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Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar

Would you use this weird thing?  

100 members have voted

  1. 1. Round 1: Holy Knight?

    • Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where I make a Holy Knight.
      68
    • No, I can't see an application or justification for Holy Knight over other classes
      32
  2. 2. Round 2: Battalion Renewal?

    • Yeah, I think I could see myself using this.
      8
    • No, I wouldn't waste an ability slot on this source of healing.
      66


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4 hours ago, Sid Starkiller said:

Yes, if and only if I'm making a build revolving around skills that trigger at low health. And since I'd rather not take damage at all, I'm not likely to do so.

So I guess my answer is "Well yes, but actually no."

Haha. This makes no sense, but I understand and agree completely.

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No. Possibly the least useful class in the game, I tend to forget it even exists.

I have a low opinion of Advanced/Master infantry classes to start with, and swords as well, but Hero takes it to another level because if for some reason I wanted to use a sword infantry class, I'd be using Assassin, which is just as easy to certify for and has better move / terrain ignorance / stats.

I guess you can argue "innate Vantage" for some builds, but it seems like it'd be easier to pick up Vantage in Merc and then go somewhere else. Using Hero frees up a skill slot, but we all agree Move+1 is a good use of a skill slot, and you can basically think of Assassin as a Hero with innate Move+1 (and better besides) so... so much for that.

To add insult to injury the one character most likely to want to do something with swords (Catherine, who joins with an A) can't use go Hero because apparently FE3H's director hates Echidna, or something.

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It's a class, so yes. With how many times I will be replaying this game, a hero-only playthrough sounds like fun.

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The question to ask is, what kind of skills are useful on a Wrath/Vantage build? I would say the following:

Wrath / Battalion Wrath

Vantage / Battalion Vantage

Weapon Prowess Lv. X

Weaponfaire

Weapon Breaker / Hit +20

Weapon Crit +10 / Crit +20

Defiant Str / Crit / Hit / Avo

Evasive Stance (+)

Weaon Avoid +20

Obviously, that's more than can be in the "Equippables" list. The avoid boosters (aside from Axebreaker) are probably impractical for most units going Hero to get (Wrath is a stretch in its own right, on units who don't get Battalion Wrath. The good news is, Swordmaster and Hero each offer Swordfaire, plus Sword Crit +10 and Vantage, respectively. However, whereas Swordmaster mastery gives the super-costly and exclusive Astra skill, Hero offers Defiant Strength. It's not a great skill overall, but IMO it definitely has a place on Wrath/Vantage builds; say, combined with the Wo Dao or Cursed Ashiya Sword.

So while I think Hero is inferior to Assassin overall (less movement always sucks), I see it as having a niche for crafting Wrath/Vantage builds. Even if you don't want to use Hero long-term, you can combine Defiant Strength with equippable Wrath and Vantage on a class like War Master (innate Crit +20 baybee). It's a somewhat reluctant yes to Hero.

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Yes.  Solely because it looks way cooler than both swordmaster and assassin.   Fashion over function anyday.

In all seriousness it's my go to class for Felix or Byleth if I'm not going for any magic

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With the ability to wield axes, I can Smash my way through some pesky things.  Not the best class, but if I happen to have the ranks for it, why not?

Edited by eclipse

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If Hero actually had Axefaire that would help it notably to give it a niche over Swordmaster/Assassin. As is they all use axes equally well, Hero's only advantage is it boosts axe exp slightly faster.

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maybe if hero was buffed with something like a passive sol or something yeah

or made avalible to females too

or had something that really makes me not use swordmaster/assassin instead

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What Sid / Jotari said, "Yes but actually no."  I can imagine a case, but it's so ludicrously unlikely that the answer is still no.

Hero has two good things going for it: it's easy to qualify for, and innate Vantage.  So if there's some sort of unfocused build / change of plans and the options are "stay an Intermediate class" or "go to Hero", then sure, Hero for "grabbed a little bit of everything" Byleth or Deathblow Felix maybe.  This isn't worth much hype since Assassin is also easy to qualify for and having a little bit of bow on physical characters is good, and for Byleth specifically, the character most likely to be doing an unfocused build if you are trying to recruit random characters, he'll have Hero for about 2 minutes before getting Enlightened One, which is better anyway.  This benefit only really matters on first playthroughs / speedruns / LTCs, really.

For Vantage, sure, you can do a Vantage build, but why not just grab it from Merc if you're already building B swords, then go to a better class?  Normally the argument might be "getting Deathblow from Brigand for the Axes" but if you're doing an enemy phase build, you probably don't have room for Deathblow anyway.

Taken together, you end up with that Silver Snow LTC somebody posted on YouTube that decided to use Hero Seteth & a unit with a Retribution battalion for some maps: Seteth doesn't go through Intermediate classes (so has an excuse not to learn "real" Vantage) and is a LTC so can't grind it up in an Auxiliary battle.  This is a pretty crazy confluence of events to require Hero to have a use, though.  Additionally, it's worth pointing out that Vantage enemy phase strats are far from bulletproof, and a good way to chew up Divine Pulse charges if you aren't careful / willing to gamble on luck.  Gambits, high HP enemies or monsters, missing a crit, and so on can all ruin your day.  If Vantage was really That Good I might have some sympathy, but it's pretty situational.

As one final note, it's worth pointing out that Defiant Str does not count as a good thing.  There simply isn't room for such a situational skill with the 5 skill max, take vanilla Str +2 every day over it.  Defiant Avo or Defiant Crit, maybe toss those on if you somehow have gotten them and making a dopey Vantage build, but Defiant Str?  Never making the cut.  (Maybe if you had 7 skill slots, or if Prowess skills didn't have to be equipped, or if Defiant triggered at <50% HP.)

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Round 19 is Defensive Tactics. Here is the strawpoll link. And here are some notes:

  • Defensive Tactics is acquired by every character in the game at B rank authority.
  • Defensive Tactics reduces damage dealt to battalion endurance by half. 
    • For those unaware, the amount of damage dealt to endurance is approximately half of whatever you're taking in HP. However, there is a cap that equates to one third of the max endurance, meaning it is impossible to lose your battalion from one really bad round of combat.
  • Since battalion endurance on higher rank battalions progressively increases, the odds of your battalion withdrawing mid battle isn't something that really happens more often as you progress in the game, even though the damage you receive certainly gets higher. 
    • The only low rank battalions that typically see use all the way into late game are Jeralt's Mercenaries, which has a generous amount of endurance anyway, and that early game stride battalion. 
  • There is no way to restore battalion endurance in the middle of the map. Except for those yellow swirlies you see when playing with online features. One of the two random effects is restoring battalion endurance.
  • Defensive Tactics may pair well with Batallion Wrath/Vantage/Desperation/Renewal. If the player intentionally avoids replenishing battalions for a unit, that unit can benefit from those skills from turn 1, and Defensive Tactics may increase the amount of hits they can take before the battalion withdraws completely.
  • I've seen the argument for Lorenz, especially, to use this ability. Because Lorenz' bulk depends more on a high HP growth than on his defense and resistance stats, and he gets +2 to damage so long as his battalion stays alive. Gilbert similarly takes 2 less damage so long as his battalion stays alive.

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That's only if I have room. . .which is almost always "no".  Even for the Battalion Cheese skills.

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Never found a point using it. Usually all my battalions on my units are alive with yellow or red health by the end of a map. After I can just replenish it. I could see it useful early game where battalions are so weak, but it requires B in authority.

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Depends on the unit, battalion and stage of the game. I would consider using it on someone like Lorenz, since magic battalions don't have a lot of endurance, Lorenz can actually take hits, so he might be taking some damage that lets it be useful, Mages have no competition for ability slots for ages. I might also equip it on someone who takes a lot of EP like Dedue or Dimitri in the mid game when their battalions only have 60 endurance.

So yeah sometimes.

 

For some previous rounds.

Hero: Yes if LTC/Speedrun, otherwise no.

Longbow: Never used it, and since it's so heavy i would rather just carry a higher mt bow and use curved shot since i doubt i will not double with it.

 

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Normally the answer is no, but it's legitimately a good skill for concrete tanks like Dedue if they're actually going to be taking a lot of punishment. Since concrete tanks take a lot of damage (magic is brutal, and even higher-atk physicals like axes often manage 2 hits of 15-20), it's easy for their battalion to drain, and if it's gone their utility as a tank is greatly compromised since chances are they're using Duscur Soldiers or some other high-defence battatalion.

So... while rarely, I'll answer Yes.

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Battalions fleeing is such a rare occurrence in my experience that I'm not worried about it. And there's always at least 5 skills I would rather have instead.

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It's not my priority, but I could definitely see myself using it with a Battalion Wrath Build some day. Just seems to make sense. You have skills that require your battalions to be damaged, yet you obviously don't want them fleeing. So sticking a bit of extra defense on them would help.

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I guess I can see a use for it on Batallion Wrath (non-Vantage) or Batallion Desperation builds. Still, I don't know how viable the former even are, and the latter don't want to be taking hits in the first place. Moreover, most of your other skill slots on either build should go to increasing hit/damage/crit (Weapon crit +10, Weaponfaire, Hit +20, Weapon Prowess); or, on Wrath, preventing getting hit in the first place (Evasive Stance, Weapon Avoid +20, Weapon Prowess, Weaponbreaker).

I frankly don't see enough room for Defensive Tactics, even on those builds where it could conceivably have some use. In normal gameplay, when you can replenish batallions before any map, its usefulness is next-to-nil. I'm saying no to Defensive Tactics.

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On 2/13/2020 at 10:29 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

To add insult to injury the one character most likely to want to do something with swords (Catherine, who joins with an A) can't use go Hero because apparently FE3H's director hates Echidna, or something.

To be frank, even if she could, I’d still go Assassin instead.

Anyway, I say yes to Defensive Tactics. It makes for a good filler skill, at least.

Nominate Black Magic Crit +10.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Round 20 are the Talisman Shield and Hexlock shield, the first of which was suggested by @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Here is the strawpoll link, and here are some notes. Let me know if I missed some acquisition methods.

  • The Talisman Shield provides 1 Def and 3 Res at 4 Weight. The Hexlock Shield provides 2 Def and 4 Res at 5 Weight
    • the only other shield in the game that provides extra resistance is the Aegis shield, which is available pre-time skip through Felix's paralogue and will cause recoil damage to any unit who lacks a crest.
      • And it's notable that several units renowned for their tankiness lack crests, such as Dedue, Raphael, and Alois.
  • The acquisition of the Talisman shield is unique only to Dedue's paralogue, which is only available starting in chapter 6 of the Blue Lions route
  • There are three Hexlock shields available in any route
    • The first is available in chapter 13. For Crimson Flower, it is dropped by Judith and is thus unmissable due to the objective
    • For non CF routes, it is dropped by an assassin in Chapter 13
    • Another is dropped from the bishop on the left side of Marianne's paralogue.
    • Another is buyable from Anna's shop for 3000G, which appears in chapter 15.
  • Generic shields are typically equipped by units who already can't avoid doubles and just want to reduce the damage taken per round. While providing resistance is unique, there aren't a lot of sources of magic damage throughout the game. I think the only chapters in which magic attackers comprise at least 50% of the enemies are the Flayn paralogue and Silver Snow's final chapter, so stacking physical defense tends to give the unit more mileage out of their equipment slot.

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That's a no from me. Chance are if you're slow enough to use a shield, you're not going to suddenly survive mages easily from 3 or 4 extra res. Shields in general are too heavy for me this game. Only times I'd ever use them is Aegis on Felix, Ochain shield on Seteth (combined with spear of assal he gets 60% health back every turn. My tank.) and varying shields on Byleth when I needed more defenses (Convoy cheese is nice). These ones do nothing for me and I'd never even consider using them 

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The problem with Res-boosting shields is that the high Def units I'd like to throw them on are very slow and very poor Res. And, I'm probably going to give said characters a Def-boosting Battalion to get ever closer to *tink* status. 

So, whats 3-4 Res going to really do for a mountain of Def vs. mages? At most it lets them survive one extra hit with a few drops of HP. Not enough for me. A Def-oriented shield on the other hand can bring me closer to *tink*, which is a whole lot more meaningful.

 

Maybe I can mix-tank with a Res shield on a less Def-heavy unit with Res battalion, but I've never put that much thought into it. But if a unit has viable Spd, I don't want to ruin their doubling chances with another -4/5 AS, even temporarily.

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In terms of the generic tank units no, Dedue and other units in FK will be doubled by mages and their res is pitiful anyway. 3 extra res will almost never help them and i would rather have a silver shield or seiros shield to boost up their prt even more to make them take less and less damage. QR does a better job against mages than these shields anyway..

 

However to the overall question i would have to say yes. Often the units with the highest Resistance stats are mages. These units have basically nothing in their inventories apart from 1 or 2 staves and a vulnery. With this in mind there is no reason for the Shield to sit in the convoy over being potentially used in certain situations. These situations are when you may want to potentially Res Tank. You can lure in enemy mages with them, which are a bit harder to avoid tank since they ignore terrain. One of the things i did with this was drain an enemies meteor tome with it. I had a Linhardt with 32 Res as a Bishop, adding on his Battalion boosts he got 40,  I equipped him with the shield and he was able to take 6 damage from the hit. Of course situations like these are very situational, and the shield could easily be seen as Overkill since in the situation i mentioned and potentially others the shield wasn't needed and just made him take less damage. But considering mages don't have anything to fill their inventories unless they spam Frozen Lance/Hexblade, I don't really see why you shouldn't do it.

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I would say no, hexlock just doesnt seem all that amazing to keep even for mages though it'd probably have some niche uses there.

 

I just wanted to say that there is one more Hexlock Shield available - if you save all of the NPCs in Hilda's Paralogue, you get one alongside the Large Bullion.

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