New Heroes: Heirs of Light

[XRay]

4 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Nah, but she shouldn't have any problem making a name for herself at the top of the already crowded sword infantry pool.

She does have a problem making a name for herself though. If they want to make a notable sword unit, they have to give it something more bonkers than a Blade effect, like Altina's Distant Counter-Meisterswords.

Lunar Arc and Meister are currently the only two single effects that can rival Blade in my opinion. For everything else, you need to pair 2 or more effects together, and I think the best combo that rivals Blade effect is Slaying-Special Spiral from Ares's Mystletainn.

4 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

She can hit 85 damage with +spd, DC, vantage, and brazen atk/spd seal

That is really low for Counter-Vantage and I do not think that is very viable in my opinion, and that is the minimum threshold for a +0+0 unit. She hits 86 Atk at max investment (39AtkAsset+4merge+1Flower+2Summoner+20Mt+7Brazen+6bonus+7Smoke), and she only has 79 Atk if you do not factor in Def Smoke. Most blade mages can do at least guaranteed 85 Atk at +0+0 with no Summoner Support before factoring in Res Smoke.

Neutral Laevatein at +0+0 hits 93 Atk (37Atk+19Mt+24Blade+7Brazen+6bonus).

4 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

95 with wrath swapped in for vantage.

For one shotting things on Player Phase, Laevatein still wins out in most cases.

Laevatein at max investment hits 111 Atk (40Atk+4merge+2Flower+19Mt+24Blade+9Brazen+0SpecialSpiral+7Brazen+6bonus) without Summoner Support nor Smoke.

Larcei at max investment hits 98 Atk (39Atk+4merge+1Flower+2Summoner+20Mt+9Brazen+10Wrath+7Brazen+6bonus+7Smoke) with everything going in its favor.

Even if you factor in Lull Atk/Spd, Laevatein still hits 90 (111Atk-12Blade-6bonus-3Lull) while Larcei hits 89 (98Atk-6bonus-3Lull). Dull Close on the enemy would allow Larcei to perform better, but I do not see that very often compared to Lull Atk/Spd.

Even with a standard Player Phase build, while Larcei is much faster, anything too fast for Laevatein to double would most likely die in one shot. And not everything that can be killed in two shot by Laevatein can be killed in two shots by Larcei.

Edited January 13, 2020 by XRay

[bottlegnomes]

13 hours ago, XRay said:

I think the best combo that rivals Blade effect is Slaying-Special Spiral from Ares's Mystletainn.

Ares only hits 82 damage with DC + vantange and the same criteria I used for Larcei. Granted, he does have the benefit of having that active for every combat after it gets revved up. He can run an AoE, but that requires sacking his seal slot and DC and is even more dependent on the enemy unit's defense since each point of defense works out to 1.5 points of damage.

 

13 hours ago, XRay said:

That is really low for Counter-Vantage and I do not think that is very viable in my opinion, and that is the minimum threshold for a +0+0 unit. She hits 86 Atk at max investment (39AtkAsset+4merge+1Flower+2Summoner+20Mt+7Brazen+6bonus+7Smoke), and she only has 79 Atk if you do not factor in Def Smoke. Most blade mages can do at least guaranteed 85 Atk at +0+0 with no Summoner Support before factoring in Res Smoke.

You're dropping the damage from her special. True, it's not guaranteed to be active if you don't run wrath, but that adds another 22 damage bringing the total to 108 with 1 cooldown.

39 attack + 4 merge + 1 flower + 2 summoner + 16 weapon + 4 weapon effect + 7 brazen + 6 bonus + 7 smoke + (40 + 4we + 7bz + 6bo) * 0.4 special

 

13 hours ago, XRay said:

Laevatein at max investment hits 111 Atk (40Atk+4merge+2Flower+19Mt+24Blade+9Brazen+0SpecialSpiral+7Brazen+6bonus) without Summoner Support nor Smoke.

Larcei at max investment hits 98 Atk (39Atk+4merge+1Flower+2Summoner+20Mt+9Brazen+10Wrath+7Brazen+6bonus+7Smoke) with everything going in its favor.

Again, you're dropping the actual special's damage. That brings her up to 131 which is guaranteed to be active at the start of every turn after she takes the required damage.

39 attack + 4 merge + 1 flower + 2 summoner + 16 weapon + 4 weapon effect + 7 brazen + 9 brazen + 6 bonus + 7 smoke + (40 + 4we + 7bz + 10bz + 6bo) * 0.4 special + 10 wrath.

Laev and Altina do have the benefit of not having a ramp up phase and being able to act more than once a turn, but Larcei does match or outpace their damage once she gets going. If you wanted, you could also run SS instead of wrath and have 121 ready after every combat except the first; lack of SS and smoke would drop it down to 112.

I'm not saying Larcei's weapon by itself is especially impressive. It's more her special that is and the weapon is decent and makes getting her special off even easier. Same reason Ayra pretty much always runs a Slaying Edge or Wo Dao/SS. Laev doesn't have as easy a time capitalizing on extra special damage. Altina does, but has lower overall attack 42 + 10 + 4 + 1 + 2 + 7 + 9 + 6 + 7 = 88. Again, not saying she's broken, but she's not hurting for damage output courtesy of her special and weapon in conjunction.

Edited January 13, 2020 by bottlegnomes

[XRay]

1 minute ago, bottlegnomes said:

Ares only hits 82 damage with DC + vantange and the same criteria I used for Larcei. Granted, he does have the benefit of having that active for every combat after it gets revved up. He can run an AoE, but that requires sacking his seal slot and DC and is even more dependent on the enemy unit's defense since each point of defense works out to 1.5 points of damage.

Distant Counter-Vantage Ares +0+0 +Atk hits 91 Atk factoring in buffs, just as I have factored in buffs for Larcei and Laevatein.

Atk = 91 = 39Atk+16Mt+7Brazen+6Bonus+23Bonfire

Bonfire = 23 = 0.5*(33Def+7Brazen+6Bonus)

10 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

You're dropping the damage from her special. True, it's not guaranteed to be active if you don't run wrath, but that adds another 22 damage bringing the total to 108 with 1 cooldown.

39 attack + 4 merge + 1 flower + 2 summoner + 16 weapon + 4 weapon effect + 7 brazen + 6 bonus + 7 smoke + (40 + 4we + 7bz + 6bo) * 0.4 special

That section focuses solely on Counter-Vantage, so I do not factor in Specials outside of Ares since he is the primary one who can spam it. 91 guaranteed Atk is still higher 86 Atk, and that is Ares without any merges, Flowers, Summoner Support, nor Def Smoke.

Counter-Vantage without Counter or Vantage is not Counter-Vantage, these two skills are pretty much mandatory. B slot Wrath has no place in that build unless another slot takes up Vantage, and the only Counter-Vantage units with a free B slot are Phina and Kronya. Even then, B slot Wrath is still horrible in my opinion because the unit cannot spam Specials during every round of combat, unlike Special Spiral. Consistency is crucial in Aether Raids cause you are never completely certain which order the enemy will attack you, and even if you can predict the order correctly, trying to make sure your Counter-Vantage unit save up the Special against the right enemy is practically impossible.

11 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Again, you're dropping the actual special's damage. That brings her up to 131 which is guaranteed to be active at the start of every turn after she takes the required damage.

I forgot to run a Special in this scenario and I just realized I made a math error for Larcei.

14 hours ago, XRay said:

Larcei at max investment hits 98 Atk (39Atk+4merge+1Flower+2Summoner+20Mt+9Brazen+10Wrath+7Brazen+6bonus+7Smoke) with everything going in its favor.

Larcei should be hitting 105 Atk (I probably forgot the Smoke at the end). Regnal Astra deals 29 damage. That totals 134 Atk for Larcei, so I guess it is actually pretty good. Regnal Astra really picks up the slack in Atk.
0.4*74Spd; 40Spd + 4merge + 1Flower + 2Summoner + 4Weapon + 10Brazen + 7Brazen + 6Bonus

For Laevatein, if we factor in Moonbow against a 50 Def opponent, that comes out to 15 Atk. If we factor in Smoke, Laevatein will just hit 133 Atk (111+15+7Smoke), so I guess they are comparable in terms of Player Phase builds.

[bottlegnomes]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

Distant Counter-Vantage Ares +0+0 +Atk hits 91 Atk factoring in buffs, just as I have factored in buffs for Larcei and Laevatein.

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

the same criteria I used for Larcei.

I used, not you used. You need to drop the buff or add 6 to the numbers I posted originally. I know I'm being pedantic about mixing comparisons, but just wanted to clarify.

That said, guaranteed specials is fair. DC/Vantage isn't much good on Larcei until they release a vantage seal or a special spiral seal. But then again, those would help out a lot of people and arguably more than her.

 

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Counter-Vantage without Counter or Vantage is not Counter-Vantage, these two skills are pretty much mandatory. B slot Wrath has no place in that build unless another slot takes up Vantage, and the only Counter-Vantage units with a free B slot are Phina and Kronya. Even then, B slot Wrath is still horrible in my opinion because the unit cannot spam Specials during every round of combat, unlike Special Spiral. Consistency is crucial in Aether Raids cause you are never completely certain which order the enemy will attack you, and even if you can predict the order correctly, trying to make sure your Counter-Vantage unit save up the Special against the right enemy is practically impossible.

As said, that's fair. Larcei doesn't really run a DC/Vantage set well. She could do DC/Wrath, which used to be a common Ayra set to allow her to kill someone on EP turn 1 while only taking 1 hit and kickstart the special/wrath cycle, but that does drop her damage by like 11 points.

 

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

I forgot to run a Special in this scenario and I just realized I made a math error for Larcei.

Larcei should be hitting 105 Atk (I probably forgot the Smoke at the end). Regnal Astra deals 29 damage. That totals 134 Atk for Larcei, so I guess it is actually pretty good. Regnal Astra really picks up the slack in Atk.
0.4*74Spd; 40Spd + 4merge + 1Flower + 2Summoner + 4Weapon + 10Brazen + 7Brazen + 6Bonus

For Laevatein, if we factor in Moonbow against a 50 Def opponent, that comes out to 15 Atk. If we factor in Smoke, Laevatein will just hit 133 Atk (111+15+7Smoke), so I guess they are comparable in terms of Player Phase builds.

That's what I was getting at in my original post. I'm totally in agreement that Larcei's weapon isn't especially impressive by itself, but it plays into her special the same way slaying edge + wrath worked to make Ayra such a dominant force for so long. Basically it's a 22 mt slaying edge.

[Hilda]

14 hours ago, XRay said:

She does have a problem making a name for herself though. If they want to make a notable sword unit, they have to give it something more bonkers than a Blade effect, like Altina's Distant Counter-Meisterswords.

Lunar Arc and Meister are currently the only two single effects that can rival Blade in my opinion. For everything else, you need to pair 2 or more effects together, and I think the best combo that rivals Blade effect is Slaying-Special Spiral from Ares's Mystletainn.

That is really low for Counter-Vantage and I do not think that is very viable in my opinion, and that is the minimum threshold for a +0+0 unit. She hits 86 Atk at max investment (39AtkAsset+4merge+1Flower+2Summoner+20Mt+7Brazen+6bonus+7Smoke), and she only has 79 Atk if you do not factor in Def Smoke. Most blade mages can do at least guaranteed 85 Atk at +0+0 with no Summoner Support before factoring in Res Smoke.

Neutral Laevatein at +0+0 hits 93 Atk (37Atk+19Mt+24Blade+7Brazen+6bonus).

For one shotting things on Player Phase, Laevatein still wins out in most cases.

Laevatein at max investment hits 111 Atk (40Atk+4merge+2Flower+19Mt+24Blade+9Brazen+0SpecialSpiral+7Brazen+6bonus) without Summoner Support nor Smoke.

Larcei at max investment hits 98 Atk (39Atk+4merge+1Flower+2Summoner+20Mt+9Brazen+10Wrath+7Brazen+6bonus+7Smoke) with everything going in its favor.

Even if you factor in Lull Atk/Spd, Laevatein still hits 90 (111Atk-12Blade-6bonus-3Lull) while Larcei hits 89 (98Atk-6bonus-3Lull). Dull Close on the enemy would allow Larcei to perform better, but I do not see that very often compared to Lull Atk/Spd.

Even with a standard Player Phase build, while Larcei is much faster, anything too fast for Laevatein to double would most likely die in one shot. And not everything that can be killed in two shot by Laevatein can be killed in two shots by Larcei.

It all boils down how good you can dodge Panic with Laevatein. Which is not impossible but not really easy either in AR.

[XRay]

13 minutes ago, Hilda said:

It all boils down how good you can dodge Panic with Laevatein. Which is not impossible but not really easy either in AR.

I guess it depends on the Dancer/Singer you are using. I have VS!Azura so Aversa and Sudden Panic is never really an issue, but I can imagine players running budget Dancers/Singers having more issue since budget Dancers/Singers are all infantry and that is not exactly easy to use Tactics with. If you run two infantry Dancers/Singers, that means you shut yourself off from a lot of options as infantry has the most variety in the game.

14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

That's what I was getting at in my original post. I'm totally in agreement that Larcei's weapon isn't especially impressive by itself, but it plays into her special the same way slaying edge + wrath worked to make Ayra such a dominant force for so long. Basically it's a 22 mt slaying edge.

Yeah. It seems to me that they basically moved the damage output of a Blade Weapon to the Special slot.

Edited January 14, 2020 by XRay

[Hilda]

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

I guess it depends on the Dancer/Singer you are using. I have VS!Azura so Aversa and Sudden Panic is never really an issue, but I can imagine players running budget Dancers/Singers having more issue since budget Dancers/Singers are all infantry and that is not exactly easy to use Tactics with. If you run two infantry Dancers/Singers, that means you shut yourself off from a lot of options as infantry has the most variety in the game.

Yeah. It seems to me that they basically moved the damage output of a Blade Weapon to the Special slot.

i meant more in the term of panic stave healers, panic manor and panic smoke. Since we were talking about Counter Vantage.

[XRay]

Just now, Hilda said:

i meant more in the term of panic stave healers, panic manor and panic smoke. Since we were talking about Counter Vantage.

In that case, the most trouble would probably be Panic staff users in my opinion since they also function as Firesweepers.

Panic Smoke does not seem to be that common outside of on Thrasir.

Panic Manor can be an issue too, but placing them effectively on a defense team can be more challenging since it you if put it too far back, it might not reach the offensive unit, but if you put it too far forward, it becomes easy to snipe.