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Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar


Would you use this weird thing?  

105 members have voted

  1. 1. Round 1: Holy Knight?

    • Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where I make a Holy Knight.
      71
    • No, I can't see an application or justification for Holy Knight over other classes
      34
  2. 2. Round 2: Battalion Renewal?

    • Yeah, I think I could see myself using this.
      9
    • No, I wouldn't waste an ability slot on this source of healing.
      70


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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I was mostly thinking about mages, nearly all of whom are weak in at least one of the two.

That's not true at all, though. Every mage(currently in the game, aka Dorothea, Lysithea, Marianne and Manuela... Anna too I guess) that would want to use swords is either neutral or strong/has a hidden talent in those two. Besides, they're the ones who want Stealth from Assassin the most to compensate for their fragility and lack of canto... not to mention they have very little use for sword crit +10.

It's fine for crit builds, I guess, and at least it's straightforward. Not bad enough for me to say no.

 

Edited by Cysx
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2 hours ago, Geenoble said:

Weight -3 isn’t all that great though tbh. Its an ok skill, but only has uses early game on some units. It can be somewhat decent for units going down the armor class line, or units proficient in armor, but otherwise not only is it not worth the investment, but also utterly outclassed by a better skill. Speed+2 is easier to get than Weight -3 since it only requires E+ swords or D if you want to be rng proof, as well as 30-15 rounds of combat depending on if you have Mastermind/Knowledge Gem. Thats about 1 or 2 maps in a 4 move class, but you can do this as soon as you get the saint statues, so you’re locked to 4 move at a time when your other units will either still be at 4 or have just reached 5 for 2 maps. Getting C armor with a base of E and no proficiency takes a minimum of 8 instructional weeks with focus solely in Heavy Armor, which can take away from other skill ranks. Speed+2 also works with every weapon whereas weight-3 only works with heavy weapons.

I’d actually like to nominate weight-3, along with the non relic/Sacred Shields, so Silver shields, Steel, etc.

Speed +2 is linked whit the worst movement art, so there is the oppurtunity cost of either a better movement art, or not advancing in a better intermediate class, wich also delay the blows.

That said, Edelgard has an average of 13 def at level 20, and there are many people in a similar boat (pretty much everyone but Dimitri, Dedue, Raphael and Leonie) so if you can qualify right away, it's weight -3 and 4 defense. 12 is what you get for qualifying into any advanced, so on certain units we are looking at a boost of 5 points just by investing a few weeks in a skill. 

You need 35 str to not be burdened by a fucking iron axe and those are endgame stats. People can fanboy on training weapons all day long but they are only good if you can't afford anything better. 

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2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Speed +2 is linked whit the worst movement art, so there is the oppurtunity cost of either a better movement art, or not advancing in a better intermediate class, wich also delay the blows.

That said, Edelgard has an average of 13 def at level 20, and there are many people in a similar boat (pretty much everyone but Dimitri, Dedue, Raphael and Leonie) so if you can qualify right away, it's weight -3 and 4 defense. 12 is what you get for qualifying into any advanced, so on certain units we are looking at a boost of 5 points just by investing a few weeks in a skill. 

You need 35 str to not be burdened by a fucking iron axe and those are endgame stats. People can fanboy on training weapons all day long but they are only good if you can't afford anything better. 

Delaying a blow skill vs Delaying 460 exp in a stat is a pretty similar cost all things considered, and getting blow skills isn't the hardest thing ever, same with speed + 2. Late joining units like Seteth and Alois can pretty easily get blow skills. And the improvements of Brigand vs Myrmidon in terms of raw stats isn't that big apart from the movement. So you're basically getting DB a chapter or 2 later, at the cost of having Speed+2 which is a better trade off anyway.

Training Weapons are pretty useful up until like chapter 15, since they can give the highest possible avoid, and they aren't the only light weapon. In terms of Bows and Axes specifically you have the Mini Bow and Mace, which have higher might than the training weapons whilst still having low weights, and even if you only have 25 strength and lose 2 as from an axe, if 2 as was what you needed to double you should have brought a lighter weapon unless you wearn't hoping to double anyway. Most units outside of Assassins and Warmasters will double most enemies only with brave arts, or very light weapons like the Mini Bow. 

The defence boost doesn't really matter much anyway for Wyverns since most of their bulk comes from Avoid Tanking. If you want the base defence of FK, you probably want to be a physical tank and actually take hits, in which staying FK would be the best option. Wyverns shouldn't need the defence anyway as if their in range they've probably used Alert Stance or you've planned on them taking hits, or they canto out of range. 

I won't talk further on W-3 until it's brought up in the Thread.

___

I also forgot to talk about Wild Abandon.

The combat art can be fun to rig some crits with, and it's something i would recommend trying at least once as a NG+ build to reach 100 crit super early on with the units for fun.

By itself, the combat art is ok. The lack of Hit is pretty terrible but so long as you use an accurate weapon or have support bonuses or Hit+20, you should be able to keep decent hit rates against Paladins and Armors. Of course this means relying on other units to have the support boosts, which can potentially lead to it being a reliability, but it has some use.

It ends up being redundent in the face of two other Combat Arts however. Smash and Helm Splitter.

Smash gives only 10 less crit but has a total of 50 hit over WA, This makes it much more reliable, a crit chance of 65 hit and 60 crit for example is much lower than a crit chance of 100 hit and 50 crit. Of course the crit won't do as much damage, but this will only really matter against armors, since you can still easily one shot Paladins (and other enemies since you can hit them with smash)

In terms of Armors, Helm Splitter is a much better choice for killing them Combat Art wise, as it is much more reliable, and even more reliable is a Mace or Hammer, which just makes both redundant in the armor killing purpose.

On Normal Mode i would probably seriously consider using Wild Abandon since enemies have like, 30 avoid tops on normal, but on Hard and Maddening i would never seriously use it.

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3 hours ago, Cysx said:

That's not true at all, though. Every mage(currently in the game, aka Dorothea, Lysithea, Marianne and Manuela... Anna too I guess) that would want to use swords is either neutral or strong/has a hidden talent in those two. Besides, they're the ones who want Stealth from Assassin the most to compensate for their fragility and lack of canto... not to mention they have very little use for sword crit +10.

It's fine for crit builds, I guess, and at least it's straightforward. Not bad enough for me to say no.

 

I was referring to axes and heavy armor in response to a mention of qualifying for Fortress Knight.

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11 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Weird to think that it's actually slightly more tempting for mages. Aside from Catherine my most effective swordmaster was indeed probably Lysithea, who traded her utility for more raw power (Swordfaire Silver Sword+ Soulblade outdoes een Hades Omega, and Levin Sword's only 2 point weaker than Warlock's Dark Spikes) and a point of move. Overall losing trade? Probably, especially if you place a lot of value on Warp, but not a terrible one. But... even then, you have to put in a lot of sword work for it to be better than Assassin, because going E->C in bows is easier than going B->A in swords even if you have a boon in the latter but not the former. (The argument is of course that the sword exp is less "wasted" for the build.)

See, I basically did the same thing, but with Lysithea as an Assassin, rather than Swordmaster. Soulblade with a Devil Sword is incredible power, even from D rank. She loses slightly in crit, but she really doesn't need it. The extra move just helps her so much. I did buy back magic ranks with NG+ and had her dip in Mortal Savant toward the end for Warp support and certain spells (Luna/Dark Spikes/Seraphim). But even then, I reverted her to Assassin at times, for better movement and higher speed with Levin Sword+.

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Crit +10 is fun and sword main units will hit A swords eventually. I've used sword master a few times for fun and even just for the animations. It isn't as good as assassin but it's inoffensive to qualify for and still performs well enough to give it a yes.

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My answer to any class will be yes, since it's fun to try new classes on characters, even if it's a worse option.

Also, sidenote, in my current run (BE maddening NG+) I made everyone a swordmaster, and Astra saved me more than once. Not saying it's a good skill, but it's not worthless. 

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I think the only time you'd want swordmaster is if you get a late recruit that doesn't qualify for anything else, like Felix. But that's solved simply by recruiting the unit earlier. There is no reason to build toward swordmaster because there are better classes.

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Round 15 is Weight -3 and Weight -5. Here is the strawpoll link. And here are some notes

  • Weight -3 and Weight - 5 are acquired from raising Armor rank to C and A+ respectively. 
  • Reducing weight helps up to a point dictated by current equipment. If your strength stat already mitigates whatever you have equipped, then reducing weight further does nothing, not even improving your avoid rate like the speed stat does.
    • But weight mitigation does make accessory options that have weight (like shields) more appealing.
  • While the ability itself is inoffensive, the cost of acquiring it is often compared to other options, such as Speed +2, gardening for speed boosters, or the generally high effectiveness of lower weight weapon and spell options for keeping your AS high.
    • Speed +2 is acquired from mastering the myrmidon class, and is appealing if the player has the opportunity to grind in an auxiliary battle.
    • Gardening is a free action on any explore session, so the only opportunity cost in going for speed boosters is going for any other stat booster.
    • Low weight weapon options can be trade-equipped to in order to get a higher AS for enemy phase, thus never have to be used exclusively. You can't trade somebody's equipped spell however.
  • The only classes that require armor rank are Armored Knight, Fortress Knight, and Great Knight, who "require" having D, B, and A respectively. Furthermore, in order to increase your armor skill rank outside of passive instruction sessions/group tasks and tutoring, a unit must spend time in one of those classes, either on the battlefield, or as an adjutant
  • Alois and Gilbert join with C and B rank armor, respectively, so they have weight -3 from the start. For the sake of fairness, Please answer for the long term in their case since the opportunity cost of abilities for those first chapters you can deploy them would be extremely low when they haven't gotten any class masteries.

Edit: Apologies if this was unclear, as I don't think strawpoll allows you to change your vote, but this round is an And/Or question. So if your answer is yes to one but not the other, then your poll answer ought to be a Yes.

Edited by Glennstavos
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Armor C isn't too bad for units that are proficient in it.  Wouldn't veer off course for it, but it could be worse.  May get replaced, but I'll run it if  have room.

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Weight -3 is definitely worth it for certain units, particularly those who are fast but use heavy equipment like axes (i.e. Hilda). Weight -5 is a lot more niche as you’re really only getting +2 AS over Weight -3 in exchange for much higher investment, and the Armor classes are bad all around. Imo, yes for Weight -3, no for Weight -5. 

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That's a no for me. I don't like using armored units so I would basically need to invest just for those skills. Other skills you naturally come across by that time are worth more imo. Though obviously Alios gets to equip it for a little while.

Though now that I think about it, I'm planning a non-NG+ maddening run, and I plan to recruit Ferdinand fast on blue lions... I actually might get to use it just that once.

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Weight -3, from E rank, costs 300 wexp to reach. It's a commitment, but not a massive one. Situationally better than spd+2, situationally worse, largely depends on your stance on abusing auxiliary battles.

Weight -5 from E rank costs 1760 wexp, and thus 1460 from C. So yeah.

Yes for -3, no for -5.

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Most of my thoughts i said before still stand but i want too add a few things.

---

There's a video by the Youtuber Chaz Aria LLC that basically goes over the argument for Spd +2 vs Wgt -3 that i almost 100% agree with.

___

In terms of the Weight SKill specifically, assuming Speed+2 doesn't exist, or i can't get it due to wanting to master another beginner, since i usually only have the time to master two Beginner classes unless i start grinding. Weight -3 is a skill that all depends on the class and unit, and i want to get gardening stat boosts such as Rocky Burdocks or Ambrosia since i require those stats more than speed.

I would never seriously consider getting it on a Wyvern Lord for two key reasons.

A) That 460 Wexp could go towards Flying, giving a sooner Alert Stance (or Alert Stance+) which makes the unit more efficient for a long period of time. Maybe i would consider getting it long after Getting A+ Flying, but by that point, Skill slots will usually be filled for the most part with Alert stance +, 1 or more blow skills, W prowess, Hit +20, Etc.

B) A maddening only reason. With the exception of speed blessed units, or units that make use of reclassing growths (like Petras 80% speed growth in Assassin for a few levels.) most Wyverns (or even Falcon Knights) Will struggle doubling enemies such as Warriors and Paladins with or without Weight-3, and they will be able to double Mages just fine with a bit of AS loss from Iron Axes, and can Double Armors with some of the heaviest weapons.

The exception to this would be a Wyvern Edelgard, and a Wyvern Hilda due to their Armor Proficiency, and the reason why i wouldn't consider other potential Wyverns with Armor Proficiency, Ferdinand and Rapheal, is because they either have a brave art, or are slow enough where it won't make a difference. Edelgard starts with D and Hilda probably wants some armor rank to pick up Seal speed for the early game.

In terms of Mages and Non Armor grounded Physical Classes like War Master or Paladin. No, Warmaster doesn't need to have less weight since Gauntlets weigh nothing anyway, and in terms of characters that would go into Paladin none of them have need to deviate off their skill paths. Most if not all Mages are weak in Armor.

In terms of Armor Classes themselves,  Armors won't double, however the High Defence is incredibly valuable on a higher difficulty, and the weight - skills can help boost their avoid against their biggest physical threat, Archers. Using it depends on the unit however. For the best Armor Knight Dedue, It;s pretty pointless since Dedue is slow anyway so he won't gain anything meaningful out of it, and his defence is so overkill anyway that him getting chipped by PS isn't as bad since he always takes 0 damage. Same goes for Raph and Gilbert, too slow.

In terms of Hilda and Ferdinand however, (And Lord Edelgard i guess) It has some merit since they will actually have a decent speed stat, (something around 20 on average i believe?) Of course they will still get mostly doubled, but due to Fortress Knights innate Weight-5, you can get up to weight-10 meaning even heavy axes like Freukugial will make you lose 0 AS, allowing for some decent base avoid, and when combined with a good battalion and an adjutant or other support bonuses, can give good avoid against Archers without sacrificing the damage of your unit, since training weapons are mostly used to double, and FK won't be doubling anyway.

There was a recent LP i watched with a Fortress Knight Hilda with Weight -10 and it was much more effective than i ever thought it would be, so that definitely changed my view on Weight -5 at least.

___

Assuming Speed Carrots and Speed +2 exist however, i would much rather use those on the non FK units then ever consider specking into W-3/5

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tl;dr: Yes and No. Depends on Class and Unit and whats available. Since the title of the thread is 'would you use' and not 'would you recommend using this/do you think this is viable and good in comparison to alternatives' I would say yes since i would generally consider using them with some units, but it isn't a universal thing that you want on everyone like the Blow skills.

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For Alois and Gilbert, I would definitely equip them at first when they have no better alternatives, but keeping it equipped depends on what class and if their are no alternatives. For example a on FK Gilbert i would probably drop it since his slow, and probably the same for every other Gilbert class since he has like 6 personal speed base at level 27. Alois is different since if I speck him in FK or WL i see no harm in him keeping the skill, i might phase it out later if i want another skill, such as when i get a crit skill or faire skill, or perhaps i want Defensive Tactics since he takes lots of hits. A WarMaster Alois has no real point however since Gaunlets weigh nothing in face of his Strength.

Edited by Geenoble
Added things on Alois and Gilbert.
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A big part of the question is, who's getting to Armor ranks C+ and A+? I often like to raise any unit who's using Axes to D Armor, so they can certify as an Armor Knight and jump up to 12 defense. From there, C+ for Weight-3 is slightly more achievable than if I were just going from E. Especially if I use that unit sometimes in the Armor Knight class, as a Guard adjutant. It's reasonable to attain, even on units who aren't going all-in on Armor. And making it easier to double, or to not get doubled, is always nice. Admittedly, Speed+2 is sometimes better.

Weight-5, you're probably only getting if you're specializing in an armor class, like Fortress or Great Knight. Possibly excepting units like Raphael or Dedue, whose Armor you can raise while taking them down a Brawler/Grappler/War Master path. So it's usually on people who are slow already. But being able to double enemy Armors, particularly with weapons like the Hammer, is certainly welcome. It's a stronger skill, but the challenge of access makes it viable only on a handful of units.

Neither is super-impressive, but I see just enough utility to say yes to Weight-X skills.

Edited by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
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4 hours ago, Geenoble said:

I would never seriously consider getting Weight -3 on a Wyvern Lord for two key reasons.

The 460 Wexp needed for Weight -3 could go towards Flying, giving a sooner Alert Stance (or Alert Stance+) which makes the unit more efficient for a long period of time. 

B) With the exception of speed blessed units, or units that make use of reclassing growths (like Petras 80% speed growth in Assassin for a few levels.) most Wyverns (or even Falcon Knights) Will struggle doubling enemies such as Warriors and Paladins with or without Weight-3, and they will be able to double Mages just fine with a bit of AS loss from Iron Axes, and can Double Armors with some of the heaviest weapons.

In terms War Master, also no. Warmaster doesn't need to have less weight since Gauntlets weigh nothing anyway.

In terms of Armor Classes themselves, the weight - skills can help boost their avoid against their biggest physical threat, Archers.  On units who have decent Speed Stats, such as Ferdinand and Hilda, can use a good battalion and an adjutant to get good avoid against Archers without sacrificing the damage of your unit by losing a Faire skill.

- Weight -3 is obtained reaching C Armor, not C+. That will only require 300 Skill Experience to reach, which even a unit a unit that doesn't have a boon in the skill can reach in as little as 6 weeks (20 Weekly Training + ~30 on average from Tutoring with the Indech Statue). Alert Stance + also requires too much investment to be really relevant on a unit without a boon in Flight, as getting a unit 1760 Flight exp is quite the tall order.

- Wyvern Lord has a Base Speed of 24, and is capable of making even a slow units such as Caspar capable of doubling even on Maddening with enough buffs. With 4 Cook Bullheads, a Speed Ring, and Speed +2, a base Wyvern Lord could reach 32 Speed without even that much investment. Take a look at what the Doubling Benchmarks are like in chapter 16. That's enough speed for them to double every enemy except for the bosses. Weight -3 helps substantial with reaching doubling benchmarks as something like a basic Silver Axe weighs 10, so it can very beneficial for Wyvern units with speed. 

 -While War Masters may not suffer AS loss because of Gauntlets, with Weight -3 they're capable of wielding heavy Shields such as the Silver or Aegis Shields without any AS loss. Warmaster and Wyverns also have the benefit of certifying as a Fortress Knight at around ~40% chance to pass with C Armor obtain a base Defense of 17 as another class. To give you some perspective, the Average Petra even when certified as a Wyvern won't reach that amount of defense until level 35.

- Using Weight - skills to increase Avoid is not going to be anywhere consistent enough to avoid Enemy Snipers, even when including Battalions,Skills, and Adjutants. Those units you listed never even break over 20 Speed as a Fortress Knight. So at best, Ferdinand can reach around 60 Avoid, which is still going to leave quite the sizable hit rate against enemy snipers. And keep in mind that 1/4th of that avoid is Ferdinand's personal, which isn't going to be on all the time  

Edited by LoneRecon400
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The Fortress knight base defense is better than i tought, because pretty much everyone but the dedicated tanks and Leonie will have less than 14 def at level 20. 3 def and 3 speed for 300 wexp seems pretty good, considering how much you get from other investment.

I am not a big fan of alert stance because i'd rather take an action other than wait if i can, wich is also why i don't like much Dedue's personal, so i'd rather build toward taking the hits or a different kind of dodgetank.

 

Also, i think this game has a bit of a training weapons hell, and the faster i can leave it the better.

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8 hours ago, Flere210 said:

The Fortress knight base defense is better than I thought, since  pretty much everyone but the dedicated tanks and Leonie will have less than 14 def at level 20. 3 Def and 3 Spd is pretty good for 300 Wexp.

It's even better than that since class bases are don't include class mods.

So a unit that has certifies as a Fortress Knight will have a guaranteed 19 Defense as a Wyvern Rider.

Edited by LoneRecon400
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My thoughts on seeing this round: is this some kind of twisted joke?

Weight -3 is great. Let's talk about the best-case scenario: units like Edelgard, Dedue, and Raphael who are strong in armour. They can pick the skill up extremely quickly, at a point where it's basically a free +3 speed with axes and even most swords/lances/bows. That rules. I can't even imagine not doing that with them. Even for people who don't have a boon in armour it's a decent pickup. Maybe you delay your authority rank a bit, whatever, 3 weight mitigation from the time the skill is learned to the time it's finally shoved into the sunset by a better #5 skill (which is well post-timeskip in my experience) is gonna be worth way more over time than the stat boosts from getting better batallions slightly earlier.

But it's even better than that, because the 200-300 skill exp spent getting it serves a second purpose too, especially for axe-users (i.e. wyverns). With armour+axe you can qualify for Armored Knight, and with a little RNG help and/or a push for C+ instead of C (and then only modest RNG help), Fortress Knight as well, which is a defence boost for almost everyone.

Even mages can benefit from picking the skill up, because they don't have many skill options and often run out of things to train later in the game anyway outside of Reason.


Weight -5 is admittedly a no. By the time you get it you don't need it that much, and it takes ages to get if you aren't in an armoured class (and armoured classes are terrible).

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