Butler vs great master

[mangasdeouf]

Hi,

I typed the base stats from the main site for you to see things clearly:

Great master: 19 hp 8 str 6 mag 6 skl 8 spd 5 lck 6 def 7 res 65 total

Butler/maid: 18 hp 4 str 5 mag 9 skl 8 spd 4 lck 5 def 4 res 57 total

Game balance? is that what butlers/maids get for being able to use shuriken? There are 8 base stats points of difference between 2 promoted classes while both are hybrid physical weapon/staff and great master has early access to a passive healing skill while butler/maid has to heal someone (so not attacking for that turn) to get heal back from the same level skill. Shuriken and daggers already hit like wet noodles. Then why this much difference in stats and why is great master as fast as butler while hitting way harder with more powerful weapons and being much bulkier, with countermagic as an anti magic skill vs tomebreaker that doesn't even break magic weapons (while countermagic counters so many weapon types) for what lv 35 skills are worth.

I was wondering if I'd switch my Jakob to great master, but now I don't doubt anymore. Great master spits even more on butlers by having better growth rates (+10% hp, +5% str, +5% def) while keeping the same spd growth and loosing only to magic (5%) and skill (10%) (it means even total growths are 5% higher than butler).

Why even create classes if there's absolutely no intent to balance them in the first place? I don't know, filler hurts a lot I think. Like how blacksmith and master of arms are replicates of hero with slightly different (should I say slightly worse?) stat/growth spread and different weapons (at least master of arms gets full WTC, which isn't blacksmith's case).

[eclipse]

So, uh, how does Jakob get to Great Master on Conquest?  And why would you do that to Corrin?

[Flere210]

1)  daggers are a better weapon type

2) maid is the class your Jeigan start in. Felicia and Jakob would be way too good starting whit Great master stats

3)great master is a melee focussed class, it need strenght and defense to be useful. Maid is a ranged support class, even whit litle strenght and defense it is usefull to chip and debuff. 

 

Base stats and growths are a good way to compare classes only when those classes have the same job. Outside of healing(wich maid does better) their roles are completely different.

[mangasdeouf]

1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

1)  daggers are a better weapon type

2) maid is the class your Jeigan start in. Felicia and Jakob would be way too good starting whit Great master stats

3)great master is a melee focussed class, it need strenght and defense to be useful. Maid is a ranged support class, even whit litle strenght and defense it is usefull to chip and debuff. 

 

Base stats and growths are a good way to compare classes only when those classes have the same job. Outside of healing(wich maid does better) their roles are completely different.

1) Daggers are more useful, not better (-2 might on iron isn't better and daggers don't give +2 speed like shuriken do, even silver dagger only has 10 MT vs 14 for silver lance, it matters when ennemies have 15-20 def and dagger might isn't any close to deal even 1 damage, while any physical class can at least deal 2 damage to a 15 def ennemy without any weapon triangle advantage/disadvantage and without counting b rank +2 might wchich would bring it to 4 damage, this is with 3 strength which is sky knight's base strength).

Since the early chapters give you either units who won't double before 10 chapters (Silas, Effie, Arthur if they ever get speed blessed), or units who double for garbage damage (Jakob, Niles) or simply units who start so bad they barely serve any purpose before 3+ level ups (Odin, sadly Mozu too even if she can catch up way faster than anyone else it's true that she comes from the bottom base stats-wise and screw D-rank javelins I hate the guy who came up with that stupid idea, they already can't double and get you doubled and they need to rank up before even being usable). The problem with daggers is that they cost a turn to barely tickle the ennemy and even with the debuff most of your units can't ORKO the weakened ennemy.

2) Even Jaegen starts with better stats and stays better than his competition for a few levels. Felicia starts weaker than anyone but Odin and doesn't become better before close to mid game when you get access to the fire shuriken. Jakob in his base class is like Kaze with a little more strength and a lot less speed, alongside shuriken being better than daggers for their bonus that doesn't make sense (ennemy ninjas are sometimes hard to OHKO and you're not doubling them before very very very long, and once they promote bye bye doubling). If they had 1 or 2 more strength I wouldn't mind (even the mini boss Flora in CQ hard chapter 8 is ridiculously weak with a steel dagger that also slows her to add to the comedy). Or if steel daggers only dropped speed by 1 at least so they would be worth using at all.

3) Yet they all take a deployment slot. A greatmaster will heal your frontliners and survive an ennemy phase while damaging the ennemies who attack it. A butler only gets to tickle the ennemy and remove 2-3 def/res and in most cases magic instead of strength (great idea to debuff magic on iron, so your units who aren't fast enough to double with steel will only attack once to debuff strengh once they rach C rank), which is a lot less useful for your army than it is for the 3x more numerous ennemy army with better stats in many cases than your units of the same class (knights with defense for example, unlike Effie who hits hard but tanks barely better with def +2 than Silas and who is equalled by VOF Silas or not far from it, while being easily doubled by everything until she decides to proc speed in her coinflip level ups, alongside lacking HP to sustain hits).

It means that you have a little more useful healer than a base troubadour but you must choose what action it takes, weakening or healing, and you still have to hide it from the bad guys who wanna hurt it. It's like having a healer with a weapon he's rarely gonna use unless it's Effie or Charlotte maid (or Camilla).

 

It's sad, the concept is good but the application is poor. We need a heir of FE Fates that improves everything from this game into the next one to finally have a good gameplay, on par with Radiant Dawn's multiple mechanics (and with nerfed movement for mounts indoors because mounts Emblem has been lasting from the first FE until now with only RD nerfing poneys and instead making one wyvern solo most of the game, which isn't really betterin ters of balance) (and a good story but that's another thing).

[Dandy Druid]

I mean, the people that will be your great masters, butlers, and maid will primarily fulfill a healing role. The units in these classes are originally support units. Thus, these classes should be focused on support, no? It's not like Hoshido Noble where a combat unit got some utility. If you're relying on a great master to deal damage instead of your swordmaster or any other combat wielding class, then the character you have as a great master should be a spear master instead to increase their damage output.

This is also why I prefer daggers for these kinds of units-- dagger is more of a utility weapon and it allows healers to debuff enemies when they're not healing.

Not saying you're wrong, because you do have some good points. I'm just saying that these are both support classes, and if the units in these classes are able to support effectively, than I have no complaints.

In your last comment, you mention how a great master will do better on an enemy phase. Yes, they probably will. But most healers shouldn't be exposed to enemies in the first place. Most healers are fragile, even with good level ups because on higher difficulty modes, enemies can hit quite hard. These classes aren't made for offense; they're just giving healers a means to fight back. 

Also, it really depends on what side you're playing on. In Birthright, butlers and maids aren't that useful since the ninjas can use shuriken effectively. Felicia would be better off class changing to Strategist or some other class while Jakob could also be something different. Meanwhile in Conquest, Butlers and Maids are a lot more useful because they may be the only hidden weapon users aside from Kaze you have access to.

[Shadow Mir]

On 1/7/2020 at 5:21 PM, mangasdeouf said:

1) Daggers are more useful, not better (-2 might on iron isn't better and daggers don't give +2 speed like shuriken do, even silver dagger only has 10 MT vs 14 for silver lance, it matters when ennemies have 15-20 def and dagger might isn't any close to deal even 1 damage, while any physical class can at least deal 2 damage to a 15 def ennemy without any weapon triangle advantage/disadvantage and without counting b rank +2 might wchich would bring it to 4 damage, this is with 3 strength which is sky knight's base strength).

Since the early chapters give you either units who won't double before 10 chapters (Silas, Effie, Arthur if they ever get speed blessed), or units who double for garbage damage (Jakob, Niles) or simply units who start so bad they barely serve any purpose before 3+ level ups (Odin, sadly Mozu too even if she can catch up way faster than anyone else it's true that she comes from the bottom base stats-wise and screw D-rank javelins I hate the guy who came up with that stupid idea, they already can't double and get you doubled and they need to rank up before even being usable). The problem with daggers is that they cost a turn to barely tickle the ennemy and even with the debuff most of your units can't ORKO the weakened ennemy.

Counterpoint: The Silver Dagger gives anyone unlucky enough to get hit by it -4 Speed/Def/Res. That's good enough to merit some use to me, considering the speed loss can cause an enemy that might have been able to avoid being doubled to get doubled instead. Not so much for the Silver Lance, which will have risks of further debuffs on enemy phase unless you trade it away and have the user equip something else.

On 1/7/2020 at 5:21 PM, mangasdeouf said:

3) Yet they all take a deployment slot. A greatmaster will heal your frontliners and survive an ennemy phase while damaging the ennemies who attack it. A butler only gets to tickle the ennemy and remove 2-3 def/res and in most cases magic instead of strength (great idea to debuff magic on iron, so your units who aren't fast enough to double with steel will only attack once to debuff strengh once they rach C rank), which is a lot less useful for your army than it is for the 3x more numerous ennemy army with better stats in many cases than your units of the same class (knights with defense for example, unlike Effie who hits hard but tanks barely better with def +2 than Silas and who is equalled by VOF Silas or not far from it, while being easily doubled by everything until she decides to proc speed in her coinflip level ups, alongside lacking HP to sustain hits).

It means that you have a little more useful healer than a base troubadour but you must choose what action it takes, weakening or healing, and you still have to hide it from the bad guys who wanna hurt it. It's like having a healer with a weapon he's rarely gonna use unless it's Effie or Charlotte maid (or Camilla).

The issue is, a Great Master getting attacked probably would take a lot of damage - it's not like they're THAT durable. What's more, both lances and daggers are good against tomes - but I'd give Maid/Butler the advantage on account of being able to counter them. Also, Vow of Friendship being active means Corrin's at half health or less - which is stupid considering that they're the goddamn main character and them dying means you get a date with the Game Over screen.

On 1/7/2020 at 5:21 PM, mangasdeouf said:

It's sad, the concept is good but the application is poor. We need a heir of FE Fates that improves everything from this game into the next one to finally have a good gameplay, on par with Radiant Dawn's multiple mechanics (and with nerfed movement for mounts indoors because mounts Emblem has been lasting from the first FE until now with only RD nerfing poneys and instead making one wyvern solo most of the game, which isn't really betterin ters of balance) (and a good story but that's another thing).

Hell no. Radiant Dawn mechanics should stay in a Radiant Dawn remake. Except biorhythm. Get that shit out. Also, Three Houses nerfed mounted classes. Which is putting aside... what the hell does this statement have to do with the topic at hand???

Edited January 8, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[Johnnie]

Great Master is basically there to take advantage of Azama's great physical growths. No one else will get there without a H/P/F Seal, and most of them would rather go Onmyoji instead.

Maid/Butler are there to give a different spin on the Jeigan concept, similar to Sothe in RD. 

[mangasdeouf]

On 1/8/2020 at 11:42 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Counterpoint: The Silver Dagger gives anyone unlucky enough to get hit by it -4 Speed/Def/Res. That's good enough to merit some use to me, considering the speed loss can cause an enemy that might have been able to avoid being doubled to get doubled instead. Not so much for the Silver Lance, which will have risks of further debuffs on enemy phase unless you trade it away and have the user equip something else.

The issue is, a Great Master getting attacked probably would take a lot of damage - it's not like they're THAT durable. What's more, both lances and daggers are good against tomes - but I'd give Maid/Butler the advantage on account of being able to counter them. Also, Vow of Friendship being active means Corrin's at half health or less - which is stupid considering that they're the goddamn main character and them dying means you get a date with the Game Over screen.

Hell no. Radiant Dawn mechanics should stay in a Radiant Dawn remake. Except biorhythm. Get that shit out. Also, Three Houses nerfed mounted classes. Which is putting aside... what the hell does this statement have to do with the topic at hand???

Actually great master as a class is on par with paladin stats-wise, while having more speed and magic and being good users of the bolt naginata, unlike paladins. Azama is an example of how good this class can be on a competent unit, but he's not the only one who can be good as a great master.

I think I know why great master is so overloaded stats-wise: it starts with GM...

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, mangasdeouf said:

Actually great master as a class is on par with paladin stats-wise, while having more speed and magic and being good users of the bolt naginata, unlike paladins. Azama is an example of how good this class can be on a competent unit, but he's not the only one who can be good as a great master.

I think I know why great master is so overloaded stats-wise: it starts with GM...

The problem is that Great Master is awkward to access - only four units can access it without P/F Seal shenanigans, and out of those, most of them are unavaiable on routes other than Birthright (to say nothing of all but one of them needing Heart Seals to get there, and also coming late). Anyway, out of the units who could access GM with seals, only one of them is decent (two if you're on Revelation - and that's putting aside the fact that Azama himself comes much later in Revelation, making it harder to access).

Edited January 12, 2020 by Shadow Mir