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Glennstavos

Would you use this underachieving thing? (FE TH) Round 23: Recovery Roar

Would you use this weird thing?  

105 members have voted

  1. 1. Round 1: Holy Knight?

    • Yeah, I can imagine a scenario where I make a Holy Knight.
      71
    • No, I can't see an application or justification for Holy Knight over other classes
      34
  2. 2. Round 2: Battalion Renewal?

    • Yeah, I think I could see myself using this.
      9
    • No, I wouldn't waste an ability slot on this source of healing.
      70


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1 minute ago, Glennstavos said:

Yeah but the brigand will remain in range to get healed and not burn a physic. This is a point of the game where we have mages and later priests, but not bishops. Canto is only of value to the cav if he can slip out of enemy range entirely or into a nearby forest after combat and entering a forest tile is 3 move cost for them. Choosing to move forward into the arms of the next three enemies will just get you killed. If enemy strength were lower, like in the GBA games, I'd agree with you on always wanting to move forward.

The first sentence seems like a bizarre concern. Our brigand/cavalier may not even need healing, and if s/he does, you can always heal them before they move anyway.

Yes, you can come up with cases where canto won't be useful, but there are many where it will be.

When moving forward, obviously you won't move into the range of three enemies who will get you killed; we aren't stupid and we even have aggro lines to look at. But maybe you will move into one of their ranges to bait that one. Or you'll just move forward so you won't be considerably behind the rest of your squad next turn.

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Just now, Dark Holy Elf said:

The first sentence seems like a bizarre concern. Our brigand/cavalier may not even need healing, and if s/he does, you can always heal them before they move anyway.

Now you've got me confused. A cavalier can't attack somebody, get healed, then continue their movement. It's not possible.

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You have the healer act before them in the round.

Unless you were talking exclusively about healing from the damage they took from the counter? I guess that's fair, but that only comes up if our cavalier is doubling and needs both hits of the double to kill. (And even then, you still have 5*(number of Physic users) uses. I would argue that an optimized team should use at least two, precisely because of the extra tactical freedom it offers.)

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4 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Unless you were talking exclusively about healing from the damage they took from the counter? I guess that's fair, but that only comes up if our cavalier is doubling and needs both hits of the double to kill. (And even then, you still have 5*(number of Physic users) uses. I would argue that an optimized team should use at least two, precisely because of the extra tactical freedom it offers.)

Yes, I'm referring to the exact scenario you brought up and I picked out for my qoute. A cavalier killing an enemy and moving forward to bait the next. And it's a bold assumption to suggest your cavalier nails the double. Lances are heavy, tempest lance is strong. Enemy AS is better than yours in class by class comparisons. And if it is an enemy that's so weak they die in a single, non tempest lance hit, you don't need a cavalier. Your mages and archers can typically move their full movement range forward and pick up that snipe.

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1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

Imo cavaliers are balanced this game and overpowered i  every other game. It's just that flers are even more op than usual. You should pay the price for an higher movement considering how strong it is. 

Even Radiant Dawn, where most of the cavalry units weren't that great (about the only one that's particularly good is Titania)?

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2 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Yes, I'm referring to the exact scenario you brought up and I picked out for my qoute. A cavalier killing an enemy and moving forward to bait the next. And it's a bold assumption to suggest your cavalier nails the double. Lances are heavy, tempest lance is strong. Enemy AS is better than yours in class by class comparisons. And if it is an enemy that's so weak they die in a single, non tempest lance hit, you don't need a cavalier. Your mages and archers can typically move their full movement range forward and pick up that snipe.

I wasn't assuming the cavalier doubles; you were. I was assuming a situation where your unit was killing an enemy. If you kill a unit, then either you don't trigger a counter (because you killed with a single attack or combat art), or you do because you are doubling them (or, to be fair, there's also the corner case where the enemy has Vantage).

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13 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I wasn't assuming the cavalier doubles; you were. 

 

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You have the healer act before them in the round.

Unless you were talking exclusively about healing from the damage they took from the counter? I guess that's fair, but that only comes up if our cavalier is doubling and needs both hits of the double to kill. 

Please just stop.

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Let's back up a moment.

This started with "A cavalier can kill an enemy which is right beside them and keep moving forward", right? We're talking about kills.

You protested that this makes it harder to heal them; I was initially confused but eventually figured out you were talking about them taking a counter from this action. A counter on a killing action, which is something that can only occur if your cavalier doubles. Because if your cavalier isn't doubling but is killing, they aren't being countered. Right?

If I've made a mistake somewhere then elaborate on what the heck you meant.

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20 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If I've made a mistake somewhere then elaborate on what the heck you meant.

Your mistake is accusing me of things I never said and continuing to post after I asked you to stop. Which I am still asking you to do with this post, by the way. There's also nothing left to add, as I already pointed out that if a cavalier can earn a kill in one hit and move up, your mages and archers could do the same as they use their full movement and go for the last hit - even at 1 range. The cavalier accomplishes nothing unique, since if he was going to bait the next enemy, he'd do it regardless of if he were attacking or not. And we were never talking just about 1 hit kills since this is the linear order of the conversation:

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Canto also allows a character to attack an enemy or use a positioning combat art (Reposition etc.) in a location that would leave a non-canto unit open to fatal damage on the following enemy phase, then retreat to safety.

 

4 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

Yeah but the brigand will remain in range to get healed and not burn a physic. This is a point of the game where we have mages and later priests, but not bishops. Canto is only of value to the cav if he can slip out of enemy range entirely or into a nearby forest after combat and entering a forest tile is 3 move cost for them.

Counterattacks were implied from the start. One last time: please stop. This is getting old.

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In one last attempt to clarify my own words and not start anything new: I quoted the exact claim I made (see my previous post) where I explicitly used the word "kills", which implies no counterattacks.

That said I am willing to stop if you are, since this is a tangent within a tangent. The actual point was the value of canto and movement in general, and I'm certainly willing to just agree to disagree if you are.

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Yeah I agree with most of what's been said so far. Cavalier is a great skill but Desperation is such a bad skill, especially for cav but even for anyone else. The biggest problem for me is even if this skill was useful and you didn't have an infinite amount of ways to kill/double/keep everyone on full health so they don't die, to make use of this skill. I still wouldn't equip it because I'd rather have anything else. Weapon prowesses, speed +2, weight -5, move +1, alert stance, fiendish/death/darting blow, quick riposte, every breaker skill, HP + 5, rallies, hit +20.......I could go on. 

 

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19 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Ok i missed that game. 

My point is, FE is no stranger to having cavalry units not being amazing. The only games where I would say cavalry really were that damn good were Genealogy of the Holy War (which, thanks to the maps, heavily favoured cavalry to the point it is often called Horse Emblem), Binding Blade (same as Genealogy), and Path of Radiance (which gave Paladins one of the best Occult skills, and the ability to choose weapons for upon promoting for the unpromoted cavalry units).

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3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

My point is, FE is no stranger to having cavalry units not being amazing. The only games where I would say cavalry really were that damn good were Genealogy of the Holy War (which, thanks to the maps, heavily favoured cavalry to the point it is often called Horse Emblem), Binding Blade (same as Genealogy), and Path of Radiance (which gave Paladins one of the best Occult skills, and the ability to choose weapons for upon promoting for the unpromoted cavalry units).

FE12 and RD heavily favor cavalry too.

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7 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

FE12 and RD heavily favor cavalry too.

I fail to see how RD favored cavalry, because most of them weren't really fantastic (they don't get their second weapon until third tier, and even then, they don't get a choice in the matter, and second, some terrain just stops them outright, most notably ledges. They also lose movement in most indoors maps, too. What's more, they're stuck with some of the lowest speed caps in the game; most of them cannot hope to double the final bosses, and the two exceptions - Fiona and Astrid - will require a LOT of work to get there, especially the former).

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I said yes to Desperation. I haven't used it a ton, but I do see cases where it would be useful - say, one-rounding an enemy armor knight with a Mace (without fear of being countered), or getting four consecutive gauntlet strikes on a monster, so its health bar goes all the way down. The HP setup can be tricky, so it's only good for units you expect to take damage, and who can double at least some enemies. And I'll concede, it would probably be stronger in a game with neither combat arts nor gambits. Still, I think it does just enough, on the right unit, to be worth using.

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5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I fail to see how RD favored cavalry, because most of them weren't really fantastic (they don't get their second weapon until third tier, and even then, they don't get a choice in the matter, and second, some terrain just stops them outright, most notably ledges. They also lose movement in most indoors maps, too. What's more, they're stuck with some of the lowest speed caps in the game; most of them cannot hope to double the final bosses, and the two exceptions - Fiona and Astrid - will require a LOT of work to get there, especially the former).

I spoke out my ass for that. Sorry for the brain fart. RD did nerf cavalry hard.

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30 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I fail to see how RD favored cavalry, because most of them weren't really fantastic (they don't get their second weapon until third tier, and even then, they don't get a choice in the matter, and second, some terrain just stops them outright, most notably ledges. They also lose movement in most indoors maps, too. What's more, they're stuck with some of the lowest speed caps in the game; most of them cannot hope to double the final bosses, and the two exceptions - Fiona and Astrid - will require a LOT of work to get there, especially the former).

Cavalry is pretty bad in RD, there are only like two cavs worth using, Titania due to her high stats and joining level, and Oscar due to his avalibility, and both are bad tower candidates that are outclassed by other units due to their caps.

Back on topic for Desperation, i still think it isn’t great since it takes away class exp that could be going to brigand/archer etc. But battalion Desperation can be pretty neat, it’s accessible very early on (Ferdinand gets it at C) and battalions at that stage have low endurance so it’s rather easy to keep the battalions low, and they wont get hit as much since Desperation will avoid counters. Also the unit doesn’t need to be at the risk of running around on half health.

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Round 6 was suggested first by @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate, it's Edelgard's unique classes: Armored Lord and Emperor. Here is the strawpoll link, and here are some notes:

  • Armored Lord and Emperor are classes unique to Edelgard, and are obtained at chapters 13 and 16 respectively
    • Unlike the other Lord's unique classes, Edelgard is never forced to use Armored Lord in Chapter 13, as there is battle preps before the fight. 
  • The class masteries are Pomp & Circumstance and Flickering Flower. The first is a boost of +4 to Luck and Charm, the other is a combat art with pretty great stats and reduces the target's move to 0 for a turn. However, you must remain in the Emperor class to use this combat art.
    • It's also worth mention that CF, the only route in which you may use these classes, only allows you two in-game months to work on Emperor's mastery. Though since it awards a combat art you'll still be able to unlock and use it on the final chapter without needing to keep a combat art slot open. These classes require the same 200 class experience as any master class. 
  • Both classes have only 5 move. Compared to Fortress Knight's stat boosts, Armored Lord has +3 speed and -5 defense, and +2 charm. Emperor has +3 HP, +2 speed, and -2 defense, +1 luck, and +2 charm. 
  • Armored Lord and Emperor's class skills are Charm and Axefaire. Charm passively increases the damage of adjacent allies by 3.
    • Fortress Knight has weight -5 in place of Charm.
  • Both classes provide a bonus 3 points to authority and armor ranks in each round of combat.
    • Classes that provide authority boosts are very rare - exclusive to Byleth and the Lords in fact. But one could argue Edelgard's authority could easily be as high as B by chapter 13 if the player wants some of the best batallion options. Her later gains by raising authority rank, such as Batallion renewal at A rank and Rally Charm at S rank are less than ideal to push for.
    • the bonus to armor may be more valuable if you're looking to pick up equippable Weight -5 in a reasonable amount of time.
  • And finally, the big elephant in the room is "why not make her a flier". Not only would wyvern rider/lord be great alternatives in their own right, many players comment that her unique relic's combat art is best combined with a class that has high move. And canto obviously doesn't hurt either.

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On 1/15/2020 at 9:40 AM, Flere210 said:

Again, it's 1 point on average if you stay cavalier the full 10 levels. It's practically one more carrot worst case scenario. And may be nothing on certain units because if your speed is low it will be bumped up on promotion anyway. 

If you're playing on Maddening, odds are you're boned if you're in need of promotion to fix your speed... Not that it would be much help since Advanced classes only have 14 base speed.

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I would, if only because I'm lazy and don't give a rat's ass about the "Wyvern Lord master race" crap this forum tends to preach.

Nominate Diamond Axe and Wild Abandon.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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On Edelgard's personal classes, I would never use Emperor. 5 Move is bad. Armored Lord and Emperor have -3 and -4 Speed modifiers respectively with no Strength modifiers. I honestly cannot think of a single relevant upside for Emperor over Wyvern Lord.

 

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Emperor certainly looks better than Fortress Knight side-by-side (having 5 move instead of 4 is pretty cool as it turns out), so the fact that I react to Emperor with a definite no says something about the latter class.

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