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Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar


Would you use this weird thing?  

105 members have voted

  1. 1. Round 1: Holy Knight?

    • Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where I make a Holy Knight.
      71
    • No, I can't see an application or justification for Holy Knight over other classes
      34
  2. 2. Round 2: Battalion Renewal?

    • Yeah, I think I could see myself using this.
      9
    • No, I wouldn't waste an ability slot on this source of healing.
      70


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I was disappointed with Absorption my first playthrough, but I think that's because I had the Alliance Brawler Duelists (awful name, either be "Alliance Brawlers" or "Alliance Duelists") on... Raphael? Someone with low Charm. Anyway, it has the same range as Dimitri's Wave Attack, or Claude's Ashes and Dust, but it's much worse (only one use, lower accuracy, no effective damage). Still, being a worse version of two of the best offensive gambits in the game is no major failing. It has three more potential effect tiles than Blaze or Poison Tactic, which are similarly one-use.

I can see it (from ABD) being a decent early-/mid-game pick on a physical attacker with high charm, like Claude or Hilda. Post skip CF/SS, you might give Empire Raiders to someone physical with high charm, like Edelgard (CF) or Ferdinand. Of course, the more good battalions (and gambits) you get, the less attractive Absorption looks. On New Game+, I wouldn't bother with either of the Battalions that grant it. Assuming New Game, however...

I'll say yes to Absorption.

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2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Edit: Sounds like you guys are being a biiiiiit too caught up on the hit rate. I definitely wanted to draw attention to it, since the majority of gambits we use are 50 hit, and a lot of my divine pulses on maddening resulted almost immediately or within a turn or two of missing an 85 accuracy gambit, so I won't say the extra points of hit don't matter. But as a post-time skip gambit, you've got 10 divine pulses and the majority of A supports unlocked already. And as for breaking monster barriers, y'know, you're talking about enemies with 0 charm and are bulky enough that you'll be sending more than one guy at them anyway. The difference between a 60 hit Absorption and a 100Hit absorption is just sending that unit as your third attacker instead of your first attacker.

The hit rate is a problem, yes. But it's not the only problem. The two battalions that have it are unimpressive. Also, the C rank one is Alliance Veteran Duelists.

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I don't see what's so wrong with the Empire Raiders tbh.

Came close to using it a bunch of times, and on a low/no paralogue run I could definitely see it being a solid choice. Not to mention, I get some solid mileage out of Blaze just for the aoe, so, I'll agree that the low hit is problematic, but as said, this is a game with divine pulse, if a one use resource is the play to get you out of a situation, you generally have every reason to go for it, unlike in other entries. Wish I came by when Wild Abandon was being debated for similar reasons, rigging crits with superfluous DP charges is definitely something the game allows. At the same time, Smash exists as many of you pointed out

In any case, I'll say yes.

Edited by Cysx
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7 hours ago, Cysx said:

I don't see what's so wrong with the Empire Raiders tbh.

Personally, by that point, I would have accumulated a lot of battalions from paralogues, and I'd be hard-pressed to use ER over most of those.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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20 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Oops, forgot it's a different formula.

Edit: Sounds like you guys are being a biiiiiit too caught up on the hit rate. I definitely wanted to draw attention to it, since the majority of gambits we use are 50 hit, and a lot of my divine pulses on maddening resulted almost immediately or within a turn or two of missing an 85 accuracy gambit, so I won't say the extra points of hit don't matter. But as a post-time skip gambit, you've got 10 divine pulses and the majority of A supports unlocked already. And as for breaking monster barriers, y'know, you're talking about enemies with 0 charm and are bulky enough that you'll be sending more than one guy at them anyway. The difference between a 60 hit Absorption and a 100Hit absorption is just sending that unit as your third attacker instead of your first attacker.

 

There's definitely no such thing as getting too caught up on Hit for me, as I ban Divine Pulse in all my runs. With the user having to initiate in melee, the primary targets I'd want that size of AoE for would be the 3x3 monsters, which almost always match or overtake Byleth's Charm for whatever point in the game it's at (often 50+). Only Byleth and maybe the house leader would be able to push up toward 100% against that and they've all got other way better battalions they'd rather use.

The healing is also largely useless because my units simply don't get damaged 95% of the time.

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4 hours ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

There's definitely no such thing as getting too caught up on Hit for me, as I ban Divine Pulse in all my runs. With the user having to initiate in melee, the primary targets I'd want that size of AoE for would be the 3x3 monsters, which almost always match or overtake Byleth's Charm for whatever point in the game it's at (often 50+). Only Byleth and maybe the house leader would be able to push up toward 100% against that and they've all got other way better battalions they'd rather use.

You are mistaken. Wind Caller has 37 charm. Give or take a point or two if you hold off on doing it. The Immovable has 25, and he's the only of these three available on all three routes that Absorption exists on. The only way Byleth has ended up 6 charm under these guys is if you're not doing the free tea party sessions. The Immaculate One will come close to 50, but your Byleth should be pushing 60 by the end of CF. But yeah, these bosses have decent charm. It's good micro-management for your highest charm units to have your best offensive gambits. These batallions come with 5/7 charm as well. If you're really in a situation where you're getting -30 Hit due to lack of charm, then you can still get to 80 hit through gambit boosts alone. And if their name is Byleth or the're standing next to Byleth, they can slip an accuracy ring from the convoy into their inventory for the turn they use that gambit.

Quote

The healing is also largely useless because my units simply don't get damaged 95% of the time.

Blaze setting tiles on fire is also largely useless but I can think of at least one chapter that would be way harder if that AoE didn't exist.

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At the point I was fighting Wind Caller, my Byleth was still about matched to its Charm. Never fought The Immovable, so can't comment on that. Both Immaculate Ones have something stupid like 52+ Charm, which was actually about 3 higher than my Byleth hit each time. However, the point also isn't that it would be a problem for Byleth, because even at roughly matched Charm, they're usually seeing good hit rates (same for the house leader). The point is that both Byleth and the house leader have other, better battalions they'd rather run (and/or they're flyers), and Absorption ends up being complete garbage on anyone else because they're usually a good 10 (early game) to 20 (end game) Charm behind Byleth. I was barely able to get 50-Hit Gambits up to the 90-100 range against the Immaculate Ones with a couple of my most stacked units with triple links, Hit +20 and an Adjutant. I'm not gonna drop 20 Hit for no good reason.

Must be a Paralogue I haven't played then, since the Blaze DoT hasn't ever contributed any notable damage to my runs. It's never a factor in my decision to use Blaze, anyway.

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18 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

At the point I was fighting Wind Caller, my Byleth was still about matched to its Charm. Never fought The Immovable, so can't comment on that. Both Immaculate Ones have something stupid like 52+ Charm, which was actually about 3 higher than my Byleth hit each time. However, the point also isn't that it would be a problem for Byleth, because even at roughly matched Charm, they're usually seeing good hit rates (same for the house leader). The point is that both Byleth and the house leader have other, better battalions they'd rather run (and/or they're flyers), and Absorption ends up being complete garbage on anyone else because they're usually a good 10 (early game) to 20 (end game) Charm behind Byleth. I was barely able to get 50-Hit Gambits up to the 90-100 range against the Immaculate Ones with a couple of my most stacked units with triple links, Hit +20 and an Adjutant. I'm not gonna drop 20 Hit for no good reason.

 

Well, I wouldn't get so fixated on that single matchup against Immaculate One. She has answers to anything. Including half damage from all sources. So when it's time to go for the armor break you'll be glad to have such large AoEs. Just know that not all of us play without divine pulse. If you never take a risk on a 60 gambit, you're not going to have many options left in Maddening mode besides turtling. And that's not my preferred method of play. 

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Must be a Paralogue I haven't played then, since the Blaze DoT hasn't ever contributed any notable damage to my runs. It's never a factor in my decision to use Blaze, anyway.

You didn't ask, but I was thinking of Chapter 6. The enemies right in front of you line up perfectly for Blaze once you've baited one of them. And since it's a turn 2 Blaze, you can reset if it misses.

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It's two match ups. I also wouldn't use it against the Wind Caller. I realize a lot of people lean on Divine Pulse, yes. The fact that gambling on 60s becomes a regular occurrence is a very good reason never to touch it, though. I'm not going to let my play deteriorate like that.

Turtling is hardly the only strategy when avoiding taking unnecessarily poor hit chances. It's maybe required very early in White Clouds, but once certain units get rolling, it's quite possible to play fairly aggressively, if for no other reason than Canto with bows is so insanely abusable. Enemies will readily break formation and get chewed up for it. While it's not LTC pace, forward momentum is rather easy to maintain. The only place this possibly runs into problems where falling back on turtling starts looking really good is the maps that have the infinite reinforcement spam.

Throwing out a Gambit, hoping it hits, then resetting the map doesn't strike me as remotely good play. Doesn't matter if it's only the second turn of the map.

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1 hour ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

It's two match ups. I also wouldn't use it against the Wind Caller. I realize a lot of people lean on Divine Pulse, yes. The fact that gambling on 60s becomes a regular occurrence is a very good reason never to touch it, though. I'm not going to let my play deteriorate like that.

Turtling is hardly the only strategy when avoiding taking unnecessarily poor hit chances. It's maybe required very early in White Clouds, but once certain units get rolling, it's quite possible to play fairly aggressively, if for no other reason than Canto with bows is so insanely abusable. Enemies will readily break formation and get chewed up for it. While it's not LTC pace, forward momentum is rather easy to maintain. The only place this possibly runs into problems where falling back on turtling starts looking really good is the maps that have the infinite reinforcement spam.

Throwing out a Gambit, hoping it hits, then resetting the map doesn't strike me as remotely good play. Doesn't matter if it's only the second turn of the map.

We all draw the line in different places, but when it comes to evaluating how good things are, personal preference should weigh as little as possible. If it's in the game, it's in the game.

Edited by Cysx
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Round 14 is Swordmaster. Here is the strawpoll link. And here are some notes:

  • The Swordmaster class "requires" A rank in Swords. Its class skills are Swordfaire and Sword crit +10. 
  • The reward for mastering Swordmaster is the Astra combat art, which that unit can only use so long as they remain in the Swordmaster class.
    • Astra is 5 consecutive strikes at 30% of your damage with that weapon normally. General rule of thumb is that your damage will be an additional ~50% the amount of damage of one strike with that sword. You do have five chances to crit, but those crits will be just 90% of the damage a normal swing does instead of 300%
      • It also reduces hit by -10 and costs 9 durability.
  • The Swordmaster class faces stiff competition from Assassin, a class with 1 more Move, no movement penalty in forests, and a greater variety of skills.
  • Why is Catherine excluded?: Because she joins in the class, and I didn't want the poll to be "would you use Catherine". Even if the player has no interest in her staying in this class long term, they can't help but keep her there for at least a little while for the time it takes to instruct her in other skill ranks for more class options.
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To justify 9 durability cost we should have Jugdral Astra. Compared to Fierce Iron Fist or Hunter Volley it's pathetic. 

There are almost no reason to use it over assassin or even Weeb savant, wich at least can be used to sone niche builds. It has better growth rates, but 10% strenght amount to 2 point fron 20 to 40. And learning Astra is useless because it can't be used in a better class.

Fortress knight is the worst class in a vacuum, but at least has some niche utilities and is worty qualifing in it for the 17 defense base. Swordmaster is just outclassed by something you want to qualify for anyway because 3H bows are busted.

Edited by Flere210
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Ah jeez I had no idea astra was that useless this time around.   I still say yes, only because I plan on making ferdie a dodge tank after passing the white heron cup.   But you could argue assassin would be better for this build so idk.   It's a good class if you only care to ever use exclusively swords on a unit but why wouldn't you use bows? 

 I nominate hero as it's a worse swordmaster with it's only boon being an innate vantage which I guess could fill up a slot if you're going for a defiant build, but wyvern lord would always be better for that anyhow.

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2 minutes ago, Femboy Advance SP said:

Ah jeez I had no idea astra was that useless this time around.   I still say yes, only because I plan on making ferdie a dodge tank after passing the white heron cup.   But you could argue assassin would be better for this build so idk.   It's a good class if you only care to ever use exclusively swords on a unit but why wouldn't you use bows? 

Even whitout bows, you get 1 more move, ignore penalties in the forests, get better skills and get slightly more speed. Swordmaster get a bit more HP, defense and strenght, as well as crit+10. Whitout bows they are still fairly similar. 

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I said yes; for what it's worth, it's the only class with Sword Crit +10, which is nice to use with the likes of Wo Dao+ (I know it's possible to get with S ranking Swords, but I don't consider that practical or worth it).

Nominate Hero and Black Magic Crit +10.

51 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Fortress knight is the worst class in a vacuum, but at least has some niche utilities and is worty qualifing in it for the 17 defense base. Swordmaster is just outclassed by something you want to qualify for anyway because 3H bows are busted.

I dunno - qualifying for Fortress Knight sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth unless you're the likes of Dedue or Raphael; even if you were happy with the bare minimum pass rate, you're still looking at needing C+ in Axes and Heavy Armour, which is not easy when most of the character who would like that are weak in axes, heavy armour, or even both.

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I said yes; for what it's worth, it's the only class with Sword Crit +10, which is nice to use with the likes of Wo Dao+ (I know it's possible to get with S ranking Swords, but I don't consider that practical or worth it).

Nominate Hero and Black Magic Crit +10.

I dunno - qualifying for Fortress Knight sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth unless you're the likes of Dedue or Raphael; even if you were happy with the bare minimum pass rate, you're still looking at needing C+ in Axes and Heavy Armour, which is not easy when most of the character who would like that are weak in axes, heavy armour, or even both.

I am 90% sure that i did it at C armor, eich is something you like anyway for weight-3. 

Any character that goes WL like also weight-3 if they can afford it, so if they are def screwed they may try the exam as well. 

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For physical-focused characters other than Catherine: No.  Assassin is always better, since physical characters want to generally invest a little in bows anyway for chip.  +1 Move and ignore terrain costs is too big a deal - it's not a flyer, but it's something.  Stealth is better than +10 Crit as well, even for characters that go a Crit build like Petra.  Catherine herself probably wants to switch over to Assassin in the long run, if not doing anything else exotic like Falcon Knight.

For mages who like Swords: Almost never, but I could squint and see it, at least.  Mage characters don't tend to invest in Bows (barring Hanneman) so Assassin is out.  If you are set on doubling enemies with magic damage, then SM's good speed and speed growth bonuses are nice compared to Warlock / Bishop / Dark Bishop, and will also bring Str up to par for helping offset weight penalties.  Levin Sword+ is still a bit hefty at 9 Wgt but so is most magic, and having 3 range avoids some of the "melee infantry" woes physical SM has.  You'll eventually go Mortal Savant but SM isn't totally crazy on the way there.  Compared to Advanced Mage classes, it's 5 move rather than 4 move, better speed, and a 35 charge Thoron tome handy.  Thing is..  is it really worth giving up all that mage utility?  Dorothea loses Psychic & Meteor.  Lysithea loses Seraphim, Dark Spikes, & Luna (but gets Swordfaire over useless Black Tomefaire, at least).  Marianne isn't doubling anybody anyway and also loses Physic.  I think the only character this might be an acceptable trade for is Manuela, who starts with an E Bow rank, joins a little late, is naturally fast and thus genuinely wants to double, and her utility spells aren't that big of a deal.  Probably still wants to get to MS somehow despite the Reason weakness to turn her healing back on, but I can see some sort of mixed damage SM Manuela build that uses Levin Sword+ & Hexblade to kill stuff with a physical backup.

So that's mostly a no to non-Catherine Swordmaster, although there's at least one possibility that does something unique that isn't straight outclassed by Assassin for Manuela.  Maybe.

Edited by SnowFire
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Swordmaster is fun for 100% crit builds (double Sword Crit +10 and a Cursed Ashiya Sword+, for example). Astra is useless, but you don’t really need it. Add Vantage and Retribution, and a Swordmaster can do some work on Enemy Phase. Felix and Byleth are well suited to this since they both get the Battalion version of Vantage, which is generally better, imo. The only problem is the low Move, but with Warp and Stride, there are plenty of ways to alleviate that. 

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Swordmaster really doesn't have much going for it compared to other classes. It's main claim to fame, Speed, is outclassed by Assassins and doesn't compare to their Mobilty, while it's Crit is outclassed by Warrior is outclassed by them learning Wrath.

Astra is also a skill that's worth no consideration espically considering how fragile high Crit weapons are. 

Really, the only use I can see of it is of you wanted to depend on crits without relying on Wrath. But when a unit can achieve near 100% Crit rates and one shot most enemies, why wouldn't you?

Edited by LoneRecon400
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Swordmaster is just a worse Assassin. It's slower and has less movement. Keep in mind, it's not just 1 point of move - in a full forest setting, the SM can travel 2 tiles, while the Assassin moves 6. For most units without a Bow weakness, B-Swords and C-Bows will be reachable sooner than A-Swords. SM technically has a slight advantage in crit rate and damage, but IMO that's balanced out by missing lockpick utility and boosted bow-rank gain. 

It's a no on reclassin anyone to Swordmaster. Catherine is good, but even she'd rather be an Assassin.

How to make Swordmasters good? Make Assassin a Master class. And/or, turn Sword Crit +10 into +20 (same with all the weapon crit boosting skills). Short of such radical changes, just... turn Astra into something good. For 5 durability, deliver five hits at 50% damage. -10 hit, but +10 crit. Now it's plausibly worth mastering, and staying in, the class.

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3 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I am 90% sure that i did it at C armor, eich is something you like anyway for weight-3. 

Any character that goes WL like also weight-3 if they can afford it, so if they are def screwed they may try the exam as well. 

I was mostly thinking about mages, nearly all of whom are weak in at least one of the two. And this includes both Constance and Hapi.

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I pretty much agree with SnowFire's thoughts.

As mentioned, it seems basically pointless for a physical character. If you want Swordfaire, go Assassin (to emphasise speed) or Mortal Savant (to gain access to utility magic), and you get more move either way. Swordmaster does have slightly more strength than its competition, but really if you wanted to emphasize power you probably wouldn't be in a Swordfaire class in the first place if you're a physical unit not named Catherine.

Weird to think that it's actually slightly more tempting for mages. Aside from Catherine my most effective swordmaster was indeed probably Lysithea, who traded her utility for more raw power (Swordfaire Silver Sword+ Soulblade outdoes een Hades Omega, and Levin Sword's only 2 point weaker than Warlock's Dark Spikes) and a point of move. Overall losing trade? Probably, especially if you place a lot of value on Warp, but not a terrible one. But... even then, you have to put in a lot of sword work for it to be better than Assassin, because going E->C in bows is easier than going B->A in swords even if you have a boon in the latter but not the former. (The argument is of course that the sword exp is less "wasted" for the build.)

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Haven’t said anything for Absorption since i missed it but it seems ok, I’d say yes for the early post timeskip/late pre timeskip but have it phase out when you get better battalions,

—-

On the topic of Swordmaster Imma say No,

people have been mentioning how inferior it is when compared to Assassin, and it is, Assassin has everything apart from a 10% boost to strength, Sword crit +10 and an extra point from modifiers, but even the ability to pass through forests unimpeded is better than all of those. So if i ever wanted to make anyone a SM i would go Assassin instead. Even Catherine gets quickly reclassed to Assassin after picking up some blow skills or Hit +20.

I want to add that I personally think Hero is better, since SM doesn’t really give anything unique and is more difficult overall to certify into considering most physical units want at least D+ Axes anyway for Brigand, so Hero comes more naturally. Hero on the other hand gives innate Vantage, which still isn’t amazing, but can potentially save an ability slot, or more importantly has actual uses in an LTC run, as you won’t have time to get vantage from mercenary. So Hero has a small niche in LTC while SM has basically nothing to it. Hero also has a better mastery skill, and while Defiant Str isn’t that good it looks like Quick Riposte when compared to Astra.

Assassin is better than both anyway.

8 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I am 90% sure that i did it at C armor, eich is something you like anyway for weight-3. 

Any character that goes WL like also weight-3 if they can afford it, so if they are def screwed they may try the exam as well. 

Weight -3 isn’t all that great though tbh. Its an ok skill, but only has uses early game on some units. It can be somewhat decent for units going down the armor class line, or units proficient in armor, but otherwise not only is it not worth the investment, but also utterly outclassed by a better skill. Speed+2 is easier to get than Weight -3 since it only requires E+ swords or D if you want to be rng proof, as well as 30-15 rounds of combat depending on if you have Mastermind/Knowledge Gem. Thats about 1 or 2 maps in a 4 move class, but you can do this as soon as you get the saint statues, so you’re locked to 4 move at a time when your other units will either still be at 4 or have just reached 5 for 2 maps. Getting C armor with a base of E and no proficiency takes a minimum of 8 instructional weeks with focus solely in Heavy Armor, which can take away from other skill ranks. Speed+2 also works with every weapon whereas weight-3 only works with heavy weapons.

I’d actually like to nominate weight-3, along with the non relic/Sacred Shields, so Silver shields, Steel, etc.

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