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Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 22: Lord

Would you use this weird thing?  

93 members have voted

  1. 1. Round 1: Holy Knight?

    • Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where I make a Holy Knight.
      64
    • No, I can't see an application or justification for Holy Knight over other classes
      29
  2. 2. Round 2: Battalion Renewal?

    • Yeah, I think I could see myself using this.
      7
    • No, I wouldn't waste an ability slot on this source of healing.
      60


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44 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I doubt it - Wolves primarily drop Wootz Steel, Wild Demonic Beasts primarily drop Umbral Steel and may drop Venomstones, and Giant Birds drop Mythril mainly.

That reminds me, how about we discuss those? I've never used the venom weapons personally, always viewing them as something that's much better in enemy hands, but maybe someone can come up with a niche for them?

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1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Do you know that there is an axe combat art that deal effective damage to armors, or that you can use lighting axe whit an hammer? There are other tools for orkoing, Bolt axe is for safely chipping. 

I do, but don't care because I have other options that don't eat weapon durability like a Snorlax eats food. And I'd consider better options for safe chip than something that has only 60 base hit.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I do, but don't care because I have other options that don't eat weapon durability like a Snorlax eats food. And I'd consider better options for safe chip than something that has only 60 base hit.

Wich are those option? Thirsus that is better on someone else? Caduceus that is again better on someone else? Trying to use curved shot whit fucking annette? 

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5 minutes ago, Azure, Roundabouted Out said:

I suggest we do Mortal Savant at some point.

Should we? It's got a pretty poor reputation. I know Holy Knight did wayyyyy better than I was expecting, but I think that was owed to most people overlooking the class before ever being asked about it.

40 minutes ago, Elephantus said:

That reminds me, how about we discuss those? I've never used the venom weapons personally, always viewing them as something that's much better in enemy hands, but maybe someone can come up with a niche for them?

Does anybody know a consistent place to obtain venom stones? For how rare arcane crystals supposedly are, I knew I had 15 by chapter 12 in my most recent playthrough, but zero venom stones even now. I'd like to test them out for myself - particularly on monsters. Maddening Assassins have the "poison" skill where they apply it to you based on random chance and I'd have to know if it's random chance for equippable venom weapons as well. The only map I can name where you encounter venom weapons on enemies is the Dorothea/Ingrid paralogue and I never noticed them failing there.

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Yes to the Bolt Axe, I've already said my piece on it. It's a 3-range option for axe-users with a good magic stat, it could have 50 hit and 30 weight and I'd still find it useful.

Incidentally, you do in fact get one for free on non-CF routes: there's one in a chest in Ailell. Arcane Crystals aren't obtained reliably until you can buy them, but they do show up as random items in the merchants' area of the monastery often enough in my experience... no idea what the actual odds are for things like that, though.

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Personally, I found it to be useful on Seteth too. He has a decent magic growth to make actual use out of it.

Just having the option to 3 range should be enough of a reason to be consider usable. Mages with 3 range option r better than mages without 3 range even if they do more damage. Ex Lorenz with Ragnorok. Its good chip dmg and better at killing armor knights than hammer.

I agree that levin sword is better, but still not entirely useless. Its just good on some characters vs the other skills/class we talked about are utter garbage for anybody.

Can we talk about faith lvl 5th(or just any of the levels). I feel its trash since most mages' offensive faith spell is nosferatu. Even if they get other spells, I feel magic accuracy is enough and rather put magic+2. I could see Byleth nosferatu avo+tanking build, but tbh being a flier is much better.

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59 minutes ago, Elephantus said:

That reminds me, how about we discuss those? I've never used the venom weapons personally, always viewing them as something that's much better in enemy hands, but maybe someone can come up with a niche for them?

Now that you mention it, I'm surprised no one else mentioned those.

5 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Does anybody know a consistent place to obtain venom stones? For how rare arcane crystals supposedly are, I knew I had 15 by chapter 12 in my most recent playthrough, but zero venom stones even now. I'd like to test them out for myself - particularly on monsters. Maddening Assassins have the "poison" skill where they apply it to you based on random chance and I'd have to know if it's random chance for equippable venom weapons as well. The only map I can name where you encounter venom weapons on enemies is the Dorothea/Ingrid paralogue and I never noticed them failing there.

All I know is that Giant Crawlers, which you only see in the desert, and Wild Demonic Beasts (which, incidentally, also have the Poison ability) drop them, though it's not a guarantee in either case.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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5 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Incidentally, you do in fact get one for free on non-CF routes: there's one in a chest in Ailell. 

Good catch. I will edit the notes.

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Missed Lifetaker but I don’t see a need for it on NG. The only unit that actually wants to be in Dark Bishop is Hubert and he is too frail to benefit alot from life taker. In terms of other male mages, Hanneman and Linhardt are also too frail, so Lorenz is the only one who can make good use of it, however that means you need to be in DB, meaning he loses black tomefaire and his performance will be worse while he’s in the class. In Ng+ it can be fun however since you can give it to bulky units. I made a renewel, Lifetaker Rapheal build and he was always on full hp. Overall i would say no though.

 

Bolt axe is fun, but i can only really see an argument for it on 2 units, Edelgard and Annette. In terms of Annette, unless she’s a Wyvern or other physical class she’s much better off using her spells since they’re a lot more accurate. Edelgard, whilst her magic is good, she has the second highest strength stat in the game and will probably end up doing more damage to non armor units with a short axe or tomohawk. 

Of course this completely changes with Bolt Axe +. The 3 range makes it better than any of Annettes spells or a Short axe, allowing for easier positioning and more range for linked attacks. The accuracy can be fixed with hit +20 or a high hit battalion so it isn’t a massive bane (Edelgard may struggle to get archer for a bit due to her weakness in bows.) The three range is enough for me to even consider putting it on physical axe users with mediocre magic, since it can effectively replace a hammer or mace in the inventory slot since the bolt axe + has enough might to one shot with helm splitter or kill with doubling, and the three range means you can have somebody trade the bolt axe into their equipped slot, and their support range now increases from 1 to 3 tiles. 

Normal bolt axe i’m pretty hit or miss with but the Bolt axe + is one of the best axes in the game, definitely would use.
 

I’d also recommend discussing heal adjutants as a future topic, since they’re often forgotten when people talk about how attack adjutants are underwhelming and guard adjutants are really good.  

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Forged Bolt Axe is great. Even if it's not killing, three range chip damage can be vital (that's why I give pretty much my entire army an iron bow and curved shot) and there's more than enough weapon slots available to give it to one of your units.

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I say Bolt Axe is good, and am surprised people say it's underpowered.  Like others have said, it's useful just by virtue of being a 1-3 range option that works on enemy phase and doesn't require a combat art slot like Curved Shot.  I have it on Seteth and it's quite good--never his strongest attack, but useful for setting up kills by other units (especially on armors).  The combo of flying and 1-3 range magic damage--with Faire support--isn't really a thing otherwise (until Wave 4 DLC drops).

Regarding Venomstone:  You can get it from the Wild Demonic Beasts (they're the gray ones that have the Poison and Poison Strike abilities).  However, they seem to drop it very rarely; I'd estimate about 5-10% of the time you'll get a bundle of 1-3 Venomstones, and the rest of the time you'll get Umbral Steel.  If you have the paid DLC, it's far easier to get Venomstone by feeding the cats and dogs around the monastery, as they can drop it fairly often, along with the highly sought after Wootz Steel and Mythril.  (Pet food is a good use for all the cheap "share a meal" ingredient fishes from Fistfuls of Fish.)

Edited by ajmiam

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2 minutes ago, ajmiam said:

I say Bolt Axe is good, and am surprised people say it's underpowered.  Like others have said, it's useful just by virtue of being a 1-3 range option that works on enemy phase and doesn't require a combat art slot like Curved Shot.  I have it on Seteth and it's quite good--never his strongest attack, but useful for setting up kills by other units (especially on armors).  The combo of flying and 1-3 range magic damage--with Faire support--isn't really a thing otherwise (until Wave 4 DLC drops).

Regarding Venomstone:  You can get it from the Wild Demonic Beasts (they're the gray ones that have the Poison and Poison Strike abilities).  However, they seem to drop it very rarely; I'd estimate about 5-10% of the time you'll get a bundle of 1-3 Venomstones, and the rest of the time you'll get Umbral Steel.  If you have the paid DLC, it's far easier to get Venomstone by feeding the cats and dogs around the monastery, as they can drop it fairly often, along with the highly sought after Wootz Steel and Mythril.  (Pet food is a good use for all the cheap "share a meal" ingredient fishes from Fistfuls of Fish.)

Looking at the a Straw Poll over 90% are in favour of the Bolt Axe, which is probably close to any standard weapon in the game is going to get. Only one person, Mir, has any issue with it.

Speaking of polls are no more going up in this thread itself?

Edited by Jotari

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1 hour ago, ajmiam said:

If you have the paid DLC, it's far easier to get Venomstone by feeding the cats and dogs around the monastery, as they can drop it fairly often, along with the highly sought after Wootz Steel and Mythril.  (Pet food is a good use for all the cheap "share a meal" ingredient fishes from Fistfuls of Fish.)

The season pass strikes again

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Looking at the a Straw Poll over 90% are in favour of the Bolt Axe, which is probably close to any standard weapon in the game is going to get. Only one person, Mir, has any issue with it.

Speaking of polls are no more going up in this thread itself?

The reason why we switched to strawpoll is because every time a new question is added, users must reanswer all previous questions in order to answer the next one. It's not only an unneeded extra step, but it puts the user in a position where they must try and remember what they voted previously. Another issue with thread polls is that it only goes up to five questions, so we needed a new platform eventually anyway.

I'm a little conflicted on how to answer bolt axe. I've tested out bolt axe like I have with most weapons, but never made the choice to use it in any serious playthrough. But then again, neither of my two serious playthroughs did I have Annette or Edelgard in the party. At least not for the long term in Edelgard's case. While running the numbers, I definitely prefer the flexibility of Lightning Axe. And as for killing armor knights, first off, getting the double on them with a 15 wt weapon is quite the feat on Maddening. Especially with characters like Lysithea struggling to do it with 5WT Miasma. Not saying it's impossible, especially for a darting blow Wyvern with decent strength mitigation, just a little iffy when your speed isn't Petra level of high. Dealing with armor knights is also the one job reserved for my combat-oriented thyrsus mages. If that's taken away from them, I have to face the crushing reality that combat mages are just unnecessary baggage in higher difficulties. And I'm not prepared for that step. And finally, three range chipping is good, but so is fusilade, which provides the ultimate safety net as the opponent(s) get locked down safely away from you. There are two fusilade charges for a map, and I'd be surprised if I ever found two uses for bolt axe, besides the obvious scenario of "the first shot missed"

 

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14 hours ago, leesangstar10 said:

Its good chip dmg and better at killing armor knights than hammer.

Bold: I must dispute that - I don't see it considering most axe users have better strength than magic and that the Hammer being effective against them. Sure, there's Helm Splitter, but I don't think that's gonna be enough (effective combat arts only double the weapon's might), and it eats through 1/6 of the Bolt Axe's durability (assuming +).

14 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Wich are those option? Thirsus that is better on someone else? Caduceus that is again better on someone else? Trying to use curved shot whit fucking annette? 

You talk as though I cannot just have my mages pass them around as needed. Also, Curved Shot? When Annette is weak in bows? 

7 hours ago, ajmiam said:

I say Bolt Axe is good, and am surprised people say it's underpowered.  Like others have said, it's useful just by virtue of being a 1-3 range option that works on enemy phase and doesn't require a combat art slot like Curved Shot.  I have it on Seteth and it's quite good--never his strongest attack, but useful for setting up kills by other units (especially on armors).  The combo of flying and 1-3 range magic damage--with Faire support--isn't really a thing otherwise (until Wave 4 DLC drops).

Underpowered isn't the word I'd use for it, per se. I WOULD, however, say that it practically requires a gimmicky build to get any noteworthy amount of use out of. Well, that, and Awakening was legit the only game to make it usable.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You talk as though I cannot just have my mages pass them around as needed. Also, Curved Shot? When Annette is weak in bows? 

(I think that was the point)

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13 hours ago, Geenoble said:

The accuracy can be fixed with hit +20 or a high hit battalion so it isn’t a massive bane (Edelgard may struggle to get archer for a bit due to her weakness in bows.)

Ditto for Annette.

13 hours ago, Geenoble said:

The three range is enough for me to even consider putting it on physical axe users with mediocre magic, since it can effectively replace a hammer or mace in the inventory slot since the bolt axe + has enough might to one shot with helm splitter or kill with doubling

Like stated earlier, I cannot see Helm Splitter one shotting armors given that they have chunks of HP and Helm Splitter only having double might against armors. And doubling armors with a 15 weight weapon on Maddening isn't something I'm sold on, either.

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It's 28 might + 7 for helm splitter. You need around 100 might to oneshot the tankiest fortress knights of maddening. Not really an option for average units, but can be pulled off whit a dedicated user. Also those guys have less than 15 AS, so you can double them whit just WL base sand a couple strenght and speed procs. 

But then, Hammer would have 30 effective might and hit def, so you need like 50 str to kill them phisically as they have 40+def. You most likely are ok whit using two units to kill one of them.

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35 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Ditto for Annette.

Like stated earlier, I cannot see Helm Splitter one shotting armors given that they have chunks of HP and Helm Splitter only having double might against armors. And doubling armors with a 15 weight weapon on Maddening isn't something I'm sold on, either.

Forgot Annette was bad in bows do thats a fair point.

 

I’ll use Ferdinand as an example here, Ferdinand has 11 magic on average by level 30, Bolt axe has 14 mt, with Helm Splitter his Atk against Armors is 64. In SS/VW/AM chapter 14, Fortress Knights average 58 hp and 7 Res, The FK will be left on 1 health. You’re right about it not being a one shot but people rarely one shot on maddening anyways and 1 hp means even a dancer can kill them.

in terms of doubling, even with a 15 weight weapon physical units can still double armors. Assuming Ferdinand levels in Fighter/Brigand/Wyvern he has 26 str and 25 speed. His AS with a bolt axe is 15, enemy armors in ch 14 average 9 AS. He can double the, and will deal 38 damage on average, which is still pretty good chip. Of course people like Annette or Raph may not double, but Annette can one shot with Helm Splitter thanks to higher Mag, and Raph can still 2rko  Armors pretty easily with Gaunlets. 
 

Bolt axe is still good for chip anyway, not just killing armors, you can deal 8 damage to a warrior From three range, and that’s now enough for your Lysithea/Lorenz/Hanneman etc. to one shot.

Ofc it isn’t better than a hammer, but it’s an alternative that fills a similar purpose in killing armors, whilst having much more overall utility outside of that.

Edited by Geenoble

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58 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

It's 28 might + 7 for helm splitter. You need around 100 might to oneshot the tankiest fortress knights of maddening. Not really an option for average units, but can be pulled off whit a dedicated user. Also those guys have less than 15 AS, so you can double them whit just WL base sand a couple strenght and speed procs. 

But then, Hammer would have 30 effective might and hit def, so you need like 50 str to kill them phisically as they have 40+def. You most likely are ok whit using two units to kill one of them.

Still ain't coming close, as I see it. Realistically, I'd need two units to kill one anyway unless the one is a really powerful mage with Fiendish Blow.

45 minutes ago, Geenoble said:

Forgot Annette was bad in bows do thats a fair point.

 

I’ll use Ferdinand as an example here, Ferdinand has 11 magic on average by level 30, Bolt axe has 14 mt, with Helm Splitter his Atk against Armors is 64. In SS/VW/AM chapter 14, Fortress Knights average 58 hp and 7 Res, The FK will be left on 1 health. You’re right about it not being a one shot but people rarely one shot on maddening anyways and 1 hp means even a dancer can kill them.

in terms of doubling, even with a 15 weight weapon physical units can still double armors. Assuming Ferdinand levels in Fighter/Brigand/Wyvern he has 26 str and 25 speed. His AS with a bolt axe is 15, enemy armors in ch 14 average 9 AS. He can double the, and will deal 38 damage on average, which is still pretty good chip. Of course people like Annette or Raph may not double, but Annette can one shot with Helm Splitter thanks to higher Mag, and Raph can still 2rko  Armors pretty easily with Gaunlets. 
 

Bolt axe is still good for chip anyway, not just killing armors, you can deal 8 damage to a warrior From three range, and that’s now enough for your Lysithea/Lorenz/Hanneman etc. to one shot.

Ofc it isn’t better than a hammer, but it’s an alternative that fills a similar purpose in killing armors, whilst having much more overall utility outside of that.

I dunno about you, but the fact that the only units I could see using it are both weak in bows and thus have a hard time getting into Archer for Hit +20 really hurts it.

I've got some issues with that - one, I'm not seeing him close to level 30 at that point. Second, as effective combat arts only double weapon might, the Bolt Axe would only have 35 effective might in this (blatantly unrealistic) scenario. Where are you getting the extra 18 from? Even if I did assume an Axefaire class, that's still 13 points unaccounted for.

At the same time, though, he's also slowed down to the point where he's at risk of being doubled by pretty much anything else. 

IF you don't miss, which I consider a possibility because axe users aren't known for being accurate.

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Bolt axe is cool for Annette's wyvern build, and you can also just use it on any axe user that wants to hit from 3 panels away. It's an option that doesn't cost you anything except an inventory slot.

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14 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: I must dispute that - I don't see it considering most axe users have better strength than magic and that the Hammer being effective against them. Sure, there's Helm Splitter, but I don't think that's gonna be enough (effective combat arts only double the weapon's might), and it eats through 1/6 of the Bolt Axe's durability (assuming +).

Well this doesn't apply to all units. Just the ones mentioned. Also its better to attack at range so you don't take retaliation dmg since hammer doesn't kill in one hit(or at least from what I saw). I had base magic seteth almost kill an armor knight with bolt axe, I'm pretty sure at least Edelgard can kill without using helm splitter.

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Round 9 is Faith Prowess. Here is the strawpoll link. Notice the question is asking about gameplay past the early game. The reason is that Faith Prowess first shows up at a point of the game in which you don't even have 5 abilities to choose from, so the choice to equip it there is not much of a choice at all until more abilities unlock. By focusing past the early game, my hope is to preserve the nuance of the question. Here are some notes:

  • Faith Prowess begins with 5 Hit, 7 Avoid, and 5 Crit Avoid and upgrades to 10 Hit, 20 Avoid, and 10 Crit Avoid as the user's Faith rank increases from E+ to A+.
  • Most units only have Nosferatu for white magic attacking. That spell has 8 weight, and 1 MT, making it an iffy means of keeping your avoid rate high and for sustaining health. 
  • Faith Prowess stacks with white magic avoid +20, which Byleth and Dorothea can learn by unlocking their budding talents.
  • If luring an enemy with a heavy spell like nosferatu doesn't sound appealing, you can manually equip a heal spell and it will stay equipped as long as you end your turn without attacking.
    • Unlike with weapons, you cannot use the trade command to swap a unit's equipped spell to something lighter.
  • Since most characters stop learning white magic spells at C rank, I don't find myself intentionally raising my faith rank past that point, making it unlikely Faith Prowess will max out.
    • The rewards for reaching S and S+ Faith, White magic Range +1 and White Tomefaire, are also not very enticing as they only affect white magic attacks, rather than enhance your support capabilities in any way.

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