Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar

[whase]

I had never really thought about class bases to the point of getting weapon ranks just to get the stat boosts, it actually sounds like a good idea, thanks! I like this topic I'm learning a lot here. Definitely going to look at this for my upcoming maddening run. =3

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Round 16 is Seal Skills. Here is the strawpoll link. And here are some notes

• To be clear, we are referring to Seal Strength, Seal Magic, Seal Speed, Seal Defense, Seal Res, and Seal Movement. Saying yes to any of these would be a yes to the poll question.
• The game says the debuff applies for "1 turn" after combat. This is not accurate. They only applies for a full turn when used on player phase. On enemy phase, debuffs are technically applied but wear off when enemy phase ends.
  • These skills have no application on enemy phase, besides seal movement cutting the remaining movement of an enemy with canto as they try to move away after attacking.
• Like any debuffs, seal skills are ineffective on bosses with the Commander skill. In pre-time skip, the only bosses with that skill are Death Knight, Flame Emperor, and Edelgard/Rhea, and it doesn't become much more common as the game goes on compared to General.
• The acquisition of most of these is locked to specific units' budding talents: Seal Strength is the budding talent (reason) of Ignatz. Seal Magic is the budding talent (reason) of Flayn. Seal Speed is the budding talent (armor) of both Hilda and Ferdinand. Seal Movement is the budding talent (horses) of Dimitri.
  • Seal Def and Res are the class masteries of Wyvern Rider and Dark Knight, respectively, allowing any unit to equip them.
• Ranged attacks and gambits are a safe way to apply debuffs without retaliation. But only the targeted unit of a gambit will receive the debuff.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Glennstavos

[Flere210]

I suppose there is some cheesy seal def use to clear maps in a turn, but other than that, this game does not have many situations when they are usefull, and when they are, the enemy likely has commander.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Huh, I'm surprised these were considered "underachieving". Anyway, I've found Seal Defense to be pretty useful in setting up kills on Maddening, especially against Monsters. I love having Ashe combine it with Waning Shot, to diminish two stats in one turn. Seal Speed I've enjoyed too, to a lesser degree. Seal Strength and Magic sound like they could be situationally useful. Seal Res sounds like too much work to be worthwhile outside of NG+.Seal movement is just bad - sorry, Dimitri.

Kinda funny that Dex/Luck/Charm can't get sealed - I could see "Seal Charm" as useful to set up an enemy to get obliterated by a gambit.

If it were just Seal Movement and/or Resistance, I'd turn them down. But I've gotten enough use out of Seals Defense and Speed to comfortably say yes to Seal Skills.

I forget, have we talked about the Subdue combat art yet? If not, I'd like to nominate it.

[Jotari]

Very middle of the road skills. Yes, but by endgame I'd be looking to replace them. One of my biggest issues is precisely that they are so budding talent related. If I could stack multiple seal skills on one unit and make them a dedicated debuffer I'd probably see more use of them. Right now it's toss a few points on the budding talent rank and use them until something better comes along. Seal Defense and Seal Speed are the best of them. Seal Magic is probably the worst.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Jotari

[Zapp Branniglenn]

9 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I forget, have we talked about the Subdue combat art yet? If not, I'd like to nominate it.

I'm considering the Lord Class instead, due to only three units in the game having access to it, and by extension the combat art. The Art itself can be used outside of the Lord class but there's so much good stuff on the level 10 tier that the cost of acquiring it may seem too high to ignore. And I think the question of whether the class itself is useful to those three characters is the more interesting one due to its skill proficiency bonuses and all the house leaders having interesting sword combat arts to work toward when they're not generally considered sword wielders.

[SnowFire]

Seal Speed is genuinely useful, especially considering how often you need to chip an enemy first in Maddening to get a kill on them.  Give Ferdinand / Hilda a Bow & Curved Shot, they can plink a full health normal enemy and set them up to be KO'd with the next action.  It's even more notable with monsters with lots of life bars: they'll stay debuffed and your whole team can whale on 'em.  It's not uncommon for your slower team members to be unable to double a monster (e.g. Ferdie's buddy Hubert with heavy magic) and Seal Speed sets this up.  I know that people sometimes hype up creating a dedicated Rally user, but Seal is far less "expensive" to a build: these characters can both support chip with a debuff and still set up for killing power in their other 4 skills and 2 combat arts.  It's equivalent to a Rally if you only needed 1 more action to kill the enemy, but it's much better than a rally if you needed multiple actions afterward to kill that enemy.  Plus Seal Speed is -6 Speed, which is better than Rally Speed's +4 Speed.

Seal Magic isn't great, but Flayn doesn't have tons of other competition for her skill slots due to missing out on HP+5 / Mag+2 and you will get this incidentally, so sure, mock mages even more.  Seal Strength - eh, inoffensive, but Ignatz has better uses for his skill slots.  Seal Def, probably not, although I can see it maybe for Cyril, the Other Wyvern Archer who actually goes through Wyvern Rider, unlike a certain Duke?  Maybe Ashe as well if you're doing Wyvern Ashe.  Seal Mov, no.  Seal Res is far too late to care, if you even get it at all.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

18 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

I'm considering the Lord Class instead, due to only three units in the game having access to it, and by extension the combat art. The Art itself can be used outside of the Lord class but there's so much good stuff on the level 10 tier that the cost of acquiring it may seem too high to ignore. And I think the question of whether the class itself is useful to those three characters is the more interesting one due to its skill proficiency bonuses and all the house leaders having interesting sword combat arts to work toward when they're not generally considered sword wielders.

Ah, fair point! I think the class as a whole would definitely be a good discussion. I've used the class in every playthrough, but even I'm not sure whether I can justify it, haha.

[Dark Holy Elf]

19 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

The game says the debuff applies for "1 turn" after combat. This is false. It only applies for one phase of a turn.

• These skills have no application on enemy phase, besides seal movement cutting the remaining movement of an enemy with canto as they try to move away after attacking.

 

I'm nearly certain this is false. They absolutely work on the enemy phase; Banshee locks low-move enemies in place similarly to Rattle just fine for instance, and I'm nearly certain the other debuffs are the same. In general, debuffs wear off at the start of the phase of the side which applied them; so for your skills, that means at the start of the player phase. This does mean that applying a debuff on the enemy phase is pretty useless, because they'll wear off before you can take advantage, so don't put Seal skills on your enemy phase dodgetank and expect them to be useful.

Anyway the Seal skills are decent enough as filler, especially for juicing your monster-killing, but I rarely find they survive long-term, as your units get better and better at just killing the things they target. As mentioned, Speed is almost surely the most useful, since it can very easily turn "doesn't double" into "does double" and that's huge.

I believe Dragonskin prevents Seal effects but I'm not sure, since the game is vague on what it affects. If you can Seal the bosses with that it'd improve my opinion of them too, because although there's only 1-2 of them per route they are major opponents against whom any help is appreciated. The non-draconic major bosses all have Commander, of course.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, SnowFire said:

I know that people sometimes hype up creating a dedicated Rally user, but Seal is far less "expensive" to a build: these characters can both support chip with a debuff and still set up for killing power in their other 4 skills and 2 combat arts.  It's equivalent to a Rally if you only needed 1 more action to kill the enemy, but it's much better than a rally if you needed multiple actions afterward to kill that enemy.  Plus Seal Speed is -6 Speed, which is better than Rally Speed's +4 Speed.

That's not an entirely fair comparison. Purely on player phase, yes, Seal skills are generally stronger than Rallies. But Rallies are much better for enemy-phase "juggernauting" - you can rally just one ally, and that Rally comes into play against, say, 4 enemies. Plus, your rallybot only needs to be in proximity to your other unit - which is often easier than being in range to attack the enemy.

26 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm nearly certain this is false. They absolutely work on the enemy phase; Banshee locks low-move enemies in place similarly to Rattle just fine for instance, and I'm nearly certain the other debuffs are the same. In general, debuffs wear off at the start of the phase of the side which applied them; so for your skills, that means at the start of the player phase. This does mean that applying a debuff on the enemy phase is pretty useless, because they'll wear off before you can take advantage, so don't put Seal skills on your enemy phase dodgetank and expect them to be useful.

Building off of this, I have discovered instances where Seal skills last longer than a full turn. I think it's an error, but the support gambit "Battlefield Cafe" (from one of the DLC Nuvelle Battalions) provides a Rally Strength that lasts indefinitely (text says it's supposed to be limited to 1 turn). However, if that same unit gets hit by Seal Strength, that seal will also persist indefinitely, leaving them stuck at -2 strength net. Not sure if there's any way to exploit this against enemies, unfortunately. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

47 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm nearly certain this is false. They absolutely work on the enemy phase; Banshee locks low-move enemies in place similarly to Rattle just fine for instance, and I'm nearly certain the other debuffs are the same. In general, debuffs wear off at the start of the phase of the side which applied them; so for your skills, that means at the start of the player phase. This does mean that applying a debuff on the enemy phase is pretty useless, because they'll wear off before you can take advantage, so don't put Seal skills on your enemy phase dodgetank and expect them to be useful.

Nothing here contradicts what I have said in calling them useless on enemy phase. All you did was swap my Seal Movement example with Banshee which is not part of this round. Yes the debuff of other stats is techically applied, but no enemy in the game has access to a galeforce or dance command. Except Edelgard in VW/SS chapter 20/19, but she's immune to debuffs anyway.

 

[eclipse]

Seal Speed has its uses, as does Seal Def.  Seal Mov is only if you're baiting a bunch of canto units, which is something that Dimitri sort-of does well anyway.  Seal Str/Mag can work if you've nothing better to do, and lolSealRes.  While they'll most likely be bumped off, I can't ignore their usefulness early-on!

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

Nothing here contradicts what I have said in calling them useless on enemy phase. All you did was swap my Seal Movement example with Banshee which is not part of this round. Yes the debuff of other stats is techically applied, but no enemy in the game has access to a galeforce or dance command. Except Edelgard in VW/SS chapter 20/19, but she's immune to debuffs anyway.

You said it "applied to only one phase". That is not true. If debuffs are used on the player phase, then they are active for both the remnant of that player phase, and the following enemy phase.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

25 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You said it "applied to only one phase". That is not true. If debuffs are used on the player phase, then they are active for both the remnant of that player phase, and the following enemy phase.

Ah, now that IS a correction to my notes. You should have just lead with that. 

[Sid Starkiller]

Just occurred to me: since the final DLC comes out Thursday, and I'm certain Yuri will be able to become a Lord, it might be worth putting that poll off for a couple of weeks.

[Dandy Druid]

In general, I like the Seal Skills. Are all of the equally useful? Nope. Seal Defense and Seal Speed are on a completely different level than Seal Res, but they all have their uses and can be helpful. Situationally useful for Seal Mov.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

In a weird way, seal skills may be the inspiration for this thread. I remember when the game was a few weeks old and it was becoming common knowledge how bad the seal skills were compared to previous games. How they don't work on enemy phase and how you have to hit your target to apply them rather than just be in combat against them. But having tried them out against monsters, I found them very helpful since those are enemies that can't be one-shotted by design. If Ferdinand or Hilda is on the team, getting them seal speed is an essential goal before the Sothis paralogue since the monsters there are wolves and birds which are the fastest monster types. And I'll pull the skill out again for Chapter 9 and the Marianne paralogue which chiefly features monsters as enemies. These are maps where debuffs can really shine, and finding a use for these supposedly awful abilities makes the game balance seem sort of versatile and strategic. 

Anyway I'm going to do the opposite and dunk on something just trying to get through life unnoticed. Round 17 is the Longbow. Here is the strawpoll link, and here are some notes

• The Longbow is a C rank bow with 9 MT, 70 Hit, 13 WT, and 20 durability. The effective range is also one space further than any other bow for basic attacks (with the exception of the Failnaught and a forged magic bow), allowing you to fire that extra space at no -20 hit penalty. When forged, the MT increases by 2.
• The longbow cannot fire one space further on any combat art. Combat art range is tied to the Art itself, only increasing through the +1/+2 bow range class skills of archer classes
  • Most bow combat arts worth a damn have the longbow's range.
• You get a Longbow for free from Sylvain's paralogue. Otherwise it must be forged from a steel bow using 6 wootz steel, a very precious resource since it is also used for brave weapons and only drops from monsters.
• The benefits that a longbow has over other bows and combat arts are few
  • you can potentially double at curved shot range with the longbow, but with that amount of speed you could also quad with the brave bow, as they have the same weight
    • also, if your archers are snipers, you can double with any bow thanks to hunter's volley.
  • you can provide linked attack/gambit boost bonuses from a further space away while the longbow is equipped. Though hopefully you're not still in enemy range, since that is a heavy weapon to be carrying for enemy phase.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I've found the extra space of linked attack range being useful in a lot of cases, especially for gambiting. Even if I never attack with the Longbow, I can use an ally with 2-range attacking to trade-equip it, then get an attack or gambit in with the linked attack boost. Ironically, it's probably better on non-bow specialist classes; I've found boosting linked attack range from 2->3 coming more in handy than 3->4 (Archer, Sniper) or 4-5 (Bow Knight).

As for attacking with it, I'll agree that Curved Shot on a high-Mt bow is usually better. And Hunter's Volley is always better. But the first can't double and costs an Arts Slot, while the latter is costly and exclusive to Snipers. Longbow provides the only opportunity (short of Failnaught, an AM/VW-exclusive hyper-longbow) for non-Claude Fliers (best movement type) to double with physical damage at 3 range. I won't pretend that Hit rate is not an issue, but this can be mended somewhat by Archer mastery and hit-boosting batallions.

In a game with 2-3 range Combat Arts and steep range-based hit penalties to bow users, Longbows aren't as good as they used to be. Nevertheless, I still find enough utility for them, whether getting extra linked attack range, or doubling at 3-range on non-bow classes, to keep on using them. It's a yes to the Longbow.

It's not a weapon, but if we're talking equippables, might I nominate the Talisman Shield?

[Sid Starkiller]

No to Longbow. In most games I would say yes, but 3H has enough ways to increase your attack range that it's really not necessary.

EDIT: Not to mention that Wootz Steel is better spent on brave weapons.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Sid Starkiller

[Jotari]

Well I always carry it with me because the extra range is a nice option to have, but it's all around poor stats means I can't say I've ever used it much.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yes to the longbow. It allows you to double at range 3, and it increases your linked attack range. Both of those things are good.

Yes, Hunter's Volley also lets you double at increased range, but only once you've both mastered Sniper and then stay in the class, which leaves a huge amount of game where it's not applicable, while the Longbow is applicable to anyone with C bows once you've reached Sylvain's paralogue (which is one of the first to unlock). And even then, it doesn't mimic the linked attack range boost (for all that it does mean you should probably give the Longbow to anyone but your Sniper(s)).

[eclipse]

Ping an enemy from three spaces away without shanking weapon durability?  YES PLEASE!

[Flere210]

I never used it and seems unnecessary, but so many positive opinions are changing my heart.

[iavasechui]

It’s pretty good if your using a bow on a class that doesn’t get +range I generally keep one on Claude at all times when he isn’t using his relic and one on my paladin archers who can’t be bow knights yet

[whase]

On my first playthrough on normal I used it a lot, but on hard and above I only use it very sparingly. That said I do use it, for a lot of the reasons already mentioned.