventual Move+1.

Overall, Res+2 is early-game filler, and the class is terrible unless you really want Subdue and already mastered the better intermediate classes. The other benefit I see in the class is getting Dimitri to complete his Battalion Wrath+Vantage combo faster, while focusing his goals for that. Dimitri can get to Windsweep along the way. Claude may also consider it since he gets Finesse Blade and a healing Silver Sword, but if he wanted the Authority earlier for Battalion Wrath, he may as well go through Mercenary for Vantage. Edelgard's axe magic combat art is better than her sword one, and she's closer to Brigand than the other lords, therefore a No in CF, but a possible Yes if going SS where she can help train others before leaving.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Silent Mercenary

[Gordin]

Lords get a yes from me because all of the lords look amazing in that outfit 😉

[eclipse]

Hell yes.  Why wouldn't I want three free damage?

[Interdimensional Observer]

Lord is niche at best, so no.

Res +2 is hardly anything for these lardlings, it needs to be bigger.

Subdue is a waste of a CA slot unless you really need that accuracy or don't have anything better, or, you want to feed kills. But ideally, you should need less than Subdue's extreme 1 HP remnant to feed kills to weaker units. Since Subdue requires mastering the class, you could argue the Class EXP would've been better put into something else. 

Charm would be good if you could unlock it with mastery, but you can't. And because of this, you're kinda undermining the leaders' combat optimization in order to give them this measure of support. Would not Dimitri prefer to Cavalier across the battlefield, Claude shoot from +1 Range, and Edel ride unrestrained a white feathered steed in preparation for getting a scaly one?

 

 

I guess Authority training is a use for Lord, but it depends on what higher rank Battalions are available early, and how much quickly you can get to them. And that is beyond my understanding of 3H.

Oh, Sword training too as others have said, but each leader's good Sword CA is at A. How long will it take for this investment to pay off? 

Claude probably sacrifices the least going Lord, since Barbarossa will mean he has to get used to less bow range eventually.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

[lenticular]

No, except maybe, though probably no.

Spending time in Lord means training up sword skill -- and missing out on extra training for some other weapon -- on a character who probably isn't going to want to use swords longterm. It also means not spending time in another class at intermediate tier, which is definitely the tier with most competition for desirable mastery skills. And after all that, the payoffs just aren't worth it. Res+2 is very meh. Subdue is good at what it does, but what it does isn't all that necessary or useful; I've never had any problems feeding xp to a unit and any unit that was so far behind as to really need to hit 1hp enemies is probably better being levelled up as an adjutant for a while. Charm is nice, but there are a bunch of other adjacency-based skills (Byleth, Flayn, Hilda, etc.) and trying to set up more than one of them at once is usually impractical. It's all perfectly servicable, but not worth the opportunity cost of what I'd be losing out on.

I could see myself taking it if I ever wanted to run one of the house leaders with a build that relies on authority (batallion wrath/batallion vantage Dimitri) or swords (assassin Claude sounds like it could be fun, maybe?) but I've never run such a build so I've never waned to use lord.

[Geenoble]

Depends on when you get lord and the route as well. Dimitri, Claude and Edelgard both want to get two mastery skills from intermediate classes at some point in the form of hit+20 and DB/DB and Darting Blow. From my experience, on Maddening, with the +2 bonus it takes around 5 levels to master an intermediate class. The only time I would ever use Lord on these two is if they master the two classes early and value Charm over extra movement for a specific map, such as Ch 9 for example. Otherwise in wouldn’t give it to them.

However Lord is easily Edelgards best class in SS if you can get her there, since you don’t care about her skills or seeing combat, if she gets to level 10, which is pretty likely since you just train her in faith and she heal spams as a noble/monk for exp, she will eventually get there, where she can become a lord and give +3 damage. 
 

So it’s No on three routes and Yes on one.

[Jotari]

I just don't see the skills Lord provides as useful enough to justify using it seriously (though I have used it in all initial playthroughs for sentimental reasons). Edelgard will want some flying experience for Wyvren Lord or possible mage if you want to go the Bolt Axe route with her (or even Archer for Hit+20, that'd be something worth trying some time). Dimitri's going to be much more useful at this point if you stick him on a horse (and like everyone some time as a Barbarian is nice) and Claude wants to have that Bow Range +1 to avoid counter attacks and generally contribute more. You also obviously want him getting Enclosure as soon as possible. Lord just doesn't provide enough immediate benefits to be more powerful than competing classes and not enough long term benefits to be worth investing the time in when there are other options.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Jotari

[B.Leu]

Aw shoot, missed pavise. 😞
(that's be no btw)

27 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I just don't see the skills Lord provides as useful enough to justify using it seriously (though I have used it in all initial playthroughs for sentimental reasons). Edelgard will want some flying experience for Wyvren Lord or possible mage if you want to go the Bolt Axe route with her (or even Archer for Hit+20, that'd be something worth trying some time). Dimitri's going to be much more useful at this point if you stick him on a horse and Claude wants to have that Bow Range +1 to avoid counter attacks and generally contribute more. You also obviously want him getting Enclosure as soon as possible. Lord just doesn't provide enough immediate benefits to be more powerful than competing classes and not enough long term benefits to be worth investing the time in when there are other options.

It's basically like this, yes all our lords can, but should we ? When you know better, there's much better things to focus on.
And if you want to have Charm, part II classes are there. For Subdue... I use the turnwheel to feed kills. It's cheap and impractical but shhhh.

I say that but actually, yes I totally can see myself using the Lord class.

[Jotari]

Even for subdue kill feeding the fact that you actually have to Master it to get Subdue means it's not something the lord is actively doing. Subdue certainly isn't the worst (the plus +20 hit can be nice, though given the nature of the attack I could you could afford to give it a massive +50 or something boost in hit, that would make it very nice for taking down Falcon Knights or something. Basically a guaranteed hit that won't actually kill), but it is rather circumstantial and is in competition against Feindish/Darting/Death blow among others that are just nicer skills to have. I'd rather just throw on a training weapon than go through the effort, enemies are bulky enough that you can set up kill feeding easily enough without Subdue.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I'm not a fan of the Subdue combat art, and Resistance +2 is a poor mastery reward (although I think there are worse Mastery rewards - Brawler and like half of the Master classes come to mind). Swords are weak enough that a single strike from full HP will rarely "set up a kill" for a weaker unit, and you don't even cancel the counter-attack like Windsweep does. A better way to set up kills is magical attacks from a distance, with Poison Strike. Plus, I've rarely needed to set up kills, save for that one time I trained Flayn as a Pegasus Knight (worth).

Having said that, Authority is good on anyone. Getting to B, and then A, Authority at a quicker rate means getting more options sooner (strong pre-skip options including Gautier Knights, Fraldarius Soldiers, Goneril Valkyries, Cichol Wyvern Co, and Duscur Armored Co, among others). Moreover, each Lord unit has a Sword proficiency, giving them rare combat arts, and Sword specialist classes (ex. Swordmaster Edelgard, Assassin Dimitri, Hero Claude) are definitely valid (if not completely ideal) options pre-skip. Finally, Charm is a legitimately good skill - 3 attack points may sound small, but it can make a world of difference, particularly on Maddening.

For those reasons, I'm pretty comfortable saying yes to the Lord class. It's not a "must-use", but it offers just enough to the units who get it, to be considered a valid option. Also, it's aesthetically on-point for all three of them. A shame Yuri and Byleth don't share access to this class.

[Shadow Mir]

I would say yes to the Lord class. Boosted Authority rate and the Charm ability are good.

[whase]

I know, I said previously I would never say no to a class, but with the lord class I simply can't do a fun run where my whole team is in 1 class, and outside that there's simply a lot better classes to have.

[Ari Chan]

I’m going to say yes solely because it’s one of the few classes that boost Authority Exp.

Also I want to nominate Recovery Roar gambit and Brawler class.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Ari Chan

[iavasechui]

Claude can actually get an a rank sword for his crest which could be fun to use to change things up

[Shadow Mir]

15 hours ago, Ari Chan said:

Also I want to nominate Recovery Roar gambit

Seconding this. Heck, I keep forgetting it even exists...

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On 2/25/2020 at 3:57 AM, Ari Chan said:

Also I want to nominate Recovery Roar gambit

*looks up what the gambit does*

Ugh, who would ever...?

*looks up what battalion it comes with*

...oh that is interesting

Round 23 is the Recovery Roar gambit. Here is the strawpoll link, and here are some notes. 

• Recovery Roar restores the status and eliminates debuffs of any units within 2 spaces of the target. It has 5 uses per battle. 
• This gambit is exclusive to the Kingdom Wyvern Co. battalion, which itself only appears in the Blue Lions battalion guild beginning in Chapter 8.
  • It's a C rank flying battalion that provides 5 phys. atk, 15 Hit, 5 Crit, 4 Defense, and 5 charm when leveled up.
    • This battalion, like its equivalents in the other routes, is fairly likely to be acquired due to just being a buyable flier battalion in the early-mid game with a reasonably low authority rank requirement. And also having pretty great stats among other C rank battalions as well. 
• Recovery Roar is ideally a replacement for the Restore spell. Both aren't incredibly useful all the time, but can reverse a bad situation the player couldn't avoid (like getting hit by a 30 accuracy gambit) very fast.
  • The problem though is that the battalion is unique to the Blue Lions route, and that route gives you Mercedes for free. She has Restore. So unless the player ditches Mercedes or puts her in a non magic class, it's unlikely for this gambit to find a niche beyond free-ing up her turn to do anything else. If anything the Golden Deer crew would appreciate it most due to lacking a Restore user.
• Even if a debuff or status isn't threatening the survival of any of your units, you can hit them with this gambit if you have nothing better to do on this turn for some skill exp. Unfortunately, you cannot use it on units who are already fine.