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Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar

Would you use this weird thing?  

105 members have voted

  1. 1. Round 1: Holy Knight?

    • Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where I make a Holy Knight.
      71
    • No, I can't see an application or justification for Holy Knight over other classes
      34
  2. 2. Round 2: Battalion Renewal?

    • Yeah, I think I could see myself using this.
      9
    • No, I wouldn't waste an ability slot on this source of healing.
      70


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2 hours ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

That's a pretty poor substitute for the likes of Fierce Iron Fist or Hunter's Volley, which will be much more accurate and have guaranteed damage multipliers.

Not to mention Brave Weapons, which also have guaranteed multipliers, and between them conveniently cover all the monster weaknesses. For someone like Petra who can reasonably quad (except maybe the fliers, but they're easily dealt with by various archer options), Wild Abandon doesn't offer much; at least Helm Splitter grants reasonably reliable finisher damage above Smash, and that's assuming she doesn't snag Curved Shot.

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Round 12 is Venin Weapons, first suggested by @Elephantus Here is the strawpoll link. And here are some notes:

  • Venin weapon stats, both forged and unforged, are typically identical to iron weapons outside of having much less durability and maybe one more point of weight in some cases.
    • this is noteworthy because venin weapons in previous games typically had much lower stats than generic weapons.
  • The poison status reduces a target's HP by ~10% at the start of each turn. Poison damage cannot kill, and always occurs before health restoring effects like Renewal or heal tiles that also occur at the start of a turn.
  • The only guaranteed drops of the weapons themselves are a Venin Axe and Venin lance in the DLC Anna paralogue. 
  • Forging a venin weapon from an iron one costs 2000G and 2 Venomstones. Forging it further costs 3000G and 4 Venomstones
    • venomstones are a rare drop from armor breaking the poison spewing demonic beasts common of many story and paralogue chapters. They also allegedly drop from the Giant Crawler monsters who spawn in desert auxiliary maps. Though personally I've only seen those monsters drop agarthium.
    • I've also heard venomstones are one of the items you can obtain by feeding animals around the monastery, a mechanic also exclusive to the DLC.
  • I have checked whether inflicting poison is based on random chance (like with the poison spewing demonic beasts, or the Poison skill on Maddening mode Assassins), but the activation rate seems to be 100% until you're striking an enemy with the General skill which makes them immune to all status effects and debuffs.
    • You will even inflict poison when your attack deals 0 damage or you are striking a monster's barrier, but the point is the attack must hit.
  • Unlike the player, the enemy isn't equipped to deal with poison unless there's an antitoxin sitting in their inventory.

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Venin Weapons are as useful as the Subdue Combat Art. It is useful to train units that you know will be forced to deploy later at least to par levels (recommended level or 1+2*(Chapter-1) whichever is higher).

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When I think of the Poison condition, I'm transported back to Elibe, to my randomized playthrough of Roy's Emblem. In which, Steel Lances had the poison effect, and Javelins had the Eclipse effect. The FE6 Eclipse effect, that brought the target down to 1 HP. I'll leave things to the imagination, but Chapter 21... well, it was quite a ride.

I bring this up because my randomizer unwittingly created a situation in which the poison condition was more relevant than main-series games have ever made it. Now, in its non-lethal form, it's at most a minor nuisance. As a tool in the player's hands, it does next to nothing, since you'll want to kill any given enemy in a single turn. And the ones you don't beat in a single turn (monsters, usually), knocking off 10% of one HP bar, at the start of their turn, is such little gain.

It's an easy no on Venin Weapons.

How would I make them better? First, get rid of the poison condition, throw it in the garbage. Venin weapons now inflict Poison Strike, for an immediate 20% on the enemy after the base damage done (less on monsters though). This way, they could conceivably have a use in setting up a kill for an ally. Also cut their forging costs drastically (say, down to 500 G), and make Venomstones more common.

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I found a couple of stones and told myself "why not"? They are iron weapons that do an extra thing. If you stumpled upon a couple of stones there is no reason not to have a venin weapon in place for an iron one, even if the benefit is small. To purposefully seek the venomstones is a no.

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2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I bring this up because my randomizer unwittingly created a situation in which the poison condition was more relevant than main-series games have ever made it. Now, in its non-lethal form, it's at most a minor nuisance. As a tool in the player's hands, it does next to nothing, since you'll want to kill any given enemy in a single turn. And the ones you don't beat in a single turn (monsters, usually), knocking off 10% of one HP bar, at the start of their turn, is such little gain.

It's an easy no on Venin Weapons.

How would I make them better? First, get rid of the poison condition, throw it in the garbage. Venin weapons now inflict Poison Strike, for an immediate 20% on the enemy after the base damage done (less on monsters though). This way, they could conceivably have a use in setting up a kill for an ally. Also cut their forging costs drastically (say, down to 500 G), and make Venomstones more common.

Well put, this is pretty much my thoughts.

If an enemy is worth engaging it's worth killing that turn, or preventing it from taking useful action (e.g. rattle / encloser / silence). Poison doesn't help with either, so is worthless.

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One thing I have found is that if there's an enemy formation that's tough to approach safely (because it has many units on its edge with overlapping ranges, or because you're also dealing with turrets or a constant stream of reinforcements coming from their direction) it can help to throw an Impregnable-Wall-upped bait unit at them to aggro them and break them up.  In that case, why not use a Venin weapon?  All your attacks deal 1 damage anyway, so why not use a weapon that has a bonus effect?  The answer to "why not" is that if you placed your bait unit close to the rest of your army, you'll ideally be swarming the lured-in enemies on your next Player Phase and they won't live long enough for the poison to take effect.

However, in some cases, the enemies won't be able to reach the rest of your army right away.  Maybe (1) there's a wall or gap in the way that only fliers can pass over, or (2) maybe you deliberately left everyone but your bait unit far away from the group you're baiting.  Or maybe (3) the group is just SO overwhelmingly huge and in-your-face that all you can do is find a chokepoint and hold onto it with I-Wall for several turns straight as you slowly pick off the enemies.  In these cases, the poison will have time to do its thing--and getting in a "free" 10%-20% damage now can be surprisingly helpful for completing one-round kills later on.  I encountered situations 2, 3, and 1 respectively on chapters 13, 14, and 15 of VW, and in each case the poison did make a few kills easier to snag.  (In Chapter 13, this is how I approached the group just to the left of Pallardo after I survived the initial rush.  In Chapter 14, I heavily relied on I-Wall to hold off the initial rush of enemies on the left.  In Chapter 15, I sent some units over the lava to engage enemies early, but the archers made it dangerous to do so without I-Wall.)

I think Venin weapons are pretty useless on most maps, but there are a handful of cases where they can be a little helpful--and it doesn't hurt to have one in your convoy to bring out for just those cases.

 

WORD OF WARNING:  Do not upgrade your Venin weapons to their "+" versions.  Due to a bug, their "+" versions never inflict poison, making them just worse, delicate iron weapons.  Maybe this'll get fixed in DLC 4, we'll see.

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2 hours ago, ajmiam said:

One thing I have found is that if there's an enemy formation that's tough to approach safely (because it has many units on its edge with overlapping ranges, or because you're also dealing with turrets or a constant stream of reinforcements coming from their direction) it can help to throw an Impregnable-Wall-upped bait unit at them to aggro them and break them up.  In that case, why not use a Venin weapon?  All your attacks deal 1 damage anyway, so why not use a weapon that has a bonus effect?  The answer to "why not" is that if you placed your bait unit close to the rest of your army, you'll ideally be swarming the lured-in enemies on your next Player Phase and they won't live long enough for the poison to take effect.

However, in some cases, the enemies won't be able to reach the rest of your army right away.  Maybe (1) there's a wall or gap in the way that only fliers can pass over, or (2) maybe you deliberately left everyone but your bait unit far away from the group you're baiting.  Or maybe (3) the group is just SO overwhelmingly huge and in-your-face that all you can do is find a chokepoint and hold onto it with I-Wall for several turns straight as you slowly pick off the enemies.  In these cases, the poison will have time to do its thing--and getting in a "free" 10%-20% damage now can be surprisingly helpful for completing one-round kills later on.  I encountered situations 2, 3, and 1 respectively on chapters 13, 14, and 15 of VW, and in each case the poison did make a few kills easier to snag.  (In Chapter 13, this is how I approached the group just to the left of Pallardo after I survived the initial rush.  In Chapter 14, I heavily relied on I-Wall to hold off the initial rush of enemies on the left.  In Chapter 15, I sent some units over the lava to engage enemies early, but the archers made it dangerous to do so without I-Wall.)

I think Venin weapons are pretty useless on most maps, but there are a handful of cases where they can be a little helpful--and it doesn't hurt to have one in your convoy to bring out for just those cases.

 

WORD OF WARNING:  Do not upgrade your Venin weapons to their "+" versions.  Due to a bug, their "+" versions never inflict poison, making them just worse, delicate iron weapons.  Maybe this'll get fixed in DLC 4, we'll see.

Interesting perspective. This kind of stuff is why I love this topic actually. I brought up Venin weapons because for me it was a simple "no, can't see any situation where I'd want to poison my enemy", but your reasoning is actually very sound and a cool idea.

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Impregnable Wall synergy is pretty creative. Combined with Retribution to counterattack monsters and archers, you get a lot of rounds of combat at no risk, and also lure a bunch of enemies to one point. I'll have to try that out. Of course since poison procs at the start of enemy phase, their health won't decrease in time for your sweep next turn. But if the enemy force is really that strong, you can lock down some with gambits to take out later. Unfortunately, baiting a monster to attack always prompts them to do their gambit and restore armor pieces, so you need to go for the armor break if you want them to chill out for a turn.

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I'd say no, if only because that're a pain in the ass to make owing to Venomstones being rare.

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9 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:

I think the whole picture here is not to actively seek venomstones. However, once you come across one, eh, why not?

Venin weapons are quite expensive to make.

Have to say though, I don't have any experience with them either. I did get the materials a bunch of times, but never used them.

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13 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:

I think the whole picture here is not to actively seek venomstones. However, once you come across one, eh, why not?

 

On 1/29/2020 at 11:16 PM, Flere210 said:

I found a couple of stones and told myself "why not"? They are iron weapons that do an extra thing. If you stumpled upon a couple of stones there is no reason not to have a venin weapon in place for an iron one, even if the benefit is small. To purposefully seek the venomstones is a no.

Basically I would echo what @Cysx said, plus, consider this: when you run out of uses on the Venin weapon, what then? Unless I'm mistaken, the only way to repair it is with more Venomstones. If you don't find those, it's a perpetually broken weapon. At least if you keep it an Iron Weapon (or go Iron+, or Steel, or Killer), you can repair it with readily-available ore (Smithing Stones or Black-Sand Steel).

The same argument can theoretically be posed against forging that requires Arcane Crystals or Wootz Steel. But in those cases, the resultant weapon is actually... well, good and useful.

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Then you keep the broken weapon and then switch to an iron weapon because the game hand dozen of them to you and they are very cheap. 

What other use do you have for the vemomstones you find around? Even if you sell them this won't make much of a difference compared to using them. 

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Just now, Flere210 said:

Then you keep the broken weapon and then switch to an iron weapon because the game hand dozen of them to you and they are very cheap. 

What other use do you have for the vemomstones you find around? Even if you sell them this won't make much of a difference compared to using them. 

The fact that there aren't any other good uses for Venomstones doesn't make forging Venin Weapons (which, as Cysx stated, are also weirdly expensive) a good use in its own right. Venomstones are just bad. An Iron Sword is better forged into literally anything else. The game gives you a ton of money, so you can do whatever you want. But that doesn't make them a "good" use of resources. If you find it fun, though, I won't tell you not to do it.

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54 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

 

Basically I would echo what @Cysx said, plus, consider this: when you run out of uses on the Venin weapon, what then? Unless I'm mistaken, the only way to repair it is with more Venomstones. If you don't find those, it's a perpetually broken weapon. At least if you keep it an Iron Weapon (or go Iron+, or Steel, or Killer), you can repair it with readily-available ore (Smithing Stones or Black-Sand Steel).

The same argument can theoretically be posed against forging that requires Arcane Crystals or Wootz Steel. But in those cases, the resultant weapon is actually... well, good and useful.

Even using it until it breaks the first time is still some use though.

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15 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:

I think the whole picture here is not to actively seek venomstones. However, once you come across one, eh, why not?

The problem is, you'd pretty much have to go out of your way to get them because only two enemy types drop them, and none of them show up much outside of auxiliary battles (Crawlers, which only show up in the desert, where you don't go outside of Claude's paralogue, and Wild Demonic Beasts).

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See this is tricky when the acquisition of venin weapons and their stones outside of dlc is up to RNG. The option to use venin weapons isn't squarely in the player's hands as a result. But the player can still make mostly fruitless attempts to collect some. While thinking of going through all that effort - just to fish for the right auxilliary battle, makes acquisition of the item seem far too costly even if it's a non factor to other players who get venomstones to fall in their lap through sheer luck. I'll keep in mind these difficulties when moving forward to future rounds.

Round 13 is the Absorption gambit. I have never seen anybody mention this one, and I only knew about it when an enemy used this on me so I think it's worth talking about. Here is the strawpoll link, and here are some notes:

  • Absorption is available from just two battalions, Alliance Brawler Duelists, and Empire Raiders. As such it is not available in the Blue Lions route outside of carryover in NG+.
    • Empire Raiders is available in CF/SS Battalion Guild in post time skip. It requires B authority. At maximum level, it provides 7 phys atk, 10 avoid, 4 prot, and 7 charm
    • Alliance Brawler Duelists is a battalion that is only available in Golden Deer's Battalion Guild but I have no idea when it unlocks. It requires C authority. At maximum level, it provides 4 phys atk, -2 mag atk, 10 avoid, 3 prot, and 5 charm
  • The gambit itself has 4 MT, and 30 Hit, making it the least accurate offensive gambit in the game. In order to get more Accuracy on gambits, the unit can have 6 more charm than the target for +30, three A support linked attack bonuses for +60. An A support adjutant for +20, an accuracy ring for +10, or Hit +20.
  • The range of the gambit is just 1, but the radius is a 3x3 diamond around the target. Put another way, it has the same radius as Dimitri's unique battalion. Or is a 1 range version of Resonant Lightning and Ashes and Dust. While it's rare for you to get one of your units surrounded on all four sides, the full coverage is 12 tiles.
  • The Healing effect is 50% damage dealt to the initial target, then 50% of the splash damage dealt to all other targets caught in the radius. I presume like other healing attacks, you can only heal 50% of remaining HP (for instance, if an enemy receives 30 damage from this attack, but only has 10 left to lose, the player only gains 5 HP from them, and not 15).
  • There are few attacks in this game that allow a unit to both attack and be healed in just one action, freeing up a turn for the healer.
Edited by Glennstavos

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On 1/30/2020 at 12:16 AM, Elephantus said:

Interesting perspective. This kind of stuff is why I love this topic actually. I brought up Venin weapons because for me it was a simple "no, can't see any situation where I'd want to poison my enemy", but your reasoning is actually very sound and a cool idea.

I second this sentiment. I still don't really see myself doing it but reading stuff like this is cool.

For Absorption: Probably not. First of all, the batallions that provide it aren't very impressive at the point of the game you respectively get them (not terrible, but you'll have better), so you'd be using them for the gambit itself. Hit is very important for gambits; you're using them primarily for rattle or barrier-breaking and a miss means that all gets wasted. I don't think self-healing off your gambit is worth the steps down otherwise.

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If it were on a good battalion such as Leicester Mercs or Duscar Heavy Soldiers, I think Absorption see much more use. As is, there's not much of a demand for battalion that gives decent amounts of Attack and Avoid, as they're a plenty of options that do that better. 

I don't think it's Hit Issues are that much of a problem though. Between the Accuracy Ring, Hit +20, Adjutants, and Long range Link Attacks, I never found Gambits missing to ever be a prevalent issue, even ones with low base Accuracy.

Also A Rank Link Attacks increase Gambit Hit Rates by +20 Hit, not +10 Hit.

Edited by LoneRecon400

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I'd say no. Absorption is too inaccurate gambit wise, which is unacceptable when I'm primarily trying to use them for rattle or barrier breaking as a miss means that doesn't happen, and the battalions with it are outclassed by the time they're relevant.

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41 minutes ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Also A Rank Link Attacks increase Gambit Hit Rates by +20 Hit, not +10 Hit.

Oops, forgot it's a different formula.

Edit: Sounds like you guys are being a biiiiiit too caught up on the hit rate. I definitely wanted to draw attention to it, since the majority of gambits we use are 50 hit, and a lot of my divine pulses on maddening resulted almost immediately or within a turn or two of missing an 85 accuracy gambit, so I won't say the extra points of hit don't matter. But as a post-time skip gambit, you've got 10 divine pulses and the majority of A supports unlocked already. And as for breaking monster barriers, y'know, you're talking about enemies with 0 charm and are bulky enough that you'll be sending more than one guy at them anyway. The difference between a 60 hit Absorption and a 100Hit absorption is just sending that unit as your third attacker instead of your first attacker.

Edited by Glennstavos

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